comment by Boris 'Inky’ Gibson (U5901)
posted 1 minute ago
What part of "He wanted to leave" are people struggling with?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The reason by the looks of things, obviously.
Not entirely sure what you mean by that Nickasaurus, but basically where I'm coming from is this:
I don't think Cole Palmer has done enough to convince us that he should be starting for England over Saka (unless the latter is injured). 1) Because we've seen Saka showing consistent high quality over about three seasons - and is well integrated with his England team mates / understands what Southgate wants from him. And 2) because I don't think Palmer has demonstrated he's a better player than Saka *this season*. As others have said, he is playing in a team with very disciplined positional demands, in a side which has deliberately made itself much harder to break down at the expense of some of the attacking exuberance that Saka epitomised last season. You can argue that it's harder to excel in a team as dysfunctional as Chelsea, but a player who has an eye for a pass and a goal can stand out in a team that's involved in a lot of transitional games: Bruno Fernandes, for instance, has had several seasons as one of the highest scoring midfielders and most prolific chance creators in a series of chaotic, underperforming United sides. I'd imagine Bruno's stats would suffer (while winning all the trophies) if he played for Guardiola's City.
Never understand why penalties are used as some form of mitigation around why numbers are good.
Someone who is basically guaranteed to score a penalty and has backed that up with multiple across as season is a worthy attribute.
Ask any fan that's been on the end of a losing pen shoot out how little being a great pen taker means....
Happened with Bruno a lot and just comes across as a wibbly, desperate attempt to not accept that a player for a different club is really good.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
Not entirely sure what you mean by that Nickasaurus, but basically where I'm coming from is this:
I don't think Cole Palmer has done enough to convince us that he should be starting for England over Saka (unless the latter is injured). 1) Because we've seen Saka showing consistent high quality over about three seasons - and is well integrated with his England team mates / understands what Southgate wants from him. And 2) because I don't think Palmer has demonstrated he's a better player than Saka *this season*. As others have said, he is playing in a team with very disciplined positional demands, in a side which has deliberately made itself much harder to break down at the expense of some of the attacking exuberance that Saka epitomised last season. You can argue that it's harder to excel in a team as dysfunctional as Chelsea, but a player who has an eye for a pass and a goal can stand out in a team that's involved in a lot of transitional games: Bruno Fernandes, for instance, has had several seasons as one of the highest scoring midfielders and most prolific chance creators in a series of chaotic, underperforming United sides. I'd imagine Bruno's stats would suffer (while winning all the trophies) if he played for Guardiola's City.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I said earlier in the thread, it just takes a brief look at the heat maps of Palmer and Saka to see who is afforded more freedom.
It’s great for Palmer, and for Chelsea, but he’ll not be allowed to do that for England (and rightly so).
No way should be ahead of Saka on the right for England imo, and barring injury, he simply won’t be.
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 24 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
I said it was a bit of a silly stat. however over 20 goals and a season is still quite a sample size.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a tiny sample size. There's a lot of material written about the dangers of drawing conclusions off one season of overperforming xG, and far more examples of players for whom it's an anomaly than a consistent phenomenon. In fact, unless you can see deficiencies in finishing ability, you may be better off buying a player who is underperforming a high xG than a player overperforming a low xG, as more often than not they revert to the average. Again, this isn't to denigrate Palmer, just to exercise caution about hyping him up too much (which isn't always in the player's best interests).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
were comparing both based on this season. It's that and other metrics this season that we use to guide a more informed opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The EURO's are this season. Picking players on past form isn't how you win tournaments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet it’s worked for every single nation that has won a tournament.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
I said it was a bit of a silly stat. however over 20 goals and a season is still quite a sample size.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a tiny sample size. There's a lot of material written about the dangers of drawing conclusions off one season of overperforming xG, and far more examples of players for whom it's an anomaly than a consistent phenomenon. In fact, unless you can see deficiencies in finishing ability, you may be better off buying a player who is underperforming a high xG than a player overperforming a low xG, as more often than not they revert to the average. Again, this isn't to denigrate Palmer, just to exercise caution about hyping him up too much (which isn't always in the player's best interests).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like the Liverpool Nunez logic.
