This is ridiculous also.
------------------
how so?
a rather unsubstantiated comment there... smacks not wanting to debate and idiocy some might say.
@There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
I think the myth and Jol's original point is that NO teams get penalties at Old Trafford when the article clear shows they do.
I think you're twisting the myth to suit your pointless argument.
I don't know off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure we have the best home record over the past 10 or 20 years and because of that away teams are far less likely to be in our penalty area meaning there are far less chances of penalties even happening. There is no conspiracy, we get penaties wrongly given to us and against us, so does every team, it's football deal with it.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 2 seconds ago
yes and as I said that doesn't dispel the myth that United get more favourable penalty decisions. I mean you can't be this stupid can you?
..............
But it does dispel the myth about penalties at OT, which is what the thread is all about?
You did read the title of the thread, didn't you? Surely you are not this stupid?
--------------------------------------
No, it simply says how many were given, which doesn't dispel the myth that United get the favourable penalty decisions which is what you have all been going on about all day, on this board.
It simply says how many were given. I don;t even know why I have to do this, as you;re not this stupid but let's break it down into an example.
Newcastle get 10 penalties given against them. 5 of them were mistakes and shouldn't have been penalties.
United get 12 penalties against them, 9 of them were correct decisions.
Who got the more favourable decisions, even though one obviously had more penalties given against them?
next they will be saying suarez is innocent and evra is a liar....
ABU's......
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 2 minutes ago
@There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
I think the myth and Jol's original point is that NO teams get penalties at Old Trafford when the article clear shows they do.
------------------------------------
I'm not sure anybody believes nobody gets a penalty at Old Trafford, this may have been true in the past but certainly not now. Furthermore even if it were true, you'd have to look at whether the decisions not to award penalties were correct before you can accuse United of having favourable penalty decisions.
Well we got one back last night, notice the abus weren't out in force after stoke, Newcastle, Basel and Chelsea boy I wish they get a life
No, it simply says how many were given
..............
And that is the point.
It isn't about what was not given, or what might have been.
TOOR - I am not sure how one would prove it or disprove it...
Simple stats don't show it - perhaps comparing like for like instances? But how many scenarios are exactly the same? There are usually some differences.
If a United player denies a goalscoring opportunity and isn't sent off... but a Wigan player is for a similar incident does that prove anything... in a one off instance no it woudn't. If you could get enough examples that were similar then maybe you could chart some statistically relevant data... but it would have to take into account an incredible number of factors and over a great period of time.
A single instance - "He was only shown a yellow" isn't proof. Neither is "17 penalties" - the solution is in the middle. Using statistics, but of relevant like for like examples. It wouldn't be full proof but it would be as close as you could get.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 26 seconds ago
No, it simply says how many were given
..............
And that is the point.
It isn't about what was not given, or what might have been.
-------------------------------
But it should be if you're trying to dispel a myth that United get more penalty decisions for them. Any other way is ridiculous and is just average penalties per game.
comment by MrMortimer (U8234)
posted 1 minute ago
TOOR - I am not sure how one would prove it or disprove it...
Simple stats don't show it - perhaps comparing like for like instances? But how many scenarios are exactly the same? There are usually some differences.
If a United player denies a goalscoring opportunity and isn't sent off... but a Wigan player is for a similar incident does that prove anything... in a one off instance no it woudn't. If you could get enough examples that were similar then maybe you could chart some statistically relevant data... but it would have to take into account an incredible number of factors and over a great period of time.
A single instance - "He was only shown a yellow" isn't proof. Neither is "17 penalties" - the solution is in the middle. Using statistics, but of relevant like for like examples. It wouldn't be full proof but it would be as close as you could get.
------------------------------------
for me the only way to do it would be to take a set time limit, say when the 'myth' started, take 15 years ago as an example. You'd have to analyse every decision, even team got in the penalty box and whether the decision was correct. It would be impossible and take months but it would be the best way.
To take simply how many have been given for and against each time is ridiculous and does nothing in dispelling a 'myth'.
Vidic - I think you are deliberately missing the point here... you have to be...
Preferential treatment could be shown by referees awarding penalties.
It could also be shown by referees not awarding penalties when they should.
United have conceded penalties this year... were they all the right decision? If a referee awards 5 penalties - and they are all penalties... then the ref isn't being harsh or lenient, he is being even. If he awards 2 penalties that aren't penalties... he is being lenient, not even. If he awards 10 penalties he is being harsh not even. The number of penalties alone is useless as a statistic unless you have the number of penalties which should have been awarded - then you can compare!
If its not penaltys they are moaning about its that other myth called fergie time....
