comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by #4zA (U22472)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 43 minutes ago
I agree with the results so far that the best two options are Potter and Tuchel, would be disappointed with anyone else
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Uer butt nackwater soccer outpoasts like Togo, Tajikstan n England can bennyfit from propper coachin of foreign guys
Only the big boys really shud halve coaches from there nation so if England think they cud imoroove then goid luck too em
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wheres italys manager from?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuscany
comment by #4zA (U22472)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by #4zA (U22472)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 43 minutes ago
I agree with the results so far that the best two options are Potter and Tuchel, would be disappointed with anyone else
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Uer butt nackwater soccer outpoasts like Togo, Tajikstan n England can bennyfit from propper coachin of foreign guys
Only the big boys really shud halve coaches from there nation so if England think they cud imoroove then goid luck too em
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wheres italys manager from?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuscany
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so you're bucking the trend.
It will be interesting to see how Terry does in his coaching career. We've seen Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard already and they've had very mixed success so far. Terry seems to have given himself more time behind the scenes before leaping into any management role. Might be more beneficial to him. He is as well more of a leader type.
Too early for England but if Carsley ends up being our next manager, wouldn't mind seeing Terry step into his shoes for U-21s.
English managers in the PL
Eddie Howe
Sean Dyche
Gary O Neil
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by #4zA (U22472)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by #4zA (U22472)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 43 minutes ago
I agree with the results so far that the best two options are Potter and Tuchel, would be disappointed with anyone else
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Uer butt nackwater soccer outpoasts like Togo, Tajikstan n England can bennyfit from propper coachin of foreign guys
Only the big boys really shud halve coaches from there nation so if England think they cud imoroove then goid luck too em
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wheres italys manager from?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuscany
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so you're bucking the trend.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope
As a MAJOR soccer nation, Italy shud alweighs halve a italian coach
England, as a backwater of the game r free too get outsighed help from superiors
Eddie Howe is a good option imo and I think he might be tempted away from Newcastle.
He's been there 3 years now and after a promising first season, superb second season, the third was a bit disappointing and apparently Newcastle have FFP issues. Deciding to step away from Newcastle now whilst his stock is high and have a crack at the world cup with this talented group of player - yeah, I can see it. If he did the WC and Euros then he'd still only be 50, plenty of time to go back into club management.
I just think he's a good blend of attacking football and organisation. Apparently he went and studied Simeone before the Newcastle gig and you can definitely see a bit of sh*thousery in Newcastle.
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 9 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with this.
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 11 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For me, it's somewhere between the two. There is definitely a culture of fear with regards England, the weight of expectation is heavy. Just changing a manager wont solve that.
Equally, the right manager can help shift the mentality of a group. Southgate has done superbly well as England manager but it can't be denied that his style is conservative, you can see it in his team selections, his tactics and the patterns of player behaviour.
High press, attacking football is successful in league after league. And Spain just won the Euros playing that way. It's the football that the vast majority of our squad will know and be coached in at their clubs.
So I agree there's a mental barrier to overcome and a new manager won't necessarily solve that. But encouraging a more modern and familiar style of football can help. A new manager can help.
comment by Szoboss (U6997)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 11 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For me, it's somewhere between the two. There is definitely a culture of fear with regards England, the weight of expectation is heavy. Just changing a manager wont solve that.
Equally, the right manager can help shift the mentality of a group. Southgate has done superbly well as England manager but it can't be denied that his style is conservative, you can see it in his team selections, his tactics and the patterns of player behaviour.
High press, attacking football is successful in league after league. And Spain just won the Euros playing that way. It's the football that the vast majority of our squad will know and be coached in at their clubs.
So I agree there's a mental barrier to overcome and a new manager won't necessarily solve that. But encouraging a more modern and familiar style of football can help. A new manager can help.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree. What we are looking for is pretty hard to find though.
You need to find an exceptional tactician coupled with exceptional man management - basically what the elite level managers have. They’re not easy to come by - because you’re tackling culture and football philosophy. We’re also relying on the FA to get that right and historically their track record for appointment managers or even understanding the basic root cause of the problem has been atrocious
I’d love to be wrong but I don’t see England winning a tournament in my life time (I’m in my early 40s!)
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 29 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the big football nations have this pressure though, so not sure it's unique to England. Every generation of Brazilian and Argentine footballers have to live with the weight of history. Brazil's team is very often booed and jeered by their own fans, and their ex-players (Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc) often join in the derision, and it just seems toxic. It's actually pretty tame with England where fans are more respectful of players.
