JB, to be honest I would not go as far as to say that Suarez did not intend to cause offence although there is sufficient cultural ambiguity to suggest that its entirely possible that he didn't. The fact is that only he knows.
Ignorance is no excuse so he has learnt a lesson
What I find ridiculous is the number of rival fans who are now tarring the club and its fans as racists, when Suarez himself has not even been branded racist.
I am interested in drawing comparisons with other people's views on what constitues racism in a wider context to see whether they really have the right to take the moral high ground with such sanctimony on this issue.
Judaism is a religion but Jews are one of those groups described as ethnoreligious because they can't be difined soley as one or the other.
FSB - forgetting the obvious 'tribal' reasons why football fans have stuck the boot into LFC regarding this issue.
I think what's totally exacerbated the whole saga (way beyond the original act by Suarez) is the way LFC have dealt with the issue.
From the start they looked to question the character of Evra, rather than say nothing & let the case take it's course, they were on the front foot from the off.
Post verdict, the initial statement was hasty, poorly thought out & confrontational. Followed swiflty by the crass T shirts - people started feeling uncomfortable with their stance imo, as at this point they were openly defending a man who'd been convicted of racial abuse. It left a bad taste.
After everyone had chance to digest the report, it appeared that despite not being a crime worthy of the death penalty, the man was patently guilty as charged. However, LFC decided to launch another tirade at the FA & all concerned whilst denying their right to appeal. Which was both transparent & again quite distasteful.
The PR imo has been shocking, they could have turned it around & gained respect by acting in a more considered & far less confrontational manner.
Suarez himself will get some abuse on his return (notably at OT) but it'll soon subside, as I don't think there's many out there who consider him to be a racist.
FSB - I don't know whether he intended to cause offence or not either. As you say only he knows. He didn't start the dialogue but that is neither here nor there, if you come back with worse than you got and again we don't know what was said - you are open for whatever sanctions that brings. We only know what was reported as being said.
I think as the conversation was in a foreign language, we can't apply an English ruler to the language, intent or interpretation of the words used. We can however apply an English ruler to the behaviour. We can say that players can't converse in their mother tongue on the field. As it appears that racist comments are top of the no-no list, we can provide education in what is acceptable in this country.
I noticed yesterday the FA took no action over one of their own for sending racist text messages - they too need some educating it seems.
Judaism is a religion but Jews are one of those groups described as ethnoreligious because they can't be difined soley as one or the other.
----------------------------------------------
Israel is a country, there's many Israelis that aren't Jews.
Pedantic comments aside, the Hitler question is interesting as he was brought up as a Catholic & there's those who hold the view that he was merely continuing the history of Christian persecution of the Jews, rather than 'inventing' genocide.
TB - you're right, the club haven't handled it in the best way and whoever they have in PR need sacking.
Jews have certain physical similarities and this is one of the reasons why there is an ethnicity component to it. Most can trace back to one single line and they are included as a group with protection under the Race Relations Act - along with Sikhs who share a similar ethnoreligious grouping.
TB, I can't disagree with much of that I'm afraid. It has been handled very poorly. Far too agressive from the start. Surely a more conciliatory tone would have been more appropriate.
I personally think the 8 match ban is a bit harsh though. I'm very interested to see what happens in the JT case. I think there will be a disparity between the 2 judgements/punishments due to the FA's obvious wish not to harm the euro 2012 prospects as evidenced by their campaigning to reduce Rooney's ban. Will they punish JT if the courts find him not guilty? Is it fair to punish him again if the courts punish him?
TB, thats feasible re Hitler but he also had it in for the Slavs in a big way, which had no religious grounding, he just thought they were an inferior race.
JB, personally I would think that cultural differences should be considered to an extent. However, how do you quantify the 'extent'? There are cultural differences that you need to be aware of when you visit other countries and if the body applying the rules deems that ignorance is no excuse then I guess there's no argument.
FSB,
it took you a while,but you got there in the end.
