"I think a player with a different reputation, and if the opponent goes down and rolls around, could easily get a red card for that. Remember raising your hands now is a red card…"

I could have been. Doesn't make it right. I've given my opinion on the challenge, I don't think it was a yellow card offence any more than I think the Leeds defender should get a yellow card for attempting to kick Henry.

I'm only giving my opinion, which, I admit, I'm not basing on the rules of the game. There are plenty of challenges that get yellows that are perfectly justified by the laws of the game that I don't agree with.

I also don't think Henry got away without a booking because of his reputation, I think the ref didn't think it was a bookable offence because it was fairly innocuous really.

And I wouldn't agree that it was a professional foul, to me it looks like a clumsy lunge with no real forethought of whether he was going for ball or man, if he really just wanted to bring the player down why didn't he follow through with his leg to make sure the guy actually fell over? He barely even put him off his stride.

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Who cares. I couldn't see much wrong with the tackle anyway to be honest and besides about time we actually git a decision in our favour for once as referees have failed to give us stonewall penalties in at least 5 games in the past 6 weeks.

sigh You've no evidence that his reputation had anything to do with it. Yes it should have been a yellow, but how many times do we see week in week out Refs failing to book and/or send off players when they should have? If you're trying to claim that Henry is going to be given special dispensation during his spell at Arsenal then you're wrong.

Was it Lampard's reputation that prevented him getting a Red against Wolves? no, I doubt it was, and no one even suggested this was the case. it was jsut incompetent refereeing

. In fact, reputation is far more likely to work the other way, i.e. Drogba and Ronaldo were frequently accused of diving by referees when they had been legitimately fouled, based on their past reputations as serial divers. I'm also sure Joey Barton picks up his fair share of yellow cards based on his reputation alone.

I've never heard of a player getting away with a red card offence purely because of his standing in the game though.

JohnJenson - fair enough... you see it differently. I am genuinely surprised people are OK with it.

Jumping in, tackle from behind, no intention of going for the ball... even you think he wasn't sure what he was going for...

The fact he barely put him off his stride isn't really here nor there is it? Or do you believe a player needs to throw himself on the ground to ensure there is a decision made? If players want to stay on their feet it will be very difficult to knock them down... players nowadays often feel the contact and go to ground (some very easily). He has stayed on his feet because his team are losing and he wants to keep going... if he's in the box and that same challenge comes in the player goes to ground and gets a penalty. Yet it's the same tackle!

Much ado about nothing. Watching the game i thought the better team won, but we didn't disgrace ourselves either.

Whether Henry fouled or not is irrelevant, it had little or no effect on the outcome - i personally don't think it was that bad - possibly a free kick at worst. Did he get off because of his reputation, i honestly don't think so. I think we're clutching at straws.

For me i'd rather we now concentrate on the league - far more important to us in my opinion.

Christthegunner – I don’t have evidence it was his reputation you are right. I am suggesting that could be the reason. What is your explanation? Referees incompetence? Is that any better?
You are saying I am wrong to claim Henry will get special dispensation – yet he already has. You already accept he got away with it and it should have been a yellow.
I’m not actually having a go at Henry here – I’m just curious as to opinions on how referees come to decisions.
Lampard didn’t get a red against Wolves – I’m sure that was his reputation that worked for him. Had it been Joe Blow who made the challenge they would have been off.
As for Ronaldo I’m sure there were times referees didn’t give decisions because they thought it was a dive – just as I know there were numerous occasions he conned the referee and got the decision. That doesn’t disprove my point? I’m saying reputation is a factor when it shouldn’t be. You are accepting it is with Ronaldo… then saying it doesn’t for Henry…

He seemed to go for the ball if you ask me. I think he realised he let the ball get away early too easily, and tried to get it back a bit desperately, not try and cause a foul.

And too your previous argument, that tackle wasn't a red card offense, so by saying that if you gave a red card to that there would be loads of red cards, it would be because you were changing the rules, not because of anything else

L11dsu4ever - I’m not commenting on the game really, this was more just a general point about reputations as a whole and the effect on referees that’s all.
I’m not claiming it affected the game at all – just it strikes me as odd how the incident is ignored yet other fouls– which have equal little bearing on the result- are blown up to be massive incidents.
Is it just whether the media takes an interest or not? Seems strange.

Arsenal_49 - precisely the answer I didn't want. Yuo don't care if a decision is right, just whether it goes for you or not?

"Or do you believe a player needs to throw himself on the ground to ensure there is a decision made?"

A decision was made. The ref played advantage. If there hadn't been an advantage the ref would've stopped play and given Leeds a free kick. Have you watched it again? Jumping in is a little bit of an overstatement. As for tackle from behind that isn't actually against the rules, FIFA took the phrase out of the laws in 2005. And as for intent to get the ball that is surely subjective? You think he went for the man I think he just stuck his leg out with no real thought at all. I'm not even sure there is any legislation in the law for the referees to judge a tackle on intent anyway?

