So strange people on here want our best player (by a country mile) benched... Very strange!
Bruno's a funny one, statistically he offers so much and he is our most creative but you could argue that we are set up to go through him so he inevitably will be the most creative.
I think there is defintely a discussion about how we want to set up moving forward and whether we can be a better rounded side without Bruno and look to create and attack differently.
We had a similar issue with Ruud, on paper he was our go to guy for goals but he also hindered our ability to fully utilise those around him. When Saha came in who was nowhere near as clinical in front of goal and he made us better as a team. Maybe there is a case for replacing Bruno with a player that offers less statistically but gives us better balance.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 3 minutes ago
Bruno's a funny one, statistically he offers so much and he is our most creative but you could argue that we are set up to go through him so he inevitably will be the most creative.
I think there is defintely a discussion about how we want to set up moving forward and whether we can be a better rounded side without Bruno and look to create and attack differently.
We had a similar issue with Ruud, on paper he was our go to guy for goals but he also hindered our ability to fully utilise those around him. When Saha came in who was nowhere near as clinical in front of goal and he made us better as a team. Maybe there is a case for replacing Bruno with a player that offers less statistically but gives us better balance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As a big fan of that Ronaldo-Rooney-Saha attack, I'd say it was less that Ruud was incapable of playing in a system that brought out the attacking threat of other players; more that we specifically had Ronaldo about to hit superhuman levels, and it made sense to build an attacking system in which he should be getting on the end of more chances. The personnel we assembled meant it made sense to have a more multi-dimensional attack with goals coming from players starting in wide positions. There's another world in which we play a different system with a different supporting cast with Ruud as centre forward, and it also works very productively.
I'd apply the same logic to the Fernandes discussion. If we have elite personnel in midfield / a high volume creator on one of the wings that makes a 4-3-3 without an old-skool number 10, then maybe it's time to retire him and evolve to a system that isn't as reliant on one player. But we all know we don't have talents equivalent to Rooney and Ronaldo waiting in the wings to render him superfluous.
I dunno, we played completely differently when we had Saha, our game became all about pace and we were lethal on the counter. Ruud had his strengths but he slowed us down. I'm also not sure Ferguson was fully aware just how good Ronaldo was going to be as a goal threat back in 2006 when he decided to move Ruud on. It wasn't really until the 07/08 season when Ronaldo changed from being primarily a creator to a goal scorer, and by that point we had moved on from Saha.
I'm sure Bruno would be better with better players around him, you could use the players he has around him at Portugal as an example of that. And I get we don't have talent of the same level we had with Rooney and Ronaldo, but I do still think we should at least think about how we can develop as a team without Bruno.
1982 my point would still be that we had the tools that made a system change that involved removing our main goal scorer a sacrifice worth making. I totally agree that relying on Bruno involves trade-offs and the club needs to be thinking carefully about the transition to a future without him (also considering his age). However, it seems to me that when you consider the upsides and downsides of cutting Bruno, it's a bigger risk than shuffling the pack in 2006 was.
In response to Rosso and RR, his ability is never in doubt, but I get the feeling there is a certain feeling of jadedness combined with over reliance that gives the worst part of him. The version of Bruno is the one who we knew when he joined and it was not accepted that we rely on him so much. Add to it the captaincy and I worry he has to carry all the pressure.
Anyways I believe if we can convince Bruno we do not have to rely on him to create everything and score most of the goals, we'll have a much better player.
Also, regardless of if the players around him are good enough or not, him trusting all of them serves him and the players around him better. No player can carry us on his own.
All making great points I’ll try to respond later if I get some time
Should have been a separate thread really!
Russian
Yeah totally. I'm not suggesting we drop Bruno now, just that we need to start thinking about how we want to develop and do we need Bruno to be integral to that or not?
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 43 minutes ago
Also, regardless of if the players around him are good enough or not, him trusting all of them serves him and the players around him better. No player can carry us on his own.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the basis for your implication that Bruno doesn't trust other players?
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 1 hour, 39 minutes ago
Bruno's a funny one, statistically he offers so much and he is our most creative but you could argue that we are set up to go through him so he inevitably will be the most creative.
I think there is defintely a discussion about how we want to set up moving forward and whether we can be a better rounded side without Bruno and look to create and attack differently.
We had a similar issue with Ruud, on paper he was our go to guy for goals but he also hindered our ability to fully utilise those around him. When Saha came in who was nowhere near as clinical in front of goal and he made us better as a team. Maybe there is a case for replacing Bruno with a player that offers less statistically but gives us better balance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always preferred the Rooney/Saha front two to Rooney/Ruud. The opposition defence couldn't really win. Sit deep and they gave Rooney the space to operate. Play a high line and Saha would hurt them with balls over the top/in the channels. They were a great paring.
