comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
thats why I'd be gutted if we got Zidane in
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 4 minutes ago
Data is the raw information from which statistics are created. Put in the reverse, statistics provide an interpretation and summary of data
------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Alphabetical ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dictionary definition. I read that as they mean pretty much the same thing.
My wife is Marketting Research Manager for a large pharmaceutical company, to put it simply she deals with data and statistics, I asked her, she said "Statistics puts the data together to explain things".
comment by The Spanish Italians - Its all coming home aga... (U21595)
posted 25 minutes ago
I think you could pull out a couple of things and say, the stats don't really show the full truth..
but generally, stats are pretty close to the nuckle.
the team that wins the most games, scores the most goals or whatever usually wins the league etc.
the goalkeeper that keeps the most clean sheets.... the striker winger with the most assists, generally the better players.
of course we have variables, so you can't cling to them... for example a keeper that makes the most saves, usually means a crap defence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean sheets for a goalkeeper and assists for a winger are stats that can be misleading on a fairly regular basis. A keeper who keeps a lot of clean sheets might just not have to save anything. A winger might not get many assists because the player they are creating chances for is a bad finisher.
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're just being an idiot for the sake of it. Par for the course I think. Discussion over.
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 24 seconds ago
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're just being an idiot for the sake of it. Par for the course I think. Discussion over.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis, the stats you sent were arranged in alphabetical order.
Meslier is 33rd when the names are arranged alphabetically.
The point being made is that you can criticise Meslier for a lot of things but having a surname that begins with M is surely not one of them?
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're just being an idiot for the sake of it. Par for the course I think. Discussion over.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise now, I apolgise, because the first keeper, ended in R.
Massive humble pie.
I'm the idiot.
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're just being an idiot for the sake of it. Par for the course I think. Discussion over.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise now, I apolgise, because the first keeper, ended in R.
Massive humble pie.
I'm the idiot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just laugh it off. No one cares. We’ve all being there!
When quoting stats to prove a point it is important to acknowledge that almost no stats are foolproof. Most of them come with some form of context that explains why this may be the case, beyond just "x player bad because this" or "y player good because that".
Meslier makes a hugely important save in the first half yesterday. One that I don't think he;'d make if he was as bad as the internet often likes to make out. Hee also comes off his line to good effect in the second half. Another springs to mind being a key save at 2-0 against Norwich in the play-off semis. He frequently shows up in big moments, and I know that not because of any stat but because I watch him play.
Take Expected Goals as a stat. A striker hugely outscoring their XG can be put down to a multitude of reasons. Not just one. This is where context becomes important. Its why you can't watch football just by watching the stats update during a game.
Agree lubes 👍
Dennis 😂, fair play, we’ve all been there
comment by Lubo - Gyabi, you're gonna be the one tha... (U14008)
posted 42 minutes ago
When quoting stats to prove a point it is important to acknowledge that almost no stats are foolproof. Most of them come with some form of context that explains why this may be the case, beyond just "x player bad because this" or "y player good because that".
Meslier makes a hugely important save in the first half yesterday. One that I don't think he;'d make if he was as bad as the internet often likes to make out. Hee also comes off his line to good effect in the second half. Another springs to mind being a key save at 2-0 against Norwich in the play-off semis. He frequently shows up in big moments, and I know that not because of any stat but because I watch him play.
Take Expected Goals as a stat. A striker hugely outscoring their XG can be put down to a multitude of reasons. Not just one. This is where context becomes important. Its why you can't watch football just by watching the stats update during a game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is excatly what I meant with stats 👍
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 57 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're just being an idiot for the sake of it. Par for the course I think. Discussion over.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise now, I apolgise, because the first keeper, ended in R.
Massive humble pie.
