comment by Not So Bored As Fudge (U21998)
posted 1 hour, 59 minutes ago
Unfortunately Ange is becoming a bit of a religion with some on here and no criticism will be a accepted. When challenged, they say he needs 3 more windows without taking into consideration what is going on now.

No matter who he buys and plays as fullback, they will still be playing central midfield and whoever is a centre back will be standing in the opposition half or crossing from the byline. Our so called wingers won't be crossing or helping their fullbacks.

This is like a Colombo episode, we've seen the end and who did it, the story is how we get their.

I take no joy in this and am just baffled how many people refuse to see this.

There are players who don't suit the Premier League and we have a manager who falls into the same category.

These next three games, I think our manager is going to throw a hissy fit with the reaction of the fans on the stadium.
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And the alternative is...

I keep getting told Ange needs two more transfer windows. In the last two he bought 1 starter.

Enic have created the disconnect. They charge huge prices and fail to provide on the field.

They have done all they can to get rid of the loyal fan in exchange for the day tripper who spends more. That’s why the atmosphere is so poor most games

They’ve even blocked a fan group trying to buy a whole block for ‘singing’

People will make excuse after excuse but the facts are they for (most) to see.

No way does this squad win anything this year. It just doesn’t have the minerals.

comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Not So Bored As Fudge (U21998)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
Unfortunately Ange is becoming a bit of a religion with some on here and no criticism will be a accepted. When challenged, they say he needs 3 more windows without taking into consideration what is going on now.

No matter who he buys and plays as fullback, they will still be playing central midfield and whoever is a centre back will be standing in the opposition half or crossing from the byline. Our so called wingers won't be crossing or helping their fullbacks.

This is like a Colombo episode, we've seen the end and who did it, the story is how we get their.

I take no joy in this and am just baffled how many people refuse to see this.

There are players who don't suit the Premier League and we have a manager who falls into the same category.

These next three games, I think our manager is going to throw a hissy fit with the reaction of the fans on the stadium.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You say "what is going on now" as if it's an unmitigated disaster.

We are quite well placed. 7th. 3 pts from top 4, 5 from 2nd. I would expect the sort of massive post mortem the some go through every time we don t win if we were well off this pace, out of the cups or doing no good in Europe.

Right now it's not the disaster that some are painting it as and it can still turn out to be our most successful season in over 30 years.

Those predicting a failed season after 13 pl games and half a dozen cup games are the usual ones attacking the club at all levels.

Ange won 26 of his first 50 PL games. Matching the records of Klopp and Aryeta, who had similar rebuilds to oversee.

Anyone who gives no allowance for missing 8 first teamers vs Fulham really lacks any sort of fairness or objectivity and are simply looking to bang their favourite drum. Similarly, anyone who thinks our squad should be perfect by now is also being totally unrealistic.

Folks like Diamond happy to kill any comment about the quality of the kids we bought as 'wild speculation' but very happy to use beyond wild speculation (closer to just being made up BS) about the Board and managers motives to inform his most negative of opinions.

Already judged Ange as the wrong man

Said it loads b4, when the going gets tough, real men/fans get in behind their team. Cowards stick the feckin knife in

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm less interested in points on the board and more interested in performances at this stage. If the performances are there then naturally the points will follow. The problem I can't shake from my mind is how many top chances we gift the opposition. It's no joke to say that if you break our heavy press, you're in and 80-90% of the time that will either lead to a really good chance or will require heroics from Vic or a last ditch sprinting challenge from VDV to save the day. Our desire to become the highest scorers in the league, which we've achieved, is at the cost of a weakened and exposed defence. The reason other teams don't do this is because it's not a sustainable policy. The burden is too fierce on A) the front line to outscore the opposition and B) the defence for trying to keep out the opposition when two of the four players in defence are preoccupied trying to achieve A, leaving them woefully exposed.

The achievements of other clubs I'm really not interested in. If we're 3 points off 3rd that's a massaging off figures to reflect an agenda. We're also only 2 points away from 13th.

Onto your other point about Klopp and Guardiola - I'm sure some of it is valid but when you consider that the progress isn't linear in the same ways theirs was, it's cause for concern. The reason the numbers are similar is because Ange got off to a ferocious start and won I think 8 of the first 10 games and drew the other two. Since that Chelsea game, which is over a year ago, I wonder how Ange's record stacks up agains the others? Probably not as favourable, right?

