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What if I told you…

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posted on 2/9/24

tomatoes is too thick and angry to read actual sentences.

posted on 2/9/24

comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 3 minutes ago
Are we really judging Zirkzee after 3 games? After he came on and finished well for his goal against Fulham, we were suddenly going, 'great buy', now he's missed a couple of easy ones, it's 'terrible buy'.

Let's at least allow him a run of games to show what he can do etc.

Rashford is not our only problem, we have so many, but it's easier to make a judgment on him as he has been here so long, and without going round in circles, for me he's simply not been good enough. This is purely a footballing judgment, nothing else.

Let's also not judge how the transfer window has been based on yesterday - players need time to settle in etc.

But ETH needs to get the ball rolling quickly. It's crazy to suggest he should be sacked right now, but for his sake, he needs a great deal improvement over the next half dozen games to show he is making some process. He's into his third year, he's not going to get a lot of slack from fans, which isn't surprising, and personally I feel it's simply a case of when he goes, not if.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Zirkzee is a terrible buy simply because he’s not what we needed. We needed consistency after a season of a record low number of goals. But instead we doubled down on another green striker who can’t be relied on.

I’m sure he’ll have a few good moments here and there over the season and probably isn’t a bad player. But for a club as big as ours we needed to get a striker in who can be relied on in the biggest of moments to convert chances.

posted on 2/9/24

Toney in your side yesterday and against Brighton I think you'd have at least 7 points from your opening 3 games as would Chelsea and Spurs if they'd signed him for the £50 million Brentford were apparantly demanding from a EPL club for a proven player, okay in the final year of his contract, but he definitely knows where the back of the
net is.

I'm amazed even with all the financial hoops clubs now have to jump through, Toney was ignored as the available stand our goal poaching and goal making machine that he is for a fee that what is in today's
market for an established striker not that expensive but that is what has happened and I suspect Man U Chelsea and Spurs come the end of the season will regret that decision.

posted on 2/9/24

comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 (U1192)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 13 seconds ago
Mount is probably our best signing on paper. Proven player for a top club, but he's a crock and should never have been bought.

**************************************

I feel we suffer from poor memories. Best signing how? A player Chelsea let go so easily. A few good games and ....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chelsea's player of the year two years running. Proven in the PL. Young, energetic, scored goals. Then he became a sick note and we bought him anyway.

My point was, Mane was already doing it in the PL and it was easy to see he'd do well at a top club.

We seem to be buying unproven players in weaker leagues for ridiculous amounts of money.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proven is a very relative term. Palmer at Chelsea is untested. More so than Mount and yet we should know that ability should stand out over everything. We are thinking we can pay for our short cuts to success and if we pay a reasonable amount for them it will lead to results.

That is the point I am trying to make. We are trying to buy someones finished product or semi-finished thinking it will help us but most of our failures are from that mindset. Worst part is as soon as they reject us we want them more.

Mount is the type of signings that has been our undoing. You just have a record of his past history when football these days needs us predicting their future. Now people are criticizing Zirkzee, someone no one has seen at his peak, for Rashford or Bruno who we have seen their peak and are heading the other way.

By the way, where is the next Mane? Where is the next Jamie Vardy? When last did we go and scourer the Prem and get the best they have to offer? This was the MO of fergie yet we are the greatest suppliers instead. We just go for the most "famous"target.

posted on 2/9/24

comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 33 minutes ago
tomatoes is too thick and angry to read actual sentences.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And your mindset is so simple. In fact, I know exactly what defined your footballing mind.

posted on 2/9/24

Players from the PL we should have gone for in recent times

Toney
Mateta
Antony Gordon
Marc Guehi (imo one of the top CBs in the league now and was available)
Morgan Rogers (is going to be top class imo)

comment by kinsang (U3346)

posted on 2/9/24

comment by Robb Raygun (U22716)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 3 minutes ago
Are we really judging Zirkzee after 3 games? After he came on and finished well for his goal against Fulham, we were suddenly going, 'great buy', now he's missed a couple of easy ones, it's 'terrible buy'.

Let's at least allow him a run of games to show what he can do etc.

Rashford is not our only problem, we have so many, but it's easier to make a judgment on him as he has been here so long, and without going round in circles, for me he's simply not been good enough. This is purely a footballing judgment, nothing else.

Let's also not judge how the transfer window has been based on yesterday - players need time to settle in etc.

But ETH needs to get the ball rolling quickly. It's crazy to suggest he should be sacked right now, but for his sake, he needs a great deal improvement over the next half dozen games to show he is making some process. He's into his third year, he's not going to get a lot of slack from fans, which isn't surprising, and personally I feel it's simply a case of when he goes, not if.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Zirkzee is a terrible buy simply because he’s not what we needed. We needed consistency after a season of a record low number of goals. But instead we doubled down on another green striker who can’t be relied on.