I'm the idiot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’v all done it pal, move on and lets hope we win promotion
Tbf to Dennis the alphabetical list of gk stats that he posted of Meslier compared to the other keepers when you pick the bones out of it put him at about joint 17th best keeper so not exactly flattering but my own personal opinion is for the Championship he will suffice
and probably will still make a howler or two but he won't
be alone on that score as the Cardiff Keeper against
Burnley proved recently and on the whole our defence
should be able to keep the opposition chances down to
one of the lowest in this league and by doing so keep
Meslier at at least joint number 17 in the rankings of shots saved over shots faced which Stevie Wonder can recognise he needs to do better.
comment by Macca & The Metal Hips: fka Wheelchair Dav... (U8194)
posted 20 minutes ago
Tbf to Dennis the alphabetical list of gk stats that he posted of Meslier compared to the other keepers when you pick the bones out of it put him at about joint 17th best keeper so not exactly flattering but my own personal opinion is for the Championship he will suffice
and probably will still make a howler or two but he won't
be alone on that score as the Cardiff Keeper against
Burnley proved recently and on the whole our defence
should be able to keep the opposition chances down to
one of the lowest in this league and by doing so keep
Meslier at at least joint number 17 in the rankings of shots saved over shots faced which Stevie Wonder can recognise he needs to do better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But the two that really count, clean sheets and goals conceded he is number 1 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
Or we just picking stats which just suit our personal view.
I mean we have just spent 3 hours discussing how stats, dont show the whole picture.
shots saved over shots faced
———————————————-
I mean this is a perfect example, no two shots are the same 🤦🤦🤦
A keeper can not be judge on this FFS
comment by Lubo - Gyabi, you're gonna be the one that saves me. (U14008)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
comment by The Spanish Italians - Its all coming home aga... (U21595)
posted 25 minutes ago
I think you could pull out a couple of things and say, the stats don't really show the full truth..
but generally, stats are pretty close to the nuckle.
the team that wins the most games, scores the most goals or whatever usually wins the league etc.
the goalkeeper that keeps the most clean sheets.... the striker winger with the most assists, generally the better players.
of course we have variables, so you can't cling to them... for example a keeper that makes the most saves, usually means a crap defence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean sheets for a goalkeeper and assists for a winger are stats that can be misleading on a fairly regular basis. A keeper who keeps a lot of clean sheets might just not have to save anything. A winger might not get many assists because the player they are creating chances for is a bad finisher.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is also the fact that wr essentially play a front four with a 9 a 10 and two wingers. So you can have, for example, a winger do the the hard work and get the cross in for another player to knock it down to the scorer.
The player who heads it on gets the assist, even though the work was done by the winger.
I think our forward line has worked well mainly because they are all involved in scoring goals be it with the goal itself, the assist or a pass just before that.
Meslier good at some things not so good at others. I don't think he has improved much if any since he arrived at Elland Road. Still a half decent keeper but still not able to command his area. Mr Punch or Missed a punch ?
comment by Mattyp (U8926)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Lubo - Gyabi, you're gonna be the one that saves me. (U14008)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
comment by The Spanish Italians - Its all coming home aga... (U21595)
posted 25 minutes ago
I think you could pull out a couple of things and say, the stats don't really show the full truth..
but generally, stats are pretty close to the nuckle.
the team that wins the most games, scores the most goals or whatever usually wins the league etc.
the goalkeeper that keeps the most clean sheets.... the striker winger with the most assists, generally the better players.
of course we have variables, so you can't cling to them... for example a keeper that makes the most saves, usually means a crap defence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean sheets for a goalkeeper and assists for a winger are stats that can be misleading on a fairly regular basis. A keeper who keeps a lot of clean sheets might just not have to save anything. A winger might not get many assists because the player they are creating chances for is a bad finisher.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is also the fact that wr essentially play a front four with a 9 a 10 and two wingers. So you can have, for example, a winger do the the hard work and get the cross in for another player to knock it down to the scorer.
The player who heads it on gets the assist, even though the work was done by the winger.
I think our forward line has worked well mainly because they are all involved in scoring goals be it with the goal itself, the assist or a pass just before that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Or a striker making a great run, which takes defenders away, creating the same for others to score.
Thats why I trust my eyes than stats
Take skum Liverpool yesterday
They had more possession, more corners and same amount of shots on target.
You’d think it was a close game according to the stats.
In reality, they got absolutely mullered, Liverpool toyed with them, didnt get out of second gear, in second half, and could have won 5/6, if they had put foot down.
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.”😜
Irrespective of stats and without knowing where he ranks I think we can all recognise Meslier needs to improve on his shots saved to shots faced which he did very well with on Saturday so maybe he's going to be a late bloomer but yes stats can certainly fit any agenda
you are trying to make them fit, I don't disagree with that.