Onto the point about injuries - yeah I get it, but honestly, yesterday wasn't an anomaly based on absentees. We've had countless poor games like that all season long when we had a full strength side. Most of the issues yesterday, as with many a game this season, came down both flanks, primarily Porro's side. Both Porro and Udogie were playing, yet they're targeted by opposition teams because they know that the wide areas are where players can get space. Both Porro and Udogie are told to sit high and enter midfield on the ball, leaving space on either flank on the transition. It's a tactical issue, not a personnel one. That's entirely on Ange.

Your support of the regime is admirable in many ways but sometimes you do have to call a spade a spade. If we're not performing well, that's on Ange for setting us up in a specific way and it's on Levy for not buying him the best tools to do his job. It's a combination of them both. Ange has already said that the club won't buy ready made players and that we have to operate differently. Do we? Surely as the most financially secure club in the league, assuming you're sticking to the rules, we have the most wiggle room. So why aren't we buying a Rice or a Neto or an Eze? Because Levy doesn't want to do it, that's why. It all comes down to him. I'm pretty sure if you give Ange top players, he'd do very well. I'm just not sure why we have to accept that we have to wait for cheap young players to flourish, without any guarantees they ever will, when we have the finances to buy ready made players. Too many fans have accepted both a lack of ambition in the boardroom and mediocre standards on the pitch. If Ange wants to foster a winning mentality at the club, that starts with the will of those really in charge at the very top and they just don't share the same priorities.

comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Not So Bored As Fudge (U21998)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
Unfortunately Ange is becoming a bit of a religion with some on here and no criticism will be a accepted. When challenged, they say he needs 3 more windows without taking into consideration what is going on now.

No matter who he buys and plays as fullback, they will still be playing central midfield and whoever is a centre back will be standing in the opposition half or crossing from the byline. Our so called wingers won't be crossing or helping their fullbacks.

This is like a Colombo episode, we've seen the end and who did it, the story is how we get their.

I take no joy in this and am just baffled how many people refuse to see this.

There are players who don't suit the Premier League and we have a manager who falls into the same category.

These next three games, I think our manager is going to throw a hissy fit with the reaction of the fans on the stadium.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You say "what is going on now" as if it's an unmitigated disaster.

We are quite well placed. 7th. 3 pts from top 4, 5 from 2nd. I would expect the sort of massive post mortem the some go through every time we don t win if we were well off this pace, out of the cups or doing no good in Europe.

Right now it's not the disaster that some are painting it as and it can still turn out to be our most successful season in over 30 years.

Those predicting a failed season after 13 pl games and half a dozen cup games are the usual ones attacking the club at all levels.

Ange won 26 of his first 50 PL games. Matching the records of Klopp and Aryeta, who had similar rebuilds to oversee.

Anyone who gives no allowance for missing 8 first teamers vs Fulham really lacks any sort of fairness or objectivity and are simply looking to bang their favourite drum. Similarly, anyone who thinks our squad should be perfect by now is also being totally unrealistic.

Folks like Diamond happy to kill any comment about the quality of the kids we bought as 'wild speculation' but very happy to use beyond wild speculation (closer to just being made up BS) about the Board and managers motives to inform his most negative of opinions.

Already judged Ange as the wrong man

Said it loads b4, when the going gets tough, real men/fans get in behind their team. Cowards stick the feckin knife in

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm less interested in points on the board and more interested in performances at this stage. If the performances are there then naturally the points will follow. The problem I can't shake from my mind is how many top chances we gift the opposition. It's no joke to say that if you break our heavy press, you're in and 80-90% of the time that will either lead to a really good chance or will require heroics from Vic or a last ditch sprinting challenge from VDV to save the day. Our desire to become the highest scorers in the league, which we've achieved, is at the cost of a weakened and exposed defence. The reason other teams don't do this is because it's not a sustainable policy. The burden is too fierce on A) the front line to outscore the opposition and B) the defence for trying to keep out the opposition when two of the four players in defence are preoccupied trying to achieve A, leaving them woefully exposed.

The achievements of other clubs I'm really not interested in. If we're 3 points off 3rd that's a massaging off figures to reflect an agenda. We're also only 2 points away from 13th.

Onto your other point about Klopp and Guardiola - I'm sure some of it is valid but when you consider that the progress isn't linear in the same ways theirs was, it's cause for concern. The reason the numbers are similar is because Ange got off to a ferocious start and won I think 8 of the first 10 games and drew the other two. Since that Chelsea game, which is over a year ago, I wonder how Ange's record stacks up agains the others? Probably not as favourable, right?

