Thought carvalho was better personally, albeit for a much shorter time
comment by Come to Salah, Come to Success. (U12335)
posted 1 minute ago
When you weigh up all the areas/facets of CB play.....i don't recall seeing anyone significantly better. Significantly being a key word
Pique was amazing for a while but VVD destroys him in certain areas. Rio and Nests are probably the most similar this century. I didn't watch much football live before 2001 so I'll leave that discussion to people who did. JT was amazing....if you swapped them around however.....VVD would find his job easier and dominate probably more. JT whilst being amazing would be more limited....and perform worse than what we saw of him in that Chelsea team
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We will see. John Terry stood out for about 3 or 4 different teams during his time in the PL. Alongside gallas, carvahlo then cahill and luiz.
Different systems, different managers.
VVD like I have said is class, but its been 18 months.
comment by rooney_hernandez (U7012)
posted 17 seconds ago
I much prefer a VVD / Rio type defender to a Maguire / Terry. Not that the latterly two can't play with the ball - and they'll win everything that goes into the box - I just think that VVD and Rio play with a certain positional intelligence that the other two lacked.
I do take the point about Rio's lack of concentration, at times, however, I've yet to see that in VVD's game (although, I can't say I watch every L'pool match start-to-finish)
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Rooney what positional intelligence did they lack? JT was compared to Bobby Moore as being the best reader of the game. And with his supposed lack of pace was always in the right position whereas Rio, particularly at the beginning and end of his careers was caught out of position a fair bit.
Terry and VVD have very similar skill sets but VVD has bags of pace too so that edges it for me.
Doesn't really matter though does it.
It's also been a lot more than 18 months. Why do people think Klopp waited so long and forked out £75m?
Terry was an absolute monster for years, and scored massive goals in big games too, VVD is outstanding but has to hit the years of consistency terry did.
I think he deserves it, but doubt he will be given it, if he played in la liga for barca or RM he'd get it for sure.
I think the contrast in positional intelligence is probably best demonstrated by the Terry - Carvalho partnership.
As Lallana says, I prefered Carvalho, however, do concede that Terry stayed on top of the game for much longer than just about anyone.
To bring it back to my own team, as you obviously watch CFC much more than I, Terry was your Vidic and Carvalho your Rio; not identical, ofc, but that's probably the best way I can explain my perception to you.
Maybe Rooney, what did you mean in terms of positional intelligence? I'd argue JT is the best positional CB i've seen unless you count someone like maldini.
His passing was also great. Vidic passing was much more limited.
I mean, Terry obviously wasn't 'bad' in terms of his positioning as is evident by the fact that he's very much in the debate for best PL CB ever, and wasn't blessed with pace like Rio, however, I think Rio ousted him in terms of his positional intelligence with regard to the entire pitch / team, as opposed to simply his own.
You can't do this without having a consistent back four, given, but any time the ball comes through to the backline, he knew where / how he wanted to play before he'd even won it back; he knew where the rest of the team was without looking (testament to their own positional game). In that regard, I'd say he had a more holistic view of the game than Vidic / Terry.
I see Terry as the type whose main focus was 'win the ball back - now' and then, once you've done that, we can have a look up and see what's on.
Rio, for me, was "if I can win this ball back with xyz tackle; Evra's in space on the left and I can feed the ball over to him via abc pass".
I think that is the reason he was viewed as 'so' good with his passing - he already knew what he was going to do with it. Terry, on the other hand, needed a moment (as does Maguire), though I accept Terry was a much better passer of the ball than Vidic.
The legend with Nesta is amazing.Dont get me wrong, I liked the guy but his career was injury hit and probably impacted on his true potential.
Rio is by far, and I mean a huge distance the most natural ball playing CB I have ever seen.Was the only player Thierry couldnt beat.Thierry embarassed Terry so many time, lost count.
Van Dijk has that class about him that Rio had but I think some of the credit needs to go to the Liverpool midfielders who do a lot of work in front of them.
