comment by makar - Thread Killer (U4260)
posted 16 minutes ago
The problem really is that there are a lot of people in power who make a lot of money out of the lower classes
---------------------------------
Lower classes?
Perhaps this label is part of the problem.
You're right about that, interchange that expression with 'the more deprived parts of society' or something less loaded then.
comment by Toblerone Boots (U4965)
posted 22 minutes ago
You cannot force people to do something when they don't have the working mindset because it isn't ingrained into them.
---------------------------------------------------------
You can force them into facing the realities of life by stopping their handouts if they don't though.
You're making excuses for people who deserve little pity, they need understanding, but they also need some "tough love". The only way to change the mindset is to change the options available & the option that needs to be removed is the option of sitting on your rse for a lifetime sponging off those who contribute to our Society.
It really is that simple.
=====
In a nutshelll...you are right.
So why has that not been done?
comment by makar - Thread Killer (U4260)
posted 19 seconds ago
So why has that not been done?
-------------------------------------------------
Who is brave enough to do it? Certainly not the current government.
why would they not be brave?
they're ruthless at cuts to other areas, police, social sector etc.
comment by makar - Thread Killer (U4260)
posted 37 seconds ago
why would they not be brave?
they're ruthless at cuts to other areas, police, social sector etc.
---------------------------------------------
Well they have started implementing it, it takes time, it's not an overnight thing. They have brought in more tests for those claiming they can't work. They have brought in more schemes to get people working, like the one mentioned in this article, however a new government, a stronger one, will be needed to take that final step and say enough is enough! You're gonna earn your way in this country, just like everybody else!
Why would they need to be brave, what could potentially happen that makes this decision an act of bravery?
So why has that not been done?
---------------------------------------------
Political will & timing.
It's now an issue that the majority feel needs tackling, so now the political stakes are lower, as the timing is now right.
It'll still be an issue that is dealt with very cautiously though, as there's a danger of social unrest & the more Liberal amongst us, having misguided misgivings about the principle of making people accountable for themselves.
As ever, the debate will be polarised, as every time this issue is raised, the issue of corporate tax evasion / avoidance is always chucked in, by those who wish to divert the debate from the principle of making the feckless responsible & turn it into one about the National balance sheet.
Nobody's 'conditioned' for work though. It's just something you do and get used to once you get old enough to do it. I wager a large proportion of people in the country dislike, or at least don't particularly enjoy, their job. They do to earn money and get by in life. It's not something you're 'taught' to do.
Exactly I absolutely despise my job but I have to do it.
Yea but again, different upbringings mean you have different understandings and different priorities. If you grew up with no-one else in your family working then you are going to view the world in a much much different way to how we currently view it.
It is a bit like expecting those poor souls that have been locked in a basement etc. to suddenly realise what life is all about. If they were adopted into a family that could install those values (before they get too old) you may expect some changes, otherwise, you can only really see those people ending up on benefits and/ or in jail.
If they were adopted into a family that could install those values (before they get too old) you may expect some changes, otherwise, you can only really see those people ending up on benefits and/ or in jail.
----------------------------------------------------------
wtf?
You've made some sweeping generalisations there haven't you?
There's plenty who are born into poor circumstances & then go on to live fulfilled lives as contributing members of our Society.
comment by makar - Thread Killer (U4260)
posted 26 minutes ago
Yea but again, different upbringings mean you have different understandings and different priorities. If you grew up with no-one else in your family working then you are going to view the world in a much much different way to how we currently view it.
------------------------------------------
Wha?!!
I grew up with an alcoholic father who beat my mother and didn't work in the last few years of their marriage and a mother who couldn't work due to having two kids and having to pick up the pieces my father left behind.
Does that mean I became an alcoholic wife beater who doesn't work?
Your comments are getting worse as this thread goes on.
In fact it spurred me on, to actually get working and to get out from where I was.
TOOR, we all have our own stories, but we are all different. Like I said earlier the 'I came out alright' argument holds very little water since the complexities of people's situations can never be accounted for, so we fill them in with what we know about us, completely trivialising the situation. Look up the Fundamental attribution error for details.
http://216.22.10.76/wiki/The_Fundamental_Attribution_Error
It is a long and complex read, but these are not trivial problems that should just be thrown aside because it is easier for us. But it does mean that I reject your argument
It should hold a lot of water, as it proves there are people who do work, despite their family background, meaning everybody is different and that you are making crazy generalisations based on a mythical 'class'.
Put simply, people should not be getting a free ride, if their circumstances say they can work. They should be doing something for their money, regardless of how their family life was in the past!
The time for free rides is over, the money is drying up and it's the people who are working who are suffering as the lazy continue to receive everything for nothing.