But it should be if you're trying to dispel a myth that United get more penalty decisions for them
....................
No one is trying to dispel that myth are they? The myth we are dispelling here is that teams don't get penalties at OT.
This is the very first sentence of this thread, which you clearly have not read, or understood.
'The Telegraph have done a nice little piece about people's claims that Old Trafford is the hardest place for visiting teams to be awarded a penalty'.
I actually have to ask if you are being a dunce on purpose this time?
TOOR completely agree!
Though you must allow for human error - referees will make mistakes. If they give 90% of penalties which could/should be awarded and for every other club they give 50% then that will prove the refereeing is different at that ground to others.
The trouble is though - it is interpretation... a lot of incidents some people will think are fouls some won't. Referees will have different views and opinions on how muhc contact is necessary and so on...
It isn't ever going to be 100% accurate!
comment by MrMortimer (U8234)
posted 3 minutes ago
Vidic - I think you are deliberately missing the point here... you have to be...
Preferential treatment could be shown by referees awarding penalties.
It could also be shown by referees not awarding penalties when they should.
United have conceded penalties this year... were they all the right decision? If a referee awards 5 penalties - and they are all penalties... then the ref isn't being harsh or lenient, he is being even. If he awards 2 penalties that aren't penalties... he is being lenient, not even. If he awards 10 penalties he is being harsh not even. The number of penalties alone is useless as a statistic unless you have the number of penalties which should have been awarded - then you can compare!
---------------------------
This seems like basic common sense to me. Please step forward a United fan with common sense before I lose faith in you altogether.
TOOR Mr Mortimer
ABU's UTD
'The Telegraph have done a nice little piece about people's claims that Old Trafford is the hardest place for visiting teams to be awarded a penalty'.
Exactly you fool. To determine this you have to determine whether penalty decisions have be given when they shouldn't have been and not given when they should have been. Not how many were or were not given.
Did you spend your time in school standing in the corner?
comment by MrMortimer (U8234)
posted 3 minutes ago
TOOR completely agree!
Though you must allow for human error - referees will make mistakes. If they give 90% of penalties which could/should be awarded and for every other club they give 50% then that will prove the refereeing is different at that ground to others.
The trouble is though - it is interpretation... a lot of incidents some people will think are fouls some won't. Referees will have different views and opinions on how muhc contact is necessary and so on...
It isn't ever going to be 100% accurate!
----------------------------------------
100%
if United had 90% others 82% etc, you could hardly out that down to United getting favourable decision due to say fan pressure or Fergie pressure, as it could have been simple errors, however if the gap was large, then it would prove that United do get favourable decisions. If there was no gap, it'd dispel the myth.
comment by Arab of Manchester (U11781)
posted 2 minutes ago
He isn't a United fan.
----------------------------------
I know. I have a sixth sense for these kind of things. I'm ignoring him.
I know. I have a sixth sense for these kind of things. I'm ignoring him.
I was on about that MrMortimer by the way..
Exactly you fool. To determine this you have to determine whether penalty decisions have be given when they shouldn't have been and not given when they should have been. Not how many were or were not given.
Did you spend your time in school standing in the corner?
..............
The article is about the number of penalties that have been given at OT compared to other grounds.
What part of that do you still, after two plus hours, not understand?
It is not about dubious decisions. I repeat, it is not about dubious decisions.
There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
Look I see what you are getting at but if you cant provide any kind of statistical evidence your argument is kind of pointless. I get that teams have had genuine penalty claims not given at Old Trafford but so have we, as well as penalties wrongly given, just look at the Newcastle penalty they got this season. It happens to all teams however because United are the biggest club in England these incidents are highlighted are more than at other grounds because their simply isn't interest.
All this Telegraph is showing is the myth that has been around for many years that you don't get penalties at Old Trafford. The myth isn't that the ratio of penalties given from fouls conceded is low, it is and always has been "NO ONE GETS PENALTIES AT OLD TRAFFORD" which this article beautifully illustrates is a load of nonsense.
comment by Arab of Manchester (U11781)
posted 6 minutes ago
I know. I have a sixth sense for these kind of things. I'm ignoring him.
I was on about that MrMortimer by the way..
---------------------------
Ah yes, I know. He's a Rangers fan.
Sign in if you want to comment
The myth about pens at Old Trafford
Page 6 of 25
7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11
posted on 27/3/12
This is ridiculous also.
------------------
how so?
a rather unsubstantiated comment there... smacks not wanting to debate and idiocy some might say.
posted on 27/3/12
@There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
I think the myth and Jol's original point is that NO teams get penalties at Old Trafford when the article clear shows they do.