I saw someone said they are the best back 4 in club football thats a lazy unresearched statement.Best CB by far though
I agree that JT's positional sense was outstanding, arguably it had to be because he didn't have pace to get him out of trouble.
All of the CBs being discussed are/were fantastic, often it's about what you prefer. I've always preferred a 'Rio' to a 'Terry' type player because I grew up watching Hansen and was in awe of Maldini and Baresi. That's just my preference though.
Back to the OP, I don't think many could argue with VVD winning. His influence on Liverpool has been profound and he captained a very unfancied Dutch team to the Nations League final. But I do struggle with the idea that he's been a better footballer in the last year than Messi. Just isn't the case imo.
Messi and Ronaldo can feck off this year, they've won enough of them.
comment by rooney_hernandez (U7012)
posted 24 minutes ago
I mean, Terry obviously wasn't 'bad' in terms of his positioning as is evident by the fact that he's very much in the debate for best PL CB ever, and wasn't blessed with pace like Rio, however, I think Rio ousted him in terms of his positional intelligence with regard to the entire pitch / team, as opposed to simply his own.
You can't do this without having a consistent back four, given, but any time the ball comes through to the backline, he knew where / how he wanted to play before he'd even won it back; he knew where the rest of the team was without looking (testament to their own positional game). In that regard, I'd say he had a more holistic view of the game than Vidic / Terry.
I see Terry as the type whose main focus was 'win the ball back - now' and then, once you've done that, we can have a look up and see what's on.
Rio, for me, was "if I can win this ball back with xyz tackle; Evra's in space on the left and I can feed the ball over to him via abc pass".
I think that is the reason he was viewed as 'so' good with his passing - he already knew what he was going to do with it. Terry, on the other hand, needed a moment (as does Maguire), though I accept Terry was a much better passer of the ball than Vidic.
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Cant say I agree at all with that. The amount of times terry brought the ball down or nodded a header to a chelsea shirt while under pressure was phenomenal. Never saw him do a loose headed pass into a dangerous position. So sorry but cant agree.
No need to apologise, mate; we're allowed to disagree! If we all had the same opinion, life would be very mundane indeed!
true. Have a good weekend
I think VVD stands out a lot more as there aren't as many top top centre backs about as there used to be.
He's in good company with the likes of Rio, Terry, Vidic, Stam, Kompany, King, Adams etc.. from the Premier league years.
Not taking anything away from him though because he is very good. Great company to be in.
Messi or Cristiano again for me.
VVD influenced Liverpool to win the champions league and to push the supposed best team in the world history to the last day of the season.
He deserves to win it and that is not from my red rose tinted glasses
Messi scored 50 goals, assisted 20, won the double, and would have won the CL if Dembele could finish.
He has to win it for me.
Since when are Man City the best team in world history.
We shouldn't let people getting bored of Messi and Cristiano winning it every year stop them from winning when they are still better than all the competition.
Has to be Robertson for me. Played a big part in winning the CL. As well as being part of the best back four in the world. He also played a big part in an incredible title challenge. About time a left back won it.
comment by Barefoot (U19770)
posted 4 minutes ago
Messi scored 50 goals, assisted 20, won the double, and would have won the CL if Dembele could finish.
He has to win it for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
actually he didn't.
He flopped in Anfield.
He was so badly affected Barca lost Copa del rey so no double
They fell over the line in league
He didn't do much in Copa america outside the usual so no win there.
so no he didn't do what you said.
comment by Barefoot (U19770)
posted 7 minutes ago
Messi scored 50 goals, assisted 20, won the double, and would have won the CL if Dembele could finish.
He has to win it for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He was in VVD back pocket for the semi final 2nd leg. If he had performed better than VVD then he would of influenced the team to win. VVD influenced the team to win it so he deserves it.
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VVD for Ballon d'or?