Reality is that in the vast majority of cases, players at this level will have holes in their game. If Meslier was better in the areas he needs to improve he wouldn't be here. He's a good championship keeper because he has those flaws, or else he would be a good Premier League keeper.
Yes, I'd like to see him improve his distribution (sometimes the way we set up doesn't help him) and his shots saved, but I think these are genuinely blown out of proportion. Think this is a bit of a make or break season for a still relatively young goalkeeper (bearing in mind how many keepers hit their peak early 30s).
Said in the summer, a lot of people calling to sign goalkeepers based entirely on certain sets of stats, ie Johansson from Rotherham. Keeping is the position on the pitch where I think stats can be most misleading imo. Meslier would have been tougher to replace at this level than people made out. I mean look at our track record for goalkeepers at this level.
Meslier turned 24 in March and I saw these stats from January listing him as 2nd in the world for an under 24 goalie.
https://everybodysoccer.com/even-the-goalkeepers-like-to/2021/1/9/the-worlds-top-24-goalkeepers-under-24
Now this was based on.....
"both current form as well as potential. Considering the demands of the modern game, goalkeepers with confident decision-making abilities, fluidness in the box, and strong athleticism scored high while others fell below or were left off the list entirely."
ie. none of the xg stuff, clean sheets, etc .
Like said above, stats can be made to look like what you want them to prove. Yet this approach could be considered basically opinion-based, having no more or less validity. Interesting thoughts though from an outside body.
At the end of the day, your own perspective will be based a mix of it all.... performance stats, level of experience and level being played, and your own expectations (whether reasonable or not).
No one is right or wrong.
However, I don't think anyone seems to be saying he's a major problem to be fixed this year.
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 1 hour, 45 minutes ago
Take skum Liverpool yesterday
They had more possession, more corners and same amount of shots on target.
You’d think it was a close game according to the stats.
In reality, they got absolutely mullered, Liverpool toyed with them, didnt get out of second gear, in second half, and could have won 5/6, if they had put foot down.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You could even look at our opening game against Pompey, just going by the stats you would never believe the scoreline.
I always remember growing up in the 70's questioning the stat used by kitty kat cat food....8 out of 10 owners say their cats prefer it.....really????
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Mattyp (U8926)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Lubo - Gyabi, you're gonna be the one that saves me. (U14008)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
comment by The Spanish Italians - Its all coming home aga... (U21595)
posted 25 minutes ago
I think you could pull out a couple of things and say, the stats don't really show the full truth..
but generally, stats are pretty close to the nuckle.
the team that wins the most games, scores the most goals or whatever usually wins the league etc.
the goalkeeper that keeps the most clean sheets.... the striker winger with the most assists, generally the better players.
of course we have variables, so you can't cling to them... for example a keeper that makes the most saves, usually means a crap defence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean sheets for a goalkeeper and assists for a winger are stats that can be misleading on a fairly regular basis. A keeper who keeps a lot of clean sheets might just not have to save anything. A winger might not get many assists because the player they are creating chances for is a bad finisher.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is also the fact that wr essentially play a front four with a 9 a 10 and two wingers. So you can have, for example, a winger do the the hard work and get the cross in for another player to knock it down to the scorer.
The player who heads it on gets the assist, even though the work was done by the winger.
I think our forward line has worked well mainly because they are all involved in scoring goals be it with the goal itself, the assist or a pass just before that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Or a striker making a great run, which takes defenders away, creating the same for others to score.
Thats why I trust my eyes than stats
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. I turned on Liverpool game yesterday and the screen was covered with stats. The screen with the game was reduced to about a third the regular size Took me a few minutes to figure out how to get rid of it.
Watching like that you'd have no clue what's going on. Stats are good but they don't tell the whole story
Sign in if you want to comment
Mateo
Page 3 of 4
posted on 2/9/24
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
posted on 2/9/24
thats why I'd be gutted if we got Zidane in
posted on 2/9/24
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 4 minutes ago
Data is the raw information from which statistics are created. Put in the reverse, statistics provide an interpretation and summary of data
------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Alphabetical ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dictionary definition. I read that as they mean pretty much the same thing.