One of the biggest differences I think is players like Saka get special treatment, double marked, and Arsenal or City in general face low blocks because they are so threatening.
Palmer will start to get that special attention more and more. He's scored +50% of their goals so stop Palmer stop Chelsea. But also teams feel less threatened by Chelsea so may well play more offensively against them, which may change as Chelsea improve.
That said, the only offensive thing about a Shaun Dyche team is their style of play, so to score 4 against that defensive, reactive type of team is quite something. Aided by the fact they are shiiit!
comment by TheFoxOutsideTheBox (U20459)
posted 9 minutes ago
Never understand why penalties are used as some form of mitigation around why numbers are good.
Someone who is basically guaranteed to score a penalty and has backed that up with multiple across as season is a worthy attribute.
Ask any fan that's been on the end of a losing pen shoot out how little being a great pen taker means....
Happened with Bruno a lot and just comes across as a wibbly, desperate attempt to not accept that a player for a different club is really good.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally disagree. Something like 80% of penalties are converted. If you regularly take your team's penalties, you're going to get a significant number of goals from them; if someone else takes those penalties, they'll get a significant number of goals instead. Of course you want the best penalty taker to take pens, and that's a valuable asset, but the added value of being the best penalty taker in a team is maybe scoring 1/10 more penalties than the alternative. Number of penalties scored across a season depends far more on the number of penalties won than the quality of the penalty taker.
This isn't about denigrating a player. To flip it around, if Bruno scores 18 goals one season (with 9 penalties) and 10 goals the following season (with no penalties, because none were conceded, or because Rashford took over as the designated penalty taker), does that mean Bruno has contributed far less the second season? No! Both seasons are similarly productive, and very respectable goal stats for a midfielder.
comment by Robbing Hoody - I taught Szoboszlai how to cushion half volleys (U6374)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
Not entirely sure what you mean by that Nickasaurus, but basically where I'm coming from is this:
I don't think Cole Palmer has done enough to convince us that he should be starting for England over Saka (unless the latter is injured). 1) Because we've seen Saka showing consistent high quality over about three seasons - and is well integrated with his England team mates / understands what Southgate wants from him. And 2) because I don't think Palmer has demonstrated he's a better player than Saka *this season*. As others have said, he is playing in a team with very disciplined positional demands, in a side which has deliberately made itself much harder to break down at the expense of some of the attacking exuberance that Saka epitomised last season. You can argue that it's harder to excel in a team as dysfunctional as Chelsea, but a player who has an eye for a pass and a goal can stand out in a team that's involved in a lot of transitional games: Bruno Fernandes, for instance, has had several seasons as one of the highest scoring midfielders and most prolific chance creators in a series of chaotic, underperforming United sides. I'd imagine Bruno's stats would suffer (while winning all the trophies) if he played for Guardiola's City.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I said earlier in the thread, it just takes a brief look at the heat maps of Palmer and Saka to see who is afforded more freedom.
It’s great for Palmer, and for Chelsea, but he’ll not be allowed to do that for England (and rightly so).
No way should be ahead of Saka on the right for England imo, and barring injury, he simply won’t be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
just had a look at both and not much difference and harder to guage as palmer has also played cam this season so skews it. What is does show is palmer drops deeper a fair bit more to get the ball.
So whether or not that is due to more freedom is something we couldnt possibly say. I just know palmer works hard defensively and sticks to whatever position he's in. hazard use to float a lot more.
Saka is certainly more of a "winger" however.
Palmer played cam last night.
Wouldn't mind seeing
Kane
Foden Palmer Saka
Rice Bellingham
I think Bellingham is wasted in a double pivot (particularly when you think about how conservatively Southgate sets up) and he's another player who, at the moment, has to be considered ahead of Cole Palmer in the England set-up. (I'd also have Foden ahead of Palmer in the queue for the attacking midfielder spot if Southgate wanted a more dynamic player on the left wing.)
Keep having to emphasise I'm not saying I don't rate Palmer, and he surely has to be in the squad.
