comment by Analog (U17200)
posted 7 hours, 19 minutes ago
A lot of bang average players being suggested here, we want to consolidate top 4 every season not be content with top 6/7
A major issue for me is our lack of creativity in Europe. It's embarrassing. A technical CM is needed, Tielemans is a risk worth taking imo
A back up for Rose is obvious, there's not many clear options tho
Not sure a Zaha or Redmond type player is needed in our system. Although having a good 1 v 1 player in the squad is handy, N'Koudou hasn't really been given the chance to be that player
A back up to Kane is also necessary, I'd personally go for Lacazette, he's scored goals in Ligue 1 for years now and he's not overly-coveted by the big clubs, he can also play wide if need be. We can't risk another Janssen level player
Lloris, Vorm, Pau
Walker, Trippier
Toby, Jan, Dier, Wimmer, Davies, CCV
Rose, ???
Dembele, Wanyama, Tielemans, Winks, Onomah
Eriksen, Dele, Lamela (please don't go 😭), Son
Kane, Lacazette, Janssen
Sell - Fazio, N'Jie, N'Koudou, Sissoko
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fantastic someone else who gets it
comment by <Hengy> (U9129)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Analog (U17200)
posted 7 hours, 19 minutes ago
A lot of bang average players being suggested here, we want to consolidate top 4 every season not be content with top 6/7
A major issue for me is our lack of creativity in Europe. It's embarrassing. A technical CM is needed, Tielemans is a risk worth taking imo
A back up for Rose is obvious, there's not many clear options tho
Not sure a Zaha or Redmond type player is needed in our system. Although having a good 1 v 1 player in the squad is handy, N'Koudou hasn't really been given the chance to be that player
A back up to Kane is also necessary, I'd personally go for Lacazette, he's scored goals in Ligue 1 for years now and he's not overly-coveted by the big clubs, he can also play wide if need be. We can't risk another Janssen level player
Lloris, Vorm, Pau
Walker, Trippier
Toby, Jan, Dier, Wimmer, Davies, CCV
Rose, ???
Dembele, Wanyama, Tielemans, Winks, Onomah
Eriksen, Dele, Lamela (please don't go 😭), Son
Kane, Lacazette, Janssen
Sell - Fazio, N'Jie, N'Koudou, Sissoko
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fantastic someone else who gets it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly.
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 2 hours, 13 minutes ago
My answer was based on your question which was:
"All clubs can be guilty of missing out on players. Why didn't Man u or Chelsea sign Griezman all those years ago?"
What does Griezmann have to do with Rooney signing for United in 2004? Absolutely nothing clearly.
Quite laughable how you sit there saying I've made a 'ridiculous statement' when you've tried to throw in a transfer that took place over a decade ago to support your vague point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok then apart from Ibrahimovic name me a player that United or Chelsea have signed that was bought as the finished article ?
My questions was why did Man u and Chelsea pass up the opportunity to sign Griezman a few years ago and your reply was they just sign the finished article.
Please explain why then that Chelsea sign every young talented footballer with a pulse in the hope that one of them turns into a world beater?
Why did United and Chelsea sign DeGea, Martial, Depay, Zouma, Hazard because they certainly weren't the finished article when they bought them.
There are loads of clubs that would have regretted not signing Griezman years ago and that includes Man utd and Chelsea.
Chelsea signed Costa, Kante & Pedro as the finished article recently
Ok Hengs, I agree with those three.
But Chelsea have signed many many players who aren't the finished article.
They buy them and hoard them.
My point was that ALL clubs rue missing out on players wether they can sign the finished article or not.
According to Ledders that is why Man utd and Chelsea passed up the opportunity to sign Griezman a few years back.
But Chelsea have signed many many players who aren't the finished article.
They buy them and hoard them.
---
well yeah but that's because Chelsea abuse the loan system.
they treat the loan system as a money making exercise (buy players cheap, loan them out and hope to make profit out of them). the occasional one might eventually be used (Victor Moses), and aside from that, they also buy players to stop other teams having them
Salah / Marin / Cuadrado.
wanchors
Chelsea finished article in the past 5 years:
Fabregas, Pedro, Costa, Hazard (pretty much), Willian, Luiz, Kante, Matic, Begovic. Probs much more if I can be rrrsed thinking about it.