If the Leeds player had gone down under the challenge it would have been a foul and nothing more (exactly the same as it was even though he didn't go down.) If he'd rolled around to make it look worse than it was then I'm sure you'd be the first person to complain that he was trying to get Henry booked, as you've made it quite clear you're against that practice.

O.P. after reviewing this incident a number of times......

http://www.footytube.com/video/arsenal-v-leeds-united-101377?ref=wv_relbox (11m.10s)

I am struggling to see how this falls under anywhere near violent conduct. I am a firm believer of Referee's applying logic and wisdom in these instances and find it somewhat pedantic to suggest that he be suspended for something it seems the receiving player hadn't even noticed initially as he left with the ball. A yellow card at absolute max would suffice for this

Slightly deviating off topic looking at a different example I am one of those that believe for e.g. that Kompany could have simply been given a yellow for his challenge on Nani, not because it didn't deserve a red as I believe City can't have many complaints, but because I think he could have applied a little more wisdom in knowing that there will be over-committed challenges in the derby natured atmosphere, also seeing as it was the his first offence in the game and he didn't actually catch the player albeit because of Nani's athleticism.

It is this type of wisdom from referees that I like to see both as a neutral and supporter, as in a role reversal I'd have been dumbfounded to see a Leeds player leave the field for such a small action.

It is very frustrating seeing referees miss out on spotting alot more relevant and serious offences these days (see Yaya's raised hand on Mata) whilst at the same time seeing players sent off wrongly due to lack of applying wisdom or being too black and white with the letter of the law (e.g. RVP red card against Barca, even though he struck the ball less than 1s after the ref's whistle blew for offside bearing in mind he was actually onside, at the Nou Camp in front of 90K+ roaring fans).

Taking your overall point about players with Rep escaping the law though, I have seen this occur, and do believe it is extremely unfair on the opposing teams.
Last month Messi luckily escaped a second yellow against R.Madrid causing uproar at the Bernabau. Now he is without doubt the Worlds best player at the moment and well deserving of his recent 3rd successive Ballon D'or, however its exactly that accolade that won him some leniency from the ref in a match which could have great influence on the title at the end of the season.

Back to Henry, I see no reason why he would deserve to have been dismissed yesterday, however I do believe there are instances where reputation does buy favouritism and it is indeed wrong.

Apologies for going off topic, those are just the examples that first came to mind.

Valentine
Watch it again… do you really think he’s going for the ball? He’s a long way off it if he does! Of course you realise it can still be a red even if he does go for the ball… if you go for the ball and miss it and kick the player it can still be a sending off. If you go for the ball and get it it can still be a red! As a neutral watching it I have to say my interpretation of his intent is different to yours.
You say the tackle wasn’t a red card offense – but I’m saying it could be, and it could quite easily be. If the referee sees it as a kick out – from a player angry at just losing the ball… with no intent of getting the ball – it is a red card. Not changing the rules – just applying them!

Yes, that type of tackle wasn't a red card offence, I don't believe he was intending to foul, it wasn't reckless (his studs were to the ground and he only brushed the back of his foot). That is not a red card offence. It was not a dangerous tackle, so while it would have been a foul, I'm not even sure it was a yellow.Having watched it again, I'm sure it wasn't

Ozzy – thanks for your response!
If it is seem as a kick out – which it quite easily could be then it could be a red card. Remember raising hands and shoving someone is considered violent conduct… even though in everyday life you would struggle to describe some shoves as violent.

As for the player – If you think player reaction is important then surely the Leeds players asking about Henry when Arshavin is booked is testament to the fact they believe it to be worthy of a booking? Do you think a player has to roll around to get a decision? He stayed on his feet because his team is chasing the game and it’s in his interest to keep going… just as players go to ground in the box because a penalty is in their interest.
Watching the incident again it is quite clearly a yellow… yet some fans are claiming it isn’t even that! If you think it was a yellow then my main question remains unanswered. Why wasn’t he booked?

It was Henry’s night don’t get me wrong… and it was a fantastic day for him, Arsenal, and English football. But that shouldn’t come into it should it? If something is a yellow card tackle, it is a yellow card. First minute or last… big player or debutant. A few years ago wasn’t it Vidic that should have been sent off in the first few minutes of a cup final – but wasn’t. The referee perhaps thinking about the spectacle of the match – rather than the rules of the game in that instance. Is that right?

The Kompany tackle is difficult to judge… I think it’s harsh, but to be honest I don’t think it’s individual decisions that annoy people it’s the lack of consistency. If something was always a red then people would understand and not do it.

When referees show “common sense” rather than applying the rules it just creates inconsistency. It is easier for referees if they have to just obey the laws of the game… asking them to have an input, or to consider the showpiece of the match – I think is wrong and just adding extra pressure.