Take a look at the people that live in deprived areas, then let me know who is suffering.
I really recommend taking a read of that link I sent you, I think the world would be a much better place if people understood and accepted what was written there
comment by makar - Thread Killer (U4260)
posted 3 minutes ago
Take a look at the people that live in deprived areas, then let me know who is suffering.
-----------------------------------------------------
I lived in a deprived area. I got a job and then moved to a nice area.
there's the fundamental attribution error at work!
I still live in a dump of an area but am now a teacher and will move once I can save enough money.
Although my parents are both from working class backgrounds, my dad was brought up with a more middle class attitude and passed it on to me. Wouldn't say I've had a hard life as it's far from it, but I've had to work hard to get the qualifications etc needed to be where I am now. Owe it all to my parents though, to be fair. It also helped getting into my local grammar school and getting good grades there.
Again, I worked hard for them, although there was also some natural ability involved and nurtured throughout my childhood.
Sorry but this is not just a lower class/poor upbringing problem.
I live in a small village where very bright/educated people have been career benifit claimants. Why you ask?
Because they are also smart enough to have worked the system for years!
So its a social problem, not a class problem.
Look at how the belief that the state owes them a living has crushed Greece.
A city center hospital has 8 gardeners registered.....what are they doing, cutting the grass?
comment by Fellaini's pirouette to perfection (U1308)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
Sorry but this is not just a lower class/poor upbringing problem.
I live in a small village where very bright/educated people have been career benifit claimants. Why you ask?
Because they are also smart enough to have worked the system for years!
So its a social problem, not a class problem.
Look at how the belief that the state owes them a living has crushed Greece.
A city center hospital has 8 gardeners registered.....what are they doing, cutting the grass?
--------------------------------------
Growing weed to soothe the pain of the 'customers'.
i think i might become a customer
Wait you're not already? I thought you might be and that's why you have the thoughts on display in this article.
you think i am bad now.... you should hear me when i have had some
Sign in if you want to comment
Unemployed Exploitation
Page 5 of 6
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posted on 6/6/12
comment by makar - Thread Killer (U4260)
posted 16 minutes ago
The problem really is that there are a lot of people in power who make a lot of money out of the lower classes
---------------------------------
Lower classes?
Perhaps this label is part of the problem.
posted on 6/6/12
You're right about that, interchange that expression with 'the more deprived parts of society' or something less loaded then.
posted on 6/6/12
comment by Toblerone Boots (U4965)
posted 22 minutes ago
You cannot force people to do something when they don't have the working mindset because it isn't ingrained into them.
---------------------------------------------------------
You can force them into facing the realities of life by stopping their handouts if they don't though.
You're making excuses for people who deserve little pity, they need understanding, but they also need some "tough love". The only way to change the mindset is to change the options available & the option that needs to be removed is the option of sitting on your rse for a lifetime sponging off those who contribute to our Society.
It really is that simple.
=====
In a nutshelll...you are right.
posted on 6/6/12
So why has that not been done?
posted on 6/6/12
comment by makar - Thread Killer (U4260)
posted 19 seconds ago
So why has that not been done?
-------------------------------------------------
Who is brave enough to do it? Certainly not the current government.
posted on 6/6/12
why would they not be brave?
they're ruthless at cuts to other areas, police, social sector etc.
posted on 6/6/12
comment by makar - Thread Killer (U4260)
posted 37 seconds ago
why would they not be brave?
they're ruthless at cuts to other areas, police, social sector etc.
---------------------------------------------
Well they have started implementing it, it takes time, it's not an overnight thing. They have brought in more tests for those claiming they can't work. They have brought in more schemes to get people working, like the one mentioned in this article, however a new government, a stronger one, will be needed to take that final step and say enough is enough! You're gonna earn your way in this country, just like everybody else!
posted on 6/6/12
Why would they need to be brave, what could potentially happen that makes this decision an act of bravery?
posted on 6/6/12
So why has that not been done?
---------------------------------------------
Political will & timing.
It's now an issue that the majority feel needs tackling, so now the political stakes are lower, as the timing is now right.
It'll still be an issue that is dealt with very cautiously though, as there's a danger of social unrest & the more Liberal amongst us, having misguided misgivings about the principle of making people accountable for themselves.