Utd finished article:
Bailly, Blind, Mata, Pogba, Ibra, Mkhi, Fellaini , Di Maria etc.
Edin
Cmon mate your clutching at straws here..
Hazard the finished article when Chelsea signed him ? He was 21 at the time with 3 seasons in the French league under his belt.
Matic was 20 when Chelsea first signed him. He certainly want the finished article then.
David Luiz was 23 whn Chelsea first signed him, Do you remember the criticism he got in his first spell with the club?
Willian signed when he was 24 after spending four years in the much heralded Russian league.
These players were bought in for their potential not as the finished article.
I assumed Edin meant resigning Luiz and Matic
Hazard significantly progressed as a player since first signing and was certainly signed for his future potential not just the level he was preforming at for Lille so I disagree
Eric Bailly - Finished article the kid is 22 !!
Blind was signed when 24 from the poor dutch league, how is he the finished article??
And if Pogba is the finished article then Dele Alli must be world class status already.
comment by Dont cry for me Argentina we have pochettino and Lamela (U17539)
posted 35 seconds ago
Eric Bailly - Finished article the kid is 22 !!
Blind was signed when 24 from the poor dutch league, how is he the finished article??
And if Pogba is the finished article then Dele Alli must be world class status already.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
why are you associating finished article with the league that they came from?
you can do it for age, but not really from the league. are you saying that no one in the provincial leagues is the finished article (on the assumption that they could better themselves by moving to a strong league?)
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 15 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by Chronic (U3423)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 4 minutes ago
Again, peeps start mentioning UNPROVEN and NON-PREM ESTABLISHED players...hence why my article asked for thoughts based on these two aspects. A teen from Fulham and unproven foreigners playing abroad is not what I wanted to hear. Come on, we want players to hit the ground running - no "he needs a season to bed in" type players, not when they are on 80K a week!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah but you said drinkwater
might as well suggest mark noble
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England international, Prem league winner, Seems to have done ok, Mr Chronic. It was only a suggestion based on my 'limited' criteria of players that could just slot in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England international is hardly verification of quality these days, nor is being a PL winner...
Kevin Davies
Jay Bothroyd
Leon Osman
Ryan Shawcross
Jake Livermore
Wayne Bridge
Asier Del Horno
Johnny Evans
Danny Welbeck
John Obi Mikel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nearly every single one of those above has been decent at some point! FFS, some people are in dreamland that we'll either attract the world's best on small wages or unearth another Alli. Reality check needed I think.
Chronic - care to actually suggest any squad member upgrades or not? 👍
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who said or implied we should find the world's best on minimum wages? I know I facking haven't so I'm pretty sure you're not saying I'm in dreamland?
The fact of the matter is I can list a load of players who everyone knew was talented and were at clubs we could get them from before they improved to the point the top clubs started circling and became unattainable for us:
Griezman:
Helped Sociedad finish in a CL spot in 12/13 and then stayed the following season before Atleti bought him. Now rated in the £70m bracket - we can't get him.
Rakitic:
Showed the ball-playing ability we were severely lacking whilst at Sevilla in 12/13 and 13/14 after his international teammate left us and Dembele was floundering. Played well enough to get a move to Barca where he's been key for most of the time - we can't get him.
Martial:
Available to us for £20m and we needed someone as an alternative to Kane, we baulked at the price and spent 40% less on N'jie. Pace, decent finisher and has the potential. United paid a fortune for him - can't get him.
I can give you more names of players we should have been in for who aren't the "world's best players...." who have sinced moved to clubs at affordable prices and wages such as Dembele at Dortmund, Embolo at Schalke and I can also name you players who've not moved yet but will do soon such as Tielemans, Brandt and Dolberg, which emphasises the fact that we're always caught sleeping until it's too late.
THAT is the reality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hazard was one of the highest sought after talents in world football when Chelsea signed him. Such a big deal was made over it as every club in the world scrambled to try and get his signature; and he announced it in that noncey way on twitter.
Matic was 25 the second time they signed him. After having a successful spell in Benfica.
