has everybody else fergie vouched for got an interview?
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 57 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
So let’s try to be productive.
What are the solutions being put forward?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to see coaching courses, referees courses and education in general made far more accessible to lower income households.
Too much money leaves the sport in the form of wages and agents fees, currently.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For sure, in Germany you have PE teachers in schools who have their UEFA licences. If money that leaves the game as you say could be diverted towards making the process cheaper and easier for young coaches to get badges.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
So let’s try to be productive.
What are the solutions being put forward?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to see coaching courses, referees courses and education in general made far more accessible to lower income households.
Too much money leaves the sport in the form of wages and agents fees, currently.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This plus the Rooney rule
Ok good this is really good. Especially like Winston’s ideas above.
Maybe mandate footballers/football managers to spend time also training/educating etc? I know many players & managers already help but a mandate would increase that a lot
comment by kneerash-23 Cara Gold (U6876)
posted 23 minutes ago
https://www.thesoccerstore.co.uk/blog/latest-news/is-the-cost-of-an-fa-coaching-badge-in-england-hurting-the-national-game/
Not the same article but a suggestion that cost is a problem in the UK (3k v 700 in Germany for example), that's a blocker right there although it impacts everyone who hasn't got the money to pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow that’s a very big factor thanks for finding and posting. 4x more expensive wow
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 8 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
So let’s try to be productive.
What are the solutions being put forward?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to see coaching courses, referees courses and education in general made far more accessible to lower income households.
Too much money leaves the sport in the form of wages and agents fees, currently.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This plus the Rooney rule
Ok good this is really good. Especially like Winston’s ideas above.
Maybe mandate footballers/football managers to spend time also training/educating etc? I know many players & managers already help but a mandate would increase that a lot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks mate.
Unfortunately this is very long term and 15-20 years from seeing any tangible benefit, so you're right, the Rooney rule and things like it will help generate a more immediate change - along with helping to inspire young people.
I also think there's an opportunity within the gaming industry and it would be for the Premier League to partner with those sorts of businesses - but whether the motivation for that exists is debatable.
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 minute ago
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that statistically accurate or just a perception?
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 minute ago
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that statistically accurate or just a perception?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly a perception but there doesn’t seem to be that many black goalkeepers around.
Look at the PL and the majority of first choice goalkeepers are white and generally countries that would have mixed races often tend to have white keepers.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by kneerash-23 Cara Gold (U6876)
posted 23 minutes ago
https://www.thesoccerstore.co.uk/blog/latest-news/is-the-cost-of-an-fa-coaching-badge-in-england-hurting-the-national-game/
Not the same article but a suggestion that cost is a problem in the UK (3k v 700 in Germany for example), that's a blocker right there although it impacts everyone who hasn't got the money to pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow that’s a very big factor thanks for finding and posting. 4x more expensive wow
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If players play their cards right, normally their final club will pay for their coaching badges. A guy who works with me is currently going through them and he only played semi-pro, yet his club pay for it.
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by kneerash-23 Cara Gold (U6876)
posted 23 minutes ago
https://www.thesoccerstore.co.uk/blog/latest-news/is-the-cost-of-an-fa-coaching-badge-in-england-hurting-the-national-game/
Not the same article but a suggestion that cost is a problem in the UK (3k v 700 in Germany for example), that's a blocker right there although it impacts everyone who hasn't got the money to pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow that’s a very big factor thanks for finding and posting. 4x more expensive wow
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If players play their cards right, normally their final club will pay for their coaching badges. A guy who works with me is currently going through them and he only played semi-pro, yet his club pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not remotely the norm, TOOR.
There are only a small number of actual 'semi-pro' clubs out there... it's usually a term used by non league footballers seeking to make their level of football sound better than it is.
Non league football is a constant battle for survival and in my experience, very few clubs can afford to support players through this process.
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 minute ago
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that statistically accurate or just a perception?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly a perception but there doesn’t seem to be that many black goalkeepers around.
Look at the PL and the majority of first choice goalkeepers are white and generally countries that would have mixed races often tend to have white keepers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeh, would be interested to see the data on it.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by kneerash-23 Cara Gold (U6876)
posted 23 minutes ago
https://www.thesoccerstore.co.uk/blog/latest-news/is-the-cost-of-an-fa-coaching-badge-in-england-hurting-the-national-game/
Not the same article but a suggestion that cost is a problem in the UK (3k v 700 in Germany for example), that's a blocker right there although it impacts everyone who hasn't got the money to pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow that’s a very big factor thanks for finding and posting. 4x more expensive wow
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If players play their cards right, normally their final club will pay for their coaching badges. A guy who works with me is currently going through them and he only played semi-pro, yet his club pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not remotely the norm, TOOR.