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 17 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, personally I think Saha is probably the most "complete" CF I've seen at the club - he had absolutely everything. Might be a bit of a stretch, but I always think he'd have been considered among the best CFs of that time (Drogba, Torres, Eto'o) if he could've stayed fit.
I read something interesting once though - I think from Rio or Neville - that Saha himself didn't seem to realise how good he was, which held him back in a sense.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 40 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 43 minutes ago
Also, regardless of if the players around him are good enough or not, him trusting all of them serves him and the players around him better. No player can carry us on his own.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the basis for your implication that Bruno doesn't trust other players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trusting in the sense that he should reduce his tendency for him to try the final ball and just letting the ball flow. I believe his team mates and the manager may encourage it because "he always does it" but its affecting him now.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
-------------
Sure it was him that missed the one on one and pen against Celtic when we lost to them. He was dead to me from that night.
comment by Pun (U21588)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
-------------
Sure it was him that missed the one on one and pen against Celtic when we lost to them. He was dead to me from that night.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, apparently he considers punning the lowest form of humour.
comment by Pun (U21588)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
-------------
Sure it was him that missed the one on one and pen against Celtic when we lost to them. He was dead to me from that night.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was Saha he was a player I liked at Utd tona degree but after that night, I was there btw, he was a hero to be fair that game was still tough to watch for me as I'd been up and down to OT a fair few times that season but it was a HUGE win for Celtic in the grand scheme of things
It’s why he never got on with Park Ji-Pung.
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 40 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 43 minutes ago
Also, regardless of if the players around him are good enough or not, him trusting all of them serves him and the players around him better. No player can carry us on his own.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the basis for your implication that Bruno doesn't trust other players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trusting in the sense that he should reduce his tendency for him to try the final ball and just letting the ball flow. I believe his team mates and the manager may encourage it because "he always does it" but its affecting him now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a bit of a stretch. He doesn't trust his team mates? It's affecting him? For me, being someone who is always looking to make things happen is his personality as a footballer.
And let's not fall into the trap of taking something that's sometimes an issue and seeing it as the defining characteristic of the player. During the course of a match he will recycle the ball simply far more times than he attempts a difficult line breaking pass or low % shot. When he does try a through-ball or shot, not many of them are frivolous and obviously bad decisions: a good number of them create chances, a good number fractionally miss out on creating chances. Against the organisation and quality of defences in the PL, it's not that easy to create a goal scoring chance, and we don't have players who can consistently do so through world class dribbling or passing, and we're not great at outmanoeuvring teams by collective pass/move routines, so at some point someone has to try to make something happen using a movement or pass or piece of skill that will fail more often than it pays off.
As stated above, I acknowledge there are trade-offs in building around Bruno, but I think a lot of people magnify the downsides.
comment by Insufferable-Piffle (U4388)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Pun (U21588)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
-------------
Sure it was him that missed the one on one and pen against Celtic when we lost to them. He was dead to me from that night.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was Saha he was a player I liked at Utd tona degree but after that night, I was there btw, he was a hero to be fair that game was still tough to watch for me as I'd been up and down to OT a fair few times that season but it was a HUGE win for Celtic in the grand scheme of things
----------------------
Was hell going into school the next day. Pure torture
comment by Pun (U21588)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Insufferable-Piffle (U4388)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Pun (U21588)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
-------------
Sure it was him that missed the one on one and pen against Celtic when we lost to them. He was dead to me from that night.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was Saha he was a player I liked at Utd tona degree but after that night, I was there btw, he was a hero to be fair that game was still tough to watch for me as I'd been up and down to OT a fair few times that season but it was a HUGE win for Celtic in the grand scheme of things
----------------------
Was hell going into school the next day. Pure torture
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that’s just living in Scotland. What about the football?
Joshua bastirt it's still better than..........? Ok it's pretty pash but that was good night
And I managed one "reply" to Pun and it's stopped me doing it again
I hate being aulder and not understand technology whatsoever
Sign in if you want to comment
STRINGERS MAN UTD MATCH THREAD LIVE
Page 29 of 126
30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34
posted on 18/9/24
So strange people on here want our best player (by a country mile) benched... Very strange!
posted on 18/9/24
Bruno's a funny one, statistically he offers so much and he is our most creative but you could argue that we are set up to go through him so he inevitably will be the most creative.
I think there is defintely a discussion about how we want to set up moving forward and whether we can be a better rounded side without Bruno and look to create and attack differently.