My wife is Marketting Research Manager for a large pharmaceutical company, to put it simply she deals with data and statistics, I asked her, she said "Statistics puts the data together to explain things".
posted on 2/9/24
comment by The Spanish Italians - Its all coming home aga... (U21595)
posted 25 minutes ago
I think you could pull out a couple of things and say, the stats don't really show the full truth..
but generally, stats are pretty close to the nuckle.
the team that wins the most games, scores the most goals or whatever usually wins the league etc.
the goalkeeper that keeps the most clean sheets.... the striker winger with the most assists, generally the better players.
of course we have variables, so you can't cling to them... for example a keeper that makes the most saves, usually means a crap defence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean sheets for a goalkeeper and assists for a winger are stats that can be misleading on a fairly regular basis. A keeper who keeps a lot of clean sheets might just not have to save anything. A winger might not get many assists because the player they are creating chances for is a bad finisher.
posted on 2/9/24
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're just being an idiot for the sake of it. Par for the course I think. Discussion over.
posted on 2/9/24
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 24 seconds ago
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're just being an idiot for the sake of it. Par for the course I think. Discussion over.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis, the stats you sent were arranged in alphabetical order.
Meslier is 33rd when the names are arranged alphabetically.
The point being made is that you can criticise Meslier for a lot of things but having a surname that begins with M is surely not one of them?
posted on 2/9/24
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're just being an idiot for the sake of it. Par for the course I think. Discussion over.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise now, I apolgise, because the first keeper, ended in R.
Massive humble pie.
I'm the idiot.
posted on 2/9/24
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're just being an idiot for the sake of it. Par for the course I think. Discussion over.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise now, I apolgise, because the first keeper, ended in R.
Massive humble pie.
I'm the idiot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just laugh it off. No one cares. We’ve all being there!
posted on 2/9/24
When quoting stats to prove a point it is important to acknowledge that almost no stats are foolproof. Most of them come with some form of context that explains why this may be the case, beyond just "x player bad because this" or "y player good because that".
Meslier makes a hugely important save in the first half yesterday. One that I don't think he;'d make if he was as bad as the internet often likes to make out. Hee also comes off his line to good effect in the second half. Another springs to mind being a key save at 2-0 against Norwich in the play-off semis. He frequently shows up in big moments, and I know that not because of any stat but because I watch him play.
Take Expected Goals as a stat. A striker hugely outscoring their XG can be put down to a multitude of reasons. Not just one. This is where context becomes important. Its why you can't watch football just by watching the stats update during a game.
posted on 2/9/24
Agree lubes 👍
Dennis 😂, fair play, we’ve all been there
posted on 2/9/24
comment by Lubo - Gyabi, you're gonna be the one tha... (U14008)
posted 42 minutes ago
When quoting stats to prove a point it is important to acknowledge that almost no stats are foolproof. Most of them come with some form of context that explains why this may be the case, beyond just "x player bad because this" or "y player good because that".
Meslier makes a hugely important save in the first half yesterday. One that I don't think he;'d make if he was as bad as the internet often likes to make out. Hee also comes off his line to good effect in the second half. Another springs to mind being a key save at 2-0 against Norwich in the play-off semis. He frequently shows up in big moments, and I know that not because of any stat but because I watch him play.
Take Expected Goals as a stat. A striker hugely outscoring their XG can be put down to a multitude of reasons. Not just one. This is where context becomes important. Its why you can't watch football just by watching the stats update during a game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is excatly what I meant with stats 👍
posted on 2/9/24
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 57 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Dennis. (U23086)
posted 3 minutes ago
Data and statistics are both just information, it's how you interpret and use them.
In relation to the information about the keepers from last year Klaesson had better figures than Meslier but you'd expect that from the number of appearances he made, you can only really base it on keepers who are regular, so of course Meslier wasn't 30 something worst keeper in the league but we could have done and can do much better. We are screaming out for a better keeper.
He scares the bejesus out of me and I am certain he will cost us goals.
I really hope he proves me wrong though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well you interpreted that alphabetically Mes was 33rd best last season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're just being an idiot for the sake of it. Par for the course I think. Discussion over.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise now, I apolgise, because the first keeper, ended in R.
Massive humble pie.