Yeah I was going to make that point ^ from what I’m aware the Italian media (for example) are considerably more toxic than ours. I don’t see how a media change would change our approach on the pitch
when a coach who has a track record of getting his teams to keep the ball and create lots of chances comes in and still can't get this England team to click, I will believe that the main problem is mentality
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 29 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the big football nations have this pressure though, so not sure it's unique to England. Every generation of Brazilian and Argentine footballers have to live with the weight of history. Brazil's team is very often booed and jeered by their own fans, and their ex-players (Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc) often join in the derision, and it just seems toxic. It's actually pretty tame with England where fans are more respectful of players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a different pressure. What these other nations have got is a history of winning - and quite often a much more recent one than England.
As an example I’ve spoken with French fans who will be critical of Deschamps but are also nowhere near as bothered about how the team does as England fans are.
They won the WC in 2018 and in 1998 before that. In 98 - Brazil were the favourites, despite the quality in that French team, so again - they didn’t play with fear.
It’s not about being toxic - in a way, that can help teams set up an “us or them” mentality. It’s about the desperation of the whole country to want to win. It’s the constant reminder of ‘58 years of hurt’. It’s the ‘footballs coming home’. The interviews with Geoff Hurst. It’s rammed in these players faces all the time - and the shirt weighs very very heavy.
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 5 minutes ago
when a coach who has a track record of getting his teams to keep the ball and create lots of chances comes in and still can't get this England team to click, I will believe that the main problem is mentality
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ve had some of the best coaches in the world since 66 (and a few of the worst)
Robson, Venables (who was way ahead of his time tactically), Erikssen, Capello etc
These were not bad managers - they had a track record that dwarfed Southgate. Most of them also had an emphasis on keeping the ball during their respective clubs. They all failed to win a thing with talented English players including the Golden Generation
A new manager won’t fix the same old mentality. History is not often wrong…..
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 29 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the big football nations have this pressure though, so not sure it's unique to England. Every generation of Brazilian and Argentine footballers have to live with the weight of history. Brazil's team is very often booed and jeered by their own fans, and their ex-players (Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc) often join in the derision, and it just seems toxic. It's actually pretty tame with England where fans are more respectful of players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a different pressure. What these other nations have got is a history of winning - and quite often a much more recent one than England.
As an example I’ve spoken with French fans who will be critical of Deschamps but are also nowhere near as bothered about how the team does as England fans are.
They won the WC in 2018 and in 1998 before that. In 98 - Brazil were the favourites, despite the quality in that French team, so again - they didn’t play with fear.
It’s not about being toxic - in a way, that can help teams set up an “us or them” mentality. It’s about the desperation of the whole country to want to win. It’s the constant reminder of ‘58 years of hurt’. It’s the ‘footballs coming home’. The interviews with Geoff Hurst. It’s rammed in these players faces all the time - and the shirt weighs very very heavy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This might be true of the big European teams - though the Italian media is pretty rough on their sides - but it's just not true of South Americans. Brazilian players today play with even greater weight of expectation than English players in a much more toxic atmosphere where fans, ex-players, politicians etc openly ridicule them. Argentina are much kinder on their national team these days because they've won the last World Cup and a couple of Copas in a very successful run, but in their lean period before that, they were just as toxic. Wasn't that long ago their media used to call Messi "the Catalan" and unfavorably compare him constantly with Maradonna (with Maradona himself stoking the embers) and it was up to that generation of players to live up to the enormous weight of expectation dumped on their shoulders. The South American media and fans are also far less respectful than their English counterparts who have a better grasp of acceptable limits of criticism.
My point isn't that English players don't have this weight of expectation. It's that it's not really unique.
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 29 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the big football nations have this pressure though, so not sure it's unique to England. Every generation of Brazilian and Argentine footballers have to live with the weight of history. Brazil's team is very often booed and jeered by their own fans, and their ex-players (Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc) often join in the derision, and it just seems toxic. It's actually pretty tame with England where fans are more respectful of players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a different pressure. What these other nations have got is a history of winning - and quite often a much more recent one than England.
As an example I’ve spoken with French fans who will be critical of Deschamps but are also nowhere near as bothered about how the team does as England fans are.
They won the WC in 2018 and in 1998 before that. In 98 - Brazil were the favourites, despite the quality in that French team, so again - they didn’t play with fear.
It’s not about being toxic - in a way, that can help teams set up an “us or them” mentality. It’s about the desperation of the whole country to want to win. It’s the constant reminder of ‘58 years of hurt’. It’s the ‘footballs coming home’. The interviews with Geoff Hurst. It’s rammed in these players faces all the time - and the shirt weighs very very heavy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This might be true of the big European teams - though the Italian media is pretty rough on their sides - but it's just not true of South Americans. Brazilian players today play with even greater weight of expectation than English players in a much more toxic atmosphere where fans, ex-players, politicians etc openly ridicule them. Argentina are much kinder on their national team these days because they've won the last World Cup and a couple of Copas in a very successful run, but in their lean period before that, they were just as toxic. Wasn't that long ago their media used to call Messi "the Catalan" and unfavorably compare him constantly with Maradonna (with Maradona himself stoking the embers) and it was up to that generation of players to live up to the enormous weight of expectation dumped on their shoulders. The South American media and fans are also far less respectful than their English counterparts who have a better grasp of acceptable limits of criticism.
