FatJan
You are far to god a poster to try and sugar coat this.
Not including the youth, there are probably more bad buys on there than SAF has had in his whole time at OT, and as we all know, SAF has made a few howlers himself.
Lets look at the good buys. Torres, Alonso, Macharano...
I think it is clear Rafa was not half as bad as many thought and if he came back which i would love to see he could still do a job for us
The players he targeted that our worldclass now silva alves etc were hardly well known when he spotted them.
Rafa's signings were mostly AT LEAST decent, a lot of them were very good. And the ones that weren't, well even many of those were moved on for a profit. Overall, he bought well considering he had to try to improve a number of positions on a limited budget. I would welcome him back to the club should Dalglish go.
Vidicschin
if you exclude the youth, there are 40 players.
These are what i would consider very good buys -
Torres, Mascherano, Reina, Alonso, Arbeloa, Lucas, Agger. Kuyt.
The following are what I would consider good buys as they all came in and did a good job -
Crouch, Bellamy, Benayoun, Riera, Skrtel, Garcia, Johnson, Sissoko, Kygiakos, Aurelio (good footballer but very injury prone)
Morientes was a very good player but it didn't work our for him. Zenden was a steady player. Fowler was a legend so him coing back on a free wasn't a bad thing. Pennant underwhelmed.
That about 20 players who were very good, good, decent/did a ok job.
Then there are some players who were awful, like Gonzalez, Voronin, Kromkamp, Nunez, Josemi, El Zhar and a few others, but they were all free or very cheap so what did you expect.
There were two very expensive mistakes in Keane and Aquilani, but generally when he had money to spend he spend it well. Dossena was pretty poor but it was only £7m spent.
When he was shopping in the bargain bin, unsurprisingly there were some duff players.
Too much is made out of Rafa's transfer record. I honestly think he did a decent job.
And FatJanMolby wasn't sugar coating anything, just saying it like it is.
Plus Rafa targeted a number of players who were of a higher quality than the ones we actually bought, e.g. Villa, Silva, Aguero, Malouda, Simao, Alves, Vidic. But Rick Parry's stubbornness and dithering meant we missed out on these.
FatJan
You are far to god a poster
===============================
Congratulations FatJan, you're God!
comment by Lucas The Destroyer (U11770)
posted 1 minute ago
The players he targeted that our worldclass now silva alves etc were hardly well known when he spotted them.
......................
He would have had to have ben blind not to spot Silva, considering he played for Rafa at Valencia.
FatJan
Your definition of good buys and mine vary quite a bit.
That is probably why United have been at the top of the pile for a while and you have not. You just accept average as good.
Kuyt is an average player, as are Crouch, Bellamy (under Rafa), Benayoun, Riera, Skrtel, Garcia, Johnson, Sissoko, Kygiakos, Aurelio .
Kuyt - been a very good player overall and has scored many important goals for us.
Crouch - after a slow start became a good player for us.
Bellamy - fair enough he wasn't great in his first spell, but still posed a threat.
Benayoun - perfect squad player, which every team needs.
Riera - had a good start but admittedly faded a bit.
Skrtel - brilliant player.
Garcia - hit and miss, but a fans' favourite, crucial in our CL win.
Johnson - has his moments sometimes but a very good player overall.
Sissoko - a monster in midfield and did very well for us.
Kyrgiakos - decent for the money we paid and reliant.
Aurelio - when he was actually fit he was a brilliant defender, unfortunately he never is anymore.
VC - these players cost next to nothing, that's why I think they a did a good job and should be considered good players for how much they were bought for. Value for money. Garcia was £6m, Bellamy 6m, Kuyt £9m, Crouch 7m, Sissoko 5m, Krgiakos 1m.
When you buy someone for £6m they are not going to be an Aguero or Villa. That was the budget we had for that money they were good players/value for money.
When we spent big on Mascherano and Torres it was money well spent. We had expensive mistakes in Aquilani and Keane as you have had with Veron and Hargreaves.
Alonso, Reina, Agger (less than £6m), Lucas ( £6m) were bargains.
Man Utd on the other hand have spent a lot of money on their good players, just in your current team there is Rio £28m, Rooney, £27m, Carrick £18m, Nani, Anderson were about 15m a piece, Valencia, £16m, Berbatov £30m etc etc. Along the way you've picked up some bargains in onaldo and Vidic, but generally your very good players have cost you money.
Can you see the difference? When you spent big you more often than not you buy quality. When you budget on (individual) players is smaller then it is more hit and miss.
Its about value for money VC, and Rafa got plenty of value.
Kuyt - been a very good player overall and has scored many important goals for us.
...............
Wouldn't get in a top four team apart from Liverpool
Crouch - after a slow start became a good player for us.
...................
Crouch is at his correct level now.
....................
