Right set of ponces you lot!

Man up



Couldn’t resist lads sorry !

On a serious note NJS makes some very valid points there, laddish behaviour is as much part of the make up of societies as is other traits!.. in a group of lads / men, you find the alpha in time, then they have challengers.. that’s at work, gyms, pubs.. that’s lads for you!

Bang on about leaders.. SAF and Roy Keane spring to mind too.. look at the success that had! Then you had Breckham, Scholes who played their part in the dynamics... it’s important for life!

To the article... Luke Chadwick jokes were funny at the time.. however reading that I honestly feel for the guy!.. very tough read as the OP suggests

Laddish behaviour is all well and good if you keep it in house with people you know aren't affected (and this I'm itself is not always easy to discern), but outside of that it is merely an excuse to belittle and attack people who don't fit in with your idea of how people should be.

Just because someone is fat, or thin, or a bit ugly, or lanky, or whatever doesn't give you the right to target them for that, especially if you don't know how your words will affect that person inside and out.

Honestly, justifying what is bullying by describing it as just the lads is sick, in my opinion. If that is ingrained in society then society clearly has an issue, which is good, as it is definitely a culture that is being moved away from.

We’re mixing up two different things here. Ultra competitive sportsmen ‘bullying people’ for sub par performances to get them to up their game, is a world of difference to picking on someone for their appearance for no purpose than to get a cheap laugh or make them feel bad.

One is part of life and survival of the fittest, the other is at best thoughtless, at worst cruel and unnecessary.

Lubo is right - behind closed doors within a group of friends is fine for banter but even then you need to be careful that someone isn’t laughing along but hurting inside.

I’m not a fan of society getting overly PC, people permanently offended on behalf of others, context getting lost... the snowflake generation ...but mental health problems are real and widespread so anything like this that makes people think twice before they open their mouth is a good thing in my opinion.

Great post Milky...

the thread has a blurred line somewhat here. a person being ridiculed on TV and other public outlets for his looks is wrong, I think we all know that but it didn't anybody for doing that at the time. the irony is he's a decent looking 39 year old, probebly much better looking currently than Hancock.

lets not forget that in 'ladish' groups, more often than not they are all mates, and know where the line is drawn.

In sports teams, another blurred line of the thread, then you must have leaders, strong charactors that would 'bully' in terms of performance, but it has to be the right dynamic, you can't have 11 Roy Keanes, it would be carnage.. you need the alpha, his leutenants, and challengers to keep the dynamic fresh... this, is what I see as LIW's world wide joke about championship manager - and how teams can't just sign somebody without the correct personality to fit and expect it all to work. Imagine Man U signing Gatuso or Simeone to play along side Roy Keane, great player, but it would totally rip the dynamic, the team would split and I dare say the success of that team wouldn't be as much.

best thread in a while this one, for interesting.

I think you keep coming back to this football argument that doesn't really apply. Sure, Roy Keane may have been like that, but I don't see how that relates to social media/TV, away from the dressing room. I also think the necessity of this is absolutely baseless. Who do you think is the alpha leader/bully at Liverpool right now? What about Man City? They don't have an outward Roy Keane-like figure and are both undoubtedly fantastic teams.

As I said, I think this notion that laddish culture should excuse behaviour of this sort is in the past, and dying fast, whether you want to put that down to "emasculation" or the "snowflake generation" is up to you, but if people being more empathetic for others feelings and mental health is a bad thing then that just rightly confuses me.

to be lubes, Kompany was the alpha at City, you could actually see the difference in team perfomance without his presence in the dressing room.

not confusing it at all buy the way, I stated the various ways this thead has gone mate.

your last sentance I disagree with mate, as NJS states, have you ever heard a group of women talk about another women behind her back? - its just a trait.. and lads have their traits too. Its natural for certain behaviours to be present. honest question, when you'rer at the pub with your mates, tell me you don't banter?

First off, I don't go to the pub because I don't do large social gatherings except for football. I might go for a quiz, or when Leeds are on Sky, but that is by-the-by.

If the trait of your group is causing depression then it is a negative trait. Regardless of whether that is ingrained in your way of life. Just because something is a trait doesn't make it a positive thing.

I have nothing against banter amongst friends, as long as you know those friends can take it. What I have an issue with is when this is directed outwardly at others for their appearance, personality, individuality or whatever. That's not banter. That's just being mean-spirited.

As if happens, I don't think there should be an eradication of this in stands at football, but better education as to the effects on mental health should be provided from a young age, and also to footballers who go through it.

Vincent Kompany also never struck me as a dominating 'lad' type, either.

Also Lubes, in any group of people, there are leaders and people who slot in, and play position, its a social trait too... its present in the aminal kingdom and its present in humans..

This is totally fictional so I'm hoping you get it, as TWD fan (could be me talking bollox though but why did Rick become the leader of the Alexandrians, Negan, the saviours - Alpha, the whisperers - natrually certain people lead, they are the Alpha's (poor example mate, just trying to think about what you could relate to)

Vincent Kompany also never struck me as a dominating 'lad' type, either.

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agree with most of your post mate, but the above, Kompany was much the leader mate.. remeber that screemer he scored end of last season, before he struck it, Kun shouted at him not to shoot.. in his interview afterwards Kompany said.. "I'm the captain, I will shout if I want to shout, I will not have anybody telling me otherwise" - true story

For what it's worth I hate how Rick became the leader of Alexandria after like five minutes of being there

I also don't see the correlation between being a leader and being, pardon my french, a d!ck. You can be a leader of men without constantly looking to disparage others for personal traits. And that's not even really the point. What is the justification when you say something that makes a large girl cut herself, or when you cause someone to have mental health problems because they don't look like what you think they should? These aren't being a leader, and yet they are issues that absolutely happen and then get explained away by 'laddish' behaviour. This is not a good thing.

yeah agree with that mate - there's no justification, buts why its important to speak out, take yourself out of that group.

social madia these days makes it harder to do that, too

For what it's worth I hate how Rick became the leader of Alexandria after like five minutes of being there

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yeah thats true

Negan did it with bullying tactics

But because the idea of feeling anything is a weakness is consistently perpetuated people don't do that. If you remove yourself from a group then you get called a snowflake for letting stuff get to you, if not worse.