There are only a small number of actual 'semi-pro' clubs out there... it's usually a term used by non league footballers seeking to make their level of football sound better than it is.
Non league football is a constant battle for survival and in my experience, very few clubs can afford to support players through this process.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He plays in the Irish league so slightly different but this is not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that if clubs lower down the ladder can afford to pay for coaching badges for players in their final years, clubs in the first few divisions can certainly afford to do it.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 minute ago
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that statistically accurate or just a perception?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly a perception but there doesn’t seem to be that many black goalkeepers around.
Look at the PL and the majority of first choice goalkeepers are white and generally countries that would have mixed races often tend to have white keepers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeh, would be interested to see the data on it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It would be.
Take the likes of France, Portugal, England, Brazil even Germany these days who have many black and white players and their first choice keepers are all white.
Even for United Tim Howard is the only black keeper who has been number 1 and he ranks well down the list.
Like the manager situation I’d love to know if it’s down to lack of ability or opportunity.
Also, in regards to the players we're talking about, the likes of Campbell, Cole, Ince etc. They're millionaires, so I doubt the cost of coaching badges held them back.
If regards to those who weren't professional, it is not often they make it to top jobs in management, regardless of colour.
There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
Unfortunately, I think you'll find finances are actually pretty terrible for most clubs outside the top divisions.
This current situation has only served to highlight just how close to the edge these clubs are running, week in, week out.
I don't think we're just talking about PL managers, are we? Coaches, physios, fitness staff... there's an under representation across the board.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 hours, 42 minutes ago
OP - with respect, you need to stop thinking about this as blatant racism and start thinking about the subtleties of the issue.
I don't think anyone is saying that a club would sack someone just because they're black.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The issue is whether many clubs would or could actually employ a black manager...let alone sack them
Where are these people...?
Interesting debate on talksport about black managers. They had players saying that many black players don't take badges because it's thought what's the point won't get a job anyway.
As a POC I found this in my own field of work. Basically people not applying because of the thought "what's the point"
Think Winston said it but things like the Rooney rule isn't about what we have now, this minute. It's almost a preparation for a few years time. As in giving confidence to future candidates from certain backgrounds and them not simply seeing it as not an option.
In that sense the Rooney rule doesn't go far enough imo. It's not simply about having quotas in terms of applications. In South Africa the teams (cricket anyway) had to have a certain amount of black players. And sure there was some discussion about are they there on merit and even that other good white players may have missed out. On a simple level I can see how that appears wrong. But in perspective of what was historically the case in SA in terms of apartheid it was an extreme measures taken to address extreme situation and it bore fruit after a few years.
Imo in a few years things like the Rooney rule can be done away with. Because if after say 5/10 years it's still needed then the problem was something else.
Sterling's comments make no sense to me whatsoever and tbf, neither does this whole process in general. What are these people expecting? A new law is to be announced tomorrow that will end the crisis? No. Its a cultural change that will take generations to accomplish because there are still people living in the 70's/80's where racism was not a problem. It will take a few generations to sort this out and it will do.
I don't think any PL club is going to appoint the likes of Chris Powell or Keith Curle when they don't do well down in the bottom 2 divisions, just because they're black. If you want a chance, be a better manager that's the same for everyone. I think experience has a lot to do with it as well and I'm sure we will see more black managers in the future because the opportunities have opened up to them, rightfully so, much more in the last 10-20 years or so. Like I've said above though, its a generational change. Now that equal opportunity is there for black/white coaches, what's the big uproar.
I actually find some Sterling's comments racist within itself. Taken from the BBC website, he says "there aren't a lot of faces we can relate to and have conversations with". Is that not racist in itself? Like the cliche seems to be these days, 'what difference does skin colour make?' and you could say exactly the same here.
Same with Campbell and Cole. Ever thought Cole doesn't want to become a manager yet? Or maybe clubs are reluctant to appoint Campbell because he's so bitter. Such as signing the winding up petition given to Southend or if he decides to go AWOL again. That's just unprofessional and do you think clubs really want somebody like that representing their club? Chances are, no.
comment by Jinja Ninja (U19849)
posted 28 minutes ago
Interesting debate on talksport about black managers. They had players saying that many black players don't take badges because it's thought what's the point won't get a job anyway.
