The ref had a clear view and could be seen to wave his arms immediately after the incident dismissing it. There was nothing new in the video replay for him to say 'Oh, I missed that I made a mistake.' and change his decision.
Hopefully this incident gets flagged up on that Howard Webb show thing so all the audio can be heard between the David Coote and the nobhead Michael Oliver in the immediate aftermath of the incident and then again whilst discussing the footage.
This season the Premier League is introducing a term, “Referee's Call”, when communicating about VAR. Can you explain?
Tony Scholes: One of the difficulties around VAR for the last couple of years is the lack of clarity as to when the VAR should or should not intervene.
“Referee’s Call” really is just an introduction of a terminology to make it clear that the initial decision by the on-pitch official is critical. It’s similar to what exists in other sports like cricket and “Umpire’s Call”. The referee’s call should stand unless the VAR, based on readily available evidence, can see without doubt the on-pitch official has made a clear mistake. In the absence of that clear evidence, the referee’s call will stand.
Howard Webb: “Referee’s Call” is important because it helps manage people's expectations. We have situations that split opinion – and VAR can’t always provide definitive answers all the time, because the real world is not always correct or incorrect. So “Referee’s Call” clarifies the process to fans, managers and players – even if they disagree with the decision.
We had the same with Saliba red, there was enough justification for a yellow and going by the above no reason fir VAR to step in. They just make the rules up as they go along, then get Gallagher, Dean and Webb to twist it to justify the call.
Yeah, it would have been a strange and harsh penalty to give in real time, but you can forgive a referee's subjective interpretation being off. Reviewing the footage at leisure and concluding that the referee had made a mistake 'without doubt' seems to me just totally and objectively wrong.
Obviously we put ourselves in the position where we were vulnerable to losing due to a piece of luck after very bad finishing in the first half and losing control of the game in the second. But it would have felt less unjust if the winner had come from a well constructed move or a deflected shot rather than that.
Power-tripping?
------------
Yes.
Michael Oliver is this generation's Mike Dean unfortunately. Strikes me as a complete egomaniac who loves the headlines. Don't know what he is like in other games, but he has given some absolutely bonkers decisions against us the last couple of years - the Dalot red at Anfield was given purely because his ego was a little bit hurt.
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 3 minutes ago
Power-tripping?
------------
Yes.
Michael Oliver is this generation's Mike Dean unfortunately. Strikes me as a complete egomaniac who loves the headlines. Don't know what he is like in other games, but he has given some absolutely bonkers decisions against us the last couple of years - the Dalot red at Anfield was given purely because his ego was a little bit hurt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
he was also the VAR in the Manchester derby last season that recommended that Rodri was brushed by Hojlund and that was sufficient contact to award the pen even though neither player was getting to the ball so it wouldn't affect the outcome anyway.
The same ref that allowed Joe Hart to stick his forehead into his face in a not entirely unaggressive and unintimidating fashion in a previous Manchester derby and felt that was perfectly acceptable.
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 3 minutes ago
Power-tripping?
------------
Yes.
Michael Oliver is this generation's Mike Dean unfortunately. Strikes me as a complete egomaniac who loves the headlines. Don't know what he is like in other games, but he has given some absolutely bonkers decisions against us the last couple of years - the Dalot red at Anfield was given purely because his ego was a little bit hurt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
he was also the VAR in the Manchester derby last season that recommended that Rodri was brushed by Hojlund and that was sufficient contact to award the pen even though neither player was getting to the ball so it wouldn't affect the outcome anyway.
The same ref that allowed Joe Hart to stick his forehead into his face in a not entirely unaggressive and unintimidating fashion in a previous Manchester derby and felt that was perfectly acceptable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep.
A very minor side point, but i don't think ETH went far enough yesterday in criticising Oliver himself, which he had every right to do after that. Take the fine or whatever, but I really do think creating some noise about his record in United games would play on his mind a little in future.
I said this yesterday and have said it about three or four weeks ago on another VAR interference that resulted in a goal being disallowed ( not one of our games but can not recall which it was).
If it is taking VAR over five minutes to try and find any reason for overturning a decision then it is not a clear and obvious error. How the hell can it be.
It should be obvious on the first or second replay.
Michael Oliver did not follow guidance at all yesterday. Can you honestly tell me that if that had been the other way round we would have been awarded that penalty. I am quite content to say he was cheating.