Onto the point about injuries - yeah I get it, but honestly, yesterday wasn't an anomaly based on absentees. We've had countless poor games like that all season long when we had a full strength side. Most of the issues yesterday, as with many a game this season, came down both flanks, primarily Porro's side. Both Porro and Udogie were playing, yet they're targeted by opposition teams because they know that the wide areas are where players can get space. Both Porro and Udogie are told to sit high and enter midfield on the ball, leaving space on either flank on the transition. It's a tactical issue, not a personnel one. That's entirely on Ange.

Your support of the regime is admirable in many ways but sometimes you do have to call a spade a spade. If we're not performing well, that's on Ange for setting us up in a specific way and it's on Levy for not buying him the best tools to do his job. It's a combination of them both. Ange has already said that the club won't buy ready made players and that we have to operate differently. Do we? Surely as the most financially secure club in the league, assuming you're sticking to the rules, we have the most wiggle room. So why aren't we buying a Rice or a Neto or an Eze? Because Levy doesn't want to do it, that's why. It all comes down to him. I'm pretty sure if you give Ange top players, he'd do very well. I'm just not sure why we have to accept that we have to wait for cheap young players to flourish, without any guarantees they ever will, when we have the finances to buy ready made players. Too many fans have accepted both a lack of ambition in the boardroom and mediocre standards on the pitch. If Ange wants to foster a winning mentality at the club, that starts with the will of those really in charge at the very top and they just don't share the same priorities.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


I totally agree with everything in this post

The disconnect is that Ange is probably sitting there thinking if he had better players it would be better and more consistent.

The disconnect is the players are probably sitting there thinking if we had a better manager it would be better and more consistent.

The disconnect is fans are sitting there split or not knowing which way to think.

Meanwhile, Levy & board are sitting there thinking if we can just keep it going like that, we can continue to not give a feck.

Our highlights this season don't even look as impressive in retrospect:

Beat City twice during Pep's worst ever spell as manager. They've been in dire straits without Rodri. We are also a bit of a bogey team for them.

We beat a Man United team who had their worst start to a PL ever.

Even Villa have been on a poor run for a while.

comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 1 minute ago
Our highlights this season don't even look as impressive in retrospect:

Beat City twice during Pep's worst ever spell as manager. They've been in dire straits without Rodri. We are also a bit of a bogey team for them.

We beat a Man United team who had their worst start to a PL ever.

Even Villa have been on a poor run for a while.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was thinking exactly the same thing. All of the major wins have an asterisk.

Could say the same for the famous Poch era. No Fergie or Wenger. The league was weak.

The games against City in the cup and Ajax were won on away goals. Stick an Asterix on the whole era.

Under ENIC too.

Fridge

My main issue with the level of criticism levelled at Ange, club, Levy, players is that not enough time has been allowed to let everything play out.

We don't go from unmitigated mess from the Conte fallout to title challengers in 15 months.

We have spent a lot (£350m) but more needs to be spent. Only United and Cheslea have spent more since Ange arrived.

Development takes time and Arsenal werent buying Havertz and Rice after 1 season. They were buying Odegaard (21) Gabriel (22) Lokonga, Partey and getting Willian (32) and Soares on freebies.

Our fans look at the squad an wonder why we got Werner and didnt spend +£60m on a winger, why we also didnt spend another 40-50m on a Davies replacement, and while we're at it why we havent spent another £20-30m on a back up keeper.

Having spent £350m already, I feel like, if you have to ask these questions, then do you really have an idea about how a football club is run. There is the crazy Chelsea model and then there is 19 other clubs who spend what they earn, who will mix that between instant impact and youth and who look to do that over time. Within that there are many, including Villa and Newcastle who have to tread very carefully with their finances to ensure they do not breach PSR rules. We dont know where we are on the PSR scale. Last years figures showed £50m losses, although not all of it relates to PSR, so anyone with fake knowledge about how much head room we have to invest is simply guessing.

To use a very Arteta word, it's a process, and this is where we are at. We are still building our squad but what we have now is still capable of winning stuff and ending well up the league.

I cannot stand the constant biiitching about everything at the club every time we drop a point from here until May. It's far from being a supporter IMO. It's just being a critic.

Good debate, interesting points. Im not solely blaming Ange, levy or the players but I just feel like something aint right. I'm afraid I dont buy the argument thats its a process and that Ange needs time. I honestly don't think His way of playing will work at the highest level... sure it will bring the odd win to be savored but for him to get Spurs to win consistently playing the way he does would basically being him revolutionizing Football at the top level as we know it... He aint Pep and we aint Man City.