I think you're twisting the myth to suit your pointless argument.
I don't know off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure we have the best home record over the past 10 or 20 years and because of that away teams are far less likely to be in our penalty area meaning there are far less chances of penalties even happening. There is no conspiracy, we get penaties wrongly given to us and against us, so does every team, it's football deal with it.
posted on 27/3/12
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 2 seconds ago
yes and as I said that doesn't dispel the myth that United get more favourable penalty decisions. I mean you can't be this stupid can you?
..............
But it does dispel the myth about penalties at OT, which is what the thread is all about?
You did read the title of the thread, didn't you? Surely you are not this stupid?
--------------------------------------
No, it simply says how many were given, which doesn't dispel the myth that United get the favourable penalty decisions which is what you have all been going on about all day, on this board.
It simply says how many were given. I don;t even know why I have to do this, as you;re not this stupid but let's break it down into an example.
Newcastle get 10 penalties given against them. 5 of them were mistakes and shouldn't have been penalties.
United get 12 penalties against them, 9 of them were correct decisions.
Who got the more favourable decisions, even though one obviously had more penalties given against them?
posted on 27/3/12
next they will be saying suarez is innocent and evra is a liar....
ABU's......
posted on 27/3/12
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 2 minutes ago
@There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
I think the myth and Jol's original point is that NO teams get penalties at Old Trafford when the article clear shows they do.
------------------------------------
I'm not sure anybody believes nobody gets a penalty at Old Trafford, this may have been true in the past but certainly not now. Furthermore even if it were true, you'd have to look at whether the decisions not to award penalties were correct before you can accuse United of having favourable penalty decisions.
posted on 27/3/12
Well we got one back last night, notice the abus weren't out in force after stoke, Newcastle, Basel and Chelsea boy I wish they get a life
posted on 27/3/12
No ones that stupid
posted on 27/3/12
No, it simply says how many were given
..............
And that is the point.
It isn't about what was not given, or what might have been.
posted on 27/3/12
TOOR - I am not sure how one would prove it or disprove it...
Simple stats don't show it - perhaps comparing like for like instances? But how many scenarios are exactly the same? There are usually some differences.
If a United player denies a goalscoring opportunity and isn't sent off... but a Wigan player is for a similar incident does that prove anything... in a one off instance no it woudn't. If you could get enough examples that were similar then maybe you could chart some statistically relevant data... but it would have to take into account an incredible number of factors and over a great period of time.
A single instance - "He was only shown a yellow" isn't proof. Neither is "17 penalties" - the solution is in the middle. Using statistics, but of relevant like for like examples. It wouldn't be full proof but it would be as close as you could get.
posted on 27/3/12
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 26 seconds ago
No, it simply says how many were given
..............
And that is the point.
It isn't about what was not given, or what might have been.
-------------------------------
But it should be if you're trying to dispel a myth that United get more penalty decisions for them. Any other way is ridiculous and is just average penalties per game.
posted on 27/3/12
comment by MrMortimer (U8234)
posted 1 minute ago
TOOR - I am not sure how one would prove it or disprove it...
Simple stats don't show it - perhaps comparing like for like instances? But how many scenarios are exactly the same? There are usually some differences.
If a United player denies a goalscoring opportunity and isn't sent off... but a Wigan player is for a similar incident does that prove anything... in a one off instance no it woudn't. If you could get enough examples that were similar then maybe you could chart some statistically relevant data... but it would have to take into account an incredible number of factors and over a great period of time.
A single instance - "He was only shown a yellow" isn't proof. Neither is "17 penalties" - the solution is in the middle. Using statistics, but of relevant like for like examples. It wouldn't be full proof but it would be as close as you could get.
------------------------------------
for me the only way to do it would be to take a set time limit, say when the 'myth' started, take 15 years ago as an example. You'd have to analyse every decision, even team got in the penalty box and whether the decision was correct. It would be impossible and take months but it would be the best way.
To take simply how many have been given for and against each time is ridiculous and does nothing in dispelling a 'myth'.
posted on 27/3/12
Vidic - I think you are deliberately missing the point here... you have to be...
Preferential treatment could be shown by referees awarding penalties.
It could also be shown by referees not awarding penalties when they should.
United have conceded penalties this year... were they all the right decision? If a referee awards 5 penalties - and they are all penalties... then the ref isn't being harsh or lenient, he is being even. If he awards 2 penalties that aren't penalties... he is being lenient, not even. If he awards 10 penalties he is being harsh not even. The number of penalties alone is useless as a statistic unless you have the number of penalties which should have been awarded - then you can compare!
posted on 27/3/12
If its not penaltys they are moaning about its that other myth called fergie time....
posted on 27/3/12
But it should be if you're trying to dispel a myth that United get more penalty decisions for them
....................