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 52 seconds ago
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 3 minutes ago
Power-tripping?
------------
Yes.
Michael Oliver is this generation's Mike Dean unfortunately. Strikes me as a complete egomaniac who loves the headlines. Don't know what he is like in other games, but he has given some absolutely bonkers decisions against us the last couple of years - the Dalot red at Anfield was given purely because his ego was a little bit hurt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
he was also the VAR in the Manchester derby last season that recommended that Rodri was brushed by Hojlund and that was sufficient contact to award the pen even though neither player was getting to the ball so it wouldn't affect the outcome anyway.
The same ref that allowed Joe Hart to stick his forehead into his face in a not entirely unaggressive and unintimidating fashion in a previous Manchester derby and felt that was perfectly acceptable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep.
A very minor side point, but i don't think ETH went far enough yesterday in criticising Oliver himself, which he had every right to do after that. Take the fine or whatever, but I really do think creating some noise about his record in United games would play on his mind a little in future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The guy is a Newcastle fan.
It's like 'ffs, 1996 is a long time ago to still hold a grudge. United won the title and not Newcastle. Get over it.'
Bloodred
I agree. I said yesterday that SAF would have given Oliver both barrels and to hell with the fine.
Yes Michael Oliver should be forced to explain why he clearly has gone against his own profession's directive to forensically pick apart and go against the on field refereeing correct decision....It's highly suspicious because nobody agrees with Oliver so questions need to be asked regarding his judgement, impartiality and knowledge of the rules which he has shown on all counts to fall outrageously short on.
He definitely should be disciplined over this and it shouldn't be swept under the carpet as he has previous and fans suspect he's been bribed or coked up to impair his judgement to come to the decision he did yesterday and you can't blame fans thinking this because there was no excuse to get that penalty call so wrong.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 8 minutes ago
I said this yesterday and have said it about three or four weeks ago on another VAR interference that resulted in a goal being disallowed ( not one of our games but can not recall which it was).
If it is taking VAR over five minutes to try and find any reason for overturning a decision then it is not a clear and obvious error. How the hell can it be.
It should be obvious on the first or second replay.
Michael Oliver did not follow guidance at all yesterday. Can you honestly tell me that if that had been the other way round we would have been awarded that penalty. I am quite content to say he was cheating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“If it is taking VAR over five minutes to try and find any reason for overturning a decision then it is not a clear and obvious error.”
Exactly this.
It is time clubs questioned the standards of officiating. Wolves tried to get VAR removed but no support, they should have gone after the PGMOL instead.
It's probably the worst VAR call I've seen, because there was literally no foul.
For VAR to deem it worthy of looking again was plainly ridiculous both in terms of the guidelines as well as the basic eye test. But for the on-field referee to look at that clip multiple times over and then decide to go with VAR should also not be forgotten here.
What's the point in an on-field review if the outcome is a forgone conclusion? Why couldn't the ref look at the footage and go, "Huh? no chance I'm changing my decision here, I got it right first time!".
I think VAR is a shambles to be honest. VAR for offside is fine and obviously goal-line technology is great. At most I think each team should have one contestation over a decision per game and the captains get to choose. Literally nobody likes VAR. Even legitimate goals are tempered by the review.
Oliver as ref team winrates
Man Utd 39.13% 46 games
Liverpool 47.62% 63 games
Chelsea 49.06% 53 games
Arsenal 50.00% 60 games
Spurs 50.94% 50 games
Lesta 53.49% 43 games
Man Cheaty 73.68% in 57 games
They aren't following their own guidelines. The overturning of our penalty against Newcastle yesterday proved that. Was it a bit soft? Yes. But with the ref having given it, could VAR say that it was an obvious error? Not a chance.
All we are asking for is consistency. What we're getting from this collection of loose stools is sod all consistency.
I've seen it a few times this morning again and it seems to me De Ligt makes contact with the ball first so you could argue it's more of a foul on him by Ings if anything. Shocking decision it really was.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 5 minutes ago
It is time clubs questioned the standards of officiating. Wolves tried to get VAR removed but no support, they should have gone after the PGMOL instead.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The best opportunity for that was after our debacle against Spurs last season, but most other professionals at the time simply seemed of the opinion that mistakes happen.