All of the great winning teams have been built on Solid foundations...For the very simple reasons that the fancy players at the other end don't always bring their shooting boots etc. Pep's City, Fergie's United. Jose's Chelsea., Kilopp's Liverpool & Wegner's Arsenal were all fantastic teams who scored a ton of goals and played wonderful football but it was all built around keeping them out first... Every good team knows when to take a draw and move on..... Spurs dont

Like I said earlier, I've seen nothing from Ange to suggest he's anything more an than medicine manager post Conte & Jose....... The neutrals love to watch us, Nobody respects us

Spurs have the second youngest average squad age in the PL, coupled with the 6th lowest % of minutes afforded to academy players. That tells you quite a lot. But the main thing it points to is that players we have signed - there has been many - haven’t been bought for the here and now.

comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 18 hours, 9 minutes ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 10 seconds ago
I think Ange is enjoying his day in the Sun...... I suspect in 12 months he'll be back in Oz, enjoying his pay-off and you'll never hear from him again. I don't think he was hired because anyone thought he was born winner/ great football tactician.... He was medicine to cure a fan base disillusioned after years of Conte, Jose & Nuno..... He's exactly what it says on the tin. A smart business decision (bums back on seats) but the wrong football one...... now where have I seen that before
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And again. You're good at it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said.... I'm baffled about Spurs.. Dunno if its Ange, Levy, The players..... But something aint right.... who knows
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Baffled? There's nothing baffling about Spurs current situation. Yes we have injuries, but that's the nature of the Premiership and every club has injuries.
The problem is the manager.
I think he's lost the dressing room.
Why? Because most sensible players know that all out attack 100% of the time gets punished. And you have to be able to put some effort into defence.

I was very struck by the Fulham game because most of the time, first half anyways, Fulham played well, and we actually had a defensive back four....Porro, Dragusin, Davies, Udogie.
And they played damned well. Kelp Fulham out of our goal. With a little help from Forster.
It was when we all went upfield in the manager's all out attack, and left Forster looking for a pair of binoculars to see where his defence was, that Fulham actually did what all the managers are doing to us now....hoof the ball downfield and start a foot race.
Result: 2 points lost.

For Ange I think the writing is on the wall...get lucky or get lost..... by Xmas!

comment by BelfastSpur (U15068)
posted 9 hours, 7 minutes ago
Spurs have the second youngest average squad age in the PL, coupled with the 6th lowest % of minutes afforded to academy players. That tells you quite a lot. But the main thing it points to is that players we have signed - there has been many - haven’t been bought for the here and now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Current firstteam:

Vicario
Van de Ven
Solanke
Johnson
Maddison

all bought for Ange and the first XI at about £210m

back up to first XI:

Dragusin, Werner, Odobert at about £50m

Kids, to play some part now but bigger future:

Gary (18), Bergvall (18), Veliz (19), Phillips (18) Vuskovic (16) at about £70m

So roughly first team spend 65%, first team squad 15%, future 20%

I just have a real problem when people say stuff to support their narrative and it just aint true.

comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 13 hours, 29 minutes ago
Good debate, interesting points. Im not solely blaming Ange, levy or the players but I just feel like something aint right. I'm afraid I dont buy the argument thats its a process and that Ange needs time. I honestly don't think His way of playing will work at the highest level... sure it will bring the odd win to be savored but for him to get Spurs to win consistently playing the way he does would basically being him revolutionizing Football at the top level as we know it... He aint Pep and we aint Man City.

All of the great winning teams have been built on Solid foundations...For the very simple reasons that the fancy players at the other end don't always bring their shooting boots etc. Pep's City, Fergie's United. Jose's Chelsea., Kilopp's Liverpool & Wegner's Arsenal were all fantastic teams who scored a ton of goals and played wonderful football but it was all built around keeping them out first... Every good team knows when to take a draw and move on..... Spurs dont

Like I said earlier, I've seen nothing from Ange to suggest he's anything more an than medicine manager post Conte & Jose....... The neutrals love to watch us, Nobody respects us
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So we will not win anything this season. You know that for sure because you have watched Spurs for 15 months under Ange and have concluded that we are incapable of beating any team on their day.

I find that a staggering conclusion to reach and I fail to understand how anyone can find any joy in supporting their club when 1/3 into the season, in all the cups, a handful of points off 2nd and the season is written off.

No doubt you have the "I hope i'm proved wrong" tag lined up ready to go, but for me, supporting a team isnt about "hoping to be proved wrong". In fact that is almost the opposite of support.

Both sides of this debate are so entrenched in their views that, despite what the other says, their views won't change.

I even read comments from a couple of fans on here saying that we should put an asterisk against the wins against Man City and Man Utd, because somehow they were not real wins because of the circumstances!