As a POC I found this in my own field of work. Basically people not applying because of the thought "what's the point"
Think Winston said it but things like the Rooney rule isn't about what we have now, this minute. It's almost a preparation for a few years time. As in giving confidence to future candidates from certain backgrounds and them not simply seeing it as not an option.
In that sense the Rooney rule doesn't go far enough imo. It's not simply about having quotas in terms of applications. In South Africa the teams (cricket anyway) had to have a certain amount of black players. And sure there was some discussion about are they there on merit and even that other good white players may have missed out. On a simple level I can see how that appears wrong. But in perspective of what was historically the case in SA in terms of apartheid it was an extreme measures taken to address extreme situation and it bore fruit after a few years.
Imo in a few years things like the Rooney rule can be done away with. Because if after say 5/10 years it's still needed then the problem was something else.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to be totally against positive discrimination but reading more on it, my view has changed. So what if sometimes there's a chance somebody might get in before somebody with more ability? If it the long run, it achieves equality, it has been worth it.
Interesting question about goalkeepers above. I remember hearing a discussion on radio or TV a few years ago in which it was suggested that unconscious stereotyping (the old 'physical not cerebral' stereotype) might be leading coaches to see emerging black players as athletes rather than technicians / tacticians, and therefore to perceive them as budding strikers, wingers or centre halves, where speed and strength are of the essence, rather than e.g. creative midfielders. I think that has perhaps begun to shift but historically there has been a bit of a pattern of that sort.
Viera may break the mould. Perhaps he'll be given the chance at City.
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 5 minutes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to be totally against positive discrimination but reading more on it, my view has changed. So what if sometimes there's a chance somebody might get in before somebody with more ability? If it the long run, it achieves equality, it has been worth it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a difficult one mate in all honesty. I do understand the reasoning of some folk against PD. I really do. But often it's not put into context for me.
It's not simply a case of doing it for the sake of doing it. Although I do think some movements may fall into this category. It's taking into account other factors, eg apartheid, slavery etc. Where it's not just the perpetrators who have a certain mentality but the "victims" also have a certain mentality. And it's often the victims mentality that needs the work to change. So I'd black players are thinking what's the point in terms of management then that has to change. For that to change future generations need role models that have done it. So it has to be a long term plan for it to come to fruition
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 hours, 42 minutes ago
OP - with respect, you need to stop thinking about this as blatant racism and start thinking about the subtleties of the issue.
I don't think anyone is saying that a club would sack someone just because they're black.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The issue is whether many clubs would or could actually employ a black manager...let alone sack them
Where are these people...?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That really isn't the issue.
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Jinja Ninja (U19849)
posted 28 minutes ago
Interesting debate on talksport about black managers. They had players saying that many black players don't take badges because it's thought what's the point won't get a job anyway.
As a POC I found this in my own field of work. Basically people not applying because of the thought "what's the point"
Think Winston said it but things like the Rooney rule isn't about what we have now, this minute. It's almost a preparation for a few years time. As in giving confidence to future candidates from certain backgrounds and them not simply seeing it as not an option.
In that sense the Rooney rule doesn't go far enough imo. It's not simply about having quotas in terms of applications. In South Africa the teams (cricket anyway) had to have a certain amount of black players. And sure there was some discussion about are they there on merit and even that other good white players may have missed out. On a simple level I can see how that appears wrong. But in perspective of what was historically the case in SA in terms of apartheid it was an extreme measures taken to address extreme situation and it bore fruit after a few years.
Imo in a few years things like the Rooney rule can be done away with. Because if after say 5/10 years it's still needed then the problem was something else.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to be totally against positive discrimination but reading more on it, my view has changed. So what if sometimes there's a chance somebody might get in before somebody with more ability? If it the long run, it achieves equality, it has been worth it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure it will work in the long run. It's going from one extreme to another, and usually creates other problems. Has it even worked in the NFL?
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 hour, 53 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 minute ago
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that statistically accurate or just a perception?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly a perception but there doesn’t seem to be that many black goalkeepers around.
Look at the PL and the majority of first choice goalkeepers are white and generally countries that would have mixed races often tend to have white keepers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ajax have two black keepers.
Maybe it's to do with their footballing philosophy, which differs from most teams.
Sign in if you want to comment
Black managers
Page 5 of 13
6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10
posted on 9/6/20
has everybody else fergie vouched for got an interview?
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 57 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
So let’s try to be productive.
What are the solutions being put forward?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to see coaching courses, referees courses and education in general made far more accessible to lower income households.