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 11 minutes ago
Oliver as ref team winrates
Man Utd 39.13% 46 games
Liverpool 47.62% 63 games
Chelsea 49.06% 53 games
Arsenal 50.00% 60 games
Spurs 50.94% 50 games
Lesta 53.49% 43 games
Man Cheaty 73.68% in 57 games
---------------------------------------------------------
do me a favour
those teams win rates are higher because they are better at playing football.
United have had their fair share of being awarded soft penalties, take the rough with the smooth
It’s because that cuuuuuunt Michael Oliver has an ego the size of Ronaldo, with the refereeing talent equivalent of Dan James.
He shouldn’t be allowed to officiate any of our games given all the disgraceful decisions he’s given against us.
PGMOL have just cost Ten Hag his job
Reckon United paid Oliver to get ten Hag the sack.
Their corruption knows no end
In his article for the Daily Telegraph, Former EPL referee, Keith Hackett expressed shock at what he described as one of the worst decisions he’d seen, questioning VAR's role with Michael Oliver as the VAR official and David Coote as the on field ref. Hackett suggested that Coote may have relied too heavily on Oliver’s judgment instead of making an independent call.
In my opinion, both officials seem biased against Utd, in particular that Uber caant Oliver, which just adds to my dislike for them. Both possess a highly punchable face which further fuels my rage.
comment by The Spanish Italians - Its all coming home again (U21595)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 11 minutes ago
Oliver as ref team winrates
Man Utd 39.13% 46 games
Liverpool 47.62% 63 games
Chelsea 49.06% 53 games
Arsenal 50.00% 60 games
Spurs 50.94% 50 games
Lesta 53.49% 43 games
Man Cheaty 73.68% in 57 games
---------------------------------------------------------
do me a favour
those teams win rates are higher because they are better at playing football.
United have had their fair share of being awarded soft penalties, take the rough with the smooth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
come off it, even as the best team in the prem thats a crazy high win % over 50 odd games... and for so many big teams to have just around 50% or less with him too... The disparity is absurd.
Sign in if you want to comment
‘Clear and obvious error’
Page 1 of 3
posted on 28/10/24
The ref had a clear view and could be seen to wave his arms immediately after the incident dismissing it. There was nothing new in the video replay for him to say 'Oh, I missed that I made a mistake.' and change his decision.
Hopefully this incident gets flagged up on that Howard Webb show thing so all the audio can be heard between the David Coote and the nobhead Michael Oliver in the immediate aftermath of the incident and then again whilst discussing the footage.
posted on 28/10/24
This season the Premier League is introducing a term, “Referee's Call”, when communicating about VAR. Can you explain?
Tony Scholes: One of the difficulties around VAR for the last couple of years is the lack of clarity as to when the VAR should or should not intervene.
“Referee’s Call” really is just an introduction of a terminology to make it clear that the initial decision by the on-pitch official is critical. It’s similar to what exists in other sports like cricket and “Umpire’s Call”. The referee’s call should stand unless the VAR, based on readily available evidence, can see without doubt the on-pitch official has made a clear mistake. In the absence of that clear evidence, the referee’s call will stand.
Howard Webb: “Referee’s Call” is important because it helps manage people's expectations. We have situations that split opinion – and VAR can’t always provide definitive answers all the time, because the real world is not always correct or incorrect. So “Referee’s Call” clarifies the process to fans, managers and players – even if they disagree with the decision.
We had the same with Saliba red, there was enough justification for a yellow and going by the above no reason fir VAR to step in. They just make the rules up as they go along, then get Gallagher, Dean and Webb to twist it to justify the call.
posted on 28/10/24
Yeah, it would have been a strange and harsh penalty to give in real time, but you can forgive a referee's subjective interpretation being off. Reviewing the footage at leisure and concluding that the referee had made a mistake 'without doubt' seems to me just totally and objectively wrong.
Obviously we put ourselves in the position where we were vulnerable to losing due to a piece of luck after very bad finishing in the first half and losing control of the game in the second. But it would have felt less unjust if the winner had come from a well constructed move or a deflected shot rather than that.
posted on 28/10/24
Power-tripping?
------------
Yes.
Michael Oliver is this generation's Mike Dean unfortunately. Strikes me as a complete egomaniac who loves the headlines. Don't know what he is like in other games, but he has given some absolutely bonkers decisions against us the last couple of years - the Dalot red at Anfield was given purely because his ego was a little bit hurt.
posted on 28/10/24
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 3 minutes ago
Power-tripping?
------------
Yes.