The negativity towards Ange is remarkable, but it is what it is. Time will tell as to which side of this argument is right.

I’m confused by the strategy at the club. Was it to plan for the future and buy prospects? Ok, well then you actually have to play these prospects. Start them or you end up with loads of injuries. Or a situation where they just get thrown in and look way out of their depth

What was the point of putting spence on another contract? Porro looks knackered and no sign of spence anywhere

We kept lankshear as third choice striker but Ange refuses to bring him on when we need a goal

Our whole game centres around inverted wingbacks, a hugely energetic number 6 and a goalkeeper that can beat a press by playing out from the back

Yet we sign literally zero back ups to those positions

We don’t put Spencer in the Europa squad, instead we put two extra goalkeepers in that Ange refuses to play

I don’t see any kind of joined up thinking between the management and the board, just like under conte, mourinho, Poch etc etc etc

I don’t blame Ange, although I do find some of his decisions very strange.

That’s why I think Ange will join the ever growing list of managers who cannot make the Enic strategy work in the field, simply because it doesn’t.

Good debate guys.... who knows what's really going on.... I can see both sides of the argument, personally I don't see anything other than more of the same.... inconsistent results, failing when the pressure is on, naive tactics and a club/business that simply won't risk (& i appreciate it's a huge financial risk) to try and take the club to the next sporting level. Maybe it's a much longer term project both in terms of Ange and in terms of the club growing organically than I'm willing to accept (I'm the first to admit I'm inpatient) but we all accept it's a win now business given the money involved & its not like we are moaning having won a cup or 2 in the past decade !!!

I'm sure Levy places short term expectations on his managers (Getting CL etc) has a manager talk about his wins in Scotland and Japan but builds his business in a long term/ sustainable manner (steady, sensible spend, buying young players for the future/ high resale etc..... & people wonder why some fans ask if there's a disconnect.

At this point I'd be happy with back to back league wins.. They've been too few & far between

comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 4 minutes ago
Good debate guys.... who knows what's really going on.... I can see both sides of the argument, personally I don't see anything other than more of the same.... inconsistent results, failing when the pressure is on, naive tactics and a club/business that simply won't risk (& i appreciate it's a huge financial risk) to try and take the club to the next sporting level. Maybe it's a much longer term project both in terms of Ange and in terms of the club growing organically than I'm willing to accept (I'm the first to admit I'm inpatient) but we all accept it's a win now business given the money involved & its not like we are moaning having won a cup or 2 in the past decade !!!

I'm sure Levy places short term expectations on his managers (Getting CL etc) has a manager talk about his wins in Scotland and Japan but builds his business in a long term/ sustainable manner (steady, sensible spend, buying young players for the future/ high resale etc..... & people wonder why some fans ask if there's a disconnect.

At this point I'd be happy with back to back league wins.. They've been too few & far between
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have always said that i completely understand fans' impatience because we have been jam tomorrow for so long.

But this is a long term project and fans have to get onboard with that. Ange has a 4 year deal. We have a young squad that will grow together. We have enough quality to be top 6 and may be better and we have enough quality to beat anyone on our day, and we have. I think the only teams Ange hasnt beaten is Chelsea (L, L) Wolves (L,L) and Arsenal D,L,L).

DO fans look at our squad an think it's complete? No, they're probably thinking we need another back up CB (£25m) a back up LB (£30m) and a stand out wide attacker to replace Son/Werner (£60-75m) and a better no.2 GK (£15-20m). That's another £130-£150m and that's probably the bare minimum.

SO of course this is long term. Come this time next year it could be £0.5bn spent under Ange's reign from a chairman who "doesn't back the manager"

We remain a work in progress but we do need to see improvement over this season. Improved defensive record, improved away form, greater consistency.

We know on our day that we are a force to be reckoned with so this may mean we are more of a cup team than a league team right now, and that isnt necessarily a bad thing at this stage, but we do need to begin to move on from great one-off performances.

The Fulham game was nearly perfect for us. It would have been absolutely ideal with win badly, with a lot missing, because so far this season we have shown that below par performances end in losses. So a draw was not the worst thing, if you can accept that a team will not always be at its very best and needs to grind a result from time to time (we nearly did it and the fact their goal was deflected and they should have had 2 red cards, was a bit unlucky).

It's those sorts of games where we need to get something and if we had played badly and beaten Ipswich and drawn at Palace, then we'd be right in there, and we'd still be disappointed with a Fulham draw, but not disastrous.