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posted on 6/9/19
Thought carvalho was better personally, albeit for a much shorter time
posted on 6/9/19
comment by Come to Salah, Come to Success. (U12335)
posted 1 minute ago
When you weigh up all the areas/facets of CB play.....i don't recall seeing anyone significantly better. Significantly being a key word
Pique was amazing for a while but VVD destroys him in certain areas. Rio and Nests are probably the most similar this century. I didn't watch much football live before 2001 so I'll leave that discussion to people who did. JT was amazing....if you swapped them around however.....VVD would find his job easier and dominate probably more. JT whilst being amazing would be more limited....and perform worse than what we saw of him in that Chelsea team
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We will see. John Terry stood out for about 3 or 4 different teams during his time in the PL. Alongside gallas, carvahlo then cahill and luiz.
Different systems, different managers.
VVD like I have said is class, but its been 18 months.
posted on 6/9/19
comment by rooney_hernandez (U7012)
posted 17 seconds ago
I much prefer a VVD / Rio type defender to a Maguire / Terry. Not that the latterly two can't play with the ball - and they'll win everything that goes into the box - I just think that VVD and Rio play with a certain positional intelligence that the other two lacked.
I do take the point about Rio's lack of concentration, at times, however, I've yet to see that in VVD's game (although, I can't say I watch every L'pool match start-to-finish)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rooney what positional intelligence did they lack? JT was compared to Bobby Moore as being the best reader of the game. And with his supposed lack of pace was always in the right position whereas Rio, particularly at the beginning and end of his careers was caught out of position a fair bit.
posted on 6/9/19
Terry and VVD have very similar skill sets but VVD has bags of pace too so that edges it for me.
Doesn't really matter though does it.
posted on 6/9/19
It's also been a lot more than 18 months. Why do people think Klopp waited so long and forked out £75m?
posted on 6/9/19
Terry was an absolute monster for years, and scored massive goals in big games too, VVD is outstanding but has to hit the years of consistency terry did.
posted on 6/9/19
I think he deserves it, but doubt he will be given it, if he played in la liga for barca or RM he'd get it for sure.
posted on 6/9/19
I think the contrast in positional intelligence is probably best demonstrated by the Terry - Carvalho partnership.
As Lallana says, I prefered Carvalho, however, do concede that Terry stayed on top of the game for much longer than just about anyone.
To bring it back to my own team, as you obviously watch CFC much more than I, Terry was your Vidic and Carvalho your Rio; not identical, ofc, but that's probably the best way I can explain my perception to you.
posted on 6/9/19
Maybe Rooney, what did you mean in terms of positional intelligence? I'd argue JT is the best positional CB i've seen unless you count someone like maldini.
His passing was also great. Vidic passing was much more limited.
posted on 6/9/19
I mean, Terry obviously wasn't 'bad' in terms of his positioning as is evident by the fact that he's very much in the debate for best PL CB ever, and wasn't blessed with pace like Rio, however, I think Rio ousted him in terms of his positional intelligence with regard to the entire pitch / team, as opposed to simply his own.
You can't do this without having a consistent back four, given, but any time the ball comes through to the backline, he knew where / how he wanted to play before he'd even won it back; he knew where the rest of the team was without looking (testament to their own positional game). In that regard, I'd say he had a more holistic view of the game than Vidic / Terry.
I see Terry as the type whose main focus was 'win the ball back - now' and then, once you've done that, we can have a look up and see what's on.
Rio, for me, was "if I can win this ball back with xyz tackle; Evra's in space on the left and I can feed the ball over to him via abc pass".
I think that is the reason he was viewed as 'so' good with his passing - he already knew what he was going to do with it. Terry, on the other hand, needed a moment (as does Maguire), though I accept Terry was a much better passer of the ball than Vidic.
posted on 6/9/19
The legend with Nesta is amazing.Dont get me wrong, I liked the guy but his career was injury hit and probably impacted on his true potential.
Rio is by far, and I mean a huge distance the most natural ball playing CB I have ever seen.Was the only player Thierry couldnt beat.Thierry embarassed Terry so many time, lost count.
Van Dijk has that class about him that Rio had but I think some of the credit needs to go to the Liverpool midfielders who do a lot of work in front of them.
