3-4-2-1 então…

VAMOS LÁ CARALHO!

One of the big questions facing ETH from the start was whether he should prioritise transforming our play at the expense of short-term competitiveness or take a more pragmatic route at the expense of taking longer to turn us into a more sophisticated tactical team. In the autumn of 2022 I didn't feel like there was a clearly right answer to that question. But looking back, it strikes me that one of his big mistakes was the general lack of clarity around his approach. I don't know if his thinking was muddled (perhaps encouraged by mutually contradictory objectives set by the old sporting hierarchy). But by year 2 he certainly struggled to articulate his vision or credibly answer questions about it. It feels really encouraging that Amorim is able to speak so confidently and unambiguously about what he wants to do, and how the fits into the broader context of the timeframe of the project. We can be pretty sure that the sporting leadership is on the same page too.

I don't think ETH played his own style or stuck with the one we had. He created something in the middle and it was a disaster. The players never looked like they knew what they were doing or where their teammates were.

Structurally and positionally I saw teams 3/4 leagues below us with better structure. They just had much less quality for obvious reasons.

Ruben needs to go with his style and stick with it. The players who can do it get to stay and the ones who can't need to be made aware they are surplus to requirements and won't be picked long term.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 26 minutes ago
One of the big questions facing ETH from the start was whether he should prioritise transforming our play at the expense of short-term competitiveness or take a more pragmatic route at the expense of taking longer to turn us into a more sophisticated tactical team. In the autumn of 2022 I didn't feel like there was a clearly right answer to that question. But looking back, it strikes me that one of his big mistakes was the general lack of clarity around his approach. I don't know if his thinking was muddled (perhaps encouraged by mutually contradictory objectives set by the old sporting hierarchy). But by year 2 he certainly struggled to articulate his vision or credibly answer questions about it. It feels really encouraging that Amorim is able to speak so confidently and unambiguously about what he wants to do, and how the fits into the broader context of the timeframe of the project. We can be pretty sure that the sporting leadership is on the same page too.
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My reading is this: I think ETH decided fairly early on, having realised that the players weren’t immediately up to it, that he’d have to try to chart some kind of course which would progressively work towards where he wanted his United to be. (Which would be something ballpark his Ajax.)

Then he clearly decided that the players weren’t going to get there (or at least that plan wasn’t working), binned that idea off, and decided to re-reinvent United as the “best transition team in the world”.

I don’t know if that was his biggest mistake, that second change of tack, because that plan ultimately went even worse. Maybe it suited some of the players better; but not all of them, and it never felt like ETH-ball. (I don’t know if Erik really knows *how* to coach an elite out-and-out transition team.)

Ruben’s approach, as far as I can see it, seems the right one to me:

Here’s the system I know. It has worked superbly for me at several clubs, season after season. So that’s what we’re going to do. The players will be given time to adapt and find a role (or roles) for themselves, and if they can’t, then we’ll get new players. But I’m going to stick to what I know, because I know and trust that that’s what I can succeed with.

Watched all 3 interviews now....the one he did on the pitch, the one with Neville and the press conference.

You can't help but like what you hear. Seems like we got a good one for sure and I'm actually looking forward to our games again. Let's hope we get off to a good start this weekend which will definitely help him settle in quickly.

Of course other teams can play the same system, so then it's down to the players.
In other words, systems don't win anything, but they do help the players have more confidence knowing what they have to do.

That sounds about right on ETH, Rosso. I wonder also if in addition to the above, he struggled to teach players to execute certain ideas. My working theory is that at Ajax he had a core of players who grew up with Dutch models, and ETH was able to come up with interesting innovative twists on build up play etc on the foundation of those capabilities. Whereas at United he had a side with a more disparate group of players and that had never really been coached to play through a press / execute an effective pressing trap. And moreover was coming up against much better teams in and out of possession. Maybe he's someone who knows how to teach a postgraduate student but really struggled in the kindergarten.

comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 4 seconds ago
Watched all 3 interviews now....the one he did on the pitch, the one with Neville and the press conference.

You can't help but like what you hear. Seems like we got a good one for sure and I'm actually looking forward to our games again. Let's hope we get off to a good start this weekend which will definitely help him settle in quickly.
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I’m somewhat optimistic, but, yeah, it’s United, so we’ll somehow fack all this up

My real worry, and for me the nightmare scenario, is that we start off as well as could be expected with some progress being shown; do OK next season as we start clearing out the players who don’t fit the system and bring some specialists in, and have already updated the Academy programmes to start to develop players for Amorim-ball; then at the start of the third season, say, we don’t see progression to the next level, or there’s a poor run of form, the dopey facking fans and the media get right on his back, and we’re back to square one again.

But… this time with a squad of six/seven CBs, four specialist wingbacks, four number tens, and an Academy which has been developing players to play Amorim-ball.

Then we bring in a McKenna or a Carrick or a Potter with completely different ideas, we rip everything up again and have to completely gut the squad and reset the Academy.