My point isn't that English players don't have this weight of expectation. It's that it's not really unique.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The pressure and expectation is unique. It’s unique to each country and I’m not sure you can compare it and its impacts. I’m not sure there’s another big nation that’s won nothing for nearly 60 years whose players continually get reminded of the folklore of 1966. It was both the best and worst thing that happened to us.
I’m not saying other nations don’t have pressure but it’s completely different and unique to each nation and the impacts are different.
It’s also true to say that at times the pressure in Brazil has had a destabilising impact on the team. The semi final collapse against Germany was one such occasion that shows what negative pressure can do.
The point is - England have been under it, intensely for 60 years and the difference is we have a monkey on our back that the other big nations don’t
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 5 minutes ago
when a coach who has a track record of getting his teams to keep the ball and create lots of chances comes in and still can't get this England team to click, I will believe that the main problem is mentality
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ve had some of the best coaches in the world since 66 (and a few of the worst)
Robson, Venables (who was way ahead of his time tactically), Erikssen, Capello etc
These were not bad managers - they had a track record that dwarfed Southgate. Most of them also had an emphasis on keeping the ball during their respective clubs. They all failed to win a thing with talented English players including the Golden Generation
A new manager won’t fix the same old mentality. History is not often wrong…..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
that's ancient history. This group is now on the brink but can't get over the line because they're outplayed by the best of the best.
I think someone with some actual coaching pedigree could help bridge that gap
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 29 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the big football nations have this pressure though, so not sure it's unique to England. Every generation of Brazilian and Argentine footballers have to live with the weight of history. Brazil's team is very often booed and jeered by their own fans, and their ex-players (Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc) often join in the derision, and it just seems toxic. It's actually pretty tame with England where fans are more respectful of players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a different pressure. What these other nations have got is a history of winning - and quite often a much more recent one than England.
As an example I’ve spoken with French fans who will be critical of Deschamps but are also nowhere near as bothered about how the team does as England fans are.
They won the WC in 2018 and in 1998 before that. In 98 - Brazil were the favourites, despite the quality in that French team, so again - they didn’t play with fear.
It’s not about being toxic - in a way, that can help teams set up an “us or them” mentality. It’s about the desperation of the whole country to want to win. It’s the constant reminder of ‘58 years of hurt’. It’s the ‘footballs coming home’. The interviews with Geoff Hurst. It’s rammed in these players faces all the time - and the shirt weighs very very heavy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This might be true of the big European teams - though the Italian media is pretty rough on their sides - but it's just not true of South Americans. Brazilian players today play with even greater weight of expectation than English players in a much more toxic atmosphere where fans, ex-players, politicians etc openly ridicule them. Argentina are much kinder on their national team these days because they've won the last World Cup and a couple of Copas in a very successful run, but in their lean period before that, they were just as toxic. Wasn't that long ago their media used to call Messi "the Catalan" and unfavorably compare him constantly with Maradonna (with Maradona himself stoking the embers) and it was up to that generation of players to live up to the enormous weight of expectation dumped on their shoulders. The South American media and fans are also far less respectful than their English counterparts who have a better grasp of acceptable limits of criticism.
My point isn't that English players don't have this weight of expectation. It's that it's not really unique.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The pressure and expectation is unique. It’s unique to each country and I’m not sure you can compare it and its impacts. I’m not sure there’s another big nation that’s won nothing for nearly 60 years whose players continually get reminded of the folklore of 1966. It was both the best and worst thing that happened to us.
I’m not saying other nations don’t have pressure but it’s completely different and unique to each nation and the impacts are different.
It’s also true to say that at times the pressure in Brazil has had a destabilising impact on the team. The semi final collapse against Germany was one such occasion that shows what negative pressure can do.
The point is - England have been under it, intensely for 60 years and the difference is we have a monkey on our back that the other big nations don’t
----------------------------------------------------------------------
U jussed halve not quite bean good enuff
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 5 minutes ago
when a coach who has a track record of getting his teams to keep the ball and create lots of chances comes in and still can't get this England team to click, I will believe that the main problem is mentality
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ve had some of the best coaches in the world since 66 (and a few of the worst)
Robson, Venables (who was way ahead of his time tactically), Erikssen, Capello etc
These were not bad managers - they had a track record that dwarfed Southgate. Most of them also had an emphasis on keeping the ball during their respective clubs. They all failed to win a thing with talented English players including the Golden Generation
A new manager won’t fix the same old mentality. History is not often wrong…..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
that's ancient history. This group is now on the brink but can't get over the line because they're outplayed by the best of the best.
I think someone with some actual coaching pedigree could help bridge that gap
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This group were on the brink of going out to Slovakia.