I saw someone said they are the best back 4 in club football thats a lazy unresearched statement.Best CB by far though
posted on 6/9/19
I agree that JT's positional sense was outstanding, arguably it had to be because he didn't have pace to get him out of trouble.
All of the CBs being discussed are/were fantastic, often it's about what you prefer. I've always preferred a 'Rio' to a 'Terry' type player because I grew up watching Hansen and was in awe of Maldini and Baresi. That's just my preference though.
Back to the OP, I don't think many could argue with VVD winning. His influence on Liverpool has been profound and he captained a very unfancied Dutch team to the Nations League final. But I do struggle with the idea that he's been a better footballer in the last year than Messi. Just isn't the case imo.
posted on 6/9/19
Messi and Ronaldo can feck off this year, they've won enough of them.
posted on 6/9/19
comment by rooney_hernandez (U7012)
posted 24 minutes ago
I mean, Terry obviously wasn't 'bad' in terms of his positioning as is evident by the fact that he's very much in the debate for best PL CB ever, and wasn't blessed with pace like Rio, however, I think Rio ousted him in terms of his positional intelligence with regard to the entire pitch / team, as opposed to simply his own.
You can't do this without having a consistent back four, given, but any time the ball comes through to the backline, he knew where / how he wanted to play before he'd even won it back; he knew where the rest of the team was without looking (testament to their own positional game). In that regard, I'd say he had a more holistic view of the game than Vidic / Terry.
I see Terry as the type whose main focus was 'win the ball back - now' and then, once you've done that, we can have a look up and see what's on.
Rio, for me, was "if I can win this ball back with xyz tackle; Evra's in space on the left and I can feed the ball over to him via abc pass".
I think that is the reason he was viewed as 'so' good with his passing - he already knew what he was going to do with it. Terry, on the other hand, needed a moment (as does Maguire), though I accept Terry was a much better passer of the ball than Vidic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cant say I agree at all with that. The amount of times terry brought the ball down or nodded a header to a chelsea shirt while under pressure was phenomenal. Never saw him do a loose headed pass into a dangerous position. So sorry but cant agree.
posted on 6/9/19
No need to apologise, mate; we're allowed to disagree! If we all had the same opinion, life would be very mundane indeed!
posted on 6/9/19
true. Have a good weekend
posted on 6/9/19
You too bro
posted on 6/9/19
I think VVD stands out a lot more as there aren't as many top top centre backs about as there used to be.
He's in good company with the likes of Rio, Terry, Vidic, Stam, Kompany, King, Adams etc.. from the Premier league years.
Not taking anything away from him though because he is very good. Great company to be in.
posted on 6/9/19
Messi or Cristiano again for me.
posted on 6/9/19
VVD influenced Liverpool to win the champions league and to push the supposed best team in the world history to the last day of the season.
He deserves to win it and that is not from my red rose tinted glasses
posted on 6/9/19
Messi scored 50 goals, assisted 20, won the double, and would have won the CL if Dembele could finish.
He has to win it for me.
posted on 6/9/19
Since when are Man City the best team in world history.
We shouldn't let people getting bored of Messi and Cristiano winning it every year stop them from winning when they are still better than all the competition.
posted on 6/9/19
Has to be Robertson for me. Played a big part in winning the CL. As well as being part of the best back four in the world. He also played a big part in an incredible title challenge. About time a left back won it.
posted on 6/9/19
comment by Barefoot (U19770)
posted 4 minutes ago
Messi scored 50 goals, assisted 20, won the double, and would have won the CL if Dembele could finish.
He has to win it for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
actually he didn't.
He flopped in Anfield.
He was so badly affected Barca lost Copa del rey so no double
They fell over the line in league
He didn't do much in Copa america outside the usual so no win there.
so no he didn't do what you said.
posted on 6/9/19
comment by Barefoot (U19770)
posted 7 minutes ago
Messi scored 50 goals, assisted 20, won the double, and would have won the CL if Dembele could finish.
He has to win it for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He was in VVD back pocket for the semi final 2nd leg. If he had performed better than VVD then he would of influenced the team to win. VVD influenced the team to win it so he deserves it.
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