I'm the idiot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’v all done it pal, move on and lets hope we win promotion
posted on 2/9/24
Tbf to Dennis the alphabetical list of gk stats that he posted of Meslier compared to the other keepers when you pick the bones out of it put him at about joint 17th best keeper so not exactly flattering but my own personal opinion is for the Championship he will suffice
and probably will still make a howler or two but he won't
be alone on that score as the Cardiff Keeper against
Burnley proved recently and on the whole our defence
should be able to keep the opposition chances down to
one of the lowest in this league and by doing so keep
Meslier at at least joint number 17 in the rankings of shots saved over shots faced which Stevie Wonder can recognise he needs to do better.
posted on 2/9/24
comment by Macca & The Metal Hips: fka Wheelchair Dav... (U8194)
posted 20 minutes ago
Tbf to Dennis the alphabetical list of gk stats that he posted of Meslier compared to the other keepers when you pick the bones out of it put him at about joint 17th best keeper so not exactly flattering but my own personal opinion is for the Championship he will suffice
and probably will still make a howler or two but he won't
be alone on that score as the Cardiff Keeper against
Burnley proved recently and on the whole our defence
should be able to keep the opposition chances down to
one of the lowest in this league and by doing so keep
Meslier at at least joint number 17 in the rankings of shots saved over shots faced which Stevie Wonder can recognise he needs to do better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But the two that really count, clean sheets and goals conceded he is number 1 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
Or we just picking stats which just suit our personal view.
I mean we have just spent 3 hours discussing how stats, dont show the whole picture.
shots saved over shots faced
———————————————-
I mean this is a perfect example, no two shots are the same 🤦🤦🤦
A keeper can not be judge on this FFS
posted on 2/9/24
comment by Lubo - Gyabi, you're gonna be the one that saves me. (U14008)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
comment by The Spanish Italians - Its all coming home aga... (U21595)
posted 25 minutes ago
I think you could pull out a couple of things and say, the stats don't really show the full truth..
but generally, stats are pretty close to the nuckle.
the team that wins the most games, scores the most goals or whatever usually wins the league etc.
the goalkeeper that keeps the most clean sheets.... the striker winger with the most assists, generally the better players.
of course we have variables, so you can't cling to them... for example a keeper that makes the most saves, usually means a crap defence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean sheets for a goalkeeper and assists for a winger are stats that can be misleading on a fairly regular basis. A keeper who keeps a lot of clean sheets might just not have to save anything. A winger might not get many assists because the player they are creating chances for is a bad finisher.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is also the fact that wr essentially play a front four with a 9 a 10 and two wingers. So you can have, for example, a winger do the the hard work and get the cross in for another player to knock it down to the scorer.
The player who heads it on gets the assist, even though the work was done by the winger.
I think our forward line has worked well mainly because they are all involved in scoring goals be it with the goal itself, the assist or a pass just before that.
posted on 2/9/24
Meslier good at some things not so good at others. I don't think he has improved much if any since he arrived at Elland Road. Still a half decent keeper but still not able to command his area. Mr Punch or Missed a punch ?
posted on 2/9/24
comment by Mattyp (U8926)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Lubo - Gyabi, you're gonna be the one that saves me. (U14008)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
comment by The Spanish Italians - Its all coming home aga... (U21595)
posted 25 minutes ago
I think you could pull out a couple of things and say, the stats don't really show the full truth..
but generally, stats are pretty close to the nuckle.
the team that wins the most games, scores the most goals or whatever usually wins the league etc.
the goalkeeper that keeps the most clean sheets.... the striker winger with the most assists, generally the better players.
of course we have variables, so you can't cling to them... for example a keeper that makes the most saves, usually means a crap defence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean sheets for a goalkeeper and assists for a winger are stats that can be misleading on a fairly regular basis. A keeper who keeps a lot of clean sheets might just not have to save anything. A winger might not get many assists because the player they are creating chances for is a bad finisher.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is also the fact that wr essentially play a front four with a 9 a 10 and two wingers. So you can have, for example, a winger do the the hard work and get the cross in for another player to knock it down to the scorer.
The player who heads it on gets the assist, even though the work was done by the winger.
I think our forward line has worked well mainly because they are all involved in scoring goals be it with the goal itself, the assist or a pass just before that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Or a striker making a great run, which takes defenders away, creating the same for others to score.
Thats why I trust my eyes than stats
posted on 2/9/24
Take skum Liverpool yesterday
They had more possession, more corners and same amount of shots on target.
You’d think it was a close game according to the stats.