Too much money leaves the sport in the form of wages and agents fees, currently.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For sure, in Germany you have PE teachers in schools who have their UEFA licences. If money that leaves the game as you say could be diverted towards making the process cheaper and easier for young coaches to get badges.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
So let’s try to be productive.
What are the solutions being put forward?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to see coaching courses, referees courses and education in general made far more accessible to lower income households.
Too much money leaves the sport in the form of wages and agents fees, currently.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This plus the Rooney rule
Ok good this is really good. Especially like Winston’s ideas above.
Maybe mandate footballers/football managers to spend time also training/educating etc? I know many players & managers already help but a mandate would increase that a lot
posted on 9/6/20
comment by kneerash-23 Cara Gold (U6876)
posted 23 minutes ago
https://www.thesoccerstore.co.uk/blog/latest-news/is-the-cost-of-an-fa-coaching-badge-in-england-hurting-the-national-game/
Not the same article but a suggestion that cost is a problem in the UK (3k v 700 in Germany for example), that's a blocker right there although it impacts everyone who hasn't got the money to pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow that’s a very big factor thanks for finding and posting. 4x more expensive wow
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 8 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
So let’s try to be productive.
What are the solutions being put forward?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to see coaching courses, referees courses and education in general made far more accessible to lower income households.
Too much money leaves the sport in the form of wages and agents fees, currently.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This plus the Rooney rule
Ok good this is really good. Especially like Winston’s ideas above.
Maybe mandate footballers/football managers to spend time also training/educating etc? I know many players & managers already help but a mandate would increase that a lot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks mate.
Unfortunately this is very long term and 15-20 years from seeing any tangible benefit, so you're right, the Rooney rule and things like it will help generate a more immediate change - along with helping to inspire young people.
I also think there's an opportunity within the gaming industry and it would be for the Premier League to partner with those sorts of businesses - but whether the motivation for that exists is debatable.
posted on 9/6/20
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 minute ago
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that statistically accurate or just a perception?
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 minute ago
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that statistically accurate or just a perception?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly a perception but there doesn’t seem to be that many black goalkeepers around.
Look at the PL and the majority of first choice goalkeepers are white and generally countries that would have mixed races often tend to have white keepers.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by kneerash-23 Cara Gold (U6876)
posted 23 minutes ago
https://www.thesoccerstore.co.uk/blog/latest-news/is-the-cost-of-an-fa-coaching-badge-in-england-hurting-the-national-game/
Not the same article but a suggestion that cost is a problem in the UK (3k v 700 in Germany for example), that's a blocker right there although it impacts everyone who hasn't got the money to pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow that’s a very big factor thanks for finding and posting. 4x more expensive wow
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If players play their cards right, normally their final club will pay for their coaching badges. A guy who works with me is currently going through them and he only played semi-pro, yet his club pay for it.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by kneerash-23 Cara Gold (U6876)
posted 23 minutes ago
https://www.thesoccerstore.co.uk/blog/latest-news/is-the-cost-of-an-fa-coaching-badge-in-england-hurting-the-national-game/
Not the same article but a suggestion that cost is a problem in the UK (3k v 700 in Germany for example), that's a blocker right there although it impacts everyone who hasn't got the money to pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow that’s a very big factor thanks for finding and posting. 4x more expensive wow
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If players play their cards right, normally their final club will pay for their coaching badges. A guy who works with me is currently going through them and he only played semi-pro, yet his club pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not remotely the norm, TOOR.
There are only a small number of actual 'semi-pro' clubs out there... it's usually a term used by non league footballers seeking to make their level of football sound better than it is.
Non league football is a constant battle for survival and in my experience, very few clubs can afford to support players through this process.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 minute ago
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that statistically accurate or just a perception?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly a perception but there doesn’t seem to be that many black goalkeepers around.
Look at the PL and the majority of first choice goalkeepers are white and generally countries that would have mixed races often tend to have white keepers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeh, would be interested to see the data on it.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by kneerash-23 Cara Gold (U6876)
posted 23 minutes ago
https://www.thesoccerstore.co.uk/blog/latest-news/is-the-cost-of-an-fa-coaching-badge-in-england-hurting-the-national-game/
Not the same article but a suggestion that cost is a problem in the UK (3k v 700 in Germany for example), that's a blocker right there although it impacts everyone who hasn't got the money to pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow that’s a very big factor thanks for finding and posting. 4x more expensive wow
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If players play their cards right, normally their final club will pay for their coaching badges. A guy who works with me is currently going through them and he only played semi-pro, yet his club pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not remotely the norm, TOOR.