If that had happened (and it probably should have done) it would have been Iceland part 2 and you and I would be having a different debate I suspect
I don’t see this team as the 2nd best in this tournament and I don’t think they’re on the brink of anything. I see the same fear and mentality problems as I’ve seen through out decades of watching England
Not winning anything in 60 years isn’t ancient history - it’s part of who we are. I’m not advocating Southgate stays and I agree he’s tactically poor - but if you think this group of players are going to change into tournament winners under a new manager you’re in for a massive disappointment
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 5 minutes ago
when a coach who has a track record of getting his teams to keep the ball and create lots of chances comes in and still can't get this England team to click, I will believe that the main problem is mentality
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ve had some of the best coaches in the world since 66 (and a few of the worst)
Robson, Venables (who was way ahead of his time tactically), Erikssen, Capello etc
These were not bad managers - they had a track record that dwarfed Southgate. Most of them also had an emphasis on keeping the ball during their respective clubs. They all failed to win a thing with talented English players including the Golden Generation
A new manager won’t fix the same old mentality. History is not often wrong…..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's easier in Southgate's era for us to succeed though. We seem to be producing better young talents now. You can see the changes implemented at youth level - St George's Park, smaller sized pitches for kids etc. are garnering better results as shown by recent success for U-17s, U-19s, U-21s. Players like Foden, Saka, Mainoo, Palmer, Bellingham....probably the best load of young talent at any one time we've had.
Winter breaks have now been introduced for us. Remember when this used to be blamed for the reason for players looking so tired in the past?
Extended squad numbers from 23 to 26, although not as if Southgate used that to his advantage.
Also the strength in opposition in the international scene at the moment is not what it was.
I honestly think we are closer to winning something than we've ever been and other managers from this point onwards can do equally as well as Southgate and hopefully better.
they were on the brink of going out because of the way we were set up though
I just think it's quite a convenient excuse for Southgate to pin it all on the media and the pressure and the noise.
it's on record that we've tried to replicate what France did in 2018 and what Portugal did in 2016. that was a noble goal at the time but it feels like the times have changed with these last two euros winners playing something closer to what you're seeing at the top of the domestic game. It's time to adapt. maybe in the big games this team will continue to freeze up but Im pretty confident that a Tuchel or a potter will have this team play a style more lent to success in the group stages and the earlier knockout games, and that alone should make a big difference to these mentality issues you're talking about.
of course the players shrink and feel outclassed by these teams and, look at the way we play
The only reason England managers don't do so well at major tournaments is because they are just so tired from the hectic scheduling of the PL as well as the pace and physicality of it. Managers of other countries have it easy in their leagues so are fresh for major tournaments.
comment by Jim Duffy (U1734)
posted 50 seconds ago
The only reason England managers don't do so well at major tournaments is because they are just so tired from the hectic scheduling of the PL as well as the pace and physicality of it. Managers of other countries have it easy in their leagues so are fresh for major tournaments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats whut Beckhamingham said yesturday that all the eggstra games they play in EPL tire him out comoare too the Spainish pkayers wh got too ressed all season in El Ligo
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 15 minutes ago
they were on the brink of going out because of the way we were set up though
I just think it's quite a convenient excuse for Southgate to pin it all on the media and the pressure and the noise.
it's on record that we've tried to replicate what France did in 2018 and what Portugal did in 2016. that was a noble goal at the time but it feels like the times have changed with these last two euros winners playing something closer to what you're seeing at the top of the domestic game. It's time to adapt. maybe in the big games this team will continue to freeze up but Im pretty confident that a Tuchel or a potter will have this team play a style more lent to success in the group stages and the earlier knockout games, and that alone should make a big difference to these mentality issues you're talking about.
of course the players shrink and feel outclassed by these teams and, look at the way we play
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the bigger issue is that we haven't created a tempo-dictating midfielder since Carrick, a player who can keep the ball under pressure in the biggest moments.
Winks threatened it for a moment around 17/18 and then got that ankle injury and never came back the same. Phillips did a decent job of it for England but is a crock & its probably a tournament too early for Wharton.
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Next England Boss
Page 2 of 3
posted on 15/7/24
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by #4zA (U22472)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 43 minutes ago
I agree with the results so far that the best two options are Potter and Tuchel, would be disappointed with anyone else
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Uer butt nackwater soccer outpoasts like Togo, Tajikstan n England can bennyfit from propper coachin of foreign guys
Only the big boys really shud halve coaches from there nation so if England think they cud imoroove then goid luck too em
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wheres italys manager from?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuscany
posted on 15/7/24
comment by #4zA (U22472)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by #4zA (U22472)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 43 minutes ago
I agree with the results so far that the best two options are Potter and Tuchel, would be disappointed with anyone else
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Uer butt nackwater soccer outpoasts like Togo, Tajikstan n England can bennyfit from propper coachin of foreign guys
Only the big boys really shud halve coaches from there nation so if England think they cud imoroove then goid luck too em
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wheres italys manager from?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuscany
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so you're bucking the trend.
posted on 15/7/24
It will be interesting to see how Terry does in his coaching career. We've seen Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard already and they've had very mixed success so far. Terry seems to have given himself more time behind the scenes before leaping into any management role. Might be more beneficial to him. He is as well more of a leader type.