No one is trying to dispel that myth are they? The myth we are dispelling here is that teams don't get penalties at OT.
This is the very first sentence of this thread, which you clearly have not read, or understood.
'The Telegraph have done a nice little piece about people's claims that Old Trafford is the hardest place for visiting teams to be awarded a penalty'.
I actually have to ask if you are being a dunce on purpose this time?
posted on 27/3/12
TOOR completely agree!
Though you must allow for human error - referees will make mistakes. If they give 90% of penalties which could/should be awarded and for every other club they give 50% then that will prove the refereeing is different at that ground to others.
The trouble is though - it is interpretation... a lot of incidents some people will think are fouls some won't. Referees will have different views and opinions on how muhc contact is necessary and so on...
It isn't ever going to be 100% accurate!
posted on 27/3/12
comment by MrMortimer (U8234)
posted 3 minutes ago
Vidic - I think you are deliberately missing the point here... you have to be...
Preferential treatment could be shown by referees awarding penalties.
It could also be shown by referees not awarding penalties when they should.
United have conceded penalties this year... were they all the right decision? If a referee awards 5 penalties - and they are all penalties... then the ref isn't being harsh or lenient, he is being even. If he awards 2 penalties that aren't penalties... he is being lenient, not even. If he awards 10 penalties he is being harsh not even. The number of penalties alone is useless as a statistic unless you have the number of penalties which should have been awarded - then you can compare!
---------------------------
This seems like basic common sense to me. Please step forward a United fan with common sense before I lose faith in you altogether.
posted on 27/3/12
TOOR Mr Mortimer
ABU's UTD
posted on 27/3/12
He isn't a United fan.
posted on 27/3/12
'The Telegraph have done a nice little piece about people's claims that Old Trafford is the hardest place for visiting teams to be awarded a penalty'.
Exactly you fool. To determine this you have to determine whether penalty decisions have be given when they shouldn't have been and not given when they should have been. Not how many were or were not given.
Did you spend your time in school standing in the corner?
posted on 27/3/12
comment by MrMortimer (U8234)
posted 3 minutes ago
TOOR completely agree!
Though you must allow for human error - referees will make mistakes. If they give 90% of penalties which could/should be awarded and for every other club they give 50% then that will prove the refereeing is different at that ground to others.
The trouble is though - it is interpretation... a lot of incidents some people will think are fouls some won't. Referees will have different views and opinions on how muhc contact is necessary and so on...
It isn't ever going to be 100% accurate!
----------------------------------------
100%
if United had 90% others 82% etc, you could hardly out that down to United getting favourable decision due to say fan pressure or Fergie pressure, as it could have been simple errors, however if the gap was large, then it would prove that United do get favourable decisions. If there was no gap, it'd dispel the myth.
posted on 27/3/12
comment by Arab of Manchester (U11781)
posted 2 minutes ago
He isn't a United fan.
----------------------------------
I know. I have a sixth sense for these kind of things. I'm ignoring him.
posted on 27/3/12
I know. I have a sixth sense for these kind of things. I'm ignoring him.
I was on about that MrMortimer by the way..
posted on 27/3/12
Exactly you fool. To determine this you have to determine whether penalty decisions have be given when they shouldn't have been and not given when they should have been. Not how many were or were not given.
Did you spend your time in school standing in the corner?
..............
The article is about the number of penalties that have been given at OT compared to other grounds.
What part of that do you still, after two plus hours, not understand?
It is not about dubious decisions. I repeat, it is not about dubious decisions.
posted on 27/3/12
There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
Look I see what you are getting at but if you cant provide any kind of statistical evidence your argument is kind of pointless. I get that teams have had genuine penalty claims not given at Old Trafford but so have we, as well as penalties wrongly given, just look at the Newcastle penalty they got this season. It happens to all teams however because United are the biggest club in England these incidents are highlighted are more than at other grounds because their simply isn't interest.
All this Telegraph is showing is the myth that has been around for many years that you don't get penalties at Old Trafford. The myth isn't that the ratio of penalties given from fouls conceded is low, it is and always has been "NO ONE GETS PENALTIES AT OLD TRAFFORD" which this article beautifully illustrates is a load of nonsense.
posted on 27/3/12
comment by Arab of Manchester (U11781)
posted 6 minutes ago
I know. I have a sixth sense for these kind of things. I'm ignoring him.
I was on about that MrMortimer by the way..
---------------------------
Ah yes, I know. He's a Rangers fan.
Page 6 of 25
7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11