comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
Crime rates dropped massively in New York during the 90s

https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/what-reduced-crime-new-york-city

I think the better correlation is the shift in policing strategies rather than focusing on assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"the police force in New York City grew by 35 percent in the 1990s, the numbers of prison inmates rose 24 percent".

Bigger investments in police numbers and prison places required
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed. I would love more police but with the caveat that they are actually doing something proactive. Our biggest issue is that they aren’t proactive

comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
Crime rates dropped massively in New York during the 90s

https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/what-reduced-crime-new-york-city

I think the better correlation is the shift in policing strategies rather than focusing on assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"the police force in New York City grew by 35 percent in the 1990s, the numbers of prison inmates rose 24 percent".

Bigger investments in police numbers and prison places required
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Increasing arrests appears to have some plausible causation. I was interested that the article also mentioned to economic changes in NYC coming out of the 80s as another driver.

Now, do we think that police officers are always the best people to attend 911 calls for service (90% of which are for non violent incidents) particularly in situations of mental health crisis? If you think that perhaps other qualified professionals would be better suited to that situation given the limited training given to police officers, then you support the “defund the police” initiative.

If you recognise as above that deprivation and poor economic circumstances can lead people to crime, and believe that were those economic situations better then there would be less crime, and believe we can do more to facilitate that (focusing proactively on the causes of crime as opposed to reacting when crime occurs) then you support the “defund the police” initiative.

comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
Crime rates dropped massively in New York during the 90s

https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/what-reduced-crime-new-york-city

I think the better correlation is the shift in policing strategies rather than focusing on assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"the police force in New York City grew by 35 percent in the 1990s, the numbers of prison inmates rose 24 percent".

Bigger investments in police numbers and prison places required
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Increasing arrests appears to have some plausible causation. I was interested that the article also mentioned to economic changes in NYC coming out of the 80s as another driver.

Now, do we think that police officers are always the best people to attend 911 calls for service (90% of which are for non violent incidents) particularly in situations of mental health crisis? If you think that perhaps other qualified professionals would be better suited to that situation given the limited training given to police officers, then you support the “defund the police” initiative.

If you recognise as above that deprivation and poor economic circumstances can lead people to crime, and believe that were those economic situations better then there would be less crime, and believe we can do more to facilitate that (focusing proactively on the causes of crime as opposed to reacting when crime occurs) then you support the “defund the police” initiative.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on the country. In the US they have to be the ones attending as too many nutcases are armed to the teeth. But better training on handling ‘mental health’ scenarios is required to minimise violent outcomes.

But I wouldn’t support social care worker types responding to 911 calls, no.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
Crime rates dropped massively in New York during the 90s

https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/what-reduced-crime-new-york-city

I think the better correlation is the shift in policing strategies rather than focusing on assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"the police force in New York City grew by 35 percent in the 1990s, the numbers of prison inmates rose 24 percent".

Bigger investments in police numbers and prison places required
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Increasing arrests appears to have some plausible causation. I was interested that the article also mentioned to economic changes in NYC coming out of the 80s as another driver.

Now, do we think that police officers are always the best people to attend 911 calls for service (90% of which are for non violent incidents) particularly in situations of mental health crisis? If you think that perhaps other qualified professionals would be better suited to that situation given the limited training given to police officers, then you support the “defund the police” initiative.

If you recognise as above that deprivation and poor economic circumstances can lead people to crime, and believe that were those economic situations better then there would be less crime, and believe we can do more to facilitate that (focusing proactively on the causes of crime as opposed to reacting when crime occurs) then you support the “defund the police” initiative.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on the country. In the US they have to be the ones attending as too many nutcases are armed to the teeth. But better training on handling ‘mental health’ scenarios is required to minimise violent outcomes.

But I wouldn’t support social care worker types responding to 911 calls, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So to be clear, you expect police officers (remembering the entrance requirements aren’t exactly taxing) to be those who attend in cases of mental health crises, as opposed to a qualified social worker with a degree in sociology or psychology? Sorry I really struggle to believe that. How much more training do you think police officers should have? As far as I can tell the training of police officers in the US is mainly around use of force, shooting, and driving, with some small amount of time on “the law”.

Also note I specifically mentioned “calls for service”. These are incidents as I mentioned that are in a large large majority non violent, and indeed evidence suggests that the presence of armed police can escalate the situation to become violent, with officers poorly trained or not trained at all in de-escalation techniques.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 22 minutes ago
Sorry but isn’t NY an absolute crime reduction success story?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure on any figures etc, but as a small state conservative do you really support throwing obscene amounts of taxpayer money at an issue to fix it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think they had huge crime issues gun crime & homicide so yes.