So for me we are not too far off. We need to make these small improvements, but fans needs to accept that sometimes we will drop points because we are far from the finished article, individually or as a sqaud.

The OTT response to any dropped points on here is just bonkers.

The OTT response to any dropped points on here is just bonkers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How is it bonkers for a fanbase to expect a level of consistency? Your performances are so flaky and this suggests your Manager doesn't know what he is doing tactically. You've excellent players by the way so should be taking advantage of the dodgy results of late of the other big teams (bar Liverpool)

comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 4 minutes ago
Good debate guys.... who knows what's really going on.... I can see both sides of the argument, personally I don't see anything other than more of the same.... inconsistent results, failing when the pressure is on, naive tactics and a club/business that simply won't risk (& i appreciate it's a huge financial risk) to try and take the club to the next sporting level. Maybe it's a much longer term project both in terms of Ange and in terms of the club growing organically than I'm willing to accept (I'm the first to admit I'm inpatient) but we all accept it's a win now business given the money involved & its not like we are moaning having won a cup or 2 in the past decade !!!

I'm sure Levy places short term expectations on his managers (Getting CL etc) has a manager talk about his wins in Scotland and Japan but builds his business in a long term/ sustainable manner (steady, sensible spend, buying young players for the future/ high resale etc..... & people wonder why some fans ask if there's a disconnect.

At this point I'd be happy with back to back league wins.. They've been too few & far between
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have always said that i completely understand fans' impatience because we have been jam tomorrow for so long.

But this is a long term project and fans have to get onboard with that. Ange has a 4 year deal. We have a young squad that will grow together. We have enough quality to be top 6 and may be better and we have enough quality to beat anyone on our day, and we have. I think the only teams Ange hasnt beaten is Chelsea (L, L) Wolves (L,L) and Arsenal D,L,L).

DO fans look at our squad an think it's complete? No, they're probably thinking we need another back up CB (£25m) a back up LB (£30m) and a stand out wide attacker to replace Son/Werner (£60-75m) and a better no.2 GK (£15-20m). That's another £130-£150m and that's probably the bare minimum.

SO of course this is long term. Come this time next year it could be £0.5bn spent under Ange's reign from a chairman who "doesn't back the manager"

We remain a work in progress but we do need to see improvement over this season. Improved defensive record, improved away form, greater consistency.

We know on our day that we are a force to be reckoned with so this may mean we are more of a cup team than a league team right now, and that isnt necessarily a bad thing at this stage, but we do need to begin to move on from great one-off performances.

The Fulham game was nearly perfect for us. It would have been absolutely ideal with win badly, with a lot missing, because so far this season we have shown that below par performances end in losses. So a draw was not the worst thing, if you can accept that a team will not always be at its very best and needs to grind a result from time to time (we nearly did it and the fact their goal was deflected and they should have had 2 red cards, was a bit unlucky).

It's those sorts of games where we need to get something and if we had played badly and beaten Ipswich and drawn at Palace, then we'd be right in there, and we'd still be disappointed with a Fulham draw, but not disastrous.

So for me we are not too far off. We need to make these small improvements, but fans needs to accept that sometimes we will drop points because we are far from the finished article, individually or as a sqaud.

The OTT response to any dropped points on here is just bonkers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post....I agree with much it but I don't share in your optimism but thats cool... No need for everyone to think the same.. I fear I'm too old and too cynical to believe that because Ange has a 4 year deal this is some kind of a new dawn and that Spurs are embarking on some kind of long term rebuild. At the end of the day... This is Levy we are talking about and as we all know..... Someone else always carry's the can.... watch your back Ange !

Dev - As ever, you make good points, however I don't think both Levy and Ange should be as immune to criticism as you think they should be.

First of all, I do think there's a tactical issue that is seeing our goal getting routinely peppered with shots and I'm struggling to see how time is likely to change this. I just think Ange is more than comfortable with the "you score 3, we'll score 4" policy but throughout history this has never, ever lead to any tangible success. Someone else has already alluded to it but the most successful teams have one thing in common - a stingy defence. Even Pep's team has evolved to a point where he sometimes plays four centre backs in defence, with fewer attacking runs from full backs. Does Ange have a plan to reduce the amount of shots on our goal? Does he even care? His main objective is to press really aggressively but in the absence of any true sitting midfielder or any full back with defensive instruction or instinct, once you beat our press, you're in. It's naive. It's Playstation football, as Gary Neville once said. If you haven't got the players, you're just shooting yourself in the foot playing that way. I'm struggling to see how any of this changes given how headstrong he is and how allergic to flexibility he can be.