David Luiz was 28 second time Chelsea signed him. Completely the finished article.
Willian is potentially a bit more disputable, but he had 6 seasons at Shakhtar in the Ukrainian league; for a team that set the CL alight season after season. He went for a lot of money because people were signing the finished article with regards to him.
comment by Dont cry for me Argentina we have pochettino and Lamela (U17539)
posted 5 minutes ago
Eric Bailly - Finished article the kid is 22 !!
Blind was signed when 24 from the poor dutch league, how is he the finished article??
And if Pogba is the finished article then Dele Alli must be world class status already.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your categorisation of finished article is bizarre and inconsinstent.
Basically you mean a player who has played in the premier league and, even if they have had 3-4 world class seasons, still need to be 25+.
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 15 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by Chronic (U3423)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 4 minutes ago
Again, peeps start mentioning UNPROVEN and NON-PREM ESTABLISHED players...hence why my article asked for thoughts based on these two aspects. A teen from Fulham and unproven foreigners playing abroad is not what I wanted to hear. Come on, we want players to hit the ground running - no "he needs a season to bed in" type players, not when they are on 80K a week!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah but you said drinkwater
might as well suggest mark noble
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England international, Prem league winner, Seems to have done ok, Mr Chronic. It was only a suggestion based on my 'limited' criteria of players that could just slot in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England international is hardly verification of quality these days, nor is being a PL winner...
Kevin Davies
Jay Bothroyd
Leon Osman
Ryan Shawcross
Jake Livermore
Wayne Bridge
Asier Del Horno
Johnny Evans
Danny Welbeck
John Obi Mikel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nearly every single one of those above has been decent at some point! FFS, some people are in dreamland that we'll either attract the world's best on small wages or unearth another Alli. Reality check needed I think.
Chronic - care to actually suggest any squad member upgrades or not? 👍
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who said or implied we should find the world's best on minimum wages? I know I facking haven't so I'm pretty sure you're not saying I'm in dreamland?
The fact of the matter is I can list a load of players who everyone knew was talented and were at clubs we could get them from before they improved to the point the top clubs started circling and became unattainable for us:
Griezman:
Helped Sociedad finish in a CL spot in 12/13 and then stayed the following season before Atleti bought him. Now rated in the £70m bracket - we can't get him.
Rakitic:
Showed the ball-playing ability we were severely lacking whilst at Sevilla in 12/13 and 13/14 after his international teammate left us and Dembele was floundering. Played well enough to get a move to Barca where he's been key for most of the time - we can't get him.
Martial:
Available to us for £20m and we needed someone as an alternative to Kane, we baulked at the price and spent 40% less on N'jie. Pace, decent finisher and has the potential. United paid a fortune for him - can't get him.
I can give you more names of players we should have been in for who aren't the "world's best players...." who have sinced moved to clubs at affordable prices and wages such as Dembele at Dortmund, Embolo at Schalke and I can also name you players who've not moved yet but will do soon such as Tielemans, Brandt and Dolberg, which emphasises the fact that we're always caught sleeping until it's too late.
THAT is the reality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Whilst I agree with what you posted; amusingly the signing of Janssen is an example of an Embolo/Dolberg level signing.
FFS what a copy and paste mess I am having
Cant use Matic and Luiz as examples then as they were originally signed for their potential when they were in their early twenties.
The point I'm making is United and Chelsea apart from a few exceptions mostly buy potential rather than the finished article player.
People mention the likes of Ibra, Kante etc being the finished article but what about Ronaldo, Degea, Martial, Zouma, Depay??
I'm merely arguing the point that even mega rich clubs like United and Chelsea don't deliberately pass up signing players like Griezman just because they think they can wait and buy them at top price.
All clubs unearth talent but also make mistakes by missing out on players too.
