TOOR you found me out... lol
"I’m sure some people were surprised at how many penalties were actually given though you are right on that front. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly
And that is essence of the so called myth re OT. People would be suprised at the amount of pens that are conceded at OT because they are led to beleive that visiting teams get little or nothing....
As for the assertion that UTD get more favourable decisions than all the other big teams I suppose we will have to wait for the FA report or the Panorama Investigation.....
Wonder when that will be....
Exactly
“And that is essence of the so called myth re OT. People would be suprised at the amount of pens that are conceded at OT because they are led to beleive that visiting teams get little or nothing....”
No – the essence of the myth is favourable decisions - again the statistics do not prove or disprove that.
I think there is a separate discussion to be had on the media – and how they present things.
For example the media might focus on two footed tackles – and then suddenly it may seem that there are a run on these and people are jumping in more than they used to. In fact the reality is they are jumping in the same as they always have, it’s just that the media picks up on it more – so when it gets more air-time people perceive it to be a bigger issue than it was before.
If there are suddenly 5 red cards shown in the space of two weeks – does that prove there are more two footed tackles? No – it just proves the refs are showing more red cards for two footed tackles. There could be less two footed tackles which actually occur – but the fact it is now a high profile issue means the rate of it happening to it being punished with a red card is much higher.
The same with certain players – Joey Barton for example – if he commits 2 fouls, and both those fouls are shown on match of the day the public perception will be he is a dirty player – whereas another player – Steven Gerrard, might commit 5 fouls but if they aren’t shown on MOTD the public perception will be different.
The same is true of players that dive – Bale has a reputation for it at Spurs, and has been booked for it more than a number of other players… does that mean he dives more? No – it just means he has been punished more. The public may believe he is more of a diver, and more likely to dive – but the stats don’t show that, since they don’t show how often players dive and aren’t booked. Exactly the same with penalties at OT.
“As for the assertion that UTD get more favourable decisions than all the other big teams I suppose we will have to wait for the FA report or the Panorama Investigation.....”
I don’t think we do…
I think the events of this season have shown that an FA judgment does not mean anything – it doesn’t have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt even!
As I have said before – I think this issue is so complex, there are so many variables, that it will be near impossible to actually get a formula that can actually prove it one way or the other.
As I have said before – I think this issue is so complex, there are so many variables, that it will be near impossible to actually get a formula that can actually prove it one way or the other.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
With the arguments in this article so staunch in the belief that the possibility of favorable UTD decision inbalances at OT exists one would think that it wouldnt be that impossible to prove
The OP at least tried to offer some data to counter the penalty imbalance PART of the myth and although it couldnt counter the myth because of missing variables, at least it offered some hard data that UTD's OT conceded penalty stats in the time frame mentioned were unremarkable compared to other PL teams.
At the end of the day it boils down to peoples perceptions and what they want to beleive. I beleive utd get dodgy favorable decisions at OT but no more than any other team gets when they are playing at home.
IN my opinion most teams leave OT with nothing because they are beaten by the better team and the stats for the most part will back this up...
“With the arguments in this article so staunch in the belief that the possibility of favorable UTD decision inbalances at OT exists one would think that it wouldnt be that impossible to prove”
There’s a clear distinction between a possibility of something existing and proof of it existing.
Even the most staunch of atheists will accept that it is possible for a God to exist – but they just think as it hasn’t been proven it shouldn’t be believed in.
It is quite possible for United to get favourable decisions at OT – it is quite another to prove it. The evidence would need to take into account interpretation, game management by referees, and a number of other subjective or interpretive factors. Also it would have to take into account every single decision – down to throw ins… the data just currently isn’t accessible .
“The OP at least tried to offer some data to counter the penalty imbalance PART of the myth and although it couldnt counter the myth because of missing variables, at least it offered some hard data that UTD's OT conceded penalty stats in the time frame mentioned were unremarkable compared to other PL teams.”
Yes the OP offered some data – but unfortunately it doesn’t actually achieve what he thought it did. The penalty statistic was offered as proof that the myth is false… now this is a hard fact he has given as evidence, yet he has come out with the wrong conclusion – now consider how difficult it will be to calculate and reach a conclusion for things which are not so easy to measure – 50/50 decisions for example.
Yes the data showed that United gave away more penalties over a 6 year period than a lot of other teams. It doesn’t show any more than that – and most importantly it doesn’t actually address the myth. You have accepted this yourself even though some of the original posters argued otherwise.