Mental health as a whole is not accepted enough in the modern day, through a mix of different reasons, which is a shame, because depression is a horrible thing for someone to have to go through, especially if they can't see the light of getting through it.

comment by The Spanish Italians - its all going to end in tears (U21595)
posted 1 minute ago
For what it's worth I hate how Rick became the leader of Alexandria after like five minutes of being there

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yeah thats true

Negan did it with bullying tactics
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I remember at some point Rick says that the current Alexandrians "don't know how to survive". This is rubbish! Theyve been here from the start, basically untouched, whilst you've had at least two wars by this point, lost countless people, and had your last settled settlement destroyed. And after he arrives Alexandria goes down the pan.

Rick needs to take a long hard look at himself in the mirror.

- to be fair, if Negan had got Alexandria before Rick, they would of all been speaking Negan.

you leave Rick alone Lubes, you and I will be falling out

Rick is great except for like three seasons where he's terrible.

Lubo, this the last TWD post I promise, cos its a really interesting thread

what I did find interesting is watching the Michone ending, and how she COULD of ended up with Negan, and how posible it is to blur lines between good and bad..

this is a little bit like the "banter" in our debate of laddishness.. how people can fall into a group and take on their traits, justifying how you treat others.

and lets try and relate the Michone parodies to you nd I in this debate.. this is why we have slighltly different veiws on it, though I do get where you are coming from, but its kind of survival of the world around you.

for instance as you have stated, you don't hang in groups of lads so that certain trait behaviour is more alien to you, where as I worked in the Motor trade for a long time until a few years ago, very male dominated, boxing gyms and rugby clubs.. even now, the lads at my current work (before lockdown) w'd all hang out around the pool table in the lunch room and take the p 1 ss out of each other.

I'm not saying your wrong, there is no justification to 'bully' if you sense somebody can't take it... but everybody is trying to survive in there own world, so you'll have many differences of what is 'right, or 'wrong'


who knew TWD would be so inspirational

So, bullying and leading!..

Question!..

Who do you think the better leader was, Keane or Radebe?..

You had one that broke a leg of someone he thought fouled him!.....Bully?.

And you had the other that played as good without bullying but was well respected because he earned it, not because people were afraid of him!.

I'm sorry but I don't buy trying to survive as an excuse to attack other people. I think that is incredibly selfish, putting your own need to belittle others over other peoples own attempts to survive. If you don't know what impact your words are going to have on someone, then don't say them. I don't accept what it was like 20 years ago, or laddish behaviour, or comparisons to a psycho like Roy Keane as justifications for that.

Bullying is far too institutionalised within our culture, and that is the inherent problem. Just because it has happened for years doesn't mean it should carry on. This is true of plenty of things that serve as a blight on society and humanity.

Lubes, sorry mate I think you've mis-understood what I've said, or what I meant... I'm not saying going around being nasty to people is laddish at all. What I meant was, if you're in a group of lads that are 'lively' shall we say, you give as good as you get... you adapt to that culture and are more understanding to laddish banter.. which, as you're not in that enviroment you wouldn't 'survive' in that group very well....

The Roy Keane comparison is a totally different example, for a totally different situation, that was talking sports teams and leaders.. like him or hate him, he's been the best (or most succesful) captian of our generation.

So where do you draw the line mate? - thats the key here, and in what situation?

comment by LufcGermany (U6066)
posted 1 hour, 30 minutes ago

So, bullying and leading!..

Question!..

Who do you think the better leader was, Keane or Radebe?..

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Germany, in sports terms you have to look at the success surely - Radebe is one of my all time hero's on a sports pitch... but there's no comparing him to Roy Keane, in terms of success.

that sounds bad, readin it back.. but that Man U team were so succesful, I've lost count how many times I dsaid before the start of a season that Man U don't even seem that strong, but yet 9 months later they were champions.. it was all to do with dynamics, a bully manager, who had aan alpha male captian, players that fall in line and play position.

its not all about being a bully, I grant you, Kompany was never a bully, but he was a leader, totally ruled the dressing room... he hardly played due to injury but was alwasy there, as a leader... when he left, I think City struggled - struggling for City is losing over a ahnd full of games in a season and coming second, despite having the best (on paper team)

I saw this thread had jumped to 47 comments and thought it must have got lively.

But no, just a (great) discussion about varying views.

Lubo … I actually think you make some great points. I know I've grown up from within a generation(s), culture, background etc..... take your pick of the reason, that meant in some areas insecurities (about looks/wealth/intelligence/sexuality etc...), fragility or even depression were seen as weaknesses.

A lot of the above I think is very much on the wane, and that's a good thing. Probably a long way to go still, but i'm sure society will get there.

interestingly Roy Keane had a running with Van Der Sar when he first joing Man U.. a new guy who had success at other clubs challenged the alpha in team a meeting once, to which the whole dressing room fell silent with awkwardness...


G.Neville said it was like a lion from another pride challenging the dominant male.. and the team began to split, wondering if a new era was about to start.

human dynamics, are not too dis-similar to traits in the animal kingdom. the earth still spins, and this fight for top spot within our groups will be forever - like or not

VOF... totally agree, brilliant thread, well conducted by everyone too I think