Imo you have 3 different types:
Finished article; someone who's done it at a very high level for number of years. ( Ronaldo going to Madrid )
Proven potential; someone who's proven it over a few years but can continue to improve lots ( if Kane was to leave this summer )
Risky potential; someone just on the scene had a good season at a lower level ( Alli to Spurs )
Why can't they be used as examples ffs
Absolute mess of a discussion this
comment by <Hengy> (U9129)
posted 19 seconds ago
Imo you have 3 different types:
Finished article; someone who's done it at a very high level for number of years. ( Ronaldo going to Madrid )
Proven potential; someone who's proven it over a few years but can continue to improve lots ( if Kane was to leave this summer )
Risky potential; someone just on the scene had a good season at a lower level ( Alli to Spurs )
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the sake of being a pedants, if we sold Kane this summer he would have had the same amount of 'high level for number of years' seasons as Ronaldo.
comment by Edinfam (U1109)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by <Hengy> (U9129)
posted 19 seconds ago
Imo you have 3 different types:
Finished article; someone who's done it at a very high level for number of years. ( Ronaldo going to Madrid )
Proven potential; someone who's proven it over a few years but can continue to improve lots ( if Kane was to leave this summer )
Risky potential; someone just on the scene had a good season at a lower level ( Alli to Spurs )
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the sake of being a pedants, if we sold Kane this summer he would have had the same amount of 'high level for number of years' seasons as Ronaldo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but he hasn't really achieved anything.
Probably KdB is a better example after having good seasons for Genk & Bremen then
comment by Dont cry for me Argentina we have pochettino and Lamela (U17539)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 2 hours, 13 minutes ago
My answer was based on your question which was:
"All clubs can be guilty of missing out on players. Why didn't Man u or Chelsea sign Griezman all those years ago?"
What does Griezmann have to do with Rooney signing for United in 2004? Absolutely nothing clearly.
Quite laughable how you sit there saying I've made a 'ridiculous statement' when you've tried to throw in a transfer that took place over a decade ago to support your vague point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok then apart from Ibrahimovic name me a player that United or Chelsea have signed that was bought as the finished article ?
My questions was why did Man u and Chelsea pass up the opportunity to sign Griezman a few years ago and your reply was they just sign the finished article.
Please explain why then that Chelsea sign every young talented footballer with a pulse in the hope that one of them turns into a world beater?
Why did United and Chelsea sign DeGea, Martial, Depay, Zouma, Hazard because they certainly weren't the finished article when they bought them.
There are loads of clubs that would have regretted not signing Griezman years ago and that includes Man utd and Chelsea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ffs I'm talking about the 1 player YOU asked about in YOUR question which was Griezmann, so I answered YOUR question in regards to Griezmann and the timescale I was referring to - 12/13 and 13/14 - not every single transfer United or Chelsea have made in the last 15 years.
If you can't word your questions accurately that's your issue not mine.
Edin
The whole argument originally started because Spurs were criticised for missing out on Griezman, Embolo, Ousmane Dembele etc. My response was we signed the likes of Alli, Alderweireld, Wanyama, all palyers that every club knew about but we got in there first and made the right decision. we have made mistakes but also made some damn good decisions too.
I then stated this happens at ALL clubs and even sides like United and Chelsea will kick themselves for missing out on Griezman, Dembele etc.
Ledders responded that United and Chelsea can do this because they can wait and buy the player when he is the finished article. My argument then was that United and Chelsea wouldn't deliberately miss out on signing such potential just because they are loaded, I'm sure there has been many scouts that have been made accountable for missing out on such talent and that's why there is such a high turnover of scouts / DOF at clubs. All clubs make right and wrong decisions in the transfer market. I'm sure Alex Ferguson let people know at United for missing out on Bale for example.
Even the big clubs don't just buy players who are the finished article.
United are really the only club in the PL that can still go for the galaticos approach
Ok ledders lets just talk about Griezman then.
You still stand by your response that they passed up the opportunity to sign him years ago because they will just wait and buy him when he is the finished article? Because they have the money to do so?
Why do they still sign players who are young with potential and not the finished article then? (wont mention names)
Sign in if you want to comment
Reinforcements
Page 4 of 6
6
posted on 10/3/17
comment by Analog (U17200)
posted 7 hours, 19 minutes ago
A lot of bang average players being suggested here, we want to consolidate top 4 every season not be content with top 6/7
A major issue for me is our lack of creativity in Europe. It's embarrassing. A technical CM is needed, Tielemans is a risk worth taking imo
A back up for Rose is obvious, there's not many clear options tho
Not sure a Zaha or Redmond type player is needed in our system. Although having a good 1 v 1 player in the squad is handy, N'Koudou hasn't really been given the chance to be that player
A back up to Kane is also necessary, I'd personally go for Lacazette, he's scored goals in Ligue 1 for years now and he's not overly-coveted by the big clubs, he can also play wide if need be. We can't risk another Janssen level player
Lloris, Vorm, Pau
Walker, Trippier
Toby, Jan, Dier, Wimmer, Davies, CCV
Rose, ???
