Kids just suck, the end. Ban feckin kids altogether or just castrate feckers pumping out more than two.
Had a couple of little fecks on a flight Thursday, annoying as feck.
comment by There'sOne7-0Reds (U1721)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 1 hour, 25 minutes ago
comment by There'sOne7-0Reds (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
Why should parents of quiet babies suffer being confined to an area with screaming babies?
We have no issue with the baby on flights and certainly should be 'punished' because grumpy old men have an issue with other babies crying.
Also have you ever put a baby next to a crying baby? Have a guess what happens? You'd be complaining even more if there's a whole section of a plane with multiple crying babies.
It's just one of those inconveniences you have to suck up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps I am being a grumpy old man but so be it. I'm only being honest. Wouldn't everyone prefer a quiet flight? I've even stated in the OP everyone has a right to go on holiday. It's just I'd prefer not to have noise next to me that's all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No I understand that, I'm just saying it's one of those things you just have to deal with. There's no sensible way around it, that works for everyone. You always have the option of booking business class where it's rare to find babies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know. People have the right to go away of course. It's just there are some parents on flights I've been on that have just allowed their kids to cry/run riot. Whilst they have a few drinks. Bit of respect all round and we'd all be OK!
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 24 minutes ago
Sooner have a crying wean than a stag party, fat bastirt, smelly bastirt, talkative bastirt or a fat, smelly, talkative bastirt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like an Irish hen party
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 23 minutes ago
Kids just suck, the end. Ban feckin kids altogether or just castrate feckers pumping out more than two.
Had a couple of little fecks on a flight Thursday, annoying as feck.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kids do suck. Annoying fackers, and I say that as a parent
Yes sorry mate, you’re being a grumpy old man on this one.
Having children is a somewhat vital part of society and crying babies is inevitable of having children.
Badly behaved children is a different thing altogether.
There have been 3 times I've had the misfortune of being around someone who thinks that not only are they so incredibly important that the world should cater to them, including babies but have also forgotten that they were also a crying baby once.
I will happily confront them and explain what an utter pos of they are and funnily enough they always crawl back up their own backside.
You can always book a private flight. Unless you can't. In which case, you have zero room for complaining. If you've never had children, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about either.
Yes, I probably sound like a diiiick and this isn't particularly aimed at you specifically but my partner got so many comments, head shakes etc as a first time mother trying to calm a crying child that she refused to go away until he got older. So it winds me up when supposed grown adults struggle to comprehend that a babies brain simply doesn't functioning in the way am adult's does. They cannot control themselves and have no concept of social etiaieete. You'd think this was really, really obvious to anybody over the age of 5 but sadly it isn't.
You have absolutely no right to make others feel that way. Just get on with it. I have to with many, many other things. At least children have the excuse of having no idea what's going on. Adults 'should' know better but they are loud, stink, play music, talk on their phone and all manner of other things I personally find irritating but I don't point it out to them because I understand that I'm in a public space and other people have just as much right as I do to be there.
And parents letting their kids run riot while they have a few drinks is a totally different thing. That honestly sounds like a huge back peddle because that isn't the situation described in the op at all. And I think writing it off as 'maybe in being grumpy'. No mate, sorry, you're being a tttttwat, you just are. Feel free to think it all you like, that's absolutely your prerogative. I hate having to slap down ignorant old people in public but I'm actually very happy to do it when the time calls for it.
And having crying babies towards the end or front of the plane behind a curtain is not a good idea, why Winston ?
Babies are babies. They also have as much right to travel (to hot and cold countries) as much as any other person without being segregated. If they do cry a lot then most Mums will be doing their best to soothe thier babies using the same tricks they do at home. Most reasonable people will be sympathetic with the Mum and try and help (like 52 gracefully did) without more putting pressure on her to ' just shut the facker up' or even asking the cabin crew to relocate them. These are the type of nobb jockeys that usually think its great to get whanqered before and on flights, hassle the female cabin crew and put their bare arzes up against the windows with the hope that passing planes can see. Just ignore these tw@ts.
comment by TheFoxOutsideTheBox (U20459)
posted 21 minutes ago
There have been 3 times I've had the misfortune of being around someone who thinks that not only are they so incredibly important that the world should cater to them, including babies but have also forgotten that they were also a crying baby once.
I will happily confront them and explain what an utter pos of they are and funnily enough they always crawl back up their own backside.
You can always book a private flight. Unless you can't. In which case, you have zero room for complaining. If you've never had children, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about either.