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - I taught Szoboszlai how to cushion half volleys (U6374)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
Not entirely sure what you mean by that Nickasaurus, but basically where I'm coming from is this:
I don't think Cole Palmer has done enough to convince us that he should be starting for England over Saka (unless the latter is injured). 1) Because we've seen Saka showing consistent high quality over about three seasons - and is well integrated with his England team mates / understands what Southgate wants from him. And 2) because I don't think Palmer has demonstrated he's a better player than Saka *this season*. As others have said, he is playing in a team with very disciplined positional demands, in a side which has deliberately made itself much harder to break down at the expense of some of the attacking exuberance that Saka epitomised last season. You can argue that it's harder to excel in a team as dysfunctional as Chelsea, but a player who has an eye for a pass and a goal can stand out in a team that's involved in a lot of transitional games: Bruno Fernandes, for instance, has had several seasons as one of the highest scoring midfielders and most prolific chance creators in a series of chaotic, underperforming United sides. I'd imagine Bruno's stats would suffer (while winning all the trophies) if he played for Guardiola's City.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I said earlier in the thread, it just takes a brief look at the heat maps of Palmer and Saka to see who is afforded more freedom.
It’s great for Palmer, and for Chelsea, but he’ll not be allowed to do that for England (and rightly so).
No way should be ahead of Saka on the right for England imo, and barring injury, he simply won’t be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
just had a look at both and not much difference and harder to guage as palmer has also played cam this season so skews it. What is does show is palmer drops deeper a fair bit more to get the ball.
So whether or not that is due to more freedom is something we couldnt possibly say. I just know palmer works hard defensively and sticks to whatever position he's in. hazard use to float a lot more.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His heat map from last night shows him having touches all across the pitch.
I wouldn’t over think this, he’s simply allowed more freedom. It’s not really up for debate tbh
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 6 minutes ago
Saka is certainly more of a "winger" however.
Palmer played cam last night.
Wouldn't mind seeing
Kane
Foden Palmer Saka
Rice Bellingham
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is very strong. We really should do very well this summer.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
I think Bellingham is wasted in a double pivot (particularly when you think about how conservatively Southgate sets up) and he's another player who, at the moment, has to be considered ahead of Cole Palmer in the England set-up. (I'd also have Foden ahead of Palmer in the queue for the attacking midfielder spot if Southgate wanted a more dynamic player on the left wing.)
Keep having to emphasise I'm not saying I don't rate Palmer, and he surely has to be in the squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People just want to shoehorn all their favourite attacking players into the team. They are then shocked when international managers aren’t stupid enough to do this.
comment by Robbing Hoody - I taught Szoboszlai how to cushion half volleys (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - I taught Szoboszlai how to cushion half volleys (U6374)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
Not entirely sure what you mean by that Nickasaurus, but basically where I'm coming from is this:
I don't think Cole Palmer has done enough to convince us that he should be starting for England over Saka (unless the latter is injured). 1) Because we've seen Saka showing consistent high quality over about three seasons - and is well integrated with his England team mates / understands what Southgate wants from him. And 2) because I don't think Palmer has demonstrated he's a better player than Saka *this season*. As others have said, he is playing in a team with very disciplined positional demands, in a side which has deliberately made itself much harder to break down at the expense of some of the attacking exuberance that Saka epitomised last season. You can argue that it's harder to excel in a team as dysfunctional as Chelsea, but a player who has an eye for a pass and a goal can stand out in a team that's involved in a lot of transitional games: Bruno Fernandes, for instance, has had several seasons as one of the highest scoring midfielders and most prolific chance creators in a series of chaotic, underperforming United sides. I'd imagine Bruno's stats would suffer (while winning all the trophies) if he played for Guardiola's City.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I said earlier in the thread, it just takes a brief look at the heat maps of Palmer and Saka to see who is afforded more freedom.
It’s great for Palmer, and for Chelsea, but he’ll not be allowed to do that for England (and rightly so).
No way should be ahead of Saka on the right for England imo, and barring injury, he simply won’t be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
just had a look at both and not much difference and harder to guage as palmer has also played cam this season so skews it. What is does show is palmer drops deeper a fair bit more to get the ball.