Dembele, Wanyama, Tielemans, Winks, Onomah
Eriksen, Dele, Lamela (please don't go 😭), Son
Kane, Lacazette, Janssen
Sell - Fazio, N'Jie, N'Koudou, Sissoko
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fantastic someone else who gets it
posted on 10/3/17
comment by <Hengy> (U9129)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Analog (U17200)
posted 7 hours, 19 minutes ago
A lot of bang average players being suggested here, we want to consolidate top 4 every season not be content with top 6/7
A major issue for me is our lack of creativity in Europe. It's embarrassing. A technical CM is needed, Tielemans is a risk worth taking imo
A back up for Rose is obvious, there's not many clear options tho
Not sure a Zaha or Redmond type player is needed in our system. Although having a good 1 v 1 player in the squad is handy, N'Koudou hasn't really been given the chance to be that player
A back up to Kane is also necessary, I'd personally go for Lacazette, he's scored goals in Ligue 1 for years now and he's not overly-coveted by the big clubs, he can also play wide if need be. We can't risk another Janssen level player
Lloris, Vorm, Pau
Walker, Trippier
Toby, Jan, Dier, Wimmer, Davies, CCV
Rose, ???
Dembele, Wanyama, Tielemans, Winks, Onomah
Eriksen, Dele, Lamela (please don't go 😭), Son
Kane, Lacazette, Janssen
Sell - Fazio, N'Jie, N'Koudou, Sissoko
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fantastic someone else who gets it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly.
posted on 10/3/17
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 2 hours, 13 minutes ago
My answer was based on your question which was:
"All clubs can be guilty of missing out on players. Why didn't Man u or Chelsea sign Griezman all those years ago?"
What does Griezmann have to do with Rooney signing for United in 2004? Absolutely nothing clearly.
Quite laughable how you sit there saying I've made a 'ridiculous statement' when you've tried to throw in a transfer that took place over a decade ago to support your vague point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok then apart from Ibrahimovic name me a player that United or Chelsea have signed that was bought as the finished article ?
My questions was why did Man u and Chelsea pass up the opportunity to sign Griezman a few years ago and your reply was they just sign the finished article.
Please explain why then that Chelsea sign every young talented footballer with a pulse in the hope that one of them turns into a world beater?
Why did United and Chelsea sign DeGea, Martial, Depay, Zouma, Hazard because they certainly weren't the finished article when they bought them.
There are loads of clubs that would have regretted not signing Griezman years ago and that includes Man utd and Chelsea.
posted on 10/3/17
Chelsea signed Costa, Kante & Pedro as the finished article recently
posted on 10/3/17
Ok Hengs, I agree with those three.
But Chelsea have signed many many players who aren't the finished article.
They buy them and hoard them.
My point was that ALL clubs rue missing out on players wether they can sign the finished article or not.
According to Ledders that is why Man utd and Chelsea passed up the opportunity to sign Griezman a few years back.
posted on 10/3/17
But Chelsea have signed many many players who aren't the finished article.
They buy them and hoard them.
---
well yeah but that's because Chelsea abuse the loan system.
they treat the loan system as a money making exercise (buy players cheap, loan them out and hope to make profit out of them). the occasional one might eventually be used (Victor Moses), and aside from that, they also buy players to stop other teams having them
Salah / Marin / Cuadrado.
wanchors
posted on 10/3/17
Chelsea finished article in the past 5 years:
Fabregas, Pedro, Costa, Hazard (pretty much), Willian, Luiz, Kante, Matic, Begovic. Probs much more if I can be rrrsed thinking about it.