Bellamy - fair enough he wasn't great in his first spell, but still posed a threat.
........................
Only with a nine iron. (couldn't resisty that)
...........................
Benayoun - perfect squad player, which every team needs.
......................
Just about, but I doubt he was bought as a squad player.
....................
Riera - had a good start but admittedly faded a bit.
.........................
Not impressed.
...........................
Skrtel - brilliant player.
.........................
No he is not, under any stretch of the imagination.
..........................
Garcia - hit and miss, but a fans' favourite, crucial in our CL win.
.........................
Miss far more times than a hit.
......................
Johnson - has his moments sometimes but a very good player overall.
...........................
Poor defender, good attacker. Troubble is, he is a right back.
...........................
Sissoko - a monster in midfield and did very well for us.
..................
When?
.......................
Kyrgiakos - decent for the money we paid and reliant.
......................
Very average
......................
Aurelio - when he was actually fit he was a brilliant defender, unfortunately he never is anymore.
.........................
Not really sure he was brilliant.
comment by FatJanMolby (U4297)
posted 33 seconds ago
VC - these players cost next to nothing
......................
It isn't about the money.
It is about the constant tuernover of players during Rafa's reign.
This did not help Liverpool. What is the point of buying a player, finding out he is rubbish and then selling him on in such a short space of time?
Just don't buy the rubbish in the first place, or at least give him a bit of time to prove he isn't rubbish.
I find the argument that a player "wouldn't get into any other top four team" quite pointless. There are many players at top four clubs that wouldn't get into the other top four teams.
Benayoun was the perfect squad player to have, but he was actually a key player for us at one point, especially in the season we finished 2nd.
If you can't see Skrtel's quality then you clearly don't watch him, and the same can be said about Aurelio of a few years ago.
Johnson is a good attacker but his defending is better than people think.
comment by Andy Carroll's Ponytail (U1217)
posted 2 minutes ago
I find the argument that a player "wouldn't get into any other top four team" quite pointless.
...............
You would, not being a top four team.
Well done for completely missing my point.
It is about the constant tuernover of players during Rafa's reign.
-------------------------
As we established earlier, if you exclude the youth players, its 40 players over 6 seasons. That's on average 8 players per season bought. In that same time Man Utd bought at least 20 first team players, adding to an already strong squad. Now consider our starting position and consider yours, yet you were still buying at least 4 players a season.
The turnover is not that bad. We didn't buy and sell all 40 players.
Lads no matter what you say or facts you point to you will never get anyone outside lfc giving Rafa any credit.
Everyone outside lfc hates him, I dont know why but that's the way it is, the only reason I can think of is that winning the cl with the team he did really rubbed rivals up the wrong way and making lfc a real threat for several seasons just poured petrol on the fire.
Rafa actually only spent over 10 million on a fraction of his signings, off the top of my head I'm thinking Johnson (he's quality I don't care what anyone says) Torres, masch, dirk, keane, aqua, I'm sure there are a few more but overall the majority of his transfers were under 10 million.
For under 10 million he got some gems in agger, skrtel, Alonso (was 10.5 so maybe doesn't count) reina and more.
I've had this argument with so many people and nobody wants to admit it as they simply hate rafa.
VC, just to put it into a little more context, in the same period, Spurs bought over 50 players that I would consider first team/squad players. Why doesn't that get mentioned?
Chelsea bought over 30 on top of what Ranieri had already bought and spend about 70 million more. Less players but more money - they were able to buy better quality.
Even Villa bought over 30 in that period, and Everton who never have any money bought 25 players in that time.
All teams buy and sell a lot of players every season, but for some reason only Rafa seems to get stick for it.
Fernando Morientes – 6.3m – sold for 3m, one of the worst transfers in the history of the Premier League.
------
Sorry mate but this is just wrong... Compare this to
Shevchenko
Bakayoko
Bebe
kleberson
Djemba djemba
Continued
James Beattie
That lad Sunderland signed from Ipswich
Francis Jeffers
Casiraghi
You know where I'm coming from... There have been waaaaaaaaay worse transfers than Morientes
Read this article and you will be much wiser. Especially the part attached to each player saying where is he now.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1221975/Rafa-Benitezs-229m-spending-spree-The-76-players-signed-Liverpool-managers-reign.html
======================================
Article by Daily Mail makes you wiser
The fact is that most players in that link were youth/reserve players not meant for first team football.
Flawed like all Daily Fail articles.
Sign in if you want to comment
Why does Rafa get stick for his signings
Page 2 of 5
posted on 25/4/12
FatJan
You are far to god a poster to try and sugar coat this.