So whether or not that is due to more freedom is something we couldnt possibly say. I just know palmer works hard defensively and sticks to whatever position he's in. hazard use to float a lot more.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His heat map from last night shows him having touches all across the pitch.
I wouldn’t over think this, he’s simply allowed more freedom. It’s not really up for debate tbh
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.sofascore.com/player/cole-palmer/982780#tab:statistics
https://www.sofascore.com/player/bukayo-saka/934235#tab:statistics
‘Not much difference.’
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 17 minutes ago
Saka is certainly more of a "winger" however.
Palmer played cam last night.
Wouldn't mind seeing
Kane
Foden Palmer Saka
Rice Bellingham
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't see Southgate resisting the temptation to throw a Henderson or Phillips in midfield for extra protection.
exactly not much difference at all. All red spots down the right, bar palmer in the middle a bit more due to his time at CAM. 8 starts at cam infact.
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
I think Bellingham is wasted in a double pivot (particularly when you think about how conservatively Southgate sets up) and he's another player who, at the moment, has to be considered ahead of Cole Palmer in the England set-up. (I'd also have Foden ahead of Palmer in the queue for the attacking midfielder spot if Southgate wanted a more dynamic player on the left wing.)
Keep having to emphasise I'm not saying I don't rate Palmer, and he surely has to be in the squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People just want to shoehorn all their favourite attacking players into the team. They are then shocked when international managers aren’t stupid enough to do this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldnt mind it if we had a strong DM or box to box to partner Rice, but imo we don't.
Bellingham ideally players further forward. The best player to compiment Rice in terms of style is Mainoo but the lad is only 18 and played a handful of professional games, shame he isn't a couple years older and more experienced.
What it shows a non English man is that you have a plethero of talent front 6, who he plays is up to him but you're certainly not short of creativity and goals?
Throw in Watkins and Toney and scoring won't be your problem if Gareth opens up a wee bit
I guarantee I've watched Palmer more than the rest of you. He is a really good player, but I think that, right now, he and Chelsea are perfect for each other. I wouldn't necessarily assume he'd fit in so well elsewhere. He made the right decision leaving City - he wouldn't have got game time, and there are a lot of wide midfielders ahead of him. But tbh I wish we'd have given him a loan move instead.
comment by Kamikaze Blue (U7450)
posted 3 minutes ago
I guarantee I've watched Palmer more than the rest of you. He is a really good player, but I think that, right now, he and Chelsea are perfect for each other. I wouldn't necessarily assume he'd fit in so well elsewhere. He made the right decision leaving City - he wouldn't have got game time, and there are a lot of wide midfielders ahead of him. But tbh I wish we'd have given him a loan move instead.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you watch him at youth level?
comment by Insufferable-Piffle (U4388)
posted 22 minutes ago
What it shows a non English man is that you have a plethero of talent front 6, who he plays is up to him but you're certainly not short of creativity and goals?
Throw in Watkins and Toney and scoring won't be your problem if Gareth opens up a wee bit
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s never that simple at international tournaments, though. In 2006 Brazil had Ronaldo, Adriano, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Cafu and Roberto Carlos on the pitch against France and lost 1-0, as an example.
As for the OP, it would be useful if Robb could clarify whether or not Cole Palmer is a top talent or a generational one.
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Insufferable-Piffle (U4388)
posted 22 minutes ago
What it shows a non English man is that you have a plethero of talent front 6, who he plays is up to him but you're certainly not short of creativity and goals?
