comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 42 seconds ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 19 seconds ago
I’d imagine it would be easier to follow someone in the park, rather than go through the process of gender reassignment so they can be rapey in a public changing room.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yuhuh.
It's a quite bizarre stance that honestly didn't enter my head (no doubt because I am not a nonce).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're bearly a man with the nonsense you come out with.
His argument is nonsense anyway, you don't need reassignment, you'd just need to identify as a female.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Go on...
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 3 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Genuine question but how would you ever police it though?
I guarantee at some point in your life you've walked past, or been served by, or sat near a transgender person and had absolutely no idea.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 12 minutes ago
The implication of their argument is that trans women are rapists. Same people that will claim they aren’t transphobic and also say ‘not all men’.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Strawman argument—that's all you have.
The actual point is it'll give any man easier access to female safe spaces.
You don't actually think following social media extremists would enable you to use rational arguments, did you?
It’s not, that’s essentially what you are arguing. You just don’t want to admit it because it shows you to be bigoted.
Also saw this story yesterday which is kind of relevant.
https://www.fox19.com/2022/07/08/transgender-butler-county-man-says-group-beat-him-up-using-wrong-restroom/
Long story short, a FtM transgender man used the women's bathroom because he was told to do so by the establishment due to having female genitalia, and a woman ended up complaining that a man was in the women's restroom which resulted in him being beaten up.
Would seem they can't really win.
People act like there’s security in women’s toilets that stops men going in there anyway.
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 12 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Women’s bathrooms, of women:
66% very or quite comfortable
17% very or quite uncomfortable
15% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
Women’s refuges, of all respondents:
51% very or quite comfortable
24% very or quite uncomfortable
22% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
(Men also more likely to be uncomfortable than women.)
Overwhelmingly net positive in both cases.
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
b) following the data, and then given that both of those things align,
c) performing an immediate root-and-branch of domestic violence policy and domestic sexx abuse policy to better protect, help and support the hundreds of thousands of British women who have been or are being abused by their partners and former partners?
- Improving access to and availability of specialist policing units, healthcare and counselling/therapy
- Prioritising criminal cases involving domestic violence and abuse
- Investing in specialist prosecution units
- Reviewing burdens of proof in domestic violence and abuse cases
- Dedicating protected court time
- Doing more to protect women from former offenders
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all great, but you've dodged my points.
There are many issues to this, such as where do you draw the line? You don't know, you'll just bend with the wind and use logical fallacies to defend it.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
People act like there’s security in women’s toilets that stops men going in there anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen some buIlshit stuff on this site over the years but pretending to be worried about women's safety in public bathrooms is right up there.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 6 minutes ago
It’s not, that’s essentially what you are arguing. You just don’t want to admit it because it shows you to be bigoted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The majority of trans clearly aren't predatory just like non trans. You've just found yourself in a situation which you can't logically defend. Basically there isn't a single thing the far left will come up with that you won't defend. You probably think this is the majority opinion, but it isn't, you've just been duped.
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
b) following the data, and then given that both of those things align,
c) performing an immediate root-and-branch of domestic violence policy and domestic sexx abuse policy to better protect, help and support the hundreds of thousands of British women who have been or are being abused by their partners and former partners?
- Improving access to and availability of specialist policing units, healthcare and counselling/therapy
- Prioritising criminal cases involving domestic violence and abuse
- Investing in specialist prosecution units
- Reviewing burdens of proof in domestic violence and abuse cases
- Dedicating protected court time
- Doing more to protect women from former offenders
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all great, but you've dodged my points.
There are many issues to this, such as where do you draw the line? You don't know, you'll just bend with the wind and use logical fallacies to defend it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, what exactly do you mean by, “Where do you draw the line? “
There isn’t a sliding scale here. We’re talking about specific and distinct issues relating to trans rights, women’s rights and women’s safety (amongst other things), and trying to find the right balance that best protects and respects everybody.
If you want to talk logical fallacies, “Where do you draw the line? “ sounds a lot like a slippery slope argument, btw.
But if you have specific questions you want to pose, put them and ask for opinions. (Apologies if you’ve done this and I’ve missed them; I’ve been desperately trying to keep up with the new poster, Terry Munro.)
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
People act like there’s security in women’s toilets that stops men going in there anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen some buIlshit stuff on this site over the years but pretending to be worried about women's safety in public bathrooms is right up there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rapists are obviously ones to follow the rules. Telling them not to go into women’s toilets is clearly a massive deterrent.
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 12 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Women’s bathrooms, of women:
66% very or quite comfortable
17% very or quite uncomfortable
15% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
Women’s refuges, of all respondents:
51% very or quite comfortable
24% very or quite uncomfortable
22% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
(Men also more likely to be uncomfortable than women.)
Overwhelmingly net positive in both cases.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you are not listening to the indisputable fact that the figures have changed dramatically in only six years! If you had asked the question 20 years ago everyone would be comfortable because it was not an issue then!