I’m sure he’ll have a few good moments here and there over the season and probably isn’t a bad player. But for a club as big as ours we needed to get a striker in who can be relied on in the biggest of moments to convert chances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree with the fact that we should have gone for an out and out striker, and why Toney wasn't an option for us I'll never know. But we are where we are now, and as we have brought in Zirkzee, I think we just need to give him a fair crack of the whip. He's in a tough position, coming into a side where almost miracles are expected of him. But I think these players are capable of so much better, and that's not likely to happen with ETH

posted on 2/9/24

comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 33 minutes ago
tomatoes is too thick and angry to read actual sentences.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And your mindset is so simple. In fact, I know exactly what defined your footballing mind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wait with bated breath.

posted on 2/9/24

Not sure if it matters too much about buying premier league proven players, but having players in, or approaching, their prime matters.

Liverpool’s front three was Salah, Diaz and Jota. These guys are in their prime and were ultimately the difference between the two teams yesterday.

posted on 2/9/24

comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 5 seconds ago
Not sure if it matters too much about buying premier league proven players, but having players in, or approaching, their prime matters.

Liverpool’s front three was Salah, Diaz and Jota. These guys are in their prime and were ultimately the difference between the two teams yesterday.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

That and also this …

https://x.com/tenhagera/status/1830328395139260587?s=46

posted on 2/9/24

comment by Robb Raygun (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 5 seconds ago
Not sure if it matters too much about buying premier league proven players, but having players in, or approaching, their prime matters.

Liverpool’s front three was Salah, Diaz and Jota. These guys are in their prime and were ultimately the difference between the two teams yesterday.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

That and also this …

https://x.com/tenhagera/status/1830328395139260587?s=46

----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that’s also the forwards executing it once winning the ball. We did that loads of times as well but poor play in the final third facked so many good opportunities to punish their defence.

comment by kinsang (U3346)

posted on 2/9/24

Liverpool are simply a better team than us right now and have been for a number of seasons now. It's up to us to raise our game when we play them and in the longer term get as much out of our squad as they do. They have a mixture of youngsters, players in their prime and the odd older one, but a quad who know clearly what is expected of them and how they want to play.
That identity and togetherness is missing from us, and until we get that, we will always be behind them. For me, it's much more than just their front 3, that's just the cherry on top

posted on 2/9/24

Come on tomatoes, where is this expert analysis of my footballing mind?

posted on 2/9/24

comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 57 minutes ago
comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 (U1192)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 13 seconds ago
Mount is probably our best signing on paper. Proven player for a top club, but he's a crock and should never have been bought.

**************************************

I feel we suffer from poor memories. Best signing how? A player Chelsea let go so easily. A few good games and ....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chelsea's player of the year two years running. Proven in the PL. Young, energetic, scored goals. Then he became a sick note and we bought him anyway.

My point was, Mane was already doing it in the PL and it was easy to see he'd do well at a top club.

We seem to be buying unproven players in weaker leagues for ridiculous amounts of money.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proven is a very relative term. Palmer at Chelsea is untested. More so than Mount and yet we should know that ability should stand out over everything. We are thinking we can pay for our short cuts to success and if we pay a reasonable amount for them it will lead to results.

That is the point I am trying to make. We are trying to buy someones finished product or semi-finished thinking it will help us but most of our failures are from that mindset. Worst part is as soon as they reject us we want them more.

Mount is the type of signings that has been our undoing. You just have a record of his past history when football these days needs us predicting their future. Now people are criticizing Zirkzee, someone no one has seen at his peak, for Rashford or Bruno who we have seen their peak and are heading the other way.

By the way, where is the next Mane? Where is the next Jamie Vardy? When last did we go and scourer the Prem and get the best they have to offer? This was the MO of fergie yet we are the greatest suppliers instead. We just go for the most "famous"target.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eh?

You're not really replying to what I'm saying but nevermind.

How are the players we bought famous targets?

Hoilund, Zirkzee, Antony, Onana?

Who else was going for these players?

We overpaid on all 4 of them, when no other top club really wanted them.

posted on 2/9/24

comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 24 minutes ago
comment by Robb Raygun (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 5 seconds ago
Not sure if it matters too much about buying premier league proven players, but having players in, or approaching, their prime matters.

Liverpool’s front three was Salah, Diaz and Jota. These guys are in their prime and were ultimately the difference between the two teams yesterday.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

That and also this …

https://x.com/tenhagera/status/1830328395139260587?s=46

----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that’s also the forwards executing it once winning the ball. We did that loads of times as well but poor play in the final third facked so many good opportunities to punish their defence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

What's annoying about their first goal is that we were actually in a fantastic position to get at Liverpool. Their 5 players stationed higher up the pitch would have been taken completely out of the game had Casemiro taken a touch a dinked an easy pass to one of our fullbacks who had gotten in behind. From a CDM's perspective, that position Casemiro had the ball in was the dream: time and space, no pressure, with at least three excellent passing options that were not hard to execute and would have been very effective at starting a dangerous move.