“At the end of the day it boils down to peoples perceptions and what they want to beleive. I beleive utd get dodgy favorable decisions at OT but no more than any other team gets when they are playing at home.”
Fair play for accepting United do get dodgy decisions at home – I know a lot of fans (from a range of clubs) wouldn’t even admit that. You believe it is no more than other sides, just as a lot of people believe it “evens itself up” over a season. There is no evidence to back this up, it could well be a myth – perhaps even bigger than the one about United getting favourable decisions.
“IN my opinion most teams leave OT with nothing because they are beaten by the better team and the stats for the most part will back this up...”
I agree most teams leave OT without points because United are a better side. United have better players than most other sides, and are better managed than a great number of visiting teams.
I’m not sure the stats can back that up really as again the stats are limited in what they can actually tell you, but it is a valid opinion nonetheless.
The fact United are a better side does not mean that the referees do not favour them though. Barcelona are without question one of the best sides in the world – I think it is fairly unanimous that they get decisions other sides wouldn’t though. Again going back to statistics – they can be extremely flattering if opponents are on bookings so can’t make tackles, or a man down because of a harsh sending off… if you’re playing against 10 men then your passing stats should be higher than if a full quota of opponents are able to chase you down. The stats might then show Joe Blogs has a passing accuracy of 95%, whilst Paul Scholes playing on the side with 10 men might have a passing accuracy of only 85%. This does not prove Blogs is better at passing than Scholes.
"It is quite possible for United to get favourable decisions at OT – it is quite another to prove it. The evidence would need to take into account interpretation, game management by referees, and a number of other subjective or interpretive factors. Also it would have to take into account every single decision – down to throw ins… the data just currently isn’t accessible "
"As I have said before – I think this issue is so complex, there are so many variables, that it will be near impossible to actually get a formula that can actually prove it one way or the other."
So we are left with a myth that cannot be proved or disproved and until someone takes on the challenge the myth like most myths will be open and subject to peoples personal beliefs and biases...
Personally I dont beleive UTD get more favorable home decisions than any other PL teams.
The refereeing at Old Trafford will never fail to amaze me.
Anyone who thinks United don't get favourable decisions at Old Trafford needs to pull the wool from their eyes.
Offside.......Dive........
Result:
Penalty to United + Red Card.
Nearly as good as Nanis: Dive + Deliberate Hand ball against Spurs followed by no booking for Nani (for either action) followed by Nani rolling the ball into an empty net.
Sorry but a fact isnt a myth.
Nearly as good as Nanis: Dive + Deliberate Hand ball against Spurs followed by no booking for Nani (for either action) followed by Nani rolling the ball into an empty net.
....................................
The only incident I remember that sounds anything like that is when Nani was fouled in the box and the referee gave nothing for it. He grabbed the ball with his hands and ended up with Gomes so the referee played advantage. Gomes then decided to let Nani score as he clearly doesn't understand the advantage rule...
Only a complete idiot could use an example of a United player being fouled in the box and not given a penalty as some kind of proof of a conspiracy!
..........................
Sorry but a fact isnt a myth.
.........................
I assume we are talking about the many favourable decisions Chelsea get, what was it 2 offside goals you needed to be gifted just to beat little old Wigan?
“So we are left with a myth that cannot be proved or disproved and until someone takes on the challenge the myth like most myths will be open and subject to peoples personal beliefs and biases...”
This is exactly what we have been saying all along Filters – the OP was trying to prove the myth to be false. He has failed to do that as the stats given are inadequate – you have agreed with this. The myth is not proven to be true, equally it is not proven to be false – it is open to interpretation. I’m sure a vast amount of fans will be able to keep their personal prejudices out until at least after they have considered the evidence available to them – though as we have seen on this board there are some fans who will deny it all and think they have proven it false (and claim anyone who disagrees is an ABU)… just as there will be some fans who will quote anecdotal evidence and think they have proven it to be true (and claim anyone who disagrees is blinded by club loyalty).
You pays your money and takes your choice – as they say. I do hope there are some football fans that can look beyond club loyalty though and see the bigger picture.
“Personally I dont beleive UTD get more favorable home decisions than any other PL teams.”
You’re entitled to that belief… I think the hope that it evens itself out and every team gets the same amount of favourable decisions is a bigger myth than the one against OT actually. Having said that – I don’t think there is a pre-meditated bias towards United, and in no way question the integrity of the refs.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
is that your defence in court?
Use the banana defence!
ole swears by it!
members of the jury are hardly likely to believe he slipped on a banana skin and ended up on top of the woman as he walked home alone are they?
ole
If you so wish to discuss my personal life, I suggest you do so elsewhere. You could even create a thread in my honour if you like.