Throw in Watkins and Toney and scoring won't be your problem if Gareth opens up a wee bit
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s never that simple at international tournaments, though. In 2006 Brazil had Ronaldo, Adriano, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Cafu and Roberto Carlos on the pitch against France and lost 1-0, as an example.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh I absolutely agree, also don't think the defense is half as good as the attacking options mate but I do enjoy watching the forward players play, and hope they do well at the tourney
Sign in if you want to comment
Cole Palmer
Page 5 of 6
6
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Boris 'Inky’ Gibson (U5901)
posted 1 minute ago
What part of "He wanted to leave" are people struggling with?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The reason by the looks of things, obviously.
posted on 16/4/24
Not entirely sure what you mean by that Nickasaurus, but basically where I'm coming from is this:
I don't think Cole Palmer has done enough to convince us that he should be starting for England over Saka (unless the latter is injured). 1) Because we've seen Saka showing consistent high quality over about three seasons - and is well integrated with his England team mates / understands what Southgate wants from him. And 2) because I don't think Palmer has demonstrated he's a better player than Saka *this season*. As others have said, he is playing in a team with very disciplined positional demands, in a side which has deliberately made itself much harder to break down at the expense of some of the attacking exuberance that Saka epitomised last season. You can argue that it's harder to excel in a team as dysfunctional as Chelsea, but a player who has an eye for a pass and a goal can stand out in a team that's involved in a lot of transitional games: Bruno Fernandes, for instance, has had several seasons as one of the highest scoring midfielders and most prolific chance creators in a series of chaotic, underperforming United sides. I'd imagine Bruno's stats would suffer (while winning all the trophies) if he played for Guardiola's City.
posted on 16/4/24
Never understand why penalties are used as some form of mitigation around why numbers are good.
Someone who is basically guaranteed to score a penalty and has backed that up with multiple across as season is a worthy attribute.
Ask any fan that's been on the end of a losing pen shoot out how little being a great pen taker means....
Happened with Bruno a lot and just comes across as a wibbly, desperate attempt to not accept that a player for a different club is really good.
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
Not entirely sure what you mean by that Nickasaurus, but basically where I'm coming from is this:
I don't think Cole Palmer has done enough to convince us that he should be starting for England over Saka (unless the latter is injured). 1) Because we've seen Saka showing consistent high quality over about three seasons - and is well integrated with his England team mates / understands what Southgate wants from him. And 2) because I don't think Palmer has demonstrated he's a better player than Saka *this season*. As others have said, he is playing in a team with very disciplined positional demands, in a side which has deliberately made itself much harder to break down at the expense of some of the attacking exuberance that Saka epitomised last season. You can argue that it's harder to excel in a team as dysfunctional as Chelsea, but a player who has an eye for a pass and a goal can stand out in a team that's involved in a lot of transitional games: Bruno Fernandes, for instance, has had several seasons as one of the highest scoring midfielders and most prolific chance creators in a series of chaotic, underperforming United sides. I'd imagine Bruno's stats would suffer (while winning all the trophies) if he played for Guardiola's City.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I said earlier in the thread, it just takes a brief look at the heat maps of Palmer and Saka to see who is afforded more freedom.
It’s great for Palmer, and for Chelsea, but he’ll not be allowed to do that for England (and rightly so).
No way should be ahead of Saka on the right for England imo, and barring injury, he simply won’t be.
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 24 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
I said it was a bit of a silly stat. however over 20 goals and a season is still quite a sample size.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a tiny sample size. There's a lot of material written about the dangers of drawing conclusions off one season of overperforming xG, and far more examples of players for whom it's an anomaly than a consistent phenomenon. In fact, unless you can see deficiencies in finishing ability, you may be better off buying a player who is underperforming a high xG than a player overperforming a low xG, as more often than not they revert to the average. Again, this isn't to denigrate Palmer, just to exercise caution about hyping him up too much (which isn't always in the player's best interests).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
were comparing both based on this season. It's that and other metrics this season that we use to guide a more informed opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The EURO's are this season. Picking players on past form isn't how you win tournaments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet it’s worked for every single nation that has won a tournament.
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
I said it was a bit of a silly stat. however over 20 goals and a season is still quite a sample size.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a tiny sample size. There's a lot of material written about the dangers of drawing conclusions off one season of overperforming xG, and far more examples of players for whom it's an anomaly than a consistent phenomenon. In fact, unless you can see deficiencies in finishing ability, you may be better off buying a player who is underperforming a high xG than a player overperforming a low xG, as more often than not they revert to the average. Again, this isn't to denigrate Palmer, just to exercise caution about hyping him up too much (which isn't always in the player's best interests).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like the Liverpool Nunez logic.