Our full backs taking up more aggressive positions would and should have worked very well and Liverpool's press would and should have been beaten more easily and consistently, especially in that moment. Slot mentioning that our FB's played high and they exploited it looks insightful in hindsight but the reality is that it would have looked like a masterclass from ETH if Casemiro could have actually played football yesterday.

And as you mentioned Darren, we won the ball back in very similar positions to what Liverpool did, but Liverpool have top players at the peak of their powers in attack and we don't (yet).

posted on 2/9/24

comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 57 seconds ago
comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 24 minutes ago
comment by Robb Raygun (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 5 seconds ago
Not sure if it matters too much about buying premier league proven players, but having players in, or approaching, their prime matters.

Liverpool’s front three was Salah, Diaz and Jota. These guys are in their prime and were ultimately the difference between the two teams yesterday.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

That and also this …

https://x.com/tenhagera/status/1830328395139260587?s=46

----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that’s also the forwards executing it once winning the ball. We did that loads of times as well but poor play in the final third facked so many good opportunities to punish their defence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

What's annoying about their first goal is that we were actually in a fantastic position to get at Liverpool. Their 5 players stationed higher up the pitch would have been taken completely out of the game had Casemiro taken a touch a dinked an easy pass to one of our fullbacks who had gotten in behind. From a CDM's perspective, that position Casemiro had the ball in was the dream: time and space, no pressure, with at least three excellent passing options that were not hard to execute and would have been very effective at starting a dangerous move.

Our full backs taking up more aggressive positions would and should have worked very well and Liverpool's press would and should have been beaten more easily and consistently, especially in that moment. Slot mentioning that our FB's played high and they exploited it looks insightful in hindsight but the reality is that it would have looked like a masterclass from ETH if Casemiro could have actually played football yesterday.

And as you mentioned Darren, we won the ball back in very similar positions to what Liverpool did, but Liverpool have top players at the peak of their powers in attack and we don't (yet).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. It was similar with the second goal as well, Casemiro had plenty of options and gave it straight to Liverpool. I don’t think Martinez covered himself in glory defensively for all three goals either.

But this isn’t exactly some tactical masterclass by Liverpool. They just exploited the mistakes much better than we did, and it’s not like Casemiro’s really been forcer into these errors - Mainoo’s was as he was just caught on the ball.

It’s a risky game to play against Liverpool, because they’re so devastating in transition, so that’s a fair criticism of how we set up because we didn’t get punished. But we’ve left ourselves in this situation with our attackers where even if we can outnumber the opponents, which we have done often, we haven’t the quality to punish teams.

posted on 2/9/24

*did get punished

posted on 2/9/24

I don’t think Martinez covered himself in glory defensively for all three goals either.
-----------------

I love Martinez and know he's still getting up to speed having been one that didn't really have preseason, but I did say all summer that I'd like to see us sign some powerful, athletic CB's and push Martinez into CDM. He's more mobile than Casemiro and better on the ball - he plays like CDM slotting in at CB as he's so much more fleet footed and nimble than other ball-playing CB's - but some extra pace and power, especially in one v ones - would be handy at LCB.

If Everton get relegated then I assume we'll go back in for Branthwaite.

posted on 2/9/24

Not sure he’ll he used as a midfielder, to be honest. But I do think he’ll drop out of the first team in the coming seasons because he does limit us defensively and is a big problem when playing a high line and leaving the defence with space to cover. I really like him as a player, so hopefully he’ll be happy to contribute as a squad player where needed. But I do think people tend to really gloss over how many disaster classes he has for us, particularly against Liverpool. I think Shaw is similar, both absolutely shiiiiit the bed regularly against Liverpool.

posted on 2/9/24

We really should have gone for Guehi. Genuinely top CB and would walk in and improve us immediately.

posted on 2/9/24

How often did you mention us getting Guehi before the Euros?

posted on 2/9/24

comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 6 minutes ago
How often did you mention us getting Guehi before the Euros?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

How often are you gonna make snide comments? Make love not war dude.

posted on 2/9/24

Ha, whenever you make reactionary statements which I guess is pretty often.

posted on 2/9/24

comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 1 minute ago
Ha, whenever you make reactionary statements which I guess is pretty often.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess that says more about you than me

posted on 2/9/24

comment by Robb Raygun (U22716)
posted 21 minutes ago
We really should have gone for Guehi. Genuinely top CB and would walk in and improve us immediately.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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