Michael Oliver is this generation's Mike Dean unfortunately. Strikes me as a complete egomaniac who loves the headlines. Don't know what he is like in other games, but he has given some absolutely bonkers decisions against us the last couple of years - the Dalot red at Anfield was given purely because his ego was a little bit hurt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
he was also the VAR in the Manchester derby last season that recommended that Rodri was brushed by Hojlund and that was sufficient contact to award the pen even though neither player was getting to the ball so it wouldn't affect the outcome anyway.
The same ref that allowed Joe Hart to stick his forehead into his face in a not entirely unaggressive and unintimidating fashion in a previous Manchester derby and felt that was perfectly acceptable.
posted on 28/10/24
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 3 minutes ago
Power-tripping?
------------
Yes.
Michael Oliver is this generation's Mike Dean unfortunately. Strikes me as a complete egomaniac who loves the headlines. Don't know what he is like in other games, but he has given some absolutely bonkers decisions against us the last couple of years - the Dalot red at Anfield was given purely because his ego was a little bit hurt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
he was also the VAR in the Manchester derby last season that recommended that Rodri was brushed by Hojlund and that was sufficient contact to award the pen even though neither player was getting to the ball so it wouldn't affect the outcome anyway.
The same ref that allowed Joe Hart to stick his forehead into his face in a not entirely unaggressive and unintimidating fashion in a previous Manchester derby and felt that was perfectly acceptable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep.
A very minor side point, but i don't think ETH went far enough yesterday in criticising Oliver himself, which he had every right to do after that. Take the fine or whatever, but I really do think creating some noise about his record in United games would play on his mind a little in future.
posted on 28/10/24
I said this yesterday and have said it about three or four weeks ago on another VAR interference that resulted in a goal being disallowed ( not one of our games but can not recall which it was).
If it is taking VAR over five minutes to try and find any reason for overturning a decision then it is not a clear and obvious error. How the hell can it be.
It should be obvious on the first or second replay.
Michael Oliver did not follow guidance at all yesterday. Can you honestly tell me that if that had been the other way round we would have been awarded that penalty. I am quite content to say he was cheating.
posted on 28/10/24
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 52 seconds ago
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 3 minutes ago
Power-tripping?
------------
Yes.
Michael Oliver is this generation's Mike Dean unfortunately. Strikes me as a complete egomaniac who loves the headlines. Don't know what he is like in other games, but he has given some absolutely bonkers decisions against us the last couple of years - the Dalot red at Anfield was given purely because his ego was a little bit hurt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
he was also the VAR in the Manchester derby last season that recommended that Rodri was brushed by Hojlund and that was sufficient contact to award the pen even though neither player was getting to the ball so it wouldn't affect the outcome anyway.
The same ref that allowed Joe Hart to stick his forehead into his face in a not entirely unaggressive and unintimidating fashion in a previous Manchester derby and felt that was perfectly acceptable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep.
A very minor side point, but i don't think ETH went far enough yesterday in criticising Oliver himself, which he had every right to do after that. Take the fine or whatever, but I really do think creating some noise about his record in United games would play on his mind a little in future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The guy is a Newcastle fan.
It's like 'ffs, 1996 is a long time ago to still hold a grudge. United won the title and not Newcastle. Get over it.'
posted on 28/10/24
Bloodred
I agree. I said yesterday that SAF would have given Oliver both barrels and to hell with the fine.
posted on 28/10/24
Yes Michael Oliver should be forced to explain why he clearly has gone against his own profession's directive to forensically pick apart and go against the on field refereeing correct decision....It's highly suspicious because nobody agrees with Oliver so questions need to be asked regarding his judgement, impartiality and knowledge of the rules which he has shown on all counts to fall outrageously short on.
He definitely should be disciplined over this and it shouldn't be swept under the carpet as he has previous and fans suspect he's been bribed or coked up to impair his judgement to come to the decision he did yesterday and you can't blame fans thinking this because there was no excuse to get that penalty call so wrong.
posted on 28/10/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 8 minutes ago
I said this yesterday and have said it about three or four weeks ago on another VAR interference that resulted in a goal being disallowed ( not one of our games but can not recall which it was).
If it is taking VAR over five minutes to try and find any reason for overturning a decision then it is not a clear and obvious error. How the hell can it be.
It should be obvious on the first or second replay.
