Maybe because Anderson is the better footballer? Nobody disputes that.
What I am disputing is your claims that Cleverley is average and that he won't improve. That there is rubbish.
--------
I just dont see how he can improve. Ok he's slightly better than average. But there is nothing to his game he can improve on. He doesnt have the passing range and either you have the vision or you dont.
His shooting is the only thing he can really improve on, his stature isnt great so he is never going to be an imposing player.
Like I said he is a decent player, but this is as good as it will get.
Also you keep getting upset that I am saying Cleverley is an average footballer yet you are not producing any opinions or facts to change my mind?
We have gone from English players being overrated to who is world class or not once again.
Well if we are discussing world class, then sorry Lampard and Gerrard are not and were not. Enough games and chances to show it at international level. Great club players Undoubtedly, but this is where many don't get it. Compare them to players in other international teams, they are more comfortable on the ball, technical, can beat players, appear faster etc. It starts from a very young age and we don't coach kids correctly, to be technical. Scholes an absolute exception, Wilshere looks like he can be one of those types of players. Just look at how Athletico B. tore many teams apart last season as an example, pace,technique,talent.
For me then a revised list of world class players at their peak:
Cole A.
Rio
Shearer
Gazza
To say that Cleverley cannot improve his game when he's only 23 is silly to say the least. He's a good player, but could do with Anderson staying fit to provide consistent competition for his place.
scholes at his peak was world class, he is as good as any midfielder of the last 20 years including xavi and iniesta
Not everything revolves around being technical and being faster. Lampard and Gerrard have been the catalysts for their clubs successes for over a decade each, they've scored great goals, broken records, spurred their team on to greatness and have, genuinely, been amazing footballers all round. Just because they're not the same style of footballer as Iniesta and Xavi and because Zidane was better than both does not mean that they were not world class at their peak because they truly were.
So he's went from average to decent now? What has he done to up these visionary categories you have created for players?
There is plenty that Cleverley can and will improve on. His short passing is excellent and his long passing is improving. He has pinged some lovely balls out wide and over the top so far this season.
You're talking rubbish here.
To say that Cleverley cannot improve his game when he's only 23 is silly to say the least. He's a good player, but could do with Anderson staying fit to provide consistent competition for his place.
------
I hate to be the one that states it and would love for him to improve. But I can see there is nothing more he can add to his game, he reminds me of Joe Allen who does the same thing and does it well. Both play well in a 3 man midfield but when its 2 they struggle.
We had this same discussion when Gibson at the club!
Anyhow I just think Carrick deserves to have a class midfielder next to him.
So he's went from average to decent now? What has he done to up these visionary categories you have created for players?
There is plenty that Cleverley can and will improve on. His short passing is excellent and his long passing is improving. He has pinged some lovely balls out wide and over the top so far this season.
You're talking rubbish here.
-------
Iv watched every game and aside from passing side to side thats all he has done. Its no coincidence our team played better when Anderson was in there.
Like I said he is a decent player, like your Ashley Youngs, Joe Allens etc, but if thats the level were aiming for fair enough.
No one has said he is cr ap. Stop getting upset that not everyone agrees with your views.
International level is a joke.
Europe is the real deal and what counts. Lampard and Gerrard were incredible all round footballers for their clubs and did the business consistently. Suggesting that they weren't of genuine top quality is absurd.
The arrival of tiki-taka has distorted how everything is viewed which is a shame.
It's why averages defenders such as Pique are lauded. Carragher, for example, was twice the defender he'll ever be.
It's why averages defenders such as Pique are lauded. Carragher, for example, was twice the defender he'll ever be.
------
I will agree with you on that perhaps football has changed.
But I would still like you to prove why Cleverley is a quality player. Unless I am missing something I just dont see it.
And I see everything our players do, I am a big advocate of Nani and his tracking back, and try to defend what most dont, but Cleverley, just dont see it.
Don't you think our coaching staff are working on his weaknesses, and over a period of 10 years (if he stays with us that long) that he will not improve at all. 23 is still young for a footballer, and they have scope to get better in many areas. I can't think of too many players that were world beaters at that age. That is a exception rather than the rule.
Don't you think our coaching staff are working on his weaknesses, and over a period of 10 years (if he stays with us that long) that he will not improve at all. 23 is still young for a footballer, and they have scope to get better in many areas. I can't think of too many players that were world beaters at that age. That is a exception rather than the rule.