Yes, I probably sound like a diiiick and this isn't particularly aimed at you specifically but my partner got so many comments, head shakes etc as a first time mother trying to calm a crying child that she refused to go away until he got older. So it winds me up when supposed grown adults struggle to comprehend that a babies brain simply doesn't functioning in the way am adult's does. They cannot control themselves and have no concept of social etiaieete. You'd think this was really, really obvious to anybody over the age of 5 but sadly it isn't.
You have absolutely no right to make others feel that way. Just get on with it. I have to with many, many other things. At least children have the excuse of having no idea what's going on. Adults 'should' know better but they are loud, stink, play music, talk on their phone and all manner of other things I personally find irritating but I don't point it out to them because I understand that I'm in a public space and other people have just as much right as I do to be there.
And parents letting their kids run riot while they have a few drinks is a totally different thing. That honestly sounds like a huge back peddle because that isn't the situation described in the op at all. And I think writing it off as 'maybe in being grumpy'. No mate, sorry, you're being a tttttwat, you just are. Feel free to think it all you like, that's absolutely your prerogative. I hate having to slap down ignorant old people in public but I'm actually very happy to do it when the time calls for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a huge back peddle. It's just another annoyance.
I've acknowledged it's my issue and that I can block it out but when there is a crying noise and people react (perhaps of some kind of anxiety etc) then parents do need to realise it works both ways too.
For the record people getting drunk/loud on flights is much worse and I have had the misfortune to experience that. Looking back around 27 years I was probably someone who was that myself.
I do have sympathy with parents but I was trying to gauge opinion here. Just because I've thought to myself "Oh no a baby near me" doesn't make me a bad person.
*Thought it but not done anything other than just get on with it.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 46 minutes ago
Yes sorry mate, you’re being a grumpy old man on this one.
Having children is a somewhat vital part of society and crying babies is inevitable of having children.
Badly behaved children is a different thing altogether.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes probably!
Of course!
Yes I know. To be fair those on the plane on Friday were generally OK.
Perhaps it's me that's out of touch. Wouldn't be the first time!
Hey diafol!
Leave those kids alone
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 5 minutes ago
Hey diafol!
Leave those kids alone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gladly! In a quiet compartment somewhere!
I look at it the other way.....everyone knows kids go on planes, if you don't like it tough......its like moaning other cars are on the road when you are.
Suck it...or dont travel dude 😁
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 1 minute ago
I look at it the other way.....everyone knows kids go on planes, if you don't like it tough......its like moaning other cars are on the road when you are.
Suck it...or dont travel dude 😁
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Whut if u had 2 sit next 2 a transgender person?
Whut if they looked like a dude butt air host thingy call em madam?
Wud that annoy u?
comment by #4zA Napul3 (U22472)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 1 minute ago
I look at it the other way.....everyone knows kids go on planes, if you don't like it tough......its like moaning other cars are on the road when you are.
Suck it...or dont travel dude 😁
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Whut if u had 2 sit next 2 a transgender person?
Whut if they looked like a dude butt air host thingy call em madam?
Wud that annoy u?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would be annoyed by his wife?
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 2 minutes ago
I look at it the other way.....everyone knows kids go on planes, if you don't like it tough......its like moaning other cars are on the road when you are.
Suck it...or dont travel dude 😁
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fat smelly people go on planes. Do you suck it up GB
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by TheFoxOutsideTheBox (U20459)
posted 21 minutes ago
There have been 3 times I've had the misfortune of being around someone who thinks that not only are they so incredibly important that the world should cater to them, including babies but have also forgotten that they were also a crying baby once.
I will happily confront them and explain what an utter pos of they are and funnily enough they always crawl back up their own backside.
You can always book a private flight. Unless you can't. In which case, you have zero room for complaining. If you've never had children, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about either.
Yes, I probably sound like a diiiick and this isn't particularly aimed at you specifically but my partner got so many comments, head shakes etc as a first time mother trying to calm a crying child that she refused to go away until he got older. So it winds me up when supposed grown adults struggle to comprehend that a babies brain simply doesn't functioning in the way am adult's does. They cannot control themselves and have no concept of social etiaieete. You'd think this was really, really obvious to anybody over the age of 5 but sadly it isn't.
You have absolutely no right to make others feel that way. Just get on with it. I have to with many, many other things. At least children have the excuse of having no idea what's going on. Adults 'should' know better but they are loud, stink, play music, talk on their phone and all manner of other things I personally find irritating but I don't point it out to them because I understand that I'm in a public space and other people have just as much right as I do to be there.