FSB - I think this could end Terry's time in this country. I can't see how he's not going to get found guilty given the pretty clear video evidence. If the courts find him guilty then the FA will have to issue a massive ban, given the Suarez precedent. If he get's off, then they can close the case.
Concerned, plenty more battles ahead eh?
TB, its going to be interesting. I'll be back for some post verdict debate
Fsb, i am pretty sure there will be.
"personally I would think that cultural differences should be considered to an extent. However, how do you quantify the 'extent'?"
To me it's pretty clear cut when the conversation is in a foreign language. Had he said 'hey negro boy' for instance then he's deemed fully aware of what he's saying and it's easy to bring a verdict on that.
Up until this happened - I would have said a conversation in a shared foreign language would have no action taken other than a stern warning that it musn't occur again ie the cultural difference has been taken into account.
It's extremely difficult when on one hand you're trying to attract the best world players into this country and on the other hand not showing any tolerance when a breach is made - whatever Suarez has done in other countries this is his first offence here and first ever for verbal misdemenour. Evra has been in trouble for verbals on several occasions.
It wasn't a case of you can't do that here, it was a case of you can't say that here.
comment by FSB (U11355)
posted 1 hour, 48 minutes ago
JB, personally I would think that cultural differences should be considered to an extent. However, how do you quantify the 'extent'? There are cultural differences that you need to be aware of when you visit other countries and if the body applying the rules deems that ignorance is no excuse then I guess there's no argument.Add Comment
===
So finally you accept Suarez and his actions have no place in our society
| Complain about this Comment
comment by CONCERNED EVERTONIAN (U7886)
Phil,
you are complaining about which comment?
None. just couldn't be fused to delete what i copied by by mistake.
He finally admitted defeat
It took a while,he got there eventually.
Sign in if you want to comment
FOR THE GREATER GOOD
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posted on 6/1/12
JB, to be honest I would not go as far as to say that Suarez did not intend to cause offence although there is sufficient cultural ambiguity to suggest that its entirely possible that he didn't. The fact is that only he knows.
Ignorance is no excuse so he has learnt a lesson
What I find ridiculous is the number of rival fans who are now tarring the club and its fans as racists, when Suarez himself has not even been branded racist.
I am interested in drawing comparisons with other people's views on what constitues racism in a wider context to see whether they really have the right to take the moral high ground with such sanctimony on this issue.
posted on 6/1/12
Judaism is a religion but Jews are one of those groups described as ethnoreligious because they can't be difined soley as one or the other.
posted on 6/1/12
FSB - forgetting the obvious 'tribal' reasons why football fans have stuck the boot into LFC regarding this issue.
I think what's totally exacerbated the whole saga (way beyond the original act by Suarez) is the way LFC have dealt with the issue.
From the start they looked to question the character of Evra, rather than say nothing & let the case take it's course, they were on the front foot from the off.
Post verdict, the initial statement was hasty, poorly thought out & confrontational. Followed swiflty by the crass T shirts - people started feeling uncomfortable with their stance imo, as at this point they were openly defending a man who'd been convicted of racial abuse. It left a bad taste.
After everyone had chance to digest the report, it appeared that despite not being a crime worthy of the death penalty, the man was patently guilty as charged. However, LFC decided to launch another tirade at the FA & all concerned whilst denying their right to appeal. Which was both transparent & again quite distasteful.
The PR imo has been shocking, they could have turned it around & gained respect by acting in a more considered & far less confrontational manner.
Suarez himself will get some abuse on his return (notably at OT) but it'll soon subside, as I don't think there's many out there who consider him to be a racist.
posted on 6/1/12
FSB - I don't know whether he intended to cause offence or not either. As you say only he knows. He didn't start the dialogue but that is neither here nor there, if you come back with worse than you got and again we don't know what was said - you are open for whatever sanctions that brings. We only know what was reported as being said.
I think as the conversation was in a foreign language, we can't apply an English ruler to the language, intent or interpretation of the words used. We can however apply an English ruler to the behaviour. We can say that players can't converse in their mother tongue on the field. As it appears that racist comments are top of the no-no list, we can provide education in what is acceptable in this country.