However, since this article was created there has been an undeniable amount of evidence further proving that United get far more than their fair share of dodgy decisions.
whatever. just don't come down and trash our city again with your smelly ginger mates just because your own club is going out of existence.
Again,
Deflect, deny.
If you wish to discuss other topics you should create threads to do so.
Anyway, i'm offski.
No point sharing an opinion with some who resorts to personal insults and changes the subject when unable to contribute to the point of the article.
If you so wish to discuss my personal life, I suggest you do so elsewhere. You could even create a thread in my honour if you like.
................................
I would suggest it would be a very empty thread... there is only so much you can write about an overweight ginger with a penchant for deep fried mars bars...
It's difficult to say in the last two games referees have given United preferential treatment. What does need to be looked at however, is the amount of cheating, diving etc. It is difficult for referees to be confident in a decision when they have Ashley Young diving all over the place, or Suarez looking like he's been shot when somebody has the audacity to touch him.
This has added to the many many mistakes referees have made over the season. Referees need help and the first course of action should be retrospective 1 game bans for diving.
Furthermore more evidence yesterday that we're in desperate need for goal line technology when the referee stands right in front of the incident and can't see the ball didn't cross the line. What chance have you got then?
Spurs could definitely feel hard done by in that game as decisions seemed to go against them the whole game. I wanted Chelsea to win the game as I think we play better against Chelsea than the pace of Spurs, however I couldn't help feel sorry for them, the way the referee made mistakes time and time again. Spurs always seem to be on the end of these terrible goal line decisions and I'm sure you'll all remember the Mendes 'goal' that was around a yard over the Man United goal line but wasn't given.
shay given was the only 'cheater' on the pitch yesterday, yet i haven't heard anything about his shameful actions.
Ah the old deflect tactic. For crying out loud open your eyes. This isn't an attack on United.
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The myth about pens at Old Trafford
Page 22 of 25
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posted on 4/4/12
TOOR you found me out... lol
posted on 5/4/12
"I’m sure some people were surprised at how many penalties were actually given though you are right on that front. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly
And that is essence of the so called myth re OT. People would be suprised at the amount of pens that are conceded at OT because they are led to beleive that visiting teams get little or nothing....
As for the assertion that UTD get more favourable decisions than all the other big teams I suppose we will have to wait for the FA report or the Panorama Investigation.....
Wonder when that will be....
posted on 5/4/12
Exactly
“And that is essence of the so called myth re OT. People would be suprised at the amount of pens that are conceded at OT because they are led to beleive that visiting teams get little or nothing....”
No – the essence of the myth is favourable decisions - again the statistics do not prove or disprove that.
I think there is a separate discussion to be had on the media – and how they present things.
For example the media might focus on two footed tackles – and then suddenly it may seem that there are a run on these and people are jumping in more than they used to. In fact the reality is they are jumping in the same as they always have, it’s just that the media picks up on it more – so when it gets more air-time people perceive it to be a bigger issue than it was before.
If there are suddenly 5 red cards shown in the space of two weeks – does that prove there are more two footed tackles? No – it just proves the refs are showing more red cards for two footed tackles. There could be less two footed tackles which actually occur – but the fact it is now a high profile issue means the rate of it happening to it being punished with a red card is much higher.
The same with certain players – Joey Barton for example – if he commits 2 fouls, and both those fouls are shown on match of the day the public perception will be he is a dirty player – whereas another player – Steven Gerrard, might commit 5 fouls but if they aren’t shown on MOTD the public perception will be different.
The same is true of players that dive – Bale has a reputation for it at Spurs, and has been booked for it more than a number of other players… does that mean he dives more? No – it just means he has been punished more. The public may believe he is more of a diver, and more likely to dive – but the stats don’t show that, since they don’t show how often players dive and aren’t booked. Exactly the same with penalties at OT.
“As for the assertion that UTD get more favourable decisions than all the other big teams I suppose we will have to wait for the FA report or the Panorama Investigation.....”
I don’t think we do…
I think the events of this season have shown that an FA judgment does not mean anything – it doesn’t have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt even!
As I have said before – I think this issue is so complex, there are so many variables, that it will be near impossible to actually get a formula that can actually prove it one way or the other.
posted on 5/4/12
As I have said before – I think this issue is so complex, there are so many variables, that it will be near impossible to actually get a formula that can actually prove it one way or the other.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
With the arguments in this article so staunch in the belief that the possibility of favorable UTD decision inbalances at OT exists one would think that it wouldnt be that impossible to prove
The OP at least tried to offer some data to counter the penalty imbalance PART of the myth and although it couldnt counter the myth because of missing variables, at least it offered some hard data that UTD's OT conceded penalty stats in the time frame mentioned were unremarkable compared to other PL teams.