Not including the youth, there are probably more bad buys on there than SAF has had in his whole time at OT, and as we all know, SAF has made a few howlers himself.
posted on 25/4/12
Lets look at the good buys. Torres, Alonso, Macharano...
posted on 25/4/12
Reina, Agger, Skrtel
posted on 25/4/12
I think it is clear Rafa was not half as bad as many thought and if he came back which i would love to see he could still do a job for us
posted on 25/4/12
The players he targeted that our worldclass now silva alves etc were hardly well known when he spotted them.
posted on 25/4/12
Rafa's signings were mostly AT LEAST decent, a lot of them were very good. And the ones that weren't, well even many of those were moved on for a profit. Overall, he bought well considering he had to try to improve a number of positions on a limited budget. I would welcome him back to the club should Dalglish go.
posted on 25/4/12
Vidicschin
if you exclude the youth, there are 40 players.
These are what i would consider very good buys -
Torres, Mascherano, Reina, Alonso, Arbeloa, Lucas, Agger. Kuyt.
The following are what I would consider good buys as they all came in and did a good job -
Crouch, Bellamy, Benayoun, Riera, Skrtel, Garcia, Johnson, Sissoko, Kygiakos, Aurelio (good footballer but very injury prone)
Morientes was a very good player but it didn't work our for him. Zenden was a steady player. Fowler was a legend so him coing back on a free wasn't a bad thing. Pennant underwhelmed.
That about 20 players who were very good, good, decent/did a ok job.
Then there are some players who were awful, like Gonzalez, Voronin, Kromkamp, Nunez, Josemi, El Zhar and a few others, but they were all free or very cheap so what did you expect.
There were two very expensive mistakes in Keane and Aquilani, but generally when he had money to spend he spend it well. Dossena was pretty poor but it was only £7m spent.
When he was shopping in the bargain bin, unsurprisingly there were some duff players.
Too much is made out of Rafa's transfer record. I honestly think he did a decent job.
posted on 25/4/12
And FatJanMolby wasn't sugar coating anything, just saying it like it is.
Plus Rafa targeted a number of players who were of a higher quality than the ones we actually bought, e.g. Villa, Silva, Aguero, Malouda, Simao, Alves, Vidic. But Rick Parry's stubbornness and dithering meant we missed out on these.
posted on 25/4/12
FatJan
You are far to god a poster
===============================
Congratulations FatJan, you're God!
posted on 25/4/12
Thanks VC.
posted on 25/4/12
comment by Lucas The Destroyer (U11770)
posted 1 minute ago
The players he targeted that our worldclass now silva alves etc were hardly well known when he spotted them.
......................
He would have had to have ben blind not to spot Silva, considering he played for Rafa at Valencia.
posted on 25/4/12
FatJan
Your definition of good buys and mine vary quite a bit.
That is probably why United have been at the top of the pile for a while and you have not. You just accept average as good.
Kuyt is an average player, as are Crouch, Bellamy (under Rafa), Benayoun, Riera, Skrtel, Garcia, Johnson, Sissoko, Kygiakos, Aurelio .
posted on 25/4/12
Kuyt - been a very good player overall and has scored many important goals for us.
Crouch - after a slow start became a good player for us.
Bellamy - fair enough he wasn't great in his first spell, but still posed a threat.
Benayoun - perfect squad player, which every team needs.
Riera - had a good start but admittedly faded a bit.
Skrtel - brilliant player.
Garcia - hit and miss, but a fans' favourite, crucial in our CL win.
Johnson - has his moments sometimes but a very good player overall.
Sissoko - a monster in midfield and did very well for us.
Kyrgiakos - decent for the money we paid and reliant.
Aurelio - when he was actually fit he was a brilliant defender, unfortunately he never is anymore.
posted on 25/4/12
VC - these players cost next to nothing, that's why I think they a did a good job and should be considered good players for how much they were bought for. Value for money. Garcia was £6m, Bellamy 6m, Kuyt £9m, Crouch 7m, Sissoko 5m, Krgiakos 1m.
When you buy someone for £6m they are not going to be an Aguero or Villa. That was the budget we had for that money they were good players/value for money.
When we spent big on Mascherano and Torres it was money well spent. We had expensive mistakes in Aquilani and Keane as you have had with Veron and Hargreaves.
Alonso, Reina, Agger (less than £6m), Lucas ( £6m) were bargains.
Man Utd on the other hand have spent a lot of money on their good players, just in your current team there is Rio £28m, Rooney, £27m, Carrick £18m, Nani, Anderson were about 15m a piece, Valencia, £16m, Berbatov £30m etc etc. Along the way you've picked up some bargains in onaldo and Vidic, but generally your very good players have cost you money.
Can you see the difference? When you spent big you more often than not you buy quality. When you budget on (individual) players is smaller then it is more hit and miss.
Its about value for money VC, and Rafa got plenty of value.
posted on 25/4/12
Kuyt - been a very good player overall and has scored many important goals for us.
...............