And parents letting their kids run riot while they have a few drinks is a totally different thing. That honestly sounds like a huge back peddle because that isn't the situation described in the op at all. And I think writing it off as 'maybe in being grumpy'. No mate, sorry, you're being a tttttwat, you just are. Feel free to think it all you like, that's absolutely your prerogative. I hate having to slap down ignorant old people in public but I'm actually very happy to do it when the time calls for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a huge back peddle. It's just another annoyance.
I've acknowledged it's my issue and that I can block it out but when there is a crying noise and people react (perhaps of some kind of anxiety etc) then parents do need to realise it works both ways too.
For the record people getting drunk/loud on flights is much worse and I have had the misfortune to experience that. Looking back around 27 years I was probably someone who was that myself.
I do have sympathy with parents but I was trying to gauge opinion here. Just because I've thought to myself "Oh no a baby near me" doesn't make me a bad person.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I totally get where you’re coming from here diafol.
My view on babies is completely different to obnoxious adults.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 7 minutes ago
My view on babies is completely different to obnoxious adults.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was it always that way 52? I have kids who are awesome, and I only say this because I can see diafol’s point. If for example you’d been overseas on business and had had very little sleep, jet lagged and catching a connecting flight you board a 10 hour flight, trying with much difficulty to sleep in the crappy tiny bit of space you get, only to have a screaming child next to you? If you can sleep through hurricaine’s then sure, it wouldn’t be a problem, but for others…
Works both ways.
I'm sure you're right Baz. TBF all of my flights have been in Europe, so I've not had to put up with what you describe.
So I have no solution I'm afraid.
I plan to stay child free and generally find kids I don't know to be annoying, but I'm happy to remind myself that I was an annoying little tuurd at some point and that's just what kids do.
I only really get annoyed if the parents are completely unengaged, never at the kids themselves
It's never the child's fault of course.
I just thank the universe that it’s somebody else’s kid crying and not mine.
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 55 seconds ago
It's never the child's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah sometimes I have to remind myself of that and that the parents are likely more stressed by it than I am
But when parents can seemingly tune out and just let their kids annoy the rest of the plane or whatever, that's when I get annoyed
Sign in if you want to comment
Babies/Kids on Flights
Page 3 of 5
posted on 17/6/23
Kids just suck, the end. Ban feckin kids altogether or just castrate feckers pumping out more than two.
Had a couple of little fecks on a flight Thursday, annoying as feck.
posted on 17/6/23
comment by There'sOne7-0Reds (U1721)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 1 hour, 25 minutes ago
comment by There'sOne7-0Reds (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
Why should parents of quiet babies suffer being confined to an area with screaming babies?
We have no issue with the baby on flights and certainly should be 'punished' because grumpy old men have an issue with other babies crying.
Also have you ever put a baby next to a crying baby? Have a guess what happens? You'd be complaining even more if there's a whole section of a plane with multiple crying babies.
It's just one of those inconveniences you have to suck up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps I am being a grumpy old man but so be it. I'm only being honest. Wouldn't everyone prefer a quiet flight? I've even stated in the OP everyone has a right to go on holiday. It's just I'd prefer not to have noise next to me that's all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No I understand that, I'm just saying it's one of those things you just have to deal with. There's no sensible way around it, that works for everyone. You always have the option of booking business class where it's rare to find babies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know. People have the right to go away of course. It's just there are some parents on flights I've been on that have just allowed their kids to cry/run riot. Whilst they have a few drinks. Bit of respect all round and we'd all be OK!
posted on 17/6/23
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 24 minutes ago
Sooner have a crying wean than a stag party, fat bastirt, smelly bastirt, talkative bastirt or a fat, smelly, talkative bastirt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like an Irish hen party
posted on 17/6/23
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 23 minutes ago
Kids just suck, the end. Ban feckin kids altogether or just castrate feckers pumping out more than two.
Had a couple of little fecks on a flight Thursday, annoying as feck.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kids do suck. Annoying fackers, and I say that as a parent
posted on 17/6/23
Yes sorry mate, you’re being a grumpy old man on this one.
Having children is a somewhat vital part of society and crying babies is inevitable of having children.
Badly behaved children is a different thing altogether.
posted on 17/6/23
There have been 3 times I've had the misfortune of being around someone who thinks that not only are they so incredibly important that the world should cater to them, including babies but have also forgotten that they were also a crying baby once.
I will happily confront them and explain what an utter pos of they are and funnily enough they always crawl back up their own backside.
You can always book a private flight. Unless you can't. In which case, you have zero room for complaining. If you've never had children, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about either.
Yes, I probably sound like a diiiick and this isn't particularly aimed at you specifically but my partner got so many comments, head shakes etc as a first time mother trying to calm a crying child that she refused to go away until he got older. So it winds me up when supposed grown adults struggle to comprehend that a babies brain simply doesn't functioning in the way am adult's does. They cannot control themselves and have no concept of social etiaieete. You'd think this was really, really obvious to anybody over the age of 5 but sadly it isn't.