This time, we’re going to HAVE to give the head coach a proper amount of time. And I mean years, even if that means seasons out of Europe, and periods through which we seem to be going backwards. We just can’t keep on going as we’ve been going, particularly not when a proper commitment to Amorimball is going to mean a serious reset and quite unique investment in the sporting strategy.

One of the best first press conferences we’ve had from a manager, I’m feeling optimistic.

Amorim on improving #MUFC: "If you want to speak about the way we play, we lose the ball too often, we have to keep the ball, we have to be better on running back, that is clear for everyone, we have to be clear in the details. In the small things I think I can help a lot."

Bruno is facked

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
That sounds about right on ETH, Rosso. I wonder also if in addition to the above, he struggled to teach players to execute certain ideas. My working theory is that at Ajax he had a core of players who grew up with Dutch models, and ETH was able to come up with interesting innovative twists on build up play etc on the foundation of those capabilities. Whereas at United he had a side with a more disparate group of players and that had never really been coached to play through a press / execute an effective pressing trap. And moreover was coming up against much better teams in and out of possession. Maybe he's someone who knows how to teach a postgraduate student but really struggled in the kindergarten.
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Yeah, I think that makes an awful lot of sense.

Spot on with: disparate group of players (look at the kind of football that’s going to suit Rashford or Garnacho versus Eriksen or Mainoo); no idea how to play out; no idea how to press.

I’m not sure that ETH’s reign helped us out with the first of those issues much; but it has to something of an extent with the second and third, IMO.

Another snippet I should have posted in the OP was the (maybe quite telling?) reference Amorim made to the players’ physical conditions very early on in the PC. He also singled out running back, which we saw (or were shown, I should say) him picking up players for in the training session video released early this week.

Again, I think we made *some* progress on conditioning under ETH, but we still need to be much sharper, more explosive, stronger, more durable and generally fitter.

comment by Maximus Decimus Meridius (U11781)
posted 4 minutes ago
Amorim on improving #MUFC: "If you want to speak about the way we play, we lose the ball too often, we have to keep the ball, we have to be better on running back, that is clear for everyone, we have to be clear in the details. In the small things I think I can help a lot."

Bruno is facked
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I think he’s gonna have Bruno playing higher up (where Pote plays for Sporting), so when he loses the ball, it’ll be trying to make things happen around the box, rather than because he’s tried a first touch ping over the top from inside his own half.

If you look at Bruno, Rashford and Hojlund’s turnover and pass completion rates, they’re very similar to Pote, Trincão and Gyokeres’.

comment by Maximus Decimus Meridius (U11781)
posted 8 minutes ago
Amorim on improving #MUFC: "If you want to speak about the way we play, we lose the ball too often, we have to keep the ball, we have to be better on running back, that is clear for everyone, we have to be clear in the details. In the small things I think I can help a lot."

Bruno is facked
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Casemiro is another culprit that gives the ball away constantly as well, god knows how Ruben is gonna sort that out

Amorim isn’t going to mind us giving the ball away trying things in the final third. He won’t get remotely upset if our forwards lose it trying to take players on or in tight combination play. Sporting do it all game.

What he won’t put up with is giving the ball away playing out, or in midfield once we’ve beaten the press or first line of defence.

comment by Maximus Decimus Meridius (U11781)
posted 26 seconds ago
Casemiro is another culprit that gives the ball away constantly as well, god knows how Ruben is gonna sort that out
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RR posted a very good article a few days ago which explained (amongst other things) the different tactical devices Sporting use to play out. It’s more about the placement of players, finding space and combination play than it is relying on specific players’ attributes.

Obviously if some utter donk is going to shank a straightforward ten yard pass out of play, there’s nothing you can do about that beyond asking yourself if they should be playing PL football. But hopefully some of his first and second phase patterns can help us.

comment by RRRU-ben a-moo-REENG (U17054)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 4 seconds ago
Watched all 3 interviews now....the one he did on the pitch, the one with Neville and the press conference.

You can't help but like what you hear. Seems like we got a good one for sure and I'm actually looking forward to our games again. Let's hope we get off to a good start this weekend which will definitely help him settle in quickly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m somewhat optimistic, but, yeah, it’s United, so we’ll somehow fack all this up

My real worry, and for me the nightmare scenario, is that we start off as well as could be expected with some progress being shown; do OK next season as we start clearing out the players who don’t fit the system and bring some specialists in, and have already updated the Academy programmes to start to develop players for Amorim-ball; then at the start of the third season, say, we don’t see progression to the next level, or there’s a poor run of form, the dopey facking fans and the media get right on his back, and we’re back to square one again.

But… this time with a squad of six/seven CBs, four specialist wingbacks, four number tens, and an Academy which has been developing players to play Amorim-ball.

Then we bring in a McKenna or a Carrick or a Potter with completely different ideas, we rip everything up again and have to completely gut the squad and reset the Academy.

This time, we’re going to HAVE to give the head coach a proper amount of time. And I mean years, even if that means seasons out of Europe, and periods through which we seem to be going backwards. We just can’t keep on going as we’ve been going, particularly not when a proper commitment to Amorimball is going to mean a serious reset and quite unique investment in the sporting strategy.
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I get what you mean but you can't live your life like that. I was massively optimistic under ETH to start with.