So we've established there are, for me, tactical issues with the way Ange plays, but then you have to consider club ambition. We sold PEH, mainly I believe to get his wages off the bill, and we were told that Gray and Bergvall had impressed so much in training that we were no longer looking for a number 6, a position that felt like a priority. Fast forward to now and we have Bergvall who clearly isn't ready and Gray who isn't trusted in his favoured midfield position. So who do we have on the bench that can calm nerves, maintain composure and see out a narrow lead? I've no idea how involved Ange was with the midfield recruitment but I doubt he'd be happy to have not adequately replaced such an important role. All of that feels negligent to me. We've massively been hoodwinked there because we were clearly told Gray was the answer.

It's funny how each and every football decision like that just so happens to also be financially beneficial to the club too. We're lead to believe that it was a smart footballing decision but let's face it. We now know it wasn't. It was just a money grab, pure and simple.

I just don't share your optimism that this project will bear fruit, even if I freely admit that I'm showing a lack of patience. I'd be surprised if any Spurs fan long enough in the tooth to have had to endure the entirety of Levy's reign would think any differently. What makes you think this one will work when many others have failed, particularly with this tactical set up?

comment by Dan Arsenal (U21084)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
The OTT response to any dropped points on here is just bonkers.
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How is it bonkers for a fanbase to expect a level of consistency? Your performances are so flaky and this suggests your Manager doesn't know what he is doing tactically. You've excellent players by the way so should be taking advantage of the dodgy results of late of the other big teams (bar Liverpool)
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You were demanding Arteta out 50 games into Arsenal's reign and beyond...about 70 games after you ended 8th!

We can demand consistency but if it was as easily done as said then football would not be the mystery it is. It is the hardest thing to achieve, whatever level you are at. Arsenal managed it this season, last 6 LDLDWW Nope!!

If the same old issues persist late into the season, if this costs us in cups and the league then we can agree that it's failing.

For context, Spurs just drew with Fulham after a midweek game and in Arsenal context we were missing the equivalent of Raya, Saliba, Gabriel, Havertz, Jesus, Partey, Nwaneri, Sterling.

I would be interested to see how Arsenal coped with that lot out.

comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 50 minutes ago
Dev - As ever, you make good points, however I don't think both Levy and Ange should be as immune to criticism as you think they should be.

First of all, I do think there's a tactical issue that is seeing our goal getting routinely peppered with shots and I'm struggling to see how time is likely to change this. I just think Ange is more than comfortable with the "you score 3, we'll score 4" policy but throughout history this has never, ever lead to any tangible success. Someone else has already alluded to it but the most successful teams have one thing in common - a stingy defence. Even Pep's team has evolved to a point where he sometimes plays four centre backs in defence, with fewer attacking runs from full backs. Does Ange have a plan to reduce the amount of shots on our goal? Does he even care? His main objective is to press really aggressively but in the absence of any true sitting midfielder or any full back with defensive instruction or instinct, once you beat our press, you're in. It's naive. It's Playstation football, as Gary Neville once said. If you haven't got the players, you're just shooting yourself in the foot playing that way. I'm struggling to see how any of this changes given how headstrong he is and how allergic to flexibility he can be.

So we've established there are, for me, tactical issues with the way Ange plays, but then you have to consider club ambition. We sold PEH, mainly I believe to get his wages off the bill, and we were told that Gray and Bergvall had impressed so much in training that we were no longer looking for a number 6, a position that felt like a priority. Fast forward to now and we have Bergvall who clearly isn't ready and Gray who isn't trusted in his favoured midfield position. So who do we have on the bench that can calm nerves, maintain composure and see out a narrow lead? I've no idea how involved Ange was with the midfield recruitment but I doubt he'd be happy to have not adequately replaced such an important role. All of that feels negligent to me. We've massively been hoodwinked there because we were clearly told Gray was the answer.

It's funny how each and every football decision like that just so happens to also be financially beneficial to the club too. We're lead to believe that it was a smart footballing decision but let's face it. We now know it wasn't. It was just a money grab, pure and simple.

I just don't share your optimism that this project will bear fruit, even if I freely admit that I'm showing a lack of patience. I'd be surprised if any Spurs fan long enough in the tooth to have had to endure the entirety of Levy's reign would think any differently. What makes you think this one will work when many others have failed, particularly with this tactical set up?
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Fair enough.