Too early for England but if Carsley ends up being our next manager, wouldn't mind seeing Terry step into his shoes for U-21s.
posted on 15/7/24
English managers in the PL
Eddie Howe
Sean Dyche
Gary O Neil
posted on 15/7/24
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by #4zA (U22472)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by #4zA (U22472)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 43 minutes ago
I agree with the results so far that the best two options are Potter and Tuchel, would be disappointed with anyone else
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Uer butt nackwater soccer outpoasts like Togo, Tajikstan n England can bennyfit from propper coachin of foreign guys
Only the big boys really shud halve coaches from there nation so if England think they cud imoroove then goid luck too em
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wheres italys manager from?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuscany
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so you're bucking the trend.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope
As a MAJOR soccer nation, Italy shud alweighs halve a italian coach
England, as a backwater of the game r free too get outsighed help from superiors
posted on 15/7/24
Eddie Howe is a good option imo and I think he might be tempted away from Newcastle.
He's been there 3 years now and after a promising first season, superb second season, the third was a bit disappointing and apparently Newcastle have FFP issues. Deciding to step away from Newcastle now whilst his stock is high and have a crack at the world cup with this talented group of player - yeah, I can see it. If he did the WC and Euros then he'd still only be 50, plenty of time to go back into club management.
I just think he's a good blend of attacking football and organisation. Apparently he went and studied Simeone before the Newcastle gig and you can definitely see a bit of sh*thousery in Newcastle.
posted on 15/7/24
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
posted on 15/7/24
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 9 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with this.
posted on 15/7/24
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 11 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For me, it's somewhere between the two. There is definitely a culture of fear with regards England, the weight of expectation is heavy. Just changing a manager wont solve that.
Equally, the right manager can help shift the mentality of a group. Southgate has done superbly well as England manager but it can't be denied that his style is conservative, you can see it in his team selections, his tactics and the patterns of player behaviour.
High press, attacking football is successful in league after league. And Spain just won the Euros playing that way. It's the football that the vast majority of our squad will know and be coached in at their clubs.
So I agree there's a mental barrier to overcome and a new manager won't necessarily solve that. But encouraging a more modern and familiar style of football can help. A new manager can help.
posted on 15/7/24
comment by Szoboss (U6997)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 11 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For me, it's somewhere between the two. There is definitely a culture of fear with regards England, the weight of expectation is heavy. Just changing a manager wont solve that.
Equally, the right manager can help shift the mentality of a group. Southgate has done superbly well as England manager but it can't be denied that his style is conservative, you can see it in his team selections, his tactics and the patterns of player behaviour.
High press, attacking football is successful in league after league. And Spain just won the Euros playing that way. It's the football that the vast majority of our squad will know and be coached in at their clubs.
So I agree there's a mental barrier to overcome and a new manager won't necessarily solve that. But encouraging a more modern and familiar style of football can help. A new manager can help.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree. What we are looking for is pretty hard to find though.
You need to find an exceptional tactician coupled with exceptional man management - basically what the elite level managers have. They’re not easy to come by - because you’re tackling culture and football philosophy. We’re also relying on the FA to get that right and historically their track record for appointment managers or even understanding the basic root cause of the problem has been atrocious
I’d love to be wrong but I don’t see England winning a tournament in my life time (I’m in my early 40s!)
posted on 15/7/24
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 29 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the big football nations have this pressure though, so not sure it's unique to England. Every generation of Brazilian and Argentine footballers have to live with the weight of history. Brazil's team is very often booed and jeered by their own fans, and their ex-players (Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc) often join in the derision, and it just seems toxic. It's actually pretty tame with England where fans are more respectful of players.
posted on 15/7/24
Yeah I was going to make that point ^ from what I’m aware the Italian media (for example) are considerably more toxic than ours. I don’t see how a media change would change our approach on the pitch
posted on 15/7/24
when a coach who has a track record of getting his teams to keep the ball and create lots of chances comes in and still can't get this England team to click, I will believe that the main problem is mentality
posted on 15/7/24
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 29 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the big football nations have this pressure though, so not sure it's unique to England. Every generation of Brazilian and Argentine footballers have to live with the weight of history. Brazil's team is very often booed and jeered by their own fans, and their ex-players (Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc) often join in the derision, and it just seems toxic. It's actually pretty tame with England where fans are more respectful of players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a different pressure. What these other nations have got is a history of winning - and quite often a much more recent one than England.