At the end of the day it boils down to peoples perceptions and what they want to beleive. I beleive utd get dodgy favorable decisions at OT but no more than any other team gets when they are playing at home.
IN my opinion most teams leave OT with nothing because they are beaten by the better team and the stats for the most part will back this up...
posted on 5/4/12
“With the arguments in this article so staunch in the belief that the possibility of favorable UTD decision inbalances at OT exists one would think that it wouldnt be that impossible to prove”
There’s a clear distinction between a possibility of something existing and proof of it existing.
Even the most staunch of atheists will accept that it is possible for a God to exist – but they just think as it hasn’t been proven it shouldn’t be believed in.
It is quite possible for United to get favourable decisions at OT – it is quite another to prove it. The evidence would need to take into account interpretation, game management by referees, and a number of other subjective or interpretive factors. Also it would have to take into account every single decision – down to throw ins… the data just currently isn’t accessible .
“The OP at least tried to offer some data to counter the penalty imbalance PART of the myth and although it couldnt counter the myth because of missing variables, at least it offered some hard data that UTD's OT conceded penalty stats in the time frame mentioned were unremarkable compared to other PL teams.”
Yes the OP offered some data – but unfortunately it doesn’t actually achieve what he thought it did. The penalty statistic was offered as proof that the myth is false… now this is a hard fact he has given as evidence, yet he has come out with the wrong conclusion – now consider how difficult it will be to calculate and reach a conclusion for things which are not so easy to measure – 50/50 decisions for example.
Yes the data showed that United gave away more penalties over a 6 year period than a lot of other teams. It doesn’t show any more than that – and most importantly it doesn’t actually address the myth. You have accepted this yourself even though some of the original posters argued otherwise.
“At the end of the day it boils down to peoples perceptions and what they want to beleive. I beleive utd get dodgy favorable decisions at OT but no more than any other team gets when they are playing at home.”
Fair play for accepting United do get dodgy decisions at home – I know a lot of fans (from a range of clubs) wouldn’t even admit that. You believe it is no more than other sides, just as a lot of people believe it “evens itself up” over a season. There is no evidence to back this up, it could well be a myth – perhaps even bigger than the one about United getting favourable decisions.
“IN my opinion most teams leave OT with nothing because they are beaten by the better team and the stats for the most part will back this up...”
I agree most teams leave OT without points because United are a better side. United have better players than most other sides, and are better managed than a great number of visiting teams.
I’m not sure the stats can back that up really as again the stats are limited in what they can actually tell you, but it is a valid opinion nonetheless.
The fact United are a better side does not mean that the referees do not favour them though. Barcelona are without question one of the best sides in the world – I think it is fairly unanimous that they get decisions other sides wouldn’t though. Again going back to statistics – they can be extremely flattering if opponents are on bookings so can’t make tackles, or a man down because of a harsh sending off… if you’re playing against 10 men then your passing stats should be higher than if a full quota of opponents are able to chase you down. The stats might then show Joe Blogs has a passing accuracy of 95%, whilst Paul Scholes playing on the side with 10 men might have a passing accuracy of only 85%. This does not prove Blogs is better at passing than Scholes.
posted on 5/4/12
"It is quite possible for United to get favourable decisions at OT – it is quite another to prove it. The evidence would need to take into account interpretation, game management by referees, and a number of other subjective or interpretive factors. Also it would have to take into account every single decision – down to throw ins… the data just currently isn’t accessible "
"As I have said before – I think this issue is so complex, there are so many variables, that it will be near impossible to actually get a formula that can actually prove it one way or the other."
So we are left with a myth that cannot be proved or disproved and until someone takes on the challenge the myth like most myths will be open and subject to peoples personal beliefs and biases...
Personally I dont beleive UTD get more favorable home decisions than any other PL teams.
posted on 8/4/12
The refereeing at Old Trafford will never fail to amaze me.
Anyone who thinks United don't get favourable decisions at Old Trafford needs to pull the wool from their eyes.
posted on 8/4/12
Offside.......Dive........
Result:
Penalty to United + Red Card.