In reality, they got absolutely mullered, Liverpool toyed with them, didnt get out of second gear, in second half, and could have won 5/6, if they had put foot down.
posted on 2/9/24
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.”😜
posted on 2/9/24
Irrespective of stats and without knowing where he ranks I think we can all recognise Meslier needs to improve on his shots saved to shots faced which he did very well with on Saturday so maybe he's going to be a late bloomer but yes stats can certainly fit any agenda
you are trying to make them fit, I don't disagree with that.
posted on 2/9/24
Reality is that in the vast majority of cases, players at this level will have holes in their game. If Meslier was better in the areas he needs to improve he wouldn't be here. He's a good championship keeper because he has those flaws, or else he would be a good Premier League keeper.
Yes, I'd like to see him improve his distribution (sometimes the way we set up doesn't help him) and his shots saved, but I think these are genuinely blown out of proportion. Think this is a bit of a make or break season for a still relatively young goalkeeper (bearing in mind how many keepers hit their peak early 30s).
Said in the summer, a lot of people calling to sign goalkeepers based entirely on certain sets of stats, ie Johansson from Rotherham. Keeping is the position on the pitch where I think stats can be most misleading imo. Meslier would have been tougher to replace at this level than people made out. I mean look at our track record for goalkeepers at this level.
posted on 2/9/24
Meslier turned 24 in March and I saw these stats from January listing him as 2nd in the world for an under 24 goalie.
https://everybodysoccer.com/even-the-goalkeepers-like-to/2021/1/9/the-worlds-top-24-goalkeepers-under-24
Now this was based on.....
"both current form as well as potential. Considering the demands of the modern game, goalkeepers with confident decision-making abilities, fluidness in the box, and strong athleticism scored high while others fell below or were left off the list entirely."
ie. none of the xg stuff, clean sheets, etc .
Like said above, stats can be made to look like what you want them to prove. Yet this approach could be considered basically opinion-based, having no more or less validity. Interesting thoughts though from an outside body.
At the end of the day, your own perspective will be based a mix of it all.... performance stats, level of experience and level being played, and your own expectations (whether reasonable or not).
No one is right or wrong.
However, I don't think anyone seems to be saying he's a major problem to be fixed this year.
posted on 2/9/24
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 1 hour, 45 minutes ago
Take skum Liverpool yesterday
They had more possession, more corners and same amount of shots on target.
You’d think it was a close game according to the stats.
In reality, they got absolutely mullered, Liverpool toyed with them, didnt get out of second gear, in second half, and could have won 5/6, if they had put foot down.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You could even look at our opening game against Pompey, just going by the stats you would never believe the scoreline.
posted on 2/9/24
I always remember growing up in the 70's questioning the stat used by kitty kat cat food....8 out of 10 owners say their cats prefer it.....really????
posted on 2/9/24
comment by LIW 100 Points, champions, Undefeated (U8453)
posted 3 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Mattyp (U8926)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Lubo - Gyabi, you're gonna be the one that saves me. (U14008)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
comment by The Spanish Italians - Its all coming home aga... (U21595)
posted 25 minutes ago
I think you could pull out a couple of things and say, the stats don't really show the full truth..
but generally, stats are pretty close to the nuckle.
the team that wins the most games, scores the most goals or whatever usually wins the league etc.
the goalkeeper that keeps the most clean sheets.... the striker winger with the most assists, generally the better players.
of course we have variables, so you can't cling to them... for example a keeper that makes the most saves, usually means a crap defence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean sheets for a goalkeeper and assists for a winger are stats that can be misleading on a fairly regular basis. A keeper who keeps a lot of clean sheets might just not have to save anything. A winger might not get many assists because the player they are creating chances for is a bad finisher.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is also the fact that wr essentially play a front four with a 9 a 10 and two wingers. So you can have, for example, a winger do the the hard work and get the cross in for another player to knock it down to the scorer.
The player who heads it on gets the assist, even though the work was done by the winger.
I think our forward line has worked well mainly because they are all involved in scoring goals be it with the goal itself, the assist or a pass just before that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Or a striker making a great run, which takes defenders away, creating the same for others to score.
Thats why I trust my eyes than stats
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. I turned on Liverpool game yesterday and the screen was covered with stats. The screen with the game was reduced to about a third the regular size Took me a few minutes to figure out how to get rid of it.
Watching like that you'd have no clue what's going on. Stats are good but they don't tell the whole story
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