And you are also ignoring the fact that 24% against something is a very significant number if it is indeed 24% of the UK population as you have claimed?
You talk about following the data but what are actually doing is skewing and misrepresenting the data to suit your arguement
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 6 minutes ago
It’s not, that’s essentially what you are arguing. You just don’t want to admit it because it shows you to be bigoted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The majority of trans clearly aren't predatory just like non trans. You've just found yourself in a situation which you can't logically defend. Basically there isn't a single thing the far left will come up with that you won't defend. You probably think this is the majority opinion, but it isn't, you've just been duped.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And you tried to accuse me of making strawmen.
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 3 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Genuine question but how would you ever police it though?
I guarantee at some point in your life you've walked past, or been served by, or sat near a transgender person and had absolutely no idea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea and have no real thoughts for or against. I just think it is extremely disingenuous to skew data to suit your own means
You still haven’t said if you believe that the majority of the uk population voted for Brexit?
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
b) following the data, and then given that both of those things align,
c) performing an immediate root-and-branch of domestic violence policy and domestic sexx abuse policy to better protect, help and support the hundreds of thousands of British women who have been or are being abused by their partners and former partners?
- Improving access to and availability of specialist policing units, healthcare and counselling/therapy
- Prioritising criminal cases involving domestic violence and abuse
- Investing in specialist prosecution units
- Reviewing burdens of proof in domestic violence and abuse cases
- Dedicating protected court time
- Doing more to protect women from former offenders
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all great, but you've dodged my points.
There are many issues to this, such as where do you draw the line? You don't know, you'll just bend with the wind and use logical fallacies to defend it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, what exactly do you mean by, “Where do you draw the line? “
There isn’t a sliding scale here. We’re talking about specific and distinct issues relating to trans rights, women’s rights and women’s safety (amongst other things), and trying to find the right balance that best protects and respects everybody.
If you want to talk logical fallacies, “Where do you draw the line? “ sounds a lot like a slippery slope argument, btw.
But if you have specific questions you want to pose, put them and ask for opinions. (Apologies if you’ve done this and I’ve missed them; I’ve been desperately trying to keep up with the new poster, Terry Munro.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are truly looking to find the right balance then it would be to protect the 24% of woman who would be uncomfortable having a trans person use their toilets? Unless of course you think that over 24% of the “uk population” are trans and will offended by it?
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 30 seconds ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 12 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Women’s bathrooms, of women:
66% very or quite comfortable
17% very or quite uncomfortable
15% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
Women’s refuges, of all respondents:
51% very or quite comfortable
24% very or quite uncomfortable
22% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
(Men also more likely to be uncomfortable than women.)
Overwhelmingly net positive in both cases.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you are not listening to the indisputable fact that the figures have changed dramatically in only six years! If you had asked the question 20 years ago everyone would be comfortable because it was not an issue then!
And you are also ignoring the fact that 24% against something is a very significant number if it is indeed 24% of the UK population as you have claimed?
You talk about following the data but what are actually doing is skewing and misrepresenting the data to suit your arguement
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have literally just posted the data up. People are free to make their own minds up about the data. Personally, I think it speaks (very strongly) for itself, and I encourage people to read the full report.
Here it is again: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/attitudes_to_transgender_people.pdf
Refuges is a more interesting and nuanced topic than bathrooms, I think.
We’re talking about places where cis and trans women alike arrive in vulnerable, scared, physically and psychologically injured, and desperately tired states.
Firstly, more are needed, more money is needed, and better access and visibility are needed, full stop.
Secondly, although many do fantastic and incredibly valuable work, they need help providing longer term solutions with better counselling and social support.
Thirdly, there’s absolutely a debate to be had about whether it might be beneficial for shelters to have provision for separate accommodation for yet-to-transition trans women where other guests have expressed a discomfort about sharing facilities with people with different genitalia.
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 11 minutes ago
This poll, as several others have done, shows a clear majority in favour of allowing trans women to use women’s bathrooms
¥+¥¥+
A majority of the poll. NOT a majority of the population as you have said. There is a clear difference, surely you can see that?
As to evidence to the contrary your own link shows that more and more woman have issues with trans being allowed in woman’s refuges and woman’s toilets. The trend is that more and more are concerned. There’s your evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you unaware of the concept of having a representative sample?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As a theory, or as a representation, Yes. But not as evidentiary proof as has been stated.
Do you think it is fair to say that the vast majority of the population of the UK voted for both Brexit and the tories at the last election?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting straw man.
This example refers to how people generally feel, and is captured by a representative survey of over 1600 people.
Your question is a straw man because it tries to make a comparison between what representative survey tells us people feel about an issue, and a record of an action (voting a certain way) that people took. Its not a valid comparison.