We had a similar issue with Ruud, on paper he was our go to guy for goals but he also hindered our ability to fully utilise those around him. When Saha came in who was nowhere near as clinical in front of goal and he made us better as a team. Maybe there is a case for replacing Bruno with a player that offers less statistically but gives us better balance.
posted on 18/9/24
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 3 minutes ago
Bruno's a funny one, statistically he offers so much and he is our most creative but you could argue that we are set up to go through him so he inevitably will be the most creative.
I think there is defintely a discussion about how we want to set up moving forward and whether we can be a better rounded side without Bruno and look to create and attack differently.
We had a similar issue with Ruud, on paper he was our go to guy for goals but he also hindered our ability to fully utilise those around him. When Saha came in who was nowhere near as clinical in front of goal and he made us better as a team. Maybe there is a case for replacing Bruno with a player that offers less statistically but gives us better balance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As a big fan of that Ronaldo-Rooney-Saha attack, I'd say it was less that Ruud was incapable of playing in a system that brought out the attacking threat of other players; more that we specifically had Ronaldo about to hit superhuman levels, and it made sense to build an attacking system in which he should be getting on the end of more chances. The personnel we assembled meant it made sense to have a more multi-dimensional attack with goals coming from players starting in wide positions. There's another world in which we play a different system with a different supporting cast with Ruud as centre forward, and it also works very productively.
I'd apply the same logic to the Fernandes discussion. If we have elite personnel in midfield / a high volume creator on one of the wings that makes a 4-3-3 without an old-skool number 10, then maybe it's time to retire him and evolve to a system that isn't as reliant on one player. But we all know we don't have talents equivalent to Rooney and Ronaldo waiting in the wings to render him superfluous.
posted on 18/9/24
I dunno, we played completely differently when we had Saha, our game became all about pace and we were lethal on the counter. Ruud had his strengths but he slowed us down. I'm also not sure Ferguson was fully aware just how good Ronaldo was going to be as a goal threat back in 2006 when he decided to move Ruud on. It wasn't really until the 07/08 season when Ronaldo changed from being primarily a creator to a goal scorer, and by that point we had moved on from Saha.
I'm sure Bruno would be better with better players around him, you could use the players he has around him at Portugal as an example of that. And I get we don't have talent of the same level we had with Rooney and Ronaldo, but I do still think we should at least think about how we can develop as a team without Bruno.
posted on 18/9/24
1982 my point would still be that we had the tools that made a system change that involved removing our main goal scorer a sacrifice worth making. I totally agree that relying on Bruno involves trade-offs and the club needs to be thinking carefully about the transition to a future without him (also considering his age). However, it seems to me that when you consider the upsides and downsides of cutting Bruno, it's a bigger risk than shuffling the pack in 2006 was.
posted on 18/9/24
In response to Rosso and RR, his ability is never in doubt, but I get the feeling there is a certain feeling of jadedness combined with over reliance that gives the worst part of him. The version of Bruno is the one who we knew when he joined and it was not accepted that we rely on him so much. Add to it the captaincy and I worry he has to carry all the pressure.
Anyways I believe if we can convince Bruno we do not have to rely on him to create everything and score most of the goals, we'll have a much better player.
posted on 18/9/24
Also, regardless of if the players around him are good enough or not, him trusting all of them serves him and the players around him better. No player can carry us on his own.
posted on 18/9/24
All making great points I’ll try to respond later if I get some time
Should have been a separate thread really!
posted on 18/9/24
Russian
Yeah totally. I'm not suggesting we drop Bruno now, just that we need to start thinking about how we want to develop and do we need Bruno to be integral to that or not?
posted on 18/9/24
1982
posted on 18/9/24
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 43 minutes ago
Also, regardless of if the players around him are good enough or not, him trusting all of them serves him and the players around him better. No player can carry us on his own.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the basis for your implication that Bruno doesn't trust other players?
posted on 18/9/24
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 1 hour, 39 minutes ago
Bruno's a funny one, statistically he offers so much and he is our most creative but you could argue that we are set up to go through him so he inevitably will be the most creative.
I think there is defintely a discussion about how we want to set up moving forward and whether we can be a better rounded side without Bruno and look to create and attack differently.