Nearly as good as Nanis: Dive + Deliberate Hand ball against Spurs followed by no booking for Nani (for either action) followed by Nani rolling the ball into an empty net.
posted on 8/4/12
Sorry but a fact isnt a myth.
posted on 9/4/12
Nearly as good as Nanis: Dive + Deliberate Hand ball against Spurs followed by no booking for Nani (for either action) followed by Nani rolling the ball into an empty net.
....................................
The only incident I remember that sounds anything like that is when Nani was fouled in the box and the referee gave nothing for it. He grabbed the ball with his hands and ended up with Gomes so the referee played advantage. Gomes then decided to let Nani score as he clearly doesn't understand the advantage rule...
Only a complete idiot could use an example of a United player being fouled in the box and not given a penalty as some kind of proof of a conspiracy!
..........................
Sorry but a fact isnt a myth.
.........................
I assume we are talking about the many favourable decisions Chelsea get, what was it 2 offside goals you needed to be gifted just to beat little old Wigan?
posted on 10/4/12
“So we are left with a myth that cannot be proved or disproved and until someone takes on the challenge the myth like most myths will be open and subject to peoples personal beliefs and biases...”
This is exactly what we have been saying all along Filters – the OP was trying to prove the myth to be false. He has failed to do that as the stats given are inadequate – you have agreed with this. The myth is not proven to be true, equally it is not proven to be false – it is open to interpretation. I’m sure a vast amount of fans will be able to keep their personal prejudices out until at least after they have considered the evidence available to them – though as we have seen on this board there are some fans who will deny it all and think they have proven it false (and claim anyone who disagrees is an ABU)… just as there will be some fans who will quote anecdotal evidence and think they have proven it to be true (and claim anyone who disagrees is blinded by club loyalty).
You pays your money and takes your choice – as they say. I do hope there are some football fans that can look beyond club loyalty though and see the bigger picture.
“Personally I dont beleive UTD get more favorable home decisions than any other PL teams.”
You’re entitled to that belief… I think the hope that it evens itself out and every team gets the same amount of favourable decisions is a bigger myth than the one against OT actually. Having said that – I don’t think there is a pre-meditated bias towards United, and in no way question the integrity of the refs.
posted on 15/4/12
Yet again.......
posted on 15/4/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/4/12
Deflect, deny......
posted on 15/4/12
is that your defence in court?
posted on 15/4/12
Use the banana defence!
ole swears by it!
posted on 15/4/12
members of the jury are hardly likely to believe he slipped on a banana skin and ended up on top of the woman as he walked home alone are they?
posted on 15/4/12
ole
If you so wish to discuss my personal life, I suggest you do so elsewhere. You could even create a thread in my honour if you like.
However, since this article was created there has been an undeniable amount of evidence further proving that United get far more than their fair share of dodgy decisions.
posted on 15/4/12
whatever. just don't come down and trash our city again with your smelly ginger mates just because your own club is going out of existence.
posted on 15/4/12
Again,
Deflect, deny.
If you wish to discuss other topics you should create threads to do so.
Anyway, i'm offski.
No point sharing an opinion with some who resorts to personal insults and changes the subject when unable to contribute to the point of the article.
posted on 15/4/12
good riddance.
posted on 15/4/12
If you so wish to discuss my personal life, I suggest you do so elsewhere. You could even create a thread in my honour if you like.
................................
I would suggest it would be a very empty thread... there is only so much you can write about an overweight ginger with a penchant for deep fried mars bars...
posted on 16/4/12
It's difficult to say in the last two games referees have given United preferential treatment. What does need to be looked at however, is the amount of cheating, diving etc. It is difficult for referees to be confident in a decision when they have Ashley Young diving all over the place, or Suarez looking like he's been shot when somebody has the audacity to touch him.
This has added to the many many mistakes referees have made over the season. Referees need help and the first course of action should be retrospective 1 game bans for diving.
Furthermore more evidence yesterday that we're in desperate need for goal line technology when the referee stands right in front of the incident and can't see the ball didn't cross the line. What chance have you got then?
Spurs could definitely feel hard done by in that game as decisions seemed to go against them the whole game. I wanted Chelsea to win the game as I think we play better against Chelsea than the pace of Spurs, however I couldn't help feel sorry for them, the way the referee made mistakes time and time again. Spurs always seem to be on the end of these terrible goal line decisions and I'm sure you'll all remember the Mendes 'goal' that was around a yard over the Man United goal line but wasn't given.
posted on 16/4/12
shay given was the only 'cheater' on the pitch yesterday, yet i haven't heard anything about his shameful actions.
posted on 16/4/12
Ah the old deflect tactic. For crying out loud open your eyes. This isn't an attack on United.
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