There are only a small number of actual 'semi-pro' clubs out there... it's usually a term used by non league footballers seeking to make their level of football sound better than it is.
Non league football is a constant battle for survival and in my experience, very few clubs can afford to support players through this process.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He plays in the Irish league so slightly different but this is not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that if clubs lower down the ladder can afford to pay for coaching badges for players in their final years, clubs in the first few divisions can certainly afford to do it.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 minute ago
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that statistically accurate or just a perception?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly a perception but there doesn’t seem to be that many black goalkeepers around.
Look at the PL and the majority of first choice goalkeepers are white and generally countries that would have mixed races often tend to have white keepers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeh, would be interested to see the data on it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It would be.
Take the likes of France, Portugal, England, Brazil even Germany these days who have many black and white players and their first choice keepers are all white.
Even for United Tim Howard is the only black keeper who has been number 1 and he ranks well down the list.
Like the manager situation I’d love to know if it’s down to lack of ability or opportunity.
posted on 9/6/20
Also, in regards to the players we're talking about, the likes of Campbell, Cole, Ince etc. They're millionaires, so I doubt the cost of coaching badges held them back.
If regards to those who weren't professional, it is not often they make it to top jobs in management, regardless of colour.
posted on 9/6/20
There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
Unfortunately, I think you'll find finances are actually pretty terrible for most clubs outside the top divisions.
This current situation has only served to highlight just how close to the edge these clubs are running, week in, week out.
I don't think we're just talking about PL managers, are we? Coaches, physios, fitness staff... there's an under representation across the board.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 hours, 42 minutes ago
OP - with respect, you need to stop thinking about this as blatant racism and start thinking about the subtleties of the issue.
I don't think anyone is saying that a club would sack someone just because they're black.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The issue is whether many clubs would or could actually employ a black manager...let alone sack them
Where are these people...?
posted on 9/6/20
Interesting debate on talksport about black managers. They had players saying that many black players don't take badges because it's thought what's the point won't get a job anyway.
As a POC I found this in my own field of work. Basically people not applying because of the thought "what's the point"
Think Winston said it but things like the Rooney rule isn't about what we have now, this minute. It's almost a preparation for a few years time. As in giving confidence to future candidates from certain backgrounds and them not simply seeing it as not an option.
In that sense the Rooney rule doesn't go far enough imo. It's not simply about having quotas in terms of applications. In South Africa the teams (cricket anyway) had to have a certain amount of black players. And sure there was some discussion about are they there on merit and even that other good white players may have missed out. On a simple level I can see how that appears wrong. But in perspective of what was historically the case in SA in terms of apartheid it was an extreme measures taken to address extreme situation and it bore fruit after a few years.
Imo in a few years things like the Rooney rule can be done away with. Because if after say 5/10 years it's still needed then the problem was something else.
posted on 9/6/20
Sterling's comments make no sense to me whatsoever and tbf, neither does this whole process in general. What are these people expecting? A new law is to be announced tomorrow that will end the crisis? No. Its a cultural change that will take generations to accomplish because there are still people living in the 70's/80's where racism was not a problem. It will take a few generations to sort this out and it will do.
I don't think any PL club is going to appoint the likes of Chris Powell or Keith Curle when they don't do well down in the bottom 2 divisions, just because they're black. If you want a chance, be a better manager that's the same for everyone. I think experience has a lot to do with it as well and I'm sure we will see more black managers in the future because the opportunities have opened up to them, rightfully so, much more in the last 10-20 years or so. Like I've said above though, its a generational change. Now that equal opportunity is there for black/white coaches, what's the big uproar.
I actually find some Sterling's comments racist within itself. Taken from the BBC website, he says "there aren't a lot of faces we can relate to and have conversations with". Is that not racist in itself? Like the cliche seems to be these days, 'what difference does skin colour make?' and you could say exactly the same here.
Same with Campbell and Cole. Ever thought Cole doesn't want to become a manager yet? Or maybe clubs are reluctant to appoint Campbell because he's so bitter. Such as signing the winding up petition given to Southend or if he decides to go AWOL again. That's just unprofessional and do you think clubs really want somebody like that representing their club? Chances are, no.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Jinja Ninja (U19849)
posted 28 minutes ago
Interesting debate on talksport about black managers. They had players saying that many black players don't take badges because it's thought what's the point won't get a job anyway.