Michael Oliver did not follow guidance at all yesterday. Can you honestly tell me that if that had been the other way round we would have been awarded that penalty. I am quite content to say he was cheating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
“If it is taking VAR over five minutes to try and find any reason for overturning a decision then it is not a clear and obvious error.”
Exactly this.
posted on 28/10/24
It is time clubs questioned the standards of officiating. Wolves tried to get VAR removed but no support, they should have gone after the PGMOL instead.
posted on 28/10/24
It's probably the worst VAR call I've seen, because there was literally no foul.
For VAR to deem it worthy of looking again was plainly ridiculous both in terms of the guidelines as well as the basic eye test. But for the on-field referee to look at that clip multiple times over and then decide to go with VAR should also not be forgotten here.
What's the point in an on-field review if the outcome is a forgone conclusion? Why couldn't the ref look at the footage and go, "Huh? no chance I'm changing my decision here, I got it right first time!".
I think VAR is a shambles to be honest. VAR for offside is fine and obviously goal-line technology is great. At most I think each team should have one contestation over a decision per game and the captains get to choose. Literally nobody likes VAR. Even legitimate goals are tempered by the review.
posted on 28/10/24
Oliver as ref team winrates
Man Utd 39.13% 46 games
Liverpool 47.62% 63 games
Chelsea 49.06% 53 games
Arsenal 50.00% 60 games
Spurs 50.94% 50 games
Lesta 53.49% 43 games
Man Cheaty 73.68% in 57 games
posted on 28/10/24
They aren't following their own guidelines. The overturning of our penalty against Newcastle yesterday proved that. Was it a bit soft? Yes. But with the ref having given it, could VAR say that it was an obvious error? Not a chance.
All we are asking for is consistency. What we're getting from this collection of loose stools is sod all consistency.
posted on 28/10/24
I've seen it a few times this morning again and it seems to me De Ligt makes contact with the ball first so you could argue it's more of a foul on him by Ings if anything. Shocking decision it really was.
posted on 28/10/24
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 5 minutes ago
It is time clubs questioned the standards of officiating. Wolves tried to get VAR removed but no support, they should have gone after the PGMOL instead.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The best opportunity for that was after our debacle against Spurs last season, but most other professionals at the time simply seemed of the opinion that mistakes happen.
posted on 28/10/24
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 11 minutes ago
Oliver as ref team winrates
Man Utd 39.13% 46 games
Liverpool 47.62% 63 games
Chelsea 49.06% 53 games
Arsenal 50.00% 60 games
Spurs 50.94% 50 games
Lesta 53.49% 43 games
Man Cheaty 73.68% in 57 games
---------------------------------------------------------
do me a favour
those teams win rates are higher because they are better at playing football.
United have had their fair share of being awarded soft penalties, take the rough with the smooth
posted on 28/10/24
It’s because that cuuuuuunt Michael Oliver has an ego the size of Ronaldo, with the refereeing talent equivalent of Dan James.
posted on 28/10/24
He shouldn’t be allowed to officiate any of our games given all the disgraceful decisions he’s given against us.
posted on 28/10/24
PGMOL have just cost Ten Hag his job
posted on 28/10/24
Reckon United paid Oliver to get ten Hag the sack.
posted on 28/10/24
Their corruption knows no end
posted on 28/10/24
In his article for the Daily Telegraph, Former EPL referee, Keith Hackett expressed shock at what he described as one of the worst decisions he’d seen, questioning VAR's role with Michael Oliver as the VAR official and David Coote as the on field ref. Hackett suggested that Coote may have relied too heavily on Oliver’s judgment instead of making an independent call.
In my opinion, both officials seem biased against Utd, in particular that Uber caant Oliver, which just adds to my dislike for them. Both possess a highly punchable face which further fuels my rage.
posted on 28/10/24
comment by The Spanish Italians - Its all coming home again (U21595)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 11 minutes ago
Oliver as ref team winrates
Man Utd 39.13% 46 games
Liverpool 47.62% 63 games
Chelsea 49.06% 53 games
Arsenal 50.00% 60 games
Spurs 50.94% 50 games
Lesta 53.49% 43 games
Man Cheaty 73.68% in 57 games
---------------------------------------------------------
do me a favour
those teams win rates are higher because they are better at playing football.
United have had their fair share of being awarded soft penalties, take the rough with the smooth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
come off it, even as the best team in the prem thats a crazy high win % over 50 odd games... and for so many big teams to have just around 50% or less with him too... The disparity is absurd.
Page 1 of 3