Small state doesn’t necessarily mean small police force.


https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2F970b2e80-c6c9-11ea-af37-b51a0627fdfd-standard.png?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&quality=highest&source=next&width=700


They’ve done really well, it’s really not something to criticise but applaud.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They banned assault weapons in 1994, gun control works.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Couldn’t agree more although I thought handguns were used in far more crimes than assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just noted the correlation of the big drop in murders in your link to the ban.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye the real drops came following assault weapons ban. It’ll be multi-dimensional, but again we were talking about the militarisation of the police, and criticising that. Satters - do you support the militarisation of police?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you mean crazy weaponry then no not really. But I think the police needs to be a preventative force rather than reactionary like we have here.

I’m pretty confident that handguns are the majority of guns used in murders, for pretty obvious reasons really.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
On your first paragraph that's pretty much where I'm at, the money for APCs and mortars really would be better spent on mental health training.

comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 5 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
Crime rates dropped massively in New York during the 90s

https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/what-reduced-crime-new-york-city

I think the better correlation is the shift in policing strategies rather than focusing on assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"the police force in New York City grew by 35 percent in the 1990s, the numbers of prison inmates rose 24 percent".

Bigger investments in police numbers and prison places required
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Increasing arrests appears to have some plausible causation. I was interested that the article also mentioned to economic changes in NYC coming out of the 80s as another driver.

Now, do we think that police officers are always the best people to attend 911 calls for service (90% of which are for non violent incidents) particularly in situations of mental health crisis? If you think that perhaps other qualified professionals would be better suited to that situation given the limited training given to police officers, then you support the “defund the police” initiative.

If you recognise as above that deprivation and poor economic circumstances can lead people to crime, and believe that were those economic situations better then there would be less crime, and believe we can do more to facilitate that (focusing proactively on the causes of crime as opposed to reacting when crime occurs) then you support the “defund the police” initiative.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on the country. In the US they have to be the ones attending as too many nutcases are armed to the teeth. But better training on handling ‘mental health’ scenarios is required to minimise violent outcomes.

But I wouldn’t support social care worker types responding to 911 calls, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So to be clear, you expect police officers (remembering the entrance requirements aren’t exactly taxing) to be those who attend in cases of mental health crises, as opposed to a qualified social worker with a degree in sociology or psychology? Sorry I really struggle to believe that. How much more training do you think police officers should have? As far as I can tell the training of police officers in the US is mainly around use of force, shooting, and driving, with some small amount of time on “the law”.

Also note I specifically mentioned “calls for service”. These are incidents as I mentioned that are in a large large majority non violent, and indeed evidence suggests that the presence of armed police can escalate the situation to become violent, with officers poorly trained or not trained at all in de-escalation techniques.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah yes you did. In that case both should attend. Mental health professionals should be part of the squad. But safety is a massive issue over there

comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 22 minutes ago
Sorry but isn’t NY an absolute crime reduction success story?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure on any figures etc, but as a small state conservative do you really support throwing obscene amounts of taxpayer money at an issue to fix it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think they had huge crime issues gun crime & homicide so yes.

Small state doesn’t necessarily mean small police force.


https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2F970b2e80-c6c9-11ea-af37-b51a0627fdfd-standard.png?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&quality=highest&source=next&width=700


They’ve done really well, it’s really not something to criticise but applaud.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They banned assault weapons in 1994, gun control works.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Couldn’t agree more although I thought handguns were used in far more crimes than assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just noted the correlation of the big drop in murders in your link to the ban.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye the real drops came following assault weapons ban. It’ll be multi-dimensional, but again we were talking about the militarisation of the police, and criticising that. Satters - do you support the militarisation of police?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you mean crazy weaponry then no not really. But I think the police needs to be a preventative force rather than reactionary like we have here.

I’m pretty confident that handguns are the majority of guns used in murders, for pretty obvious reasons really.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
On your first paragraph that's pretty much where I'm at, the money for APCs and mortars really would be better spent on mental health training.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely. Have they actually got mortars?!!?!!

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 16 seconds ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 22 minutes ago
Sorry but isn’t NY an absolute crime reduction success story?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure on any figures etc, but as a small state conservative do you really support throwing obscene amounts of taxpayer money at an issue to fix it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think they had huge crime issues gun crime & homicide so yes.

Small state doesn’t necessarily mean small police force.


https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2F970b2e80-c6c9-11ea-af37-b51a0627fdfd-standard.png?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&quality=highest&source=next&width=700


They’ve done really well, it’s really not something to criticise but applaud.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They banned assault weapons in 1994, gun control works.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Couldn’t agree more although I thought handguns were used in far more crimes than assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just noted the correlation of the big drop in murders in your link to the ban.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye the real drops came following assault weapons ban. It’ll be multi-dimensional, but again we were talking about the militarisation of the police, and criticising that. Satters - do you support the militarisation of police?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you mean crazy weaponry then no not really. But I think the police needs to be a preventative force rather than reactionary like we have here.

