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How can anyone think this government are

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comment by IAWT (U10012)

posted on 14/4/20

There is this guy from the Financial Times: John Burn-Murdoch.

worth reading his articles If anyone is interested in the numbers

posted on 14/4/20

This really is more complex than just an absolute figure of deaths, however horrible that may be

- First of all, if you're going to compare to other countries then you need to do it considering other factors, in particular deaths as a percentage of population (If you have a more populous country, you 'expect' more fatalities), cultural make-up (which may alter R values in different societies) and population density (ditto).

- Second, we don't know how this virus is going to pan out yet. Suppressing a first wave is one thing, although it may just push things further down the line. We may find out in the future that those who had a larger first wave have an easier second wave - and therefore potentially less damage (both health and economic) to the country in the long term with the same number of fatalities directly from the virus, or we may find out that locking down early and decisively was the right way to go, and that the virus will prove manageable in some way. Short term, the latter clearly looks correct. Long term, who knows? You'd likely give a different answer depending on which scientific publication you read last.

- The result of the above provides an explanation for the government's primary tactic, which they've said over and over again since the beginning of this: They're aiming to keep the numbers of ill people below the NHS's capacity. i.e. They're trying to avoid the situation where someone who could have been saved can't get the treatment that would have done so. To me, the government's scientists have identified this as something they can control in a sea of things they can't in the long term.

- It's worth noting the successes of certain countries, although those countries look few and far between. South Korea and Germany are the ones that immediately spring to mind. There's no harm in looking to them to see whether there's anything that can be learned from them. Although I'm not convinced yet that Germany won't face a horrible decision further down the line between lifting restrictions and allowing a big wave of virus in. South Korea looks like the gold standard for pandemic control.

- All above said, if you look at the actual right wing countries around the world, you find pretty terrible leadership. Trump has continued his policy of saying completely contradictory things in every other sentence, let alone every day. Bolsonaro in Brazil has gone with a policy of "what virus?" Both of these have been bailed out by the actions taken by their regional governors to prevent massive loss of life. Meanwhile Orban in Hungary is trying to actively use the crisis to take control of his population.

- The UK is actually somewhere in the middle of all this. We're not going to win awards, but neither should we be slammed for it.

posted on 14/4/20

comment by The_Dungeon_Master (U4830)
posted 2 minutes ago
This really is more complex than just an absolute figure of deaths, however horrible that may be

- First of all, if you're going to compare to other countries then you need to do it considering other factors, in particular deaths as a percentage of population (If you have a more populous country, you 'expect' more fatalities), cultural make-up (which may alter R values in different societies) and population density (ditto).

- Second, we don't know how this virus is going to pan out yet. Suppressing a first wave is one thing, although it may just push things further down the line. We may find out in the future that those who had a larger first wave have an easier second wave - and therefore potentially less damage (both health and economic) to the country in the long term with the same number of fatalities directly from the virus, or we may find out that locking down early and decisively was the right way to go, and that the virus will prove manageable in some way. Short term, the latter clearly looks correct. Long term, who knows? You'd likely give a different answer depending on which scientific publication you read last.

- The result of the above provides an explanation for the government's primary tactic, which they've said over and over again since the beginning of this: They're aiming to keep the numbers of ill people below the NHS's capacity. i.e. They're trying to avoid the situation where someone who could have been saved can't get the treatment that would have done so. To me, the government's scientists have identified this as something they can control in a sea of things they can't in the long term.

- It's worth noting the successes of certain countries, although those countries look few and far between. South Korea and Germany are the ones that immediately spring to mind. There's no harm in looking to them to see whether there's anything that can be learned from them. Although I'm not convinced yet that Germany won't face a horrible decision further down the line between lifting restrictions and allowing a big wave of virus in. South Korea looks like the gold standard for pandemic control.

- All above said, if you look at the actual right wing countries around the world, you find pretty terrible leadership. Trump has continued his policy of saying completely contradictory things in every other sentence, let alone every day. Bolsonaro in Brazil has gone with a policy of "what virus?" Both of these have been bailed out by the actions taken by their regional governors to prevent massive loss of life. Meanwhile Orban in Hungary is trying to actively use the crisis to take control of his population.