You have absolutely no right to make others feel that way. Just get on with it. I have to with many, many other things. At least children have the excuse of having no idea what's going on. Adults 'should' know better but they are loud, stink, play music, talk on their phone and all manner of other things I personally find irritating but I don't point it out to them because I understand that I'm in a public space and other people have just as much right as I do to be there.
And parents letting their kids run riot while they have a few drinks is a totally different thing. That honestly sounds like a huge back peddle because that isn't the situation described in the op at all. And I think writing it off as 'maybe in being grumpy'. No mate, sorry, you're being a tttttwat, you just are. Feel free to think it all you like, that's absolutely your prerogative. I hate having to slap down ignorant old people in public but I'm actually very happy to do it when the time calls for it.
posted on 17/6/23
And having crying babies towards the end or front of the plane behind a curtain is not a good idea, why Winston ?
posted on 17/6/23
Babies are babies. They also have as much right to travel (to hot and cold countries) as much as any other person without being segregated. If they do cry a lot then most Mums will be doing their best to soothe thier babies using the same tricks they do at home. Most reasonable people will be sympathetic with the Mum and try and help (like 52 gracefully did) without more putting pressure on her to ' just shut the facker up' or even asking the cabin crew to relocate them. These are the type of nobb jockeys that usually think its great to get whanqered before and on flights, hassle the female cabin crew and put their bare arzes up against the windows with the hope that passing planes can see. Just ignore these tw@ts.
posted on 17/6/23
comment by TheFoxOutsideTheBox (U20459)
posted 21 minutes ago
There have been 3 times I've had the misfortune of being around someone who thinks that not only are they so incredibly important that the world should cater to them, including babies but have also forgotten that they were also a crying baby once.
I will happily confront them and explain what an utter pos of they are and funnily enough they always crawl back up their own backside.
You can always book a private flight. Unless you can't. In which case, you have zero room for complaining. If you've never had children, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about either.
Yes, I probably sound like a diiiick and this isn't particularly aimed at you specifically but my partner got so many comments, head shakes etc as a first time mother trying to calm a crying child that she refused to go away until he got older. So it winds me up when supposed grown adults struggle to comprehend that a babies brain simply doesn't functioning in the way am adult's does. They cannot control themselves and have no concept of social etiaieete. You'd think this was really, really obvious to anybody over the age of 5 but sadly it isn't.
You have absolutely no right to make others feel that way. Just get on with it. I have to with many, many other things. At least children have the excuse of having no idea what's going on. Adults 'should' know better but they are loud, stink, play music, talk on their phone and all manner of other things I personally find irritating but I don't point it out to them because I understand that I'm in a public space and other people have just as much right as I do to be there.
And parents letting their kids run riot while they have a few drinks is a totally different thing. That honestly sounds like a huge back peddle because that isn't the situation described in the op at all. And I think writing it off as 'maybe in being grumpy'. No mate, sorry, you're being a tttttwat, you just are. Feel free to think it all you like, that's absolutely your prerogative. I hate having to slap down ignorant old people in public but I'm actually very happy to do it when the time calls for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a huge back peddle. It's just another annoyance.
I've acknowledged it's my issue and that I can block it out but when there is a crying noise and people react (perhaps of some kind of anxiety etc) then parents do need to realise it works both ways too.
For the record people getting drunk/loud on flights is much worse and I have had the misfortune to experience that. Looking back around 27 years I was probably someone who was that myself.
I do have sympathy with parents but I was trying to gauge opinion here. Just because I've thought to myself "Oh no a baby near me" doesn't make me a bad person.
posted on 17/6/23
*Thought it but not done anything other than just get on with it.
posted on 17/6/23
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 46 minutes ago
Yes sorry mate, you’re being a grumpy old man on this one.
Having children is a somewhat vital part of society and crying babies is inevitable of having children.
Badly behaved children is a different thing altogether.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes probably!
Of course!
Yes I know. To be fair those on the plane on Friday were generally OK.
Perhaps it's me that's out of touch. Wouldn't be the first time!
posted on 17/6/23
Hey diafol!
Leave those kids alone
posted on 17/6/23
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 5 minutes ago
Hey diafol!
Leave those kids alone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gladly! In a quiet compartment somewhere!
posted on 17/6/23
I look at it the other way.....everyone knows kids go on planes, if you don't like it tough......its like moaning other cars are on the road when you are.