Utd finished article:
Bailly, Blind, Mata, Pogba, Ibra, Mkhi, Fellaini , Di Maria etc.
posted on 10/3/17
Edin
Cmon mate your clutching at straws here..
Hazard the finished article when Chelsea signed him ? He was 21 at the time with 3 seasons in the French league under his belt.
Matic was 20 when Chelsea first signed him. He certainly want the finished article then.
David Luiz was 23 whn Chelsea first signed him, Do you remember the criticism he got in his first spell with the club?
Willian signed when he was 24 after spending four years in the much heralded Russian league.
These players were bought in for their potential not as the finished article.
posted on 10/3/17
I assumed Edin meant resigning Luiz and Matic
Hazard significantly progressed as a player since first signing and was certainly signed for his future potential not just the level he was preforming at for Lille so I disagree
posted on 10/3/17
Eric Bailly - Finished article the kid is 22 !!
Blind was signed when 24 from the poor dutch league, how is he the finished article??
And if Pogba is the finished article then Dele Alli must be world class status already.
posted on 10/3/17
comment by Dont cry for me Argentina we have pochettino and Lamela (U17539)
posted 35 seconds ago
Eric Bailly - Finished article the kid is 22 !!
Blind was signed when 24 from the poor dutch league, how is he the finished article??
And if Pogba is the finished article then Dele Alli must be world class status already.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
why are you associating finished article with the league that they came from?
you can do it for age, but not really from the league. are you saying that no one in the provincial leagues is the finished article (on the assumption that they could better themselves by moving to a strong league?)
posted on 10/3/17
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 15 hours, 45 minutes ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by Chronic (U3423)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 4 minutes ago
Again, peeps start mentioning UNPROVEN and NON-PREM ESTABLISHED players...hence why my article asked for thoughts based on these two aspects. A teen from Fulham and unproven foreigners playing abroad is not what I wanted to hear. Come on, we want players to hit the ground running - no "he needs a season to bed in" type players, not when they are on 80K a week!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah but you said drinkwater
might as well suggest mark noble
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England international, Prem league winner, Seems to have done ok, Mr Chronic. It was only a suggestion based on my 'limited' criteria of players that could just slot in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England international is hardly verification of quality these days, nor is being a PL winner...
Kevin Davies
Jay Bothroyd
Leon Osman
Ryan Shawcross
Jake Livermore
Wayne Bridge
Asier Del Horno
Johnny Evans
Danny Welbeck
John Obi Mikel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nearly every single one of those above has been decent at some point! FFS, some people are in dreamland that we'll either attract the world's best on small wages or unearth another Alli. Reality check needed I think.
Chronic - care to actually suggest any squad member upgrades or not? 👍
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who said or implied we should find the world's best on minimum wages? I know I facking haven't so I'm pretty sure you're not saying I'm in dreamland?
The fact of the matter is I can list a load of players who everyone knew was talented and were at clubs we could get them from before they improved to the point the top clubs started circling and became unattainable for us:
Griezman:
Helped Sociedad finish in a CL spot in 12/13 and then stayed the following season before Atleti bought him. Now rated in the £70m bracket - we can't get him.
Rakitic:
Showed the ball-playing ability we were severely lacking whilst at Sevilla in 12/13 and 13/14 after his international teammate left us and Dembele was floundering. Played well enough to get a move to Barca where he's been key for most of the time - we can't get him.
Martial:
Available to us for £20m and we needed someone as an alternative to Kane, we baulked at the price and spent 40% less on N'jie. Pace, decent finisher and has the potential. United paid a fortune for him - can't get him.
I can give you more names of players we should have been in for who aren't the "world's best players...." who have sinced moved to clubs at affordable prices and wages such as Dembele at Dortmund, Embolo at Schalke and I can also name you players who've not moved yet but will do soon such as Tielemans, Brandt and Dolberg, which emphasises the fact that we're always caught sleeping until it's too late.
THAT is the reality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hazard was one of the highest sought after talents in world football when Chelsea signed him. Such a big deal was made over it as every club in the world scrambled to try and get his signature; and he announced it in that noncey way on twitter.
Matic was 25 the second time they signed him. After having a successful spell in Benfica.
David Luiz was 28 second time Chelsea signed him. Completely the finished article.