Had it been a Leeds player on Henry – I firmly believe it would have been a booking at least.
As for some incidents being more relevant or serious… this again goes back to my point. People have shrugged it off… but had the player gone down and rolled around… had the Leeds players uniformly lambasted the referee and made more of it then would it have been seen as more important? Getting on with it as Leeds did has made it a non-issue… when watching Barcelona though, any foul will see a huge reaction from the player and teammates and it will create an issue.

How many times have we seen fouls replayed and commented on by analysts… not because of the foul itself but because of the reaction it has created. A foul in the corner at the end of the game is a nothing event… or it is a major talking point… not because of the foul itself but because of the reaction it causes.
As for Henry – I’m not attacking him personally here… some of the comments suggest I have been, I genuinely think he is superb – I just don’t think it fair that he gets preferential treatment… from referees or the media. Had it been a different figure I think more would have been made of it. Had Rooney kicked out it would be “the good and th bad” side of his game on show. Someone like Di Canio he would have been criticized for not controlling himself… even though the incidents could be exactly the same! That’s just wrong.

It’s good to see Henry back though – will be interesting to see how he is used throughout his time here.

"I just don’t think it fair that he gets preferential treatment… from referees or the media."

I like the way this one incident makes you think he gets preferential treatment from the refs and the media. Maybe the fact is that you're actually in the minority and most people don't actually think it was that bad a tackle and it's not really worth worrying about?

JohnJensons goal - you said it was a yellow didn't you? If he doesn't get a yellow does that not mean he has been given preferential treatment to others who would have been booked?

Whether I'm in the majority or minority isn't important... I'm arguing about principles here not popularity.

I think you've missed what I'm saying. I'm not having a dig at Arsenal or Henry... it's more a question mark over refereeing and media bias.

MrMortimer, I get what your saying, there is definately a lack of consistency in the game these days, and to be honest this inconsistency will remain so as long as referees are allowed to 'judge' situations whether it be on a small or large scale.
As long as video technology is kept out of Football I actually think it is too hard to keep refereeing within a strict set of parameters and eliminate referees applying their understanding of the laws to scenarios they may encounter. There will always be grey areas as there is no such thing as a perfect referee. Obviously the argument stands for FIFA to introduce goalline technology (which I think we need) and video review for offsides etc (not too sure about that 1 as it negates the job of a linesman) as these are definitive aspects of the game, i.e. its either completely over the line or not, its either offside or not. However the more subjective areas such as determining the extent of a foul, or the even more inconsistent judgement of handballs will always have some essence of greyness, as it seems not just refereeing is inconsistent, but our understanding of football in different worldly regions differs also.

For e.g. taking the Prem and La Liga into account simply because they are the 2 most popular imo, both regions differ in their general consensus of what is a foul. Thierry would probably have been penalised for his outstretched leg with a yellow card in spain as their tolerance thresholds are way lower than here in Britain and this resonates into how they play the game. It is more acceptable in their views to act on this and simulate in order to get players booked. It is also more acceptable over there for fans and managers to wave imaginary cards, as oppose to here in Britain where we are strongly against such acts and frown upon those who try it here. Some may believe that this no nonsense approach by refs in Spain allow players to be more protected, but imo this is milked and thus the less technical sides have next to no chance against the best teams

On the flipside there is the argument that Football here in Britain is not protective enough, as referees allow way too much to pass by and leaves teams having to adapt more physically possibly sacrificing the technical aspects of the game. An example of this flipside can be seen in Howard Webb's refereeing of the WC 2010 Final where he allowed De Jong's Leg to chest challenge on Xabi Alonso to go without a Red. This is an extreme case though of wanting to keep the match 11vs11 at all costs however it is somewhat reflective of the British nature of his refereeing. There may have been uproar if Spain didnt go onto win the match.

Apologies for deviating once again, but the points I tried to make were that sadly there are inconsistencies in refereeing today in judging situations like yesterday and unless there is:
1) a complete overhaul and retraining of referees by a Universal body to abide by a strict single letter of the law where no subjectivities apply, or 2)Technological advances which help decisions to be challenged in match to possibly remove inconsistencies

....there will always be varying opinions between referees as to what is deemed a foul, handball, wreckless/committed challenge or violent conduct

"JohnJensons goal - you said it was a yellow didn't you?"

No I said a yellow would be harsh.

He barely touched him.

Ah OK... well the general mood on the thread is that it was a yellow not a red. My point still stands up.

and Twice as nice - you don't have to even touch them for it to be a red, let alone a yellow don't forget.

"Ah OK... well the general mood on the thread is that it was a yellow not a red. My point still stands up."

I'm not sure it does. The fact is you have no evidence whatsoever for any media or referee bias. Nor can you prove that the foul was definitely a bookable offence. All that happened was a player commited a foul, the referee decided it wasn't that bad and the game went on.

refs make baqd decisions, they are not all bias (outside serie A)

honestly though, Kompanys red card at the weekend? these things happen si?

How has this reached 70+ comments?

Henry's tackle was a bit of a lunge, he probably should have been booked for it but I think the ref just dropped the ball cos he was busy booking Arshavin for his foul.

Not really much of an issue the way I see it.