One of the biggest differences I think is players like Saka get special treatment, double marked, and Arsenal or City in general face low blocks because they are so threatening.
Palmer will start to get that special attention more and more. He's scored +50% of their goals so stop Palmer stop Chelsea. But also teams feel less threatened by Chelsea so may well play more offensively against them, which may change as Chelsea improve.
That said, the only offensive thing about a Shaun Dyche team is their style of play, so to score 4 against that defensive, reactive type of team is quite something. Aided by the fact they are shiiit!
posted on 16/4/24
comment by TheFoxOutsideTheBox (U20459)
posted 9 minutes ago
Never understand why penalties are used as some form of mitigation around why numbers are good.
Someone who is basically guaranteed to score a penalty and has backed that up with multiple across as season is a worthy attribute.
Ask any fan that's been on the end of a losing pen shoot out how little being a great pen taker means....
Happened with Bruno a lot and just comes across as a wibbly, desperate attempt to not accept that a player for a different club is really good.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally disagree. Something like 80% of penalties are converted. If you regularly take your team's penalties, you're going to get a significant number of goals from them; if someone else takes those penalties, they'll get a significant number of goals instead. Of course you want the best penalty taker to take pens, and that's a valuable asset, but the added value of being the best penalty taker in a team is maybe scoring 1/10 more penalties than the alternative. Number of penalties scored across a season depends far more on the number of penalties won than the quality of the penalty taker.
This isn't about denigrating a player. To flip it around, if Bruno scores 18 goals one season (with 9 penalties) and 10 goals the following season (with no penalties, because none were conceded, or because Rashford took over as the designated penalty taker), does that mean Bruno has contributed far less the second season? No! Both seasons are similarly productive, and very respectable goal stats for a midfielder.
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Robbing Hoody - I taught Szoboszlai how to cushion half volleys (U6374)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
Not entirely sure what you mean by that Nickasaurus, but basically where I'm coming from is this:
I don't think Cole Palmer has done enough to convince us that he should be starting for England over Saka (unless the latter is injured). 1) Because we've seen Saka showing consistent high quality over about three seasons - and is well integrated with his England team mates / understands what Southgate wants from him. And 2) because I don't think Palmer has demonstrated he's a better player than Saka *this season*. As others have said, he is playing in a team with very disciplined positional demands, in a side which has deliberately made itself much harder to break down at the expense of some of the attacking exuberance that Saka epitomised last season. You can argue that it's harder to excel in a team as dysfunctional as Chelsea, but a player who has an eye for a pass and a goal can stand out in a team that's involved in a lot of transitional games: Bruno Fernandes, for instance, has had several seasons as one of the highest scoring midfielders and most prolific chance creators in a series of chaotic, underperforming United sides. I'd imagine Bruno's stats would suffer (while winning all the trophies) if he played for Guardiola's City.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I said earlier in the thread, it just takes a brief look at the heat maps of Palmer and Saka to see who is afforded more freedom.
It’s great for Palmer, and for Chelsea, but he’ll not be allowed to do that for England (and rightly so).
No way should be ahead of Saka on the right for England imo, and barring injury, he simply won’t be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
just had a look at both and not much difference and harder to guage as palmer has also played cam this season so skews it. What is does show is palmer drops deeper a fair bit more to get the ball.
So whether or not that is due to more freedom is something we couldnt possibly say. I just know palmer works hard defensively and sticks to whatever position he's in. hazard use to float a lot more.
posted on 16/4/24
Saka is certainly more of a "winger" however.
Palmer played cam last night.
Wouldn't mind seeing
Kane
Foden Palmer Saka
Rice Bellingham
posted on 16/4/24
I think Bellingham is wasted in a double pivot (particularly when you think about how conservatively Southgate sets up) and he's another player who, at the moment, has to be considered ahead of Cole Palmer in the England set-up. (I'd also have Foden ahead of Palmer in the queue for the attacking midfielder spot if Southgate wanted a more dynamic player on the left wing.)
Keep having to emphasise I'm not saying I don't rate Palmer, and he surely has to be in the squad.