Willian is potentially a bit more disputable, but he had 6 seasons at Shakhtar in the Ukrainian league; for a team that set the CL alight season after season. He went for a lot of money because people were signing the finished article with regards to him.
posted on 10/3/17
comment by Dont cry for me Argentina we have pochettino and Lamela (U17539)
posted 5 minutes ago
Eric Bailly - Finished article the kid is 22 !!
Blind was signed when 24 from the poor dutch league, how is he the finished article??
And if Pogba is the finished article then Dele Alli must be world class status already.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your categorisation of finished article is bizarre and inconsinstent.
Basically you mean a player who has played in the premier league and, even if they have had 3-4 world class seasons, still need to be 25+.
posted on 10/3/17
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 15 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by Chronic (U3423)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Realistic_Spurs_Fan (U7921)
posted 4 minutes ago
Again, peeps start mentioning UNPROVEN and NON-PREM ESTABLISHED players...hence why my article asked for thoughts based on these two aspects. A teen from Fulham and unproven foreigners playing abroad is not what I wanted to hear. Come on, we want players to hit the ground running - no "he needs a season to bed in" type players, not when they are on 80K a week!!
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yeah but you said drinkwater
might as well suggest mark noble
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England international, Prem league winner, Seems to have done ok, Mr Chronic. It was only a suggestion based on my 'limited' criteria of players that could just slot in.
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England international is hardly verification of quality these days, nor is being a PL winner...
Kevin Davies
Jay Bothroyd
Leon Osman
Ryan Shawcross
Jake Livermore
Wayne Bridge
Asier Del Horno
Johnny Evans
Danny Welbeck
John Obi Mikel
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Nearly every single one of those above has been decent at some point! FFS, some people are in dreamland that we'll either attract the world's best on small wages or unearth another Alli. Reality check needed I think.
Chronic - care to actually suggest any squad member upgrades or not? 👍
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Who said or implied we should find the world's best on minimum wages? I know I facking haven't so I'm pretty sure you're not saying I'm in dreamland?
The fact of the matter is I can list a load of players who everyone knew was talented and were at clubs we could get them from before they improved to the point the top clubs started circling and became unattainable for us:
Griezman:
Helped Sociedad finish in a CL spot in 12/13 and then stayed the following season before Atleti bought him. Now rated in the £70m bracket - we can't get him.
Rakitic:
Showed the ball-playing ability we were severely lacking whilst at Sevilla in 12/13 and 13/14 after his international teammate left us and Dembele was floundering. Played well enough to get a move to Barca where he's been key for most of the time - we can't get him.
Martial:
Available to us for £20m and we needed someone as an alternative to Kane, we baulked at the price and spent 40% less on N'jie. Pace, decent finisher and has the potential. United paid a fortune for him - can't get him.
I can give you more names of players we should have been in for who aren't the "world's best players...." who have sinced moved to clubs at affordable prices and wages such as Dembele at Dortmund, Embolo at Schalke and I can also name you players who've not moved yet but will do soon such as Tielemans, Brandt and Dolberg, which emphasises the fact that we're always caught sleeping until it's too late.
THAT is the reality.
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Whilst I agree with what you posted; amusingly the signing of Janssen is an example of an Embolo/Dolberg level signing.
posted on 10/3/17
FFS what a copy and paste mess I am having
posted on 10/3/17
Cant use Matic and Luiz as examples then as they were originally signed for their potential when they were in their early twenties.
The point I'm making is United and Chelsea apart from a few exceptions mostly buy potential rather than the finished article player.
People mention the likes of Ibra, Kante etc being the finished article but what about Ronaldo, Degea, Martial, Zouma, Depay??
I'm merely arguing the point that even mega rich clubs like United and Chelsea don't deliberately pass up signing players like Griezman just because they think they can wait and buy them at top price.