- The UK is actually somewhere in the middle of all this. We're not going to win awards, but neither should we be slammed for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This

posted on 14/4/20

comment by The_Dungeon_Master (U4830)
posted 1 minute ago
This really is more complex than just an absolute figure of deaths, however horrible that may be

- First of all, if you're going to compare to other countries then you need to do it considering other factors, in particular deaths as a percentage of population (If you have a more populous country, you 'expect' more fatalities), cultural make-up (which may alter R values in different societies) and population density (ditto).

- Second, we don't know how this virus is going to pan out yet. Suppressing a first wave is one thing, although it may just push things further down the line. We may find out in the future that those who had a larger first wave have an easier second wave - and therefore potentially less damage (both health and economic) to the country in the long term with the same number of fatalities directly from the virus, or we may find out that locking down early and decisively was the right way to go, and that the virus will prove manageable in some way. Short term, the latter clearly looks correct. Long term, who knows? You'd likely give a different answer depending on which scientific publication you read last.

- The result of the above provides an explanation for the government's primary tactic, which they've said over and over again since the beginning of this: They're aiming to keep the numbers of ill people below the NHS's capacity. i.e. They're trying to avoid the situation where someone who could have been saved can't get the treatment that would have done so. To me, the government's scientists have identified this as something they can control in a sea of things they can't in the long term.

- It's worth noting the successes of certain countries, although those countries look few and far between. South Korea and Germany are the ones that immediately spring to mind. There's no harm in looking to them to see whether there's anything that can be learned from them. Although I'm not convinced yet that Germany won't face a horrible decision further down the line between lifting restrictions and allowing a big wave of virus in. South Korea looks like the gold standard for pandemic control.

- All above said, if you look at the actual right wing countries around the world, you find pretty terrible leadership. Trump has continued his policy of saying completely contradictory things in every other sentence, let alone every day. Bolsonaro in Brazil has gone with a policy of "what virus?" Both of these have been bailed out by the actions taken by their regional governors to prevent massive loss of life. Meanwhile Orban in Hungary is trying to actively use the crisis to take control of his population.

- The UK is actually somewhere in the middle of all this. We're not going to win awards, but neither should we be slammed for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Good Post.

posted on 14/4/20

comment by Black Starr (U12353)
posted 8 minutes ago
Let’s not forget that the WHO on January 14th publicly stated that the risk of human to human transmission for Covid 19 was low. That’s the World Health Organisation FFS.

Why did they publish that? Because China told them - despite the fact that by that point China knew full well they had a crisis on their hands
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What's worse is, under their previous head honcho, they vigorously questioned the SARS data.

WHO it's members because of China's agenda with Taiwan. Disgusting really.

posted on 14/4/20

Protect the NHS! But some posters want to protect Tory Policy. The mind boggles...

comment by Melt (U22362)

posted on 14/4/20

Dungeon, what is your reasoning for the U.K. being “middling”?

comment by IAWT (U10012)

posted on 14/4/20

The result of the above provides an explanation for the government's primary tactic, which they've said over and over again since the beginning of this: They're aiming to keep the numbers of ill people below the NHS's capacity. i.e. They're trying to avoid the situation where someone who could have been saved can't get the treatment that would have done so. To me, the government's scientists have identified this as something they can control in a sea of things they can't in the long term
----------
This is the policy of every governments not just the UK. The lockdowns are not aiming at eradicate the virus because that is completely unrealistic but more at slowing down the spread and being able to cope with any cases.
That is why Spain partially lifted up theirs yesterday because they think now they are able to deal with new cases.

posted on 14/4/20

comment by Tomkins (U1116)
posted 1 hour, 31 minutes ago
Oh look another leftie spurs fan. Where do you breed this lot?