As an example I’ve spoken with French fans who will be critical of Deschamps but are also nowhere near as bothered about how the team does as England fans are.
They won the WC in 2018 and in 1998 before that. In 98 - Brazil were the favourites, despite the quality in that French team, so again - they didn’t play with fear.
It’s not about being toxic - in a way, that can help teams set up an “us or them” mentality. It’s about the desperation of the whole country to want to win. It’s the constant reminder of ‘58 years of hurt’. It’s the ‘footballs coming home’. The interviews with Geoff Hurst. It’s rammed in these players faces all the time - and the shirt weighs very very heavy.
posted on 15/7/24
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 5 minutes ago
when a coach who has a track record of getting his teams to keep the ball and create lots of chances comes in and still can't get this England team to click, I will believe that the main problem is mentality
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ve had some of the best coaches in the world since 66 (and a few of the worst)
Robson, Venables (who was way ahead of his time tactically), Erikssen, Capello etc
These were not bad managers - they had a track record that dwarfed Southgate. Most of them also had an emphasis on keeping the ball during their respective clubs. They all failed to win a thing with talented English players including the Golden Generation
A new manager won’t fix the same old mentality. History is not often wrong…..
posted on 15/7/24
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 29 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the big football nations have this pressure though, so not sure it's unique to England. Every generation of Brazilian and Argentine footballers have to live with the weight of history. Brazil's team is very often booed and jeered by their own fans, and their ex-players (Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc) often join in the derision, and it just seems toxic. It's actually pretty tame with England where fans are more respectful of players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a different pressure. What these other nations have got is a history of winning - and quite often a much more recent one than England.
As an example I’ve spoken with French fans who will be critical of Deschamps but are also nowhere near as bothered about how the team does as England fans are.
They won the WC in 2018 and in 1998 before that. In 98 - Brazil were the favourites, despite the quality in that French team, so again - they didn’t play with fear.
It’s not about being toxic - in a way, that can help teams set up an “us or them” mentality. It’s about the desperation of the whole country to want to win. It’s the constant reminder of ‘58 years of hurt’. It’s the ‘footballs coming home’. The interviews with Geoff Hurst. It’s rammed in these players faces all the time - and the shirt weighs very very heavy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This might be true of the big European teams - though the Italian media is pretty rough on their sides - but it's just not true of South Americans. Brazilian players today play with even greater weight of expectation than English players in a much more toxic atmosphere where fans, ex-players, politicians etc openly ridicule them. Argentina are much kinder on their national team these days because they've won the last World Cup and a couple of Copas in a very successful run, but in their lean period before that, they were just as toxic. Wasn't that long ago their media used to call Messi "the Catalan" and unfavorably compare him constantly with Maradonna (with Maradona himself stoking the embers) and it was up to that generation of players to live up to the enormous weight of expectation dumped on their shoulders. The South American media and fans are also far less respectful than their English counterparts who have a better grasp of acceptable limits of criticism.
My point isn't that English players don't have this weight of expectation. It's that it's not really unique.
posted on 15/7/24
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 29 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the big football nations have this pressure though, so not sure it's unique to England. Every generation of Brazilian and Argentine footballers have to live with the weight of history. Brazil's team is very often booed and jeered by their own fans, and their ex-players (Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc) often join in the derision, and it just seems toxic. It's actually pretty tame with England where fans are more respectful of players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a different pressure. What these other nations have got is a history of winning - and quite often a much more recent one than England.
As an example I’ve spoken with French fans who will be critical of Deschamps but are also nowhere near as bothered about how the team does as England fans are.
They won the WC in 2018 and in 1998 before that. In 98 - Brazil were the favourites, despite the quality in that French team, so again - they didn’t play with fear.
It’s not about being toxic - in a way, that can help teams set up an “us or them” mentality. It’s about the desperation of the whole country to want to win. It’s the constant reminder of ‘58 years of hurt’. It’s the ‘footballs coming home’. The interviews with Geoff Hurst. It’s rammed in these players faces all the time - and the shirt weighs very very heavy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This might be true of the big European teams - though the Italian media is pretty rough on their sides - but it's just not true of South Americans. Brazilian players today play with even greater weight of expectation than English players in a much more toxic atmosphere where fans, ex-players, politicians etc openly ridicule them. Argentina are much kinder on their national team these days because they've won the last World Cup and a couple of Copas in a very successful run, but in their lean period before that, they were just as toxic. Wasn't that long ago their media used to call Messi "the Catalan" and unfavorably compare him constantly with Maradonna (with Maradona himself stoking the embers) and it was up to that generation of players to live up to the enormous weight of expectation dumped on their shoulders. The South American media and fans are also far less respectful than their English counterparts who have a better grasp of acceptable limits of criticism.