Presumably you were aiming for the idea that the vast majority supported brexit and the tories (eg does the voting represent the wider country) and the answer is quite factually no. The brexit vote got 52% which is not a vast majority. The tories got less than 50% which is not a majority whatsoever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So do you believe that the majority of the UK Population voted for Brexit?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, because we have concrete evidence that this isn't true. It is also entirely irrelevant as I have already explained to you (you don't seem to have grasped.
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
b) following the data, and then given that both of those things align,
c) performing an immediate root-and-branch of domestic violence policy and domestic sexx abuse policy to better protect, help and support the hundreds of thousands of British women who have been or are being abused by their partners and former partners?
- Improving access to and availability of specialist policing units, healthcare and counselling/therapy
- Prioritising criminal cases involving domestic violence and abuse
- Investing in specialist prosecution units
- Reviewing burdens of proof in domestic violence and abuse cases
- Dedicating protected court time
- Doing more to protect women from former offenders
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all great, but you've dodged my points.
There are many issues to this, such as where do you draw the line? You don't know, you'll just bend with the wind and use logical fallacies to defend it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, what exactly do you mean by, “Where do you draw the line? “
There isn’t a sliding scale here. We’re talking about specific and distinct issues relating to trans rights, women’s rights and women’s safety (amongst other things), and trying to find the right balance that best protects and respects everybody.
If you want to talk logical fallacies, “Where do you draw the line? “ sounds a lot like a slippery slope argument, btw.
But if you have specific questions you want to pose, put them and ask for opinions. (Apologies if you’ve done this and I’ve missed them; I’ve been desperately trying to keep up with the new poster, Terry Munro.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are truly looking to find the right balance then it would be to protect the 24% of woman who would be uncomfortable having a trans person use their toilets? Unless of course you think that over 24% of the “uk population” are trans and will offended by it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was 17%, not 24%.
And this isn’t a matter of who is or isn’t offended; nobody should be concerned about that. People will decide that they’re offended by all manner of things.
It’s a matter of rights and it’s a matter of protections.
this is a classic example of people wanting to be good or seen as good that they don't think about the wider impact of their choices
bathroom is one issue
sports is another
what is next?
the same people that will argue "ALL MEN ARE ATTACKERS " will happily welcome men who feel like women into women spaces because they don't want to be insensitive.
What about being sensitive to the women who are bold enough to say they want women only spaces to remain that. I guess these women are also bigots whose feelings or safety do not matter.
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 30 seconds ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 12 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Women’s bathrooms, of women:
66% very or quite comfortable
17% very or quite uncomfortable
15% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
Women’s refuges, of all respondents:
51% very or quite comfortable
24% very or quite uncomfortable
22% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
(Men also more likely to be uncomfortable than women.)
Overwhelmingly net positive in both cases.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you are not listening to the indisputable fact that the figures have changed dramatically in only six years! If you had asked the question 20 years ago everyone would be comfortable because it was not an issue then!
And you are also ignoring the fact that 24% against something is a very significant number if it is indeed 24% of the UK population as you have claimed?
You talk about following the data but what are actually doing is skewing and misrepresenting the data to suit your arguement
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have literally just posted the data up. People are free to make their own minds up about the data. Personally, I think it speaks (very strongly) for itself, and I encourage people to read the full report.
Here it is again: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/attitudes_to_transgender_people.pdf
Refuges is a more interesting and nuanced topic than bathrooms, I think.
We’re talking about places where cis and trans women alike arrive in vulnerable, scared, physically and psychologically injured, and desperately tired states.
Firstly, more are needed, more money is needed, and better access and visibility are needed, full stop.
Secondly, although many do fantastic and incredibly valuable work, they need help providing longer term solutions with better counselling and social support.
Thirdly, there’s absolutely a debate to be had about whether it might be beneficial for shelters to have provision for separate accommodation for yet-to-transition trans women where other guests have expressed a discomfort about sharing facilities with people with different genitalia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can’t disagree with any of that and I’m glad you now seem to acknowledge that these figures are not the UK Population
Let’s look at it a slightly different way
Data suggests that around 1% of the UK population are trans (around 670k, but I would think it would be far less)
Females are about 50% so 33.5m
24% of those are uncomfortable with trans people accessing their toilets
So do we make 8m people in this country uncomfortable and feeling unsafe using their own toilets to make 670k happy? (Assuming that is that every trans person in the country are unhappy with the status quo)
The numbers simply don’t stack up
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 11 minutes ago
This poll, as several others have done, shows a clear majority in favour of allowing trans women to use women’s bathrooms
¥+¥¥+
A majority of the poll. NOT a majority of the population as you have said. There is a clear difference, surely you can see that?
As to evidence to the contrary your own link shows that more and more woman have issues with trans being allowed in woman’s refuges and woman’s toilets. The trend is that more and more are concerned. There’s your evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you unaware of the concept of having a representative sample?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As a theory, or as a representation, Yes. But not as evidentiary proof as has been stated.
Do you think it is fair to say that the vast majority of the population of the UK voted for both Brexit and the tories at the last election?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting straw man.
This example refers to how people generally feel, and is captured by a representative survey of over 1600 people.