I noticed yesterday the FA took no action over one of their own for sending racist text messages - they too need some educating it seems.
posted on 6/1/12
Judaism is a religion but Jews are one of those groups described as ethnoreligious because they can't be difined soley as one or the other.
----------------------------------------------
Israel is a country, there's many Israelis that aren't Jews.
Pedantic comments aside, the Hitler question is interesting as he was brought up as a Catholic & there's those who hold the view that he was merely continuing the history of Christian persecution of the Jews, rather than 'inventing' genocide.
posted on 6/1/12
TB - you're right, the club haven't handled it in the best way and whoever they have in PR need sacking.
posted on 6/1/12
Jews have certain physical similarities and this is one of the reasons why there is an ethnicity component to it. Most can trace back to one single line and they are included as a group with protection under the Race Relations Act - along with Sikhs who share a similar ethnoreligious grouping.
posted on 6/1/12
TB, I can't disagree with much of that I'm afraid. It has been handled very poorly. Far too agressive from the start. Surely a more conciliatory tone would have been more appropriate.
I personally think the 8 match ban is a bit harsh though. I'm very interested to see what happens in the JT case. I think there will be a disparity between the 2 judgements/punishments due to the FA's obvious wish not to harm the euro 2012 prospects as evidenced by their campaigning to reduce Rooney's ban. Will they punish JT if the courts find him not guilty? Is it fair to punish him again if the courts punish him?
posted on 6/1/12
TB, thats feasible re Hitler but he also had it in for the Slavs in a big way, which had no religious grounding, he just thought they were an inferior race.
posted on 6/1/12
JB, personally I would think that cultural differences should be considered to an extent. However, how do you quantify the 'extent'? There are cultural differences that you need to be aware of when you visit other countries and if the body applying the rules deems that ignorance is no excuse then I guess there's no argument.
posted on 6/1/12
FSB,
it took you a while,but you got there in the end.
posted on 6/1/12
FSB - I think this could end Terry's time in this country. I can't see how he's not going to get found guilty given the pretty clear video evidence. If the courts find him guilty then the FA will have to issue a massive ban, given the Suarez precedent. If he get's off, then they can close the case.
posted on 6/1/12
Concerned, plenty more battles ahead eh?
TB, its going to be interesting. I'll be back for some post verdict debate
posted on 6/1/12
Fsb, i am pretty sure there will be.
posted on 6/1/12
"personally I would think that cultural differences should be considered to an extent. However, how do you quantify the 'extent'?"
To me it's pretty clear cut when the conversation is in a foreign language. Had he said 'hey negro boy' for instance then he's deemed fully aware of what he's saying and it's easy to bring a verdict on that.
posted on 6/1/12
Up until this happened - I would have said a conversation in a shared foreign language would have no action taken other than a stern warning that it musn't occur again ie the cultural difference has been taken into account.
It's extremely difficult when on one hand you're trying to attract the best world players into this country and on the other hand not showing any tolerance when a breach is made - whatever Suarez has done in other countries this is his first offence here and first ever for verbal misdemenour. Evra has been in trouble for verbals on several occasions.
It wasn't a case of you can't do that here, it was a case of you can't say that here.
posted on 6/1/12
comment by FSB (U11355)
posted 1 hour, 48 minutes ago
JB, personally I would think that cultural differences should be considered to an extent. However, how do you quantify the 'extent'? There are cultural differences that you need to be aware of when you visit other countries and if the body applying the rules deems that ignorance is no excuse then I guess there's no argument.Add Comment
===
So finally you accept Suarez and his actions have no place in our society
| Complain about this Comment
comment by CONCERNED EVERTONIAN (U7886)
posted on 6/1/12
Phil,
you are complaining about which comment?
posted on 6/1/12
None. just couldn't be fused to delete what i copied by by mistake.
He finally admitted defeat
posted on 6/1/12
It took a while,he got there eventually.
posted on 6/1/12
I miss his ignorance
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