Suck it...or dont travel dude 😁
posted on 17/6/23
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 1 minute ago
I look at it the other way.....everyone knows kids go on planes, if you don't like it tough......its like moaning other cars are on the road when you are.
Suck it...or dont travel dude 😁
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Whut if u had 2 sit next 2 a transgender person?
Whut if they looked like a dude butt air host thingy call em madam?
Wud that annoy u?
posted on 17/6/23
comment by #4zA Napul3 (U22472)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 1 minute ago
I look at it the other way.....everyone knows kids go on planes, if you don't like it tough......its like moaning other cars are on the road when you are.
Suck it...or dont travel dude 😁
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Whut if u had 2 sit next 2 a transgender person?
Whut if they looked like a dude butt air host thingy call em madam?
Wud that annoy u?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would be annoyed by his wife?
posted on 17/6/23
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 2 minutes ago
I look at it the other way.....everyone knows kids go on planes, if you don't like it tough......its like moaning other cars are on the road when you are.
Suck it...or dont travel dude 😁
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fat smelly people go on planes. Do you suck it up GB
posted on 17/6/23
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 36 minutes ago
comment by TheFoxOutsideTheBox (U20459)
posted 21 minutes ago
There have been 3 times I've had the misfortune of being around someone who thinks that not only are they so incredibly important that the world should cater to them, including babies but have also forgotten that they were also a crying baby once.
I will happily confront them and explain what an utter pos of they are and funnily enough they always crawl back up their own backside.
You can always book a private flight. Unless you can't. In which case, you have zero room for complaining. If you've never had children, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about either.
Yes, I probably sound like a diiiick and this isn't particularly aimed at you specifically but my partner got so many comments, head shakes etc as a first time mother trying to calm a crying child that she refused to go away until he got older. So it winds me up when supposed grown adults struggle to comprehend that a babies brain simply doesn't functioning in the way am adult's does. They cannot control themselves and have no concept of social etiaieete. You'd think this was really, really obvious to anybody over the age of 5 but sadly it isn't.
You have absolutely no right to make others feel that way. Just get on with it. I have to with many, many other things. At least children have the excuse of having no idea what's going on. Adults 'should' know better but they are loud, stink, play music, talk on their phone and all manner of other things I personally find irritating but I don't point it out to them because I understand that I'm in a public space and other people have just as much right as I do to be there.
And parents letting their kids run riot while they have a few drinks is a totally different thing. That honestly sounds like a huge back peddle because that isn't the situation described in the op at all. And I think writing it off as 'maybe in being grumpy'. No mate, sorry, you're being a tttttwat, you just are. Feel free to think it all you like, that's absolutely your prerogative. I hate having to slap down ignorant old people in public but I'm actually very happy to do it when the time calls for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a huge back peddle. It's just another annoyance.
I've acknowledged it's my issue and that I can block it out but when there is a crying noise and people react (perhaps of some kind of anxiety etc) then parents do need to realise it works both ways too.
For the record people getting drunk/loud on flights is much worse and I have had the misfortune to experience that. Looking back around 27 years I was probably someone who was that myself.
I do have sympathy with parents but I was trying to gauge opinion here. Just because I've thought to myself "Oh no a baby near me" doesn't make me a bad person.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I totally get where you’re coming from here diafol.
posted on 17/6/23
My view on babies is completely different to obnoxious adults.
posted on 17/6/23
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 7 minutes ago
My view on babies is completely different to obnoxious adults.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was it always that way 52? I have kids who are awesome, and I only say this because I can see diafol’s point. If for example you’d been overseas on business and had had very little sleep, jet lagged and catching a connecting flight you board a 10 hour flight, trying with much difficulty to sleep in the crappy tiny bit of space you get, only to have a screaming child next to you? If you can sleep through hurricaine’s then sure, it wouldn’t be a problem, but for others…
Works both ways.
posted on 17/6/23
I'm sure you're right Baz. TBF all of my flights have been in Europe, so I've not had to put up with what you describe.
So I have no solution I'm afraid.
posted on 17/6/23
I plan to stay child free and generally find kids I don't know to be annoying, but I'm happy to remind myself that I was an annoying little tuurd at some point and that's just what kids do.
I only really get annoyed if the parents are completely unengaged, never at the kids themselves
posted on 17/6/23
It's never the child's fault of course.
posted on 17/6/23
I just thank the universe that it’s somebody else’s kid crying and not mine.
posted on 17/6/23
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 55 seconds ago
It's never the child's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah sometimes I have to remind myself of that and that the parents are likely more stressed by it than I am
But when parents can seemingly tune out and just let their kids annoy the rest of the plane or whatever, that's when I get annoyed
Page 3 of 5