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - I taught Szoboszlai how to cushion half volleys (U6374)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
Not entirely sure what you mean by that Nickasaurus, but basically where I'm coming from is this:
I don't think Cole Palmer has done enough to convince us that he should be starting for England over Saka (unless the latter is injured). 1) Because we've seen Saka showing consistent high quality over about three seasons - and is well integrated with his England team mates / understands what Southgate wants from him. And 2) because I don't think Palmer has demonstrated he's a better player than Saka *this season*. As others have said, he is playing in a team with very disciplined positional demands, in a side which has deliberately made itself much harder to break down at the expense of some of the attacking exuberance that Saka epitomised last season. You can argue that it's harder to excel in a team as dysfunctional as Chelsea, but a player who has an eye for a pass and a goal can stand out in a team that's involved in a lot of transitional games: Bruno Fernandes, for instance, has had several seasons as one of the highest scoring midfielders and most prolific chance creators in a series of chaotic, underperforming United sides. I'd imagine Bruno's stats would suffer (while winning all the trophies) if he played for Guardiola's City.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I said earlier in the thread, it just takes a brief look at the heat maps of Palmer and Saka to see who is afforded more freedom.
It’s great for Palmer, and for Chelsea, but he’ll not be allowed to do that for England (and rightly so).
No way should be ahead of Saka on the right for England imo, and barring injury, he simply won’t be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
just had a look at both and not much difference and harder to guage as palmer has also played cam this season so skews it. What is does show is palmer drops deeper a fair bit more to get the ball.
So whether or not that is due to more freedom is something we couldnt possibly say. I just know palmer works hard defensively and sticks to whatever position he's in. hazard use to float a lot more.
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His heat map from last night shows him having touches all across the pitch.
I wouldn’t over think this, he’s simply allowed more freedom. It’s not really up for debate tbh
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 6 minutes ago
Saka is certainly more of a "winger" however.
Palmer played cam last night.
Wouldn't mind seeing
Kane
Foden Palmer Saka
Rice Bellingham
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That is very strong. We really should do very well this summer.
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
I think Bellingham is wasted in a double pivot (particularly when you think about how conservatively Southgate sets up) and he's another player who, at the moment, has to be considered ahead of Cole Palmer in the England set-up. (I'd also have Foden ahead of Palmer in the queue for the attacking midfielder spot if Southgate wanted a more dynamic player on the left wing.)
Keep having to emphasise I'm not saying I don't rate Palmer, and he surely has to be in the squad.
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People just want to shoehorn all their favourite attacking players into the team. They are then shocked when international managers aren’t stupid enough to do this.
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Robbing Hoody - I taught Szoboszlai how to cushion half volleys (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - I taught Szoboszlai how to cushion half volleys (U6374)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
Not entirely sure what you mean by that Nickasaurus, but basically where I'm coming from is this:
I don't think Cole Palmer has done enough to convince us that he should be starting for England over Saka (unless the latter is injured). 1) Because we've seen Saka showing consistent high quality over about three seasons - and is well integrated with his England team mates / understands what Southgate wants from him. And 2) because I don't think Palmer has demonstrated he's a better player than Saka *this season*. As others have said, he is playing in a team with very disciplined positional demands, in a side which has deliberately made itself much harder to break down at the expense of some of the attacking exuberance that Saka epitomised last season. You can argue that it's harder to excel in a team as dysfunctional as Chelsea, but a player who has an eye for a pass and a goal can stand out in a team that's involved in a lot of transitional games: Bruno Fernandes, for instance, has had several seasons as one of the highest scoring midfielders and most prolific chance creators in a series of chaotic, underperforming United sides. I'd imagine Bruno's stats would suffer (while winning all the trophies) if he played for Guardiola's City.
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I said earlier in the thread, it just takes a brief look at the heat maps of Palmer and Saka to see who is afforded more freedom.
It’s great for Palmer, and for Chelsea, but he’ll not be allowed to do that for England (and rightly so).
No way should be ahead of Saka on the right for England imo, and barring injury, he simply won’t be.
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just had a look at both and not much difference and harder to guage as palmer has also played cam this season so skews it. What is does show is palmer drops deeper a fair bit more to get the ball.