I’m pretty confident that handguns are the majority of guns used in murders, for pretty obvious reasons really.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
On your first paragraph that's pretty much where I'm at, the money for APCs and mortars really would be better spent on mental health training.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely. Have they actually got mortars?!!?!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was on the list that started the conversation.

In terms of armament budget the NYPD are one of the biggest militaries in the world.

Money far better spent on training and actual professionals i would think.

I think they rank 20th iirc.

Just between Greece and North Korea

comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 11 minutes ago
I think they rank 20th iirc.

Just between Greece and North Korea
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roflmao

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 5 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
Crime rates dropped massively in New York during the 90s

https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/what-reduced-crime-new-york-city

I think the better correlation is the shift in policing strategies rather than focusing on assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"the police force in New York City grew by 35 percent in the 1990s, the numbers of prison inmates rose 24 percent".

Bigger investments in police numbers and prison places required
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Increasing arrests appears to have some plausible causation. I was interested that the article also mentioned to economic changes in NYC coming out of the 80s as another driver.

Now, do we think that police officers are always the best people to attend 911 calls for service (90% of which are for non violent incidents) particularly in situations of mental health crisis? If you think that perhaps other qualified professionals would be better suited to that situation given the limited training given to police officers, then you support the “defund the police” initiative.

If you recognise as above that deprivation and poor economic circumstances can lead people to crime, and believe that were those economic situations better then there would be less crime, and believe we can do more to facilitate that (focusing proactively on the causes of crime as opposed to reacting when crime occurs) then you support the “defund the police” initiative.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on the country. In the US they have to be the ones attending as too many nutcases are armed to the teeth. But better training on handling ‘mental health’ scenarios is required to minimise violent outcomes.

But I wouldn’t support social care worker types responding to 911 calls, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So to be clear, you expect police officers (remembering the entrance requirements aren’t exactly taxing) to be those who attend in cases of mental health crises, as opposed to a qualified social worker with a degree in sociology or psychology? Sorry I really struggle to believe that. How much more training do you think police officers should have? As far as I can tell the training of police officers in the US is mainly around use of force, shooting, and driving, with some small amount of time on “the law”.

Also note I specifically mentioned “calls for service”. These are incidents as I mentioned that are in a large large majority non violent, and indeed evidence suggests that the presence of armed police can escalate the situation to become violent, with officers poorly trained or not trained at all in de-escalation techniques.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah yes you did. In that case both should attend. Mental health professionals should be part of the squad. But safety is a massive issue over there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is part of the "defund the police" argument. Employ people capable of dealing with those having a mental health crisis rather than replying on a catch-all cop. Better for the cops and the person in crisis.

Anecdotally, I've seen 6+ cops from 3 cars attending a geezer having a verbal but non violent meltdown outside a Sainsbury. Circled him until their van arrived then huckled him into the back. That's about 8 cops and 4 vehicles to deal with an issue 2 cops and a mental health pro could have dealt with imo.

comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 1 hour, 15 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 5 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
Crime rates dropped massively in New York during the 90s

https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/what-reduced-crime-new-york-city

I think the better correlation is the shift in policing strategies rather than focusing on assault weapons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"the police force in New York City grew by 35 percent in the 1990s, the numbers of prison inmates rose 24 percent".

Bigger investments in police numbers and prison places required
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Increasing arrests appears to have some plausible causation. I was interested that the article also mentioned to economic changes in NYC coming out of the 80s as another driver.

Now, do we think that police officers are always the best people to attend 911 calls for service (90% of which are for non violent incidents) particularly in situations of mental health crisis? If you think that perhaps other qualified professionals would be better suited to that situation given the limited training given to police officers, then you support the “defund the police” initiative.

If you recognise as above that deprivation and poor economic circumstances can lead people to crime, and believe that were those economic situations better then there would be less crime, and believe we can do more to facilitate that (focusing proactively on the causes of crime as opposed to reacting when crime occurs) then you support the “defund the police” initiative.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on the country. In the US they have to be the ones attending as too many nutcases are armed to the teeth. But better training on handling ‘mental health’ scenarios is required to minimise violent outcomes.

But I wouldn’t support social care worker types responding to 911 calls, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So to be clear, you expect police officers (remembering the entrance requirements aren’t exactly taxing) to be those who attend in cases of mental health crises, as opposed to a qualified social worker with a degree in sociology or psychology? Sorry I really struggle to believe that. How much more training do you think police officers should have? As far as I can tell the training of police officers in the US is mainly around use of force, shooting, and driving, with some small amount of time on “the law”.