What i do not agree with with Ange is that while our tactics demand we take risks, which mean we concede chances, we also create and score THE MOST goals. Many over look this. (BTW our XGA is the 5th best, so its not like we're facing relegation level chances against us). We have not yet found the right balance consistently and part of that is also the level of performance. vs City we aced it. We need to ace it more and when we don't we need to grind. I think we know this and are learning it. I do think we were so up against it with injuries vs Fulham that it was always a tough ask (look at my Arsenal equivalent list above to give context of who'd they be missing. It would cripple most teams).

Its funny you point to our CM because actually, 3 positions filled by Bentancur, Bissouma, Sarr, Maddison, Deki is one of the strongest in the league and probably our strength, so i do not see it as an issue that the 6th and 7th choices are kids.

Spence omission from the Europa squad was a mistake, as Udogie & Porro have not been properly rested. We need another CB although Davies has done really well.

Its the game changer up from that is costing us IMO. Son is not quite on it, Werner is Werner, BJ is there to tap goals in but his all round contribution is not enough. Richy is now a fully fledged sicknote. Shame Odobert got a bad one too!

Levy's contribution to the current set up is far less hands on than it was. He will set the strategy, so the likes of Lange will be working knowing that we have to plan forward, get value as well as just getting for the first XI, and i have no real issue with this, so long as we start to see the progression of the squad.

If next summer we fill those 2 or 3 gaps with same quality, Gray becomes more trusted, Bergvall gaining some more confidence, Moore starting to make a mark, then there is a lot to look forward to.

"Its funny you point to our CM because actually, 3 positions filled by Bentancur, Bissouma, Sarr, Maddison, Deki is one of the strongest in the league and probably our strength, so i do not see it as an issue that the 6th and 7th choices are kids."

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As far as I'm concerned, none of those players qualify as a 6. They're more 8 in their profile. Maybe Bissouma but he's not a great protector. For all his faults, PEH was someone that would sit, calm things down and dictate the pace of a game. I don't think any of the midfielders listed are even close to him in terms of ability off the ball and knowing where to cover. I don't blame them. They've been told that attacking is all that matters. It's little wonder they neglect defending because whether they mean to or not, the message Ange likes to perpetuate in the media about 'entertaining' directly informs how determined they are to track back. If he doesn't care about conceding goals, why should they?

Let's see how it all goes but until we get a bit of consistency, I'm not going to get excited about any individual win. What's the point in beating City only to pick up one point against Ipswich, Palace and Fulham? Inconsistency feeds apathy. Numb to the losses and joyless at the wins until they can actually mean something at the end of the day. Time will tell I guess but we're going to need to see a huge uplift between now and the end of the year. If this keeps up, he's done by summer.

comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 6 minutes ago
"Its funny you point to our CM because actually, 3 positions filled by Bentancur, Bissouma, Sarr, Maddison, Deki is one of the strongest in the league and probably our strength, so i do not see it as an issue that the 6th and 7th choices are kids."

–––-

As far as I'm concerned, none of those players qualify as a 6. They're more 8 in their profile. Maybe Bissouma but he's not a great protector. For all his faults, PEH was someone that would sit, calm things down and dictate the pace of a game. I don't think any of the midfielders listed are even close to him in terms of ability off the ball and knowing where to cover. I don't blame them. They've been told that attacking is all that matters. It's little wonder they neglect defending because whether they mean to or not, the message Ange likes to perpetuate in the media about 'entertaining' directly informs how determined they are to track back. If he doesn't care about conceding goals, why should they?

Let's see how it all goes but until we get a bit of consistency, I'm not going to get excited about any individual win. What's the point in beating City only to pick up one point against Ipswich, Palace and Fulham? Inconsistency feeds apathy. Numb to the losses and joyless at the wins until they can actually mean something at the end of the day. Time will tell I guess but we're going to need to see a huge uplift between now and the end of the year. If this keeps up, he's done by summer.
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Not sure it matters much but I think we've had 3 back to league wins since the great start to last season.... Spurs have so many good players & I appreciate injuries have been a problem (But everyone could say the same) but you do have to wonder whether its mentality thing or Squad depth(Thats on Ange and Levy at a higher level), If its a tactics thing, then it's on Ange and perhaps a bit of humility on his part to say "I'm new to this Prem League thing and I'll figure it out" wouldn't go a miss. Its his stubbornness and "i know best" mentality when he has nothing of substance to back it up that drives me mad.

Go Back and Look at Celtic Vs Real Madrid in the CL.... Its ideology, stubbornness to HIS principles and the need to be entertaining over the common sense reality of football..... We are seeing the same thing all over again.

I like Ange but I wish he could adapt to level he's operating at with the players at his disposal rather than saying this is who I am and that's it...... It will get him fired and that in itself is a shame