So whether or not that is due to more freedom is something we couldnt possibly say. I just know palmer works hard defensively and sticks to whatever position he's in. hazard use to float a lot more.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His heat map from last night shows him having touches all across the pitch.
I wouldn’t over think this, he’s simply allowed more freedom. It’s not really up for debate tbh
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https://www.sofascore.com/player/cole-palmer/982780#tab:statistics
https://www.sofascore.com/player/bukayo-saka/934235#tab:statistics
‘Not much difference.’
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 17 minutes ago
Saka is certainly more of a "winger" however.
Palmer played cam last night.
Wouldn't mind seeing
Kane
Foden Palmer Saka
Rice Bellingham
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't see Southgate resisting the temptation to throw a Henderson or Phillips in midfield for extra protection.
posted on 16/4/24
posted on 16/4/24
exactly not much difference at all. All red spots down the right, bar palmer in the middle a bit more due to his time at CAM. 8 starts at cam infact.
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
I think Bellingham is wasted in a double pivot (particularly when you think about how conservatively Southgate sets up) and he's another player who, at the moment, has to be considered ahead of Cole Palmer in the England set-up. (I'd also have Foden ahead of Palmer in the queue for the attacking midfielder spot if Southgate wanted a more dynamic player on the left wing.)
Keep having to emphasise I'm not saying I don't rate Palmer, and he surely has to be in the squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People just want to shoehorn all their favourite attacking players into the team. They are then shocked when international managers aren’t stupid enough to do this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldnt mind it if we had a strong DM or box to box to partner Rice, but imo we don't.
posted on 16/4/24
Bellingham ideally players further forward. The best player to compiment Rice in terms of style is Mainoo but the lad is only 18 and played a handful of professional games, shame he isn't a couple years older and more experienced.
posted on 16/4/24
What it shows a non English man is that you have a plethero of talent front 6, who he plays is up to him but you're certainly not short of creativity and goals?
Throw in Watkins and Toney and scoring won't be your problem if Gareth opens up a wee bit
posted on 16/4/24
I guarantee I've watched Palmer more than the rest of you. He is a really good player, but I think that, right now, he and Chelsea are perfect for each other. I wouldn't necessarily assume he'd fit in so well elsewhere. He made the right decision leaving City - he wouldn't have got game time, and there are a lot of wide midfielders ahead of him. But tbh I wish we'd have given him a loan move instead.
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Kamikaze Blue (U7450)
posted 3 minutes ago
I guarantee I've watched Palmer more than the rest of you. He is a really good player, but I think that, right now, he and Chelsea are perfect for each other. I wouldn't necessarily assume he'd fit in so well elsewhere. He made the right decision leaving City - he wouldn't have got game time, and there are a lot of wide midfielders ahead of him. But tbh I wish we'd have given him a loan move instead.
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Did you watch him at youth level?
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Insufferable-Piffle (U4388)
posted 22 minutes ago
What it shows a non English man is that you have a plethero of talent front 6, who he plays is up to him but you're certainly not short of creativity and goals?
Throw in Watkins and Toney and scoring won't be your problem if Gareth opens up a wee bit
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s never that simple at international tournaments, though. In 2006 Brazil had Ronaldo, Adriano, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Cafu and Roberto Carlos on the pitch against France and lost 1-0, as an example.
posted on 16/4/24
As for the OP, it would be useful if Robb could clarify whether or not Cole Palmer is a top talent or a generational one.
posted on 16/4/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Insufferable-Piffle (U4388)
posted 22 minutes ago
What it shows a non English man is that you have a plethero of talent front 6, who he plays is up to him but you're certainly not short of creativity and goals?
Throw in Watkins and Toney and scoring won't be your problem if Gareth opens up a wee bit
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s never that simple at international tournaments, though. In 2006 Brazil had Ronaldo, Adriano, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Cafu and Roberto Carlos on the pitch against France and lost 1-0, as an example.
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Oh I absolutely agree, also don't think the defense is half as good as the attacking options mate but I do enjoy watching the forward players play, and hope they do well at the tourney
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