Your question is a straw man because it tries to make a comparison between what representative survey tells us people feel about an issue, and a record of an action (voting a certain way) that people took. Its not a valid comparison.
Presumably you were aiming for the idea that the vast majority supported brexit and the tories (eg does the voting represent the wider country) and the answer is quite factually no. The brexit vote got 52% which is not a vast majority. The tories got less than 50% which is not a majority whatsoever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So do you believe that the majority of the UK Population voted for Brexit?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, because we have concrete evidence that this isn't true. It is also entirely irrelevant as I have already explained to you (you don't seem to have grasped.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m glad you agree that you cannot take the votes and opinions of a certain small part of the population and then say that it is the opinion of the entire population 👍
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
People act like there’s security in women’s toilets that stops men going in there anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen some buIlshit stuff on this site over the years but pretending to be worried about women's safety in public bathrooms is right up there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rapists are obviously ones to follow the rules. Telling them not to go into women’s toilets is clearly a massive deterrent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because thieves don't follow the rules, you don't help them by leaving your valuables unprotected either.
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 11 minutes ago
This poll, as several others have done, shows a clear majority in favour of allowing trans women to use women’s bathrooms
¥+¥¥+
A majority of the poll. NOT a majority of the population as you have said. There is a clear difference, surely you can see that?
As to evidence to the contrary your own link shows that more and more woman have issues with trans being allowed in woman’s refuges and woman’s toilets. The trend is that more and more are concerned. There’s your evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you unaware of the concept of having a representative sample?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As a theory, or as a representation, Yes. But not as evidentiary proof as has been stated.
Do you think it is fair to say that the vast majority of the population of the UK voted for both Brexit and the tories at the last election?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting straw man.
This example refers to how people generally feel, and is captured by a representative survey of over 1600 people.
Your question is a straw man because it tries to make a comparison between what representative survey tells us people feel about an issue, and a record of an action (voting a certain way) that people took. Its not a valid comparison.
Presumably you were aiming for the idea that the vast majority supported brexit and the tories (eg does the voting represent the wider country) and the answer is quite factually no. The brexit vote got 52% which is not a vast majority. The tories got less than 50% which is not a majority whatsoever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So do you believe that the majority of the UK Population voted for Brexit?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, because we have concrete evidence that this isn't true. It is also entirely irrelevant as I have already explained to you (you don't seem to have grasped.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m glad you agree that you cannot take the votes and opinions of a certain small part of the population and then say that it is the opinion of the entire population 👍
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't agree to that. You were just incapable of actually asking the question that you were trying to ask. It isnt my fault that you can't understand the difference between the number of people who might support something and the number of people who actually voted.
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
b) following the data, and then given that both of those things align,
c) performing an immediate root-and-branch of domestic violence policy and domestic sexx abuse policy to better protect, help and support the hundreds of thousands of British women who have been or are being abused by their partners and former partners?
- Improving access to and availability of specialist policing units, healthcare and counselling/therapy
- Prioritising criminal cases involving domestic violence and abuse
- Investing in specialist prosecution units
- Reviewing burdens of proof in domestic violence and abuse cases
- Dedicating protected court time
- Doing more to protect women from former offenders
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all great, but you've dodged my points.
There are many issues to this, such as where do you draw the line? You don't know, you'll just bend with the wind and use logical fallacies to defend it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, what exactly do you mean by, “Where do you draw the line? “
There isn’t a sliding scale here. We’re talking about specific and distinct issues relating to trans rights, women’s rights and women’s safety (amongst other things), and trying to find the right balance that best protects and respects everybody.
If you want to talk logical fallacies, “Where do you draw the line? “ sounds a lot like a slippery slope argument, btw.
But if you have specific questions you want to pose, put them and ask for opinions. (Apologies if you’ve done this and I’ve missed them; I’ve been desperately trying to keep up with the new poster, Terry Munro.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are truly looking to find the right balance then it would be to protect the 24% of woman who would be uncomfortable having a trans person use their toilets? Unless of course you think that over 24% of the “uk population” are trans and will offended by it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was 17%, not 24%.
And this isn’t a matter of who is or isn’t offended; nobody should be concerned about that. People will decide that they’re offended by all manner of things.
It’s a matter of rights and it’s a matter of protections.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you protect those that feel unsafe or are uncomfortable rather than pander to those offended surely?
Sign in if you want to comment
Jordan Peterson
Page 9 of 18
10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14
posted on 10/7/22
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 42 seconds ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 19 seconds ago
I’d imagine it would be easier to follow someone in the park, rather than go through the process of gender reassignment so they can be rapey in a public changing room.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yuhuh.
It's a quite bizarre stance that honestly didn't enter my head (no doubt because I am not a nonce).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're bearly a man with the nonsense you come out with.
His argument is nonsense anyway, you don't need reassignment, you'd just need to identify as a female.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Go on...
posted on 10/7/22
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 3 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Genuine question but how would you ever police it though?