Also note I specifically mentioned “calls for service”. These are incidents as I mentioned that are in a large large majority non violent, and indeed evidence suggests that the presence of armed police can escalate the situation to become violent, with officers poorly trained or not trained at all in de-escalation techniques.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah yes you did. In that case both should attend. Mental health professionals should be part of the squad. But safety is a massive issue over there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is part of the "defund the police" argument. Employ people capable of dealing with those having a mental health crisis rather than replying on a catch-all cop. Better for the cops and the person in crisis.

Anecdotally, I've seen 6+ cops from 3 cars attending a geezer having a verbal but non violent meltdown outside a Sainsbury. Circled him until their van arrived then huckled him into the back. That's about 8 cops and 4 vehicles to deal with an issue 2 cops and a mental health pro could have dealt with imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly

I’m not sure how much hoarding huge caches of military grade assault rifles, ATVs, anti-mine APCs, sniper rifles, and military snow-camo fatigues have contributed to bringing the NY crime rate down It’s clearly ridiculous boys with (seriously dangerous) toys stuff.

Increasing policing numbers I expect will have had an effect, but how many care and social workers, mental health professionals, drug dependency workers, etc. might also have been employed by the state, rather than procuring and servicing scores of military vehicles and a small army’s worth of arms of war?

Defunding the police (and boosting funding elsewhere) could at least start with de-militarising the police.

Odd situation at work, whereby I reported my manager a few months back for breaking some rules... Two weeks later he took me in to the office because he had "Some complaints" about my behaviour. And handed me the company policy for bullying and harassment, and said he had highlighted the relevant parts that applied to me.

This includes physical or verbal intimidation, unwanted sexual advances/touching etc.. he wouldn't tell me who the complainants were, when the alleged breaches took place, nor would he give me any examples of it, but was "advising me to correct my behaviour"

So I've proceeded to take it up with HR. who having spoken to me, and indicating it was quite serious accusations, then spoke to the manager and have told me it's okay because he was following an "informal procedure"

Their policy clearly states that several of the accusations he's highlighted SHOULD NOT be dealt with informally.

Fuming.. it seems to be HRs belief that my manager can just allow these accusations against me, warn me about my behaviour and then just sweep it aside.

Now I know these events didn't take place, I know he's done it to try and assert authority over me because I've reported him twice for his misdeeds.. beggars belief that they would allow this to stand.

Sounds like a complete khoont mate. Same with your HR, he should be disciplined for doing things like this

i feel lucky not to have hr or a manager

Seems everyone's a grass knowdays.

That's crazy insert.

Did your boss have a witness present, and/or record the meeting? Seems a bit fishy as understand (in regard to disciplinary/conduct matters) firms are required to report/record to protect both parties.

In that if you were being a d1 ck and were dismissed as a result they are required to provide you with details to protect themselves from an unfair dismissal claim.

comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? Who do you think you are kidding Mr.... (U3126)
posted 0 seconds ago
That's crazy insert.

Did your boss have a witness present, and/or record the meeting? Seems a bit fishy as understand (in regard to disciplinary/conduct matters) firms are required to report/record to protect both parties.

In that if you were being a d1 ck and were dismissed as a result they are required to provide you with details to protect themselves from an unfair dismissal claim.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
PS if you haven't already have a look at your contract, as any employment contract worth its salt will have clearly defined conduct/termination of contract protocols in it.

HR are feckin useless and very rarely care for your best interests.

The one thing that unites this thread; HR complaints 😂😂

Seriously though insert as WWSPD mentions having another person present for all discussions can be really helpful. Do you have a union rep you can reach out to?

HR is a critical function, just often lacks talent/direction

comment by Black Hawk (U16342)
posted 17 minutes ago
HR are feckin useless and very rarely care for your best interests.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
HR care about the company and not the employee

comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? Who do you think you are kidding Mr.... (U3126)
posted 11 minutes ago
That's crazy insert.

Did your boss have a witness present, and/or record the meeting? Seems a bit fishy as understand (in regard to disciplinary/conduct matters) firms are required to report/record to protect both parties.

In that if you were being a d1 ck and were dismissed as a result they are required to provide you with details to protect themselves from an unfair dismissal claim.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I took a union rep in

None of my accusers want to take the process any further apparently.

Someone I sexually assaulted only wanted an informal warning

Its all rather amusing

I've already shot them an email back detailing how their decision is against their own policy, complete with page numbers for ease of verification.

comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Black Hawk (U16342)
posted 17 minutes ago
HR are feckin useless and very rarely care for your best interests.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
HR care about the company and not the employee
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah this is my experience. Particularly if there is an issue with your manager. Which sucks for situations like Inserts.