And how despicable using thousands of deaths to point score on politics
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Wtf does supporting Spurs have to do with it ?

posted on 14/4/20

comment by Corona will save us from Pool winning the league (U10012)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by The Mighty Tottenham Hotspur. (U7858)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Corona will save us from Pool winning the league (U10012)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by The Mighty Tottenham Hotspur. (U7858)
posted 3 seconds ago
comment by LukaBrasi Jose IN (U22178)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 19 seconds ago
Can add at least another couple of thousand to that when you add in the care home deaths.

An absolute scandal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They way the Terrorist I mean Tories hide the amount of total deaths is a scandal in itself. They only release figures from deaths within the NHS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is the way EVERY country in the world is reporting deaths. Is the only way to compare statistics
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not true. Belgium and France numbers also include those in care homes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well not according to the BBC statistician who explained the numbers on TV yesterday’s
----------------------------------------------------------------------


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-toll/frances-coronavirus-death-toll-jumps-to-nearly-5400-as-nursing-homes-included-idUSKBN21K31I

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the link 👍

posted on 14/4/20

comment by LukaBrasi Jose IN (U22178)
posted 8 minutes ago
Protect the NHS! But some posters want to protect Tory Policy. The mind boggles...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

posted on 14/4/20

Dungeon

posted on 14/4/20

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

posted on 14/4/20

comment by Tarrico_sees_red (U5595)
posted 7 minutes ago
This is what happens when you vote for proven liars and spivs.
Oh we love it when Boris and his Vote Leave government lie - it winds up the lefties. But he’s on my side.

Now we actually need more than sound bites it’s a different story.
However, seeing the front pages of our newspapers this week, I am in no doubt this will all be anyone else’s fault than Brexit Boy “because he allows me not to have to think too much and legitimatise my baser instincts”.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This!

posted on 14/4/20

comment by Tarrico_sees_red (U5595)
posted 12 minutes ago
This is what happens when you vote for proven liars and spivs.
Oh we love it when Boris and his Vote Leave government lie - it winds up the lefties. But he’s on my side.

Now we actually need more than sound bites it’s a different story.
However, seeing the front pages of our newspapers this week, I am in no doubt this will all be anyone else’s fault than Brexit Boy “because he allows me not to have to think too much and legitimatise my baser instincts”.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

posted on 14/4/20

"How can anyone think this government are doing a good job?"

Honestly I think it's a way to protect their own mental well-being. They voted for this (anyone who starts with "I didn't vote Tory but they're doing a good job blah blah" is lying) and they were warned as were the government.

The government were warned about our lack of preparedness by their own experts several years ago (look it up), they were warned specifically about Covid-19 in early January by what was happening in China, they were warned later on by what was happening in Italy - they failed on so many levels, they have blood all over their hands.

To be clear, anyone who thinks they've done a good job is either utterly brain dead or can't face up to the fact their vote has lead to thousands of unnecessary deaths.

posted on 14/4/20

2016 - NHS run Exercise Cygnus which was a three-day training exercise intended to determine readiness for a novel respiratory influenza pandemic. This finds that it is greatest risk to the NHS (alongside flooding surprisingly, which had funding cut in the following years). It also finds that there is a risk to supply of materials in such a crisis.

This report was obviously buried and only short executive summaries can be found mixed in with other things (i.e. annual reviews).

2020 - There was no way any government could have been prepared for this pandemic. The PPE shortages can not be helped. It is impossible to foresee this type of thing.

This government has a trend of not releasing reports which could cast them in a negative light. Did the Russia report ever get issued?

comment by Chronic (U3423)

posted on 14/4/20

government haven't been good but i went for a jog round Edmonton on Saturday and every caaant was there chilling out. groups of 10-12 polish or Turkish guys just there chilling, using the outdoor gym, and loads more people having picnics.

facking pricksssss. cant blame the too government much when people don't listen anyway and just do whatever they want. i dread to think how many BBQs parties there were across the country this weekend. thick caaants.

comment by Chronic (U3423)

posted on 14/4/20

comment by Tottenham Chronic (U3423)
posted 0 seconds ago
government haven't been good but i went for a jog round Edmonton on Saturday and every caaant was there chilling out. groups of 10-12 polish or Turkish guys just there chilling, using the outdoor gym, and loads more people having picnics.