I guarantee at some point in your life you've walked past, or been served by, or sat near a transgender person and had absolutely no idea.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 12 minutes ago
The implication of their argument is that trans women are rapists. Same people that will claim they aren’t transphobic and also say ‘not all men’.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Strawman argument—that's all you have.
The actual point is it'll give any man easier access to female safe spaces.
You don't actually think following social media extremists would enable you to use rational arguments, did you?
posted on 10/7/22
It’s not, that’s essentially what you are arguing. You just don’t want to admit it because it shows you to be bigoted.
posted on 10/7/22
Also saw this story yesterday which is kind of relevant.
https://www.fox19.com/2022/07/08/transgender-butler-county-man-says-group-beat-him-up-using-wrong-restroom/
Long story short, a FtM transgender man used the women's bathroom because he was told to do so by the establishment due to having female genitalia, and a woman ended up complaining that a man was in the women's restroom which resulted in him being beaten up.
Would seem they can't really win.
posted on 10/7/22
People act like there’s security in women’s toilets that stops men going in there anyway.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 12 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Women’s bathrooms, of women:
66% very or quite comfortable
17% very or quite uncomfortable
15% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
Women’s refuges, of all respondents:
51% very or quite comfortable
24% very or quite uncomfortable
22% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
(Men also more likely to be uncomfortable than women.)
Overwhelmingly net positive in both cases.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
b) following the data, and then given that both of those things align,
c) performing an immediate root-and-branch of domestic violence policy and domestic sexx abuse policy to better protect, help and support the hundreds of thousands of British women who have been or are being abused by their partners and former partners?
- Improving access to and availability of specialist policing units, healthcare and counselling/therapy
- Prioritising criminal cases involving domestic violence and abuse
- Investing in specialist prosecution units
- Reviewing burdens of proof in domestic violence and abuse cases
- Dedicating protected court time
- Doing more to protect women from former offenders
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all great, but you've dodged my points.
There are many issues to this, such as where do you draw the line? You don't know, you'll just bend with the wind and use logical fallacies to defend it.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
People act like there’s security in women’s toilets that stops men going in there anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen some buIlshit stuff on this site over the years but pretending to be worried about women's safety in public bathrooms is right up there.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 6 minutes ago
It’s not, that’s essentially what you are arguing. You just don’t want to admit it because it shows you to be bigoted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The majority of trans clearly aren't predatory just like non trans. You've just found yourself in a situation which you can't logically defend. Basically there isn't a single thing the far left will come up with that you won't defend. You probably think this is the majority opinion, but it isn't, you've just been duped.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
b) following the data, and then given that both of those things align,
c) performing an immediate root-and-branch of domestic violence policy and domestic sexx abuse policy to better protect, help and support the hundreds of thousands of British women who have been or are being abused by their partners and former partners?
- Improving access to and availability of specialist policing units, healthcare and counselling/therapy
- Prioritising criminal cases involving domestic violence and abuse
- Investing in specialist prosecution units
- Reviewing burdens of proof in domestic violence and abuse cases
- Dedicating protected court time
- Doing more to protect women from former offenders
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all great, but you've dodged my points.
There are many issues to this, such as where do you draw the line? You don't know, you'll just bend with the wind and use logical fallacies to defend it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, what exactly do you mean by, “Where do you draw the line? “
There isn’t a sliding scale here. We’re talking about specific and distinct issues relating to trans rights, women’s rights and women’s safety (amongst other things), and trying to find the right balance that best protects and respects everybody.
If you want to talk logical fallacies, “Where do you draw the line? “ sounds a lot like a slippery slope argument, btw.
But if you have specific questions you want to pose, put them and ask for opinions. (Apologies if you’ve done this and I’ve missed them; I’ve been desperately trying to keep up with the new poster, Terry Munro.)
posted on 10/7/22
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
People act like there’s security in women’s toilets that stops men going in there anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen some buIlshit stuff on this site over the years but pretending to be worried about women's safety in public bathrooms is right up there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rapists are obviously ones to follow the rules. Telling them not to go into women’s toilets is clearly a massive deterrent.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 12 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Women’s bathrooms, of women:
66% very or quite comfortable
17% very or quite uncomfortable
15% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
Women’s refuges, of all respondents:
51% very or quite comfortable
24% very or quite uncomfortable
22% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
(Men also more likely to be uncomfortable than women.)
Overwhelmingly net positive in both cases.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you are not listening to the indisputable fact that the figures have changed dramatically in only six years! If you had asked the question 20 years ago everyone would be comfortable because it was not an issue then!
And you are also ignoring the fact that 24% against something is a very significant number if it is indeed 24% of the UK population as you have claimed?