We had a similar issue with Ruud, on paper he was our go to guy for goals but he also hindered our ability to fully utilise those around him. When Saha came in who was nowhere near as clinical in front of goal and he made us better as a team. Maybe there is a case for replacing Bruno with a player that offers less statistically but gives us better balance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always preferred the Rooney/Saha front two to Rooney/Ruud. The opposition defence couldn't really win. Sit deep and they gave Rooney the space to operate. Play a high line and Saha would hurt them with balls over the top/in the channels. They were a great paring.
posted on 18/9/24
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
posted on 18/9/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 17 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, personally I think Saha is probably the most "complete" CF I've seen at the club - he had absolutely everything. Might be a bit of a stretch, but I always think he'd have been considered among the best CFs of that time (Drogba, Torres, Eto'o) if he could've stayed fit.
I read something interesting once though - I think from Rio or Neville - that Saha himself didn't seem to realise how good he was, which held him back in a sense.
posted on 18/9/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 40 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 43 minutes ago
Also, regardless of if the players around him are good enough or not, him trusting all of them serves him and the players around him better. No player can carry us on his own.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the basis for your implication that Bruno doesn't trust other players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trusting in the sense that he should reduce his tendency for him to try the final ball and just letting the ball flow. I believe his team mates and the manager may encourage it because "he always does it" but its affecting him now.
posted on 18/9/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
-------------
Sure it was him that missed the one on one and pen against Celtic when we lost to them. He was dead to me from that night.
posted on 18/9/24
comment by Pun (U21588)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
-------------
Sure it was him that missed the one on one and pen against Celtic when we lost to them. He was dead to me from that night.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, apparently he considers punning the lowest form of humour.
posted on 18/9/24
It is
posted on 18/9/24
comment by Pun (U21588)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
-------------
Sure it was him that missed the one on one and pen against Celtic when we lost to them. He was dead to me from that night.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was Saha he was a player I liked at Utd tona degree but after that night, I was there btw, he was a hero to be fair that game was still tough to watch for me as I'd been up and down to OT a fair few times that season but it was a HUGE win for Celtic in the grand scheme of things
posted on 18/9/24
It’s why he never got on with Park Ji-Pung.
posted on 18/9/24
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 40 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 43 minutes ago
Also, regardless of if the players around him are good enough or not, him trusting all of them serves him and the players around him better. No player can carry us on his own.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the basis for your implication that Bruno doesn't trust other players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trusting in the sense that he should reduce his tendency for him to try the final ball and just letting the ball flow. I believe his team mates and the manager may encourage it because "he always does it" but its affecting him now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a bit of a stretch. He doesn't trust his team mates? It's affecting him? For me, being someone who is always looking to make things happen is his personality as a footballer.
And let's not fall into the trap of taking something that's sometimes an issue and seeing it as the defining characteristic of the player. During the course of a match he will recycle the ball simply far more times than he attempts a difficult line breaking pass or low % shot. When he does try a through-ball or shot, not many of them are frivolous and obviously bad decisions: a good number of them create chances, a good number fractionally miss out on creating chances. Against the organisation and quality of defences in the PL, it's not that easy to create a goal scoring chance, and we don't have players who can consistently do so through world class dribbling or passing, and we're not great at outmanoeuvring teams by collective pass/move routines, so at some point someone has to try to make something happen using a movement or pass or piece of skill that will fail more often than it pays off.
As stated above, I acknowledge there are trade-offs in building around Bruno, but I think a lot of people magnify the downsides.
posted on 18/9/24
comment by Insufferable-Piffle (U4388)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Pun (U21588)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
-------------
Sure it was him that missed the one on one and pen against Celtic when we lost to them. He was dead to me from that night.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was Saha he was a player I liked at Utd tona degree but after that night, I was there btw, he was a hero to be fair that game was still tough to watch for me as I'd been up and down to OT a fair few times that season but it was a HUGE win for Celtic in the grand scheme of things
----------------------
Was hell going into school the next day. Pure torture
posted on 18/9/24
comment by Pun (U21588)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Insufferable-Piffle (U4388)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Pun (U21588)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 30 minutes ago
If it hadn't been for that susceptibility to injuries, Saha would be recognised as a much better player in our collective memory.
-------------
Sure it was him that missed the one on one and pen against Celtic when we lost to them. He was dead to me from that night.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was Saha he was a player I liked at Utd tona degree but after that night, I was there btw, he was a hero to be fair that game was still tough to watch for me as I'd been up and down to OT a fair few times that season but it was a HUGE win for Celtic in the grand scheme of things
----------------------
Was hell going into school the next day. Pure torture
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that’s just living in Scotland. What about the football?
posted on 18/9/24
Joshua bastirt it's still better than..........? Ok it's pretty pash but that was good night
posted on 18/9/24
And I managed one "reply" to Pun and it's stopped me doing it again
I hate being aulder and not understand technology whatsoever
Page 29 of 126
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