facking pricksssss. cant blame the too government much when people don't listen anyway and just do whatever they want. i dread to think how many BBQs parties there were across the country this weekend. thick caaants.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pymmes Park this was... if anyone knows the area.

comment by TUX (U5315)

posted on 14/4/20

comment by Tarrico_sees_red (U5595)
posted 53 minutes ago
This is what happens when you vote for proven liars and spivs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They all lie, this is why 'we the people' continue to get poorer year on year. We've had over 30yrs of it now.
Both parties have been as complicit as the other during this period.
Voting is designed to make many believe that they actually matter.
Sadly the facts say otherwise.

posted on 14/4/20

comment by The Mighty Tottenham Hotspur. (U7858)
posted 1 hour, 52 minutes ago
comment by LukaBrasi Jose IN (U22178)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Mighty Tottenham Hotspur. (U7858)
posted 5 seconds ago
It’s so easy to be wise in hindsight.

This is unprecedented in our lives, however South Korea has had experience of Bird flu and SARS and was somewhat prepared for this type of event.

I don’t believe the Chinese death numbers at all, probably 10s of thousands higher than published.

We have the 2nd highest population in Europe on a relatively small island so it’s likely we will have a higher death rate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets have a party then shall we?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No - not at all. But give some credit for mobilising and building 5 Nightingale hospitals in a few weeks which has meant the NHS is coping for the time being.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Slightly misleading to say they built five hospitals in a few weeks. They only basically fitted out existing buildings. With the help of the army, that was not that difficult a task.

posted on 14/4/20

comment by LukaBrasi Jose IN (U22178)
posted 1 hour, 48 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 19 seconds ago
Can add at least another couple of thousand to that when you add in the care home deaths.

An absolute scandal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They way the Terrorist I mean Tories hide the amount of total deaths is a scandal in itself. They only release figures from deaths within the NHS.
---------------------------------------------------------------------I
This is the case with daily figure but they are amended to include all reported C19 deaths weekly

posted on 14/4/20

comment by Tottenham Chronic (U3423)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Tottenham Chronic (U3423)
posted 0 seconds ago
government haven't been good but i went for a jog round Edmonton on Saturday and every caaant was there chilling out. groups of 10-12 polish or Turkish guys just there chilling, using the outdoor gym, and loads more people having picnics.

facking pricksssss. cant blame the too government much when people don't listen anyway and just do whatever they want. i dread to think how many BBQs parties there were across the country this weekend. thick caaants.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pymmes Park this was... if anyone knows the area.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quite close to me Chronic

I run in Broomfield Park in palmers green and sometimes in Alexandra Park.

There have been groups of Albanian (I think, maybe Greek or Turkish) lads loitering around there

posted on 14/4/20

comment by Tottenham Chronic (U3423)
posted 20 minutes ago
government haven't been good but i went for a jog round Edmonton on Saturday and every caaant was there chilling out. groups of 10-12 polish or Turkish guys just there chilling, using the outdoor gym, and loads more people having picnics.

facking pricksssss. cant blame the too government much when people don't listen anyway and just do whatever they want. i dread to think how many BBQs parties there were across the country this weekend. thick caaants.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I said to my wife that the locals around Tottenham wouldn`t be taking any notice of what they were being told by the Government. The Government`s own fault really for ostracising large sections of the country over the past 10 years. They frankly don`t believe anything they are told anymore, and will just do their own thing.

posted on 14/4/20

comment by Tottenham Chronic (U3423)
posted 24 minutes ago
comment by Tottenham Chronic (U3423)
posted 0 seconds ago
government haven't been good but i went for a jog round Edmonton on Saturday and every caaant was there chilling out. groups of 10-12 polish or Turkish guys just there chilling, using the outdoor gym, and loads more people having picnics.

facking pricksssss. cant blame the too government much when people don't listen anyway and just do whatever they want. i dread to think how many BBQs parties there were across the country this weekend. thick caaants.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pymmes Park this was... if anyone knows the area.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Know it well mate. Doesn`t really surprise me.

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