You talk about following the data but what are actually doing is skewing and misrepresenting the data to suit your arguement
posted on 10/7/22
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 6 minutes ago
It’s not, that’s essentially what you are arguing. You just don’t want to admit it because it shows you to be bigoted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The majority of trans clearly aren't predatory just like non trans. You've just found yourself in a situation which you can't logically defend. Basically there isn't a single thing the far left will come up with that you won't defend. You probably think this is the majority opinion, but it isn't, you've just been duped.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And you tried to accuse me of making strawmen.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 3 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Genuine question but how would you ever police it though?
I guarantee at some point in your life you've walked past, or been served by, or sat near a transgender person and had absolutely no idea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea and have no real thoughts for or against. I just think it is extremely disingenuous to skew data to suit your own means
You still haven’t said if you believe that the majority of the uk population voted for Brexit?
posted on 10/7/22
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
b) following the data, and then given that both of those things align,
c) performing an immediate root-and-branch of domestic violence policy and domestic sexx abuse policy to better protect, help and support the hundreds of thousands of British women who have been or are being abused by their partners and former partners?
- Improving access to and availability of specialist policing units, healthcare and counselling/therapy
- Prioritising criminal cases involving domestic violence and abuse
- Investing in specialist prosecution units
- Reviewing burdens of proof in domestic violence and abuse cases
- Dedicating protected court time
- Doing more to protect women from former offenders
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all great, but you've dodged my points.
There are many issues to this, such as where do you draw the line? You don't know, you'll just bend with the wind and use logical fallacies to defend it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, what exactly do you mean by, “Where do you draw the line? “
There isn’t a sliding scale here. We’re talking about specific and distinct issues relating to trans rights, women’s rights and women’s safety (amongst other things), and trying to find the right balance that best protects and respects everybody.
If you want to talk logical fallacies, “Where do you draw the line? “ sounds a lot like a slippery slope argument, btw.
But if you have specific questions you want to pose, put them and ask for opinions. (Apologies if you’ve done this and I’ve missed them; I’ve been desperately trying to keep up with the new poster, Terry Munro.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are truly looking to find the right balance then it would be to protect the 24% of woman who would be uncomfortable having a trans person use their toilets? Unless of course you think that over 24% of the “uk population” are trans and will offended by it?
posted on 10/7/22
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 30 seconds ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 12 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Women’s bathrooms, of women:
66% very or quite comfortable
17% very or quite uncomfortable
15% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
Women’s refuges, of all respondents:
51% very or quite comfortable
24% very or quite uncomfortable
22% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
(Men also more likely to be uncomfortable than women.)
Overwhelmingly net positive in both cases.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you are not listening to the indisputable fact that the figures have changed dramatically in only six years! If you had asked the question 20 years ago everyone would be comfortable because it was not an issue then!
And you are also ignoring the fact that 24% against something is a very significant number if it is indeed 24% of the UK population as you have claimed?
You talk about following the data but what are actually doing is skewing and misrepresenting the data to suit your arguement
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have literally just posted the data up. People are free to make their own minds up about the data. Personally, I think it speaks (very strongly) for itself, and I encourage people to read the full report.
Here it is again: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/attitudes_to_transgender_people.pdf
Refuges is a more interesting and nuanced topic than bathrooms, I think.
We’re talking about places where cis and trans women alike arrive in vulnerable, scared, physically and psychologically injured, and desperately tired states.
Firstly, more are needed, more money is needed, and better access and visibility are needed, full stop.
Secondly, although many do fantastic and incredibly valuable work, they need help providing longer term solutions with better counselling and social support.
Thirdly, there’s absolutely a debate to be had about whether it might be beneficial for shelters to have provision for separate accommodation for yet-to-transition trans women where other guests have expressed a discomfort about sharing facilities with people with different genitalia.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 11 minutes ago
This poll, as several others have done, shows a clear majority in favour of allowing trans women to use women’s bathrooms
¥+¥¥+
A majority of the poll. NOT a majority of the population as you have said. There is a clear difference, surely you can see that?
As to evidence to the contrary your own link shows that more and more woman have issues with trans being allowed in woman’s refuges and woman’s toilets. The trend is that more and more are concerned. There’s your evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you unaware of the concept of having a representative sample?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As a theory, or as a representation, Yes. But not as evidentiary proof as has been stated.
Do you think it is fair to say that the vast majority of the population of the UK voted for both Brexit and the tories at the last election?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting straw man.
This example refers to how people generally feel, and is captured by a representative survey of over 1600 people.
Your question is a straw man because it tries to make a comparison between what representative survey tells us people feel about an issue, and a record of an action (voting a certain way) that people took. Its not a valid comparison.
Presumably you were aiming for the idea that the vast majority supported brexit and the tories (eg does the voting represent the wider country) and the answer is quite factually no. The brexit vote got 52% which is not a vast majority. The tories got less than 50% which is not a majority whatsoever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So do you believe that the majority of the UK Population voted for Brexit?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, because we have concrete evidence that this isn't true. It is also entirely irrelevant as I have already explained to you (you don't seem to have grasped.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
b) following the data, and then given that both of those things align,
c) performing an immediate root-and-branch of domestic violence policy and domestic sexx abuse policy to better protect, help and support the hundreds of thousands of British women who have been or are being abused by their partners and former partners?