We don't need expectations in this first 6 months. Just get the team playing in a proper structure and style and who work hard and we will take it from there.

If we pick up a domestic cup or Europa League trophy then great but that's not the main thing for me. We need to implement a style and system.

Take a look at this, Arab. It’s Bruno vs Pote since the start of last season.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=1&dom_lg=1&player_id1=507c7bdf&p1yrfrom=2023-2024&p1yrto=2024-2025&player_id2=c275947b&p2yrfrom=2023-2024&p2yrto=2024-2025

Remarkably similar profiles if you toggle per 90 mins stats, with a few exceptions; notably the amount of deeper defending Pote has to do (fewer tackles and much less work in the defensive third in general), the number of take-ons (more for Pote), and the number of progressive passes (more for Bruno).

If Amorim drops Bruno straight into the Pote role, as I’m already sure he will, he’ll be able to stay further up the pitch, won’t have as much legwork to do (beyond initial pressing and counterpressing), won’t have to get so involved in the transition, and won’t be given nearly as many opportunities to give the ball away in midfield trying crazy stuff. With any luck, the reduced responsibility/reliance will help both player and side.

comment by RRRU-ben a-moo-REENG (U17054)
posted 20 minutes ago
Take a look at this, Arab. It’s Bruno vs Pote since the start of last season.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=1&dom_lg=1&player_id1=507c7bdf&p1yrfrom=2023-2024&p1yrto=2024-2025&player_id2=c275947b&p2yrfrom=2023-2024&p2yrto=2024-2025

Remarkably similar profiles if you toggle per 90 mins stats, with a few exceptions; notably the amount of deeper defending Pote has to do (fewer tackles and much less work in the defensive third in general), the number of take-ons (more for Pote), and the number of progressive passes (more for Bruno).

If Amorim drops Bruno straight into the Pote role, as I’m already sure he will, he’ll be able to stay further up the pitch, won’t have as much legwork to do (beyond initial pressing and counterpressing), won’t have to get so involved in the transition, and won’t be given nearly as many opportunities to give the ball away in midfield trying crazy stuff. With any luck, the reduced responsibility/reliance will help both player and side.
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It’s the hope that kills you.

comment by Ruben The King Amorim Tim Tagi Dim (U10026)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by RRRU-ben a-moo-REENG (U17054)
posted 20 minutes ago
Take a look at this, Arab. It’s Bruno vs Pote since the start of last season.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=1&dom_lg=1&player_id1=507c7bdf&p1yrfrom=2023-2024&p1yrto=2024-2025&player_id2=c275947b&p2yrfrom=2023-2024&p2yrto=2024-2025

Remarkably similar profiles if you toggle per 90 mins stats, with a few exceptions; notably the amount of deeper defending Pote has to do (fewer tackles and much less work in the defensive third in general), the number of take-ons (more for Pote), and the number of progressive passes (more for Bruno).

If Amorim drops Bruno straight into the Pote role, as I’m already sure he will, he’ll be able to stay further up the pitch, won’t have as much legwork to do (beyond initial pressing and counterpressing), won’t have to get so involved in the transition, and won’t be given nearly as many opportunities to give the ball away in midfield trying crazy stuff. With any luck, the reduced responsibility/reliance will help both player and side.
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It’s the hope that kills you.
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Always with these cants

Rúben Amorim when asked whether he’s going to use fullbacks or wingers as wingbacks:

“We should START with fullbacks, because to teach a winger to defend is harder.”

https://x.com/amorimera_/status/1860012726724231295?s=46&t=bPTrpdgNggCdz9igvhmVyw

This is good to hear, we’re not ready for a back three formation yet.

Plus fbref doesn’t record the all important ‘player being a facking retaaard’ percentage.

comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
Watched all 3 interviews now....the one he did on the pitch, the one with Neville and the press conference.

You can't help but like what you hear. Seems like we got a good one for sure and I'm actually looking forward to our games again. Let's hope we get off to a good start this weekend which will definitely help him settle in quickly.
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We've had our far share of falling outs

I agree with this. My ONLY reservations are this is how we were with ETH.

I hope Gaffer gets off to a good start. That's all.

comment by Maximus Decimus Meridius (U11781)
posted 13 minutes ago
Rúben Amorim when asked whether he’s going to use fullbacks or wingers as wingbacks:

“We should START with fullbacks, because to teach a winger to defend is harder.”

https://x.com/amorimera_/status/1860012726724231295?s=46&t=bPTrpdgNggCdz9igvhmVyw

This is good to hear, we’re not ready for a back three formation yet.
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I reckon it’s gonna be Dalot and Mazraoui wide of the three CBs on Sun.

comment by Ruben The King Amorim Tim Tagi Dim (U10026)
posted 15 minutes ago
Plus fbref doesn’t record the all important ‘player being a facking retaaard’ percentage.
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Pote is never a facking retaaard