Wouldn't get in a top four team apart from Liverpool
Crouch - after a slow start became a good player for us.
...................
Crouch is at his correct level now.
....................
Bellamy - fair enough he wasn't great in his first spell, but still posed a threat.
........................
Only with a nine iron. (couldn't resisty that)
...........................
Benayoun - perfect squad player, which every team needs.
......................
Just about, but I doubt he was bought as a squad player.
....................
Riera - had a good start but admittedly faded a bit.
.........................
Not impressed.
...........................
Skrtel - brilliant player.
.........................
No he is not, under any stretch of the imagination.
..........................
Garcia - hit and miss, but a fans' favourite, crucial in our CL win.
.........................
Miss far more times than a hit.
......................
Johnson - has his moments sometimes but a very good player overall.
...........................
Poor defender, good attacker. Troubble is, he is a right back.
...........................
Sissoko - a monster in midfield and did very well for us.
..................
When?
.......................
Kyrgiakos - decent for the money we paid and reliant.
......................
Very average
......................
Aurelio - when he was actually fit he was a brilliant defender, unfortunately he never is anymore.
.........................
Not really sure he was brilliant.
posted on 25/4/12
comment by FatJanMolby (U4297)
posted 33 seconds ago
VC - these players cost next to nothing
......................
It isn't about the money.
It is about the constant tuernover of players during Rafa's reign.
This did not help Liverpool. What is the point of buying a player, finding out he is rubbish and then selling him on in such a short space of time?
Just don't buy the rubbish in the first place, or at least give him a bit of time to prove he isn't rubbish.
posted on 25/4/12
I find the argument that a player "wouldn't get into any other top four team" quite pointless. There are many players at top four clubs that wouldn't get into the other top four teams.
Benayoun was the perfect squad player to have, but he was actually a key player for us at one point, especially in the season we finished 2nd.
If you can't see Skrtel's quality then you clearly don't watch him, and the same can be said about Aurelio of a few years ago.
Johnson is a good attacker but his defending is better than people think.
posted on 25/4/12
comment by Andy Carroll's Ponytail (U1217)
posted 2 minutes ago
I find the argument that a player "wouldn't get into any other top four team" quite pointless.
...............
You would, not being a top four team.
posted on 25/4/12
Well done for completely missing my point.
posted on 25/4/12
It is about the constant tuernover of players during Rafa's reign.
-------------------------
As we established earlier, if you exclude the youth players, its 40 players over 6 seasons. That's on average 8 players per season bought. In that same time Man Utd bought at least 20 first team players, adding to an already strong squad. Now consider our starting position and consider yours, yet you were still buying at least 4 players a season.
The turnover is not that bad. We didn't buy and sell all 40 players.
posted on 25/4/12
Lads no matter what you say or facts you point to you will never get anyone outside lfc giving Rafa any credit.
Everyone outside lfc hates him, I dont know why but that's the way it is, the only reason I can think of is that winning the cl with the team he did really rubbed rivals up the wrong way and making lfc a real threat for several seasons just poured petrol on the fire.
Rafa actually only spent over 10 million on a fraction of his signings, off the top of my head I'm thinking Johnson (he's quality I don't care what anyone says) Torres, masch, dirk, keane, aqua, I'm sure there are a few more but overall the majority of his transfers were under 10 million.
For under 10 million he got some gems in agger, skrtel, Alonso (was 10.5 so maybe doesn't count) reina and more.
I've had this argument with so many people and nobody wants to admit it as they simply hate rafa.
posted on 25/4/12
VC, just to put it into a little more context, in the same period, Spurs bought over 50 players that I would consider first team/squad players. Why doesn't that get mentioned?
Chelsea bought over 30 on top of what Ranieri had already bought and spend about 70 million more. Less players but more money - they were able to buy better quality.
Even Villa bought over 30 in that period, and Everton who never have any money bought 25 players in that time.
All teams buy and sell a lot of players every season, but for some reason only Rafa seems to get stick for it.
posted on 25/4/12
Fernando Morientes – 6.3m – sold for 3m, one of the worst transfers in the history of the Premier League.
------
Sorry mate but this is just wrong... Compare this to
Shevchenko
Bakayoko
Bebe
kleberson
Djemba djemba
posted on 25/4/12
Continued
James Beattie
That lad Sunderland signed from Ipswich
Francis Jeffers
Casiraghi
You know where I'm coming from... There have been waaaaaaaaay worse transfers than Morientes
posted on 26/4/12
Read this article and you will be much wiser. Especially the part attached to each player saying where is he now.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1221975/Rafa-Benitezs-229m-spending-spree-The-76-players-signed-Liverpool-managers-reign.html
======================================
Article by Daily Mail makes you wiser
The fact is that most players in that link were youth/reserve players not meant for first team football.
Flawed like all Daily Fail articles.
Page 2 of 5