- Improving access to and availability of specialist policing units, healthcare and counselling/therapy
- Prioritising criminal cases involving domestic violence and abuse
- Investing in specialist prosecution units
- Reviewing burdens of proof in domestic violence and abuse cases
- Dedicating protected court time
- Doing more to protect women from former offenders
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all great, but you've dodged my points.
There are many issues to this, such as where do you draw the line? You don't know, you'll just bend with the wind and use logical fallacies to defend it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, what exactly do you mean by, “Where do you draw the line? “
There isn’t a sliding scale here. We’re talking about specific and distinct issues relating to trans rights, women’s rights and women’s safety (amongst other things), and trying to find the right balance that best protects and respects everybody.
If you want to talk logical fallacies, “Where do you draw the line? “ sounds a lot like a slippery slope argument, btw.
But if you have specific questions you want to pose, put them and ask for opinions. (Apologies if you’ve done this and I’ve missed them; I’ve been desperately trying to keep up with the new poster, Terry Munro.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are truly looking to find the right balance then it would be to protect the 24% of woman who would be uncomfortable having a trans person use their toilets? Unless of course you think that over 24% of the “uk population” are trans and will offended by it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was 17%, not 24%.
And this isn’t a matter of who is or isn’t offended; nobody should be concerned about that. People will decide that they’re offended by all manner of things.
It’s a matter of rights and it’s a matter of protections.
posted on 10/7/22
this is a classic example of people wanting to be good or seen as good that they don't think about the wider impact of their choices
bathroom is one issue
sports is another
what is next?
the same people that will argue "ALL MEN ARE ATTACKERS " will happily welcome men who feel like women into women spaces because they don't want to be insensitive.
What about being sensitive to the women who are bold enough to say they want women only spaces to remain that. I guess these women are also bigots whose feelings or safety do not matter.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 30 seconds ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 12 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
++++
You don’t seem to want to listen as the links you provided show only 51% were comfortable with transgender people accessing woman’s refuges and one third were not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets
Both of these figures have risen considerably over the last six years and the trend is of them to continue that way.
Are you not interested in the 49% aren’t comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s refuges or the 34% who are not comfortable with trans people accessing woman’s toilets?
That’s a lot of people you are not listening to if you are still insistent that these stats are those of the entire UK population
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Women’s bathrooms, of women:
66% very or quite comfortable
17% very or quite uncomfortable
15% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
Women’s refuges, of all respondents:
51% very or quite comfortable
24% very or quite uncomfortable
22% neutral (neither comfortable or uncomfortable)
(Men also more likely to be uncomfortable than women.)
Overwhelmingly net positive in both cases.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you are not listening to the indisputable fact that the figures have changed dramatically in only six years! If you had asked the question 20 years ago everyone would be comfortable because it was not an issue then!
And you are also ignoring the fact that 24% against something is a very significant number if it is indeed 24% of the UK population as you have claimed?
You talk about following the data but what are actually doing is skewing and misrepresenting the data to suit your arguement
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have literally just posted the data up. People are free to make their own minds up about the data. Personally, I think it speaks (very strongly) for itself, and I encourage people to read the full report.
Here it is again: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/attitudes_to_transgender_people.pdf
Refuges is a more interesting and nuanced topic than bathrooms, I think.
We’re talking about places where cis and trans women alike arrive in vulnerable, scared, physically and psychologically injured, and desperately tired states.
Firstly, more are needed, more money is needed, and better access and visibility are needed, full stop.
Secondly, although many do fantastic and incredibly valuable work, they need help providing longer term solutions with better counselling and social support.
Thirdly, there’s absolutely a debate to be had about whether it might be beneficial for shelters to have provision for separate accommodation for yet-to-transition trans women where other guests have expressed a discomfort about sharing facilities with people with different genitalia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can’t disagree with any of that and I’m glad you now seem to acknowledge that these figures are not the UK Population
Let’s look at it a slightly different way
Data suggests that around 1% of the UK population are trans (around 670k, but I would think it would be far less)
Females are about 50% so 33.5m
24% of those are uncomfortable with trans people accessing their toilets
So do we make 8m people in this country uncomfortable and feeling unsafe using their own toilets to make 670k happy? (Assuming that is that every trans person in the country are unhappy with the status quo)
The numbers simply don’t stack up
posted on 10/7/22
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 11 minutes ago
This poll, as several others have done, shows a clear majority in favour of allowing trans women to use women’s bathrooms
¥+¥¥+
A majority of the poll. NOT a majority of the population as you have said. There is a clear difference, surely you can see that?
As to evidence to the contrary your own link shows that more and more woman have issues with trans being allowed in woman’s refuges and woman’s toilets. The trend is that more and more are concerned. There’s your evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you unaware of the concept of having a representative sample?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As a theory, or as a representation, Yes. But not as evidentiary proof as has been stated.