All clubs unearth talent but also make mistakes by missing out on players too.
posted on 10/3/17
Imo you have 3 different types:
Finished article; someone who's done it at a very high level for number of years. ( Ronaldo going to Madrid )
Proven potential; someone who's proven it over a few years but can continue to improve lots ( if Kane was to leave this summer )
Risky potential; someone just on the scene had a good season at a lower level ( Alli to Spurs )
posted on 10/3/17
Why can't they be used as examples ffs
Absolute mess of a discussion this
posted on 10/3/17
comment by <Hengy> (U9129)
posted 19 seconds ago
Imo you have 3 different types:
Finished article; someone who's done it at a very high level for number of years. ( Ronaldo going to Madrid )
Proven potential; someone who's proven it over a few years but can continue to improve lots ( if Kane was to leave this summer )
Risky potential; someone just on the scene had a good season at a lower level ( Alli to Spurs )
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For the sake of being a pedants, if we sold Kane this summer he would have had the same amount of 'high level for number of years' seasons as Ronaldo.
posted on 10/3/17
comment by Edinfam (U1109)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by <Hengy> (U9129)
posted 19 seconds ago
Imo you have 3 different types:
Finished article; someone who's done it at a very high level for number of years. ( Ronaldo going to Madrid )
Proven potential; someone who's proven it over a few years but can continue to improve lots ( if Kane was to leave this summer )
Risky potential; someone just on the scene had a good season at a lower level ( Alli to Spurs )
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For the sake of being a pedants, if we sold Kane this summer he would have had the same amount of 'high level for number of years' seasons as Ronaldo.
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True but he hasn't really achieved anything.
Probably KdB is a better example after having good seasons for Genk & Bremen then
posted on 10/3/17
comment by Dont cry for me Argentina we have pochettino and Lamela (U17539)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by Ledders The King - Football Manager Icon (U20121)
posted 2 hours, 13 minutes ago
My answer was based on your question which was:
"All clubs can be guilty of missing out on players. Why didn't Man u or Chelsea sign Griezman all those years ago?"
What does Griezmann have to do with Rooney signing for United in 2004? Absolutely nothing clearly.
Quite laughable how you sit there saying I've made a 'ridiculous statement' when you've tried to throw in a transfer that took place over a decade ago to support your vague point
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Ok then apart from Ibrahimovic name me a player that United or Chelsea have signed that was bought as the finished article ?
My questions was why did Man u and Chelsea pass up the opportunity to sign Griezman a few years ago and your reply was they just sign the finished article.
Please explain why then that Chelsea sign every young talented footballer with a pulse in the hope that one of them turns into a world beater?
Why did United and Chelsea sign DeGea, Martial, Depay, Zouma, Hazard because they certainly weren't the finished article when they bought them.
There are loads of clubs that would have regretted not signing Griezman years ago and that includes Man utd and Chelsea.
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Ffs I'm talking about the 1 player YOU asked about in YOUR question which was Griezmann, so I answered YOUR question in regards to Griezmann and the timescale I was referring to - 12/13 and 13/14 - not every single transfer United or Chelsea have made in the last 15 years.
If you can't word your questions accurately that's your issue not mine.
posted on 10/3/17
Edin
The whole argument originally started because Spurs were criticised for missing out on Griezman, Embolo, Ousmane Dembele etc. My response was we signed the likes of Alli, Alderweireld, Wanyama, all palyers that every club knew about but we got in there first and made the right decision. we have made mistakes but also made some damn good decisions too.
I then stated this happens at ALL clubs and even sides like United and Chelsea will kick themselves for missing out on Griezman, Dembele etc.
Ledders responded that United and Chelsea can do this because they can wait and buy the player when he is the finished article. My argument then was that United and Chelsea wouldn't deliberately miss out on signing such potential just because they are loaded, I'm sure there has been many scouts that have been made accountable for missing out on such talent and that's why there is such a high turnover of scouts / DOF at clubs. All clubs make right and wrong decisions in the transfer market. I'm sure Alex Ferguson let people know at United for missing out on Bale for example.
Even the big clubs don't just buy players who are the finished article.
posted on 10/3/17
United are really the only club in the PL that can still go for the galaticos approach
posted on 10/3/17
I'm really confused.
posted on 10/3/17
Ok ledders lets just talk about Griezman then.
You still stand by your response that they passed up the opportunity to sign him years ago because they will just wait and buy him when he is the finished article? Because they have the money to do so?
Why do they still sign players who are young with potential and not the finished article then? (wont mention names)
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