As ever, the debate will be polarised, as every time this issue is raised, the issue of corporate tax evasion / avoidance is always chucked in, by those who wish to divert the debate from the principle of making the feckless responsible & turn it into one about the National balance sheet.
posted on 6/6/12
Nobody's 'conditioned' for work though. It's just something you do and get used to once you get old enough to do it. I wager a large proportion of people in the country dislike, or at least don't particularly enjoy, their job. They do to earn money and get by in life. It's not something you're 'taught' to do.
posted on 6/6/12
Exactly I absolutely despise my job but I have to do it.
posted on 6/6/12
Yea but again, different upbringings mean you have different understandings and different priorities. If you grew up with no-one else in your family working then you are going to view the world in a much much different way to how we currently view it.
It is a bit like expecting those poor souls that have been locked in a basement etc. to suddenly realise what life is all about. If they were adopted into a family that could install those values (before they get too old) you may expect some changes, otherwise, you can only really see those people ending up on benefits and/ or in jail.
posted on 6/6/12
If they were adopted into a family that could install those values (before they get too old) you may expect some changes, otherwise, you can only really see those people ending up on benefits and/ or in jail.
----------------------------------------------------------
wtf?
You've made some sweeping generalisations there haven't you?
There's plenty who are born into poor circumstances & then go on to live fulfilled lives as contributing members of our Society.
posted on 6/6/12
comment by makar - Thread Killer (U4260)
posted 26 minutes ago
Yea but again, different upbringings mean you have different understandings and different priorities. If you grew up with no-one else in your family working then you are going to view the world in a much much different way to how we currently view it.
------------------------------------------
Wha?!!
I grew up with an alcoholic father who beat my mother and didn't work in the last few years of their marriage and a mother who couldn't work due to having two kids and having to pick up the pieces my father left behind.
Does that mean I became an alcoholic wife beater who doesn't work?
Your comments are getting worse as this thread goes on.
In fact it spurred me on, to actually get working and to get out from where I was.
posted on 6/6/12
TOOR, we all have our own stories, but we are all different. Like I said earlier the 'I came out alright' argument holds very little water since the complexities of people's situations can never be accounted for, so we fill them in with what we know about us, completely trivialising the situation. Look up the Fundamental attribution error for details.
http://216.22.10.76/wiki/The_Fundamental_Attribution_Error
It is a long and complex read, but these are not trivial problems that should just be thrown aside because it is easier for us. But it does mean that I reject your argument
posted on 6/6/12
It should hold a lot of water, as it proves there are people who do work, despite their family background, meaning everybody is different and that you are making crazy generalisations based on a mythical 'class'.
Put simply, people should not be getting a free ride, if their circumstances say they can work. They should be doing something for their money, regardless of how their family life was in the past!
The time for free rides is over, the money is drying up and it's the people who are working who are suffering as the lazy continue to receive everything for nothing.
posted on 6/6/12
Take a look at the people that live in deprived areas, then let me know who is suffering.
I really recommend taking a read of that link I sent you, I think the world would be a much better place if people understood and accepted what was written there
posted on 6/6/12
comment by makar - Thread Killer (U4260)
posted 3 minutes ago
Take a look at the people that live in deprived areas, then let me know who is suffering.
-----------------------------------------------------
I lived in a deprived area. I got a job and then moved to a nice area.
posted on 6/6/12
there's the fundamental attribution error at work!
posted on 6/6/12
I still live in a dump of an area but am now a teacher and will move once I can save enough money.
Although my parents are both from working class backgrounds, my dad was brought up with a more middle class attitude and passed it on to me. Wouldn't say I've had a hard life as it's far from it, but I've had to work hard to get the qualifications etc needed to be where I am now. Owe it all to my parents though, to be fair. It also helped getting into my local grammar school and getting good grades there.
Again, I worked hard for them, although there was also some natural ability involved and nurtured throughout my childhood.
posted on 6/6/12
Sorry but this is not just a lower class/poor upbringing problem.
I live in a small village where very bright/educated people have been career benifit claimants. Why you ask?
Because they are also smart enough to have worked the system for years!
So its a social problem, not a class problem.
Look at how the belief that the state owes them a living has crushed Greece.
A city center hospital has 8 gardeners registered.....what are they doing, cutting the grass?
posted on 6/6/12
comment by Fellaini's pirouette to perfection (U1308)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
Sorry but this is not just a lower class/poor upbringing problem.
I live in a small village where very bright/educated people have been career benifit claimants. Why you ask?
Because they are also smart enough to have worked the system for years!
So its a social problem, not a class problem.
Look at how the belief that the state owes them a living has crushed Greece.
A city center hospital has 8 gardeners registered.....what are they doing, cutting the grass?
--------------------------------------
Growing weed to soothe the pain of the 'customers'.
posted on 6/6/12
i think i might become a customer
posted on 6/6/12
Wait you're not already? I thought you might be and that's why you have the thoughts on display in this article.
posted on 6/6/12
you think i am bad now.... you should hear me when i have had some
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