My point isn't that English players don't have this weight of expectation. It's that it's not really unique.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The pressure and expectation is unique. It’s unique to each country and I’m not sure you can compare it and its impacts. I’m not sure there’s another big nation that’s won nothing for nearly 60 years whose players continually get reminded of the folklore of 1966. It was both the best and worst thing that happened to us.
I’m not saying other nations don’t have pressure but it’s completely different and unique to each nation and the impacts are different.
It’s also true to say that at times the pressure in Brazil has had a destabilising impact on the team. The semi final collapse against Germany was one such occasion that shows what negative pressure can do.
The point is - England have been under it, intensely for 60 years and the difference is we have a monkey on our back that the other big nations don’t
posted on 15/7/24
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 5 minutes ago
when a coach who has a track record of getting his teams to keep the ball and create lots of chances comes in and still can't get this England team to click, I will believe that the main problem is mentality
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ve had some of the best coaches in the world since 66 (and a few of the worst)
Robson, Venables (who was way ahead of his time tactically), Erikssen, Capello etc
These were not bad managers - they had a track record that dwarfed Southgate. Most of them also had an emphasis on keeping the ball during their respective clubs. They all failed to win a thing with talented English players including the Golden Generation
A new manager won’t fix the same old mentality. History is not often wrong…..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
that's ancient history. This group is now on the brink but can't get over the line because they're outplayed by the best of the best.
I think someone with some actual coaching pedigree could help bridge that gap
posted on 15/7/24
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Arteta IN!!! (U7482)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 29 minutes ago
If anyone thinks we’re winning a trophy with these players under Howe, Potter or Poch they’re going to be very disappointed. It’s too simplistic to lay everything at the door of Southgate or to simply suggest if we were more attacking we’d have won tournaments
Part of the reason we sit back, don’t want the ball, go long, panic is part of the reason we also started the tournament so badly and let the game against Italy slip away. It’s also connected to why we froze up against Iceland and why we massively underperformed with the golden generation
It’s fear and the weight of expectation. Southgate has done better than most at instilling more confidence but it’s right there - and far more so as we’ve become more accustomed to being pre-tournament favourites as opposed to being the surprise wild card in 2018
England can’t deal with the expectation - and it won’t change until the country and the media in particular change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All the big football nations have this pressure though, so not sure it's unique to England. Every generation of Brazilian and Argentine footballers have to live with the weight of history. Brazil's team is very often booed and jeered by their own fans, and their ex-players (Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc) often join in the derision, and it just seems toxic. It's actually pretty tame with England where fans are more respectful of players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a different pressure. What these other nations have got is a history of winning - and quite often a much more recent one than England.
As an example I’ve spoken with French fans who will be critical of Deschamps but are also nowhere near as bothered about how the team does as England fans are.
They won the WC in 2018 and in 1998 before that. In 98 - Brazil were the favourites, despite the quality in that French team, so again - they didn’t play with fear.
It’s not about being toxic - in a way, that can help teams set up an “us or them” mentality. It’s about the desperation of the whole country to want to win. It’s the constant reminder of ‘58 years of hurt’. It’s the ‘footballs coming home’. The interviews with Geoff Hurst. It’s rammed in these players faces all the time - and the shirt weighs very very heavy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This might be true of the big European teams - though the Italian media is pretty rough on their sides - but it's just not true of South Americans. Brazilian players today play with even greater weight of expectation than English players in a much more toxic atmosphere where fans, ex-players, politicians etc openly ridicule them. Argentina are much kinder on their national team these days because they've won the last World Cup and a couple of Copas in a very successful run, but in their lean period before that, they were just as toxic. Wasn't that long ago their media used to call Messi "the Catalan" and unfavorably compare him constantly with Maradonna (with Maradona himself stoking the embers) and it was up to that generation of players to live up to the enormous weight of expectation dumped on their shoulders. The South American media and fans are also far less respectful than their English counterparts who have a better grasp of acceptable limits of criticism.
My point isn't that English players don't have this weight of expectation. It's that it's not really unique.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The pressure and expectation is unique. It’s unique to each country and I’m not sure you can compare it and its impacts. I’m not sure there’s another big nation that’s won nothing for nearly 60 years whose players continually get reminded of the folklore of 1966. It was both the best and worst thing that happened to us.
I’m not saying other nations don’t have pressure but it’s completely different and unique to each nation and the impacts are different.
It’s also true to say that at times the pressure in Brazil has had a destabilising impact on the team. The semi final collapse against Germany was one such occasion that shows what negative pressure can do.