As a POC I found this in my own field of work. Basically people not applying because of the thought "what's the point"
Think Winston said it but things like the Rooney rule isn't about what we have now, this minute. It's almost a preparation for a few years time. As in giving confidence to future candidates from certain backgrounds and them not simply seeing it as not an option.
In that sense the Rooney rule doesn't go far enough imo. It's not simply about having quotas in terms of applications. In South Africa the teams (cricket anyway) had to have a certain amount of black players. And sure there was some discussion about are they there on merit and even that other good white players may have missed out. On a simple level I can see how that appears wrong. But in perspective of what was historically the case in SA in terms of apartheid it was an extreme measures taken to address extreme situation and it bore fruit after a few years.
Imo in a few years things like the Rooney rule can be done away with. Because if after say 5/10 years it's still needed then the problem was something else.
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I used to be totally against positive discrimination but reading more on it, my view has changed. So what if sometimes there's a chance somebody might get in before somebody with more ability? If it the long run, it achieves equality, it has been worth it.
posted on 9/6/20
Interesting question about goalkeepers above. I remember hearing a discussion on radio or TV a few years ago in which it was suggested that unconscious stereotyping (the old 'physical not cerebral' stereotype) might be leading coaches to see emerging black players as athletes rather than technicians / tacticians, and therefore to perceive them as budding strikers, wingers or centre halves, where speed and strength are of the essence, rather than e.g. creative midfielders. I think that has perhaps begun to shift but historically there has been a bit of a pattern of that sort.
posted on 9/6/20
Viera may break the mould. Perhaps he'll be given the chance at City.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 5 minutes
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I used to be totally against positive discrimination but reading more on it, my view has changed. So what if sometimes there's a chance somebody might get in before somebody with more ability? If it the long run, it achieves equality, it has been worth it.
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It's a difficult one mate in all honesty. I do understand the reasoning of some folk against PD. I really do. But often it's not put into context for me.
It's not simply a case of doing it for the sake of doing it. Although I do think some movements may fall into this category. It's taking into account other factors, eg apartheid, slavery etc. Where it's not just the perpetrators who have a certain mentality but the "victims" also have a certain mentality. And it's often the victims mentality that needs the work to change. So I'd black players are thinking what's the point in terms of management then that has to change. For that to change future generations need role models that have done it. So it has to be a long term plan for it to come to fruition
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 hours, 42 minutes ago
OP - with respect, you need to stop thinking about this as blatant racism and start thinking about the subtleties of the issue.
I don't think anyone is saying that a club would sack someone just because they're black.
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The issue is whether many clubs would or could actually employ a black manager...let alone sack them
Where are these people...?
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That really isn't the issue.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Jinja Ninja (U19849)
posted 28 minutes ago
Interesting debate on talksport about black managers. They had players saying that many black players don't take badges because it's thought what's the point won't get a job anyway.
As a POC I found this in my own field of work. Basically people not applying because of the thought "what's the point"
Think Winston said it but things like the Rooney rule isn't about what we have now, this minute. It's almost a preparation for a few years time. As in giving confidence to future candidates from certain backgrounds and them not simply seeing it as not an option.
In that sense the Rooney rule doesn't go far enough imo. It's not simply about having quotas in terms of applications. In South Africa the teams (cricket anyway) had to have a certain amount of black players. And sure there was some discussion about are they there on merit and even that other good white players may have missed out. On a simple level I can see how that appears wrong. But in perspective of what was historically the case in SA in terms of apartheid it was an extreme measures taken to address extreme situation and it bore fruit after a few years.
Imo in a few years things like the Rooney rule can be done away with. Because if after say 5/10 years it's still needed then the problem was something else.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to be totally against positive discrimination but reading more on it, my view has changed. So what if sometimes there's a chance somebody might get in before somebody with more ability? If it the long run, it achieves equality, it has been worth it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure it will work in the long run. It's going from one extreme to another, and usually creates other problems. Has it even worked in the NFL?
posted on 9/6/20
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 hour, 53 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 1 minute ago
There’s very few quality black goalkeepers around also.
Is this down to lack of opportunities or the fact their isn’t that many top black goalkeepers?
Not exactly the same thing I know but a different perspective.
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Is that statistically accurate or just a perception?
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Possibly a perception but there doesn’t seem to be that many black goalkeepers around.
Look at the PL and the majority of first choice goalkeepers are white and generally countries that would have mixed races often tend to have white keepers.
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Ajax have two black keepers.
Maybe it's to do with their footballing philosophy, which differs from most teams.
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