Do you think it is fair to say that the vast majority of the population of the UK voted for both Brexit and the tories at the last election?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting straw man.
This example refers to how people generally feel, and is captured by a representative survey of over 1600 people.
Your question is a straw man because it tries to make a comparison between what representative survey tells us people feel about an issue, and a record of an action (voting a certain way) that people took. Its not a valid comparison.
Presumably you were aiming for the idea that the vast majority supported brexit and the tories (eg does the voting represent the wider country) and the answer is quite factually no. The brexit vote got 52% which is not a vast majority. The tories got less than 50% which is not a majority whatsoever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So do you believe that the majority of the UK Population voted for Brexit?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, because we have concrete evidence that this isn't true. It is also entirely irrelevant as I have already explained to you (you don't seem to have grasped.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m glad you agree that you cannot take the votes and opinions of a certain small part of the population and then say that it is the opinion of the entire population 👍
posted on 10/7/22
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
People act like there’s security in women’s toilets that stops men going in there anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen some buIlshit stuff on this site over the years but pretending to be worried about women's safety in public bathrooms is right up there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rapists are obviously ones to follow the rules. Telling them not to go into women’s toilets is clearly a massive deterrent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because thieves don't follow the rules, you don't help them by leaving your valuables unprotected either.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 11 minutes ago
This poll, as several others have done, shows a clear majority in favour of allowing trans women to use women’s bathrooms
¥+¥¥+
A majority of the poll. NOT a majority of the population as you have said. There is a clear difference, surely you can see that?
As to evidence to the contrary your own link shows that more and more woman have issues with trans being allowed in woman’s refuges and woman’s toilets. The trend is that more and more are concerned. There’s your evidence
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Are you unaware of the concept of having a representative sample?
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As a theory, or as a representation, Yes. But not as evidentiary proof as has been stated.
Do you think it is fair to say that the vast majority of the population of the UK voted for both Brexit and the tories at the last election?
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Interesting straw man.
This example refers to how people generally feel, and is captured by a representative survey of over 1600 people.
Your question is a straw man because it tries to make a comparison between what representative survey tells us people feel about an issue, and a record of an action (voting a certain way) that people took. Its not a valid comparison.
Presumably you were aiming for the idea that the vast majority supported brexit and the tories (eg does the voting represent the wider country) and the answer is quite factually no. The brexit vote got 52% which is not a vast majority. The tories got less than 50% which is not a majority whatsoever.
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So do you believe that the majority of the UK Population voted for Brexit?
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No, because we have concrete evidence that this isn't true. It is also entirely irrelevant as I have already explained to you (you don't seem to have grasped.
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I’m glad you agree that you cannot take the votes and opinions of a certain small part of the population and then say that it is the opinion of the entire population 👍
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I didn't agree to that. You were just incapable of actually asking the question that you were trying to ask. It isnt my fault that you can't understand the difference between the number of people who might support something and the number of people who actually voted.
posted on 10/7/22
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by RIP Terry Munro (U22874)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
I ask again, are people really serious about protecting women, and is that really their main concern here?
If so, then do they agree that we need to be:
a) *listening to what women are actually saying they want and need*, and
b) following the data, and then given that both of those things align,
c) performing an immediate root-and-branch of domestic violence policy and domestic sexx abuse policy to better protect, help and support the hundreds of thousands of British women who have been or are being abused by their partners and former partners?
- Improving access to and availability of specialist policing units, healthcare and counselling/therapy
- Prioritising criminal cases involving domestic violence and abuse
- Investing in specialist prosecution units
- Reviewing burdens of proof in domestic violence and abuse cases
- Dedicating protected court time
- Doing more to protect women from former offenders
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That's all great, but you've dodged my points.
There are many issues to this, such as where do you draw the line? You don't know, you'll just bend with the wind and use logical fallacies to defend it.
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Well, what exactly do you mean by, “Where do you draw the line? “
There isn’t a sliding scale here. We’re talking about specific and distinct issues relating to trans rights, women’s rights and women’s safety (amongst other things), and trying to find the right balance that best protects and respects everybody.
If you want to talk logical fallacies, “Where do you draw the line? “ sounds a lot like a slippery slope argument, btw.
But if you have specific questions you want to pose, put them and ask for opinions. (Apologies if you’ve done this and I’ve missed them; I’ve been desperately trying to keep up with the new poster, Terry Munro.)
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If you are truly looking to find the right balance then it would be to protect the 24% of woman who would be uncomfortable having a trans person use their toilets? Unless of course you think that over 24% of the “uk population” are trans and will offended by it?
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It was 17%, not 24%.
And this isn’t a matter of who is or isn’t offended; nobody should be concerned about that. People will decide that they’re offended by all manner of things.
It’s a matter of rights and it’s a matter of protections.
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So you protect those that feel unsafe or are uncomfortable rather than pander to those offended surely?
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