The point is - England have been under it, intensely for 60 years and the difference is we have a monkey on our back that the other big nations don’t
----------------------------------------------------------------------
U jussed halve not quite bean good enuff
posted on 15/7/24
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 5 minutes ago
when a coach who has a track record of getting his teams to keep the ball and create lots of chances comes in and still can't get this England team to click, I will believe that the main problem is mentality
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ve had some of the best coaches in the world since 66 (and a few of the worst)
Robson, Venables (who was way ahead of his time tactically), Erikssen, Capello etc
These were not bad managers - they had a track record that dwarfed Southgate. Most of them also had an emphasis on keeping the ball during their respective clubs. They all failed to win a thing with talented English players including the Golden Generation
A new manager won’t fix the same old mentality. History is not often wrong…..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
that's ancient history. This group is now on the brink but can't get over the line because they're outplayed by the best of the best.
I think someone with some actual coaching pedigree could help bridge that gap
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This group were on the brink of going out to Slovakia.
If that had happened (and it probably should have done) it would have been Iceland part 2 and you and I would be having a different debate I suspect
I don’t see this team as the 2nd best in this tournament and I don’t think they’re on the brink of anything. I see the same fear and mentality problems as I’ve seen through out decades of watching England
Not winning anything in 60 years isn’t ancient history - it’s part of who we are. I’m not advocating Southgate stays and I agree he’s tactically poor - but if you think this group of players are going to change into tournament winners under a new manager you’re in for a massive disappointment
posted on 15/7/24
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 5 minutes ago
when a coach who has a track record of getting his teams to keep the ball and create lots of chances comes in and still can't get this England team to click, I will believe that the main problem is mentality
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ve had some of the best coaches in the world since 66 (and a few of the worst)
Robson, Venables (who was way ahead of his time tactically), Erikssen, Capello etc
These were not bad managers - they had a track record that dwarfed Southgate. Most of them also had an emphasis on keeping the ball during their respective clubs. They all failed to win a thing with talented English players including the Golden Generation
A new manager won’t fix the same old mentality. History is not often wrong…..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's easier in Southgate's era for us to succeed though. We seem to be producing better young talents now. You can see the changes implemented at youth level - St George's Park, smaller sized pitches for kids etc. are garnering better results as shown by recent success for U-17s, U-19s, U-21s. Players like Foden, Saka, Mainoo, Palmer, Bellingham....probably the best load of young talent at any one time we've had.
Winter breaks have now been introduced for us. Remember when this used to be blamed for the reason for players looking so tired in the past?
Extended squad numbers from 23 to 26, although not as if Southgate used that to his advantage.
Also the strength in opposition in the international scene at the moment is not what it was.
I honestly think we are closer to winning something than we've ever been and other managers from this point onwards can do equally as well as Southgate and hopefully better.
posted on 15/7/24
they were on the brink of going out because of the way we were set up though
I just think it's quite a convenient excuse for Southgate to pin it all on the media and the pressure and the noise.
it's on record that we've tried to replicate what France did in 2018 and what Portugal did in 2016. that was a noble goal at the time but it feels like the times have changed with these last two euros winners playing something closer to what you're seeing at the top of the domestic game. It's time to adapt. maybe in the big games this team will continue to freeze up but Im pretty confident that a Tuchel or a potter will have this team play a style more lent to success in the group stages and the earlier knockout games, and that alone should make a big difference to these mentality issues you're talking about.
of course the players shrink and feel outclassed by these teams and, look at the way we play
posted on 15/7/24
The only reason England managers don't do so well at major tournaments is because they are just so tired from the hectic scheduling of the PL as well as the pace and physicality of it. Managers of other countries have it easy in their leagues so are fresh for major tournaments.
posted on 15/7/24
comment by Jim Duffy (U1734)
posted 50 seconds ago
The only reason England managers don't do so well at major tournaments is because they are just so tired from the hectic scheduling of the PL as well as the pace and physicality of it. Managers of other countries have it easy in their leagues so are fresh for major tournaments.
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Thats whut Beckhamingham said yesturday that all the eggstra games they play in EPL tire him out comoare too the Spainish pkayers wh got too ressed all season in El Ligo
posted on 15/7/24
comment by Christopher (U20930)
posted 15 minutes ago
they were on the brink of going out because of the way we were set up though
I just think it's quite a convenient excuse for Southgate to pin it all on the media and the pressure and the noise.
it's on record that we've tried to replicate what France did in 2018 and what Portugal did in 2016. that was a noble goal at the time but it feels like the times have changed with these last two euros winners playing something closer to what you're seeing at the top of the domestic game. It's time to adapt. maybe in the big games this team will continue to freeze up but Im pretty confident that a Tuchel or a potter will have this team play a style more lent to success in the group stages and the earlier knockout games, and that alone should make a big difference to these mentality issues you're talking about.
of course the players shrink and feel outclassed by these teams and, look at the way we play
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I think the bigger issue is that we haven't created a tempo-dictating midfielder since Carrick, a player who can keep the ball under pressure in the biggest moments.
Winks threatened it for a moment around 17/18 and then got that ankle injury and never came back the same. Phillips did a decent job of it for England but is a crock & its probably a tournament too early for Wharton.
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