-------
Not a world beater but there is a level above that which he isnt at. Maybe the club is working on that, but I'm not convinced I would like to see a ready made replacement for Scholes.
Just look at Nick Powell, oozes class from what I have seen, you can just see it in some players.
Even Bebe. Laugh if you want but when I have seen him play upfront he is actually a decent player.
Ninja
I'm not getting upset so don't worry big man.
You called Cleverley an average footballer. I disputed that and stated he is a good one, which he is. He isn't part of the top bracket and I don't think he ever will be.
Now, in your mind he's went from average to decent. Expect they mean the same thing don't they...
Super Keith - I don't disagree what they have done for their clubs, fantastic but that does not make them world class. That's what I am saying. In the PL yes great players but at international level they simply have had many,many chances and are ordinary most of the time. You are in the class of why I say English players are overhyped.
You could easily name 20 international players over the time Gerrard and Lampard have been playing for England who have been world class for their countries . Think about it...
Ninja
I'm not getting upset so don't worry big man.
You called Cleverley an average footballer. I disputed that and stated he is a good one, which he is. He isn't part of the top bracket and I don't think he ever will be.
Now, in your mind he's went from average to decent. Expect they mean the same thing don't they...
-----
Decent and average are the same thing? Anything below that is a poor player.
IMO there is -
Average / Good
Class
World class
We have enough average / good players, the CM area is an important area, FFS once cant we have a class or world class player in the midfield!
Not even Fabregas or Xavi just someone better than Cleverley!
It would bring so much more harmony to our team and the goals conceded will drop too.
Not blaming Cleverley but SAF has this favouritism and blind loyalty with some players and Cleverley is one of them.
Bebe is arguably the worst player to ever kick a ball in the PL.
I don't disagree what they have done for their clubs, fantastic but that does not make them world class. That's what I am saying.
=============
Well I'm saying it does so we seem to have reached a bit of an impasse on this particular topic.
Bebe is arguably the worst player to ever kick a ball in the PL.
-------
How much opportunity has he had in his favoured position?
Very unfair assessment on him.
I bet if Bebe was given as much time as Cleverley he would be as good.
Favouritism and all that.
Average and good are two completely different things. Your insistence with pretending they're the same thing is just strange.
Cleverley is good. No more, no less. I've never suggested anything different so stop peddling that myth.
Bebe will surprise many people one day. Most probably not at OT. Unfair to criticise him. AFter all our boss bought him without even seeing him play, on the say so of Portuguese contacts and a big fat pay day for an agent. One of the dodgiest deals done I am sure.
Anyhow agree he doesn't look that bad played in his favoured position and its not his fault he ended up at OT. Probably get quite lot of goals in championship or division below right now and has big scope to improve week by week.
Ian Wright was areal late developer and he had a decent career thats for sure
Cleverley is good. No more, no less. I've never suggested anything different so stop peddling that myth.
--------
Its open to interpretation. I think he is ok, not sure if that constitutes to being average or good but still dont think he is good enough to be in the first team at a club like United.
We should have higher expectations. Maybe in a 3 man midfield, and no im not asking for Xaxi or Iniesta. But there are much more talented midfielders than Cleverley, we should be aiming for the best.
Bebe will surprise many people one day. Most probably not at OT. Unfair to criticise him. AFter all our boss bought him without even seeing him play, on the say so of Portuguese contacts and a big fat pay day for an agent. One of the dodgiest deals done I am sure.
Anyhow agree he doesn't look that bad played in his favoured position and its not his fault he ended up at OT. Probably get quite lot of goals in championship or division below right now and has big scope to improve week by week.
Ian Wright was areal late developer and he had a decent career thats for sure
------
100% agree.
Favouritism.
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All English players overrated - discuss...
Page 4 of 5
posted on 31/12/12
Maybe because Anderson is the better footballer? Nobody disputes that.
What I am disputing is your claims that Cleverley is average and that he won't improve. That there is rubbish.
--------
I just dont see how he can improve. Ok he's slightly better than average. But there is nothing to his game he can improve on. He doesnt have the passing range and either you have the vision or you dont.
His shooting is the only thing he can really improve on, his stature isnt great so he is never going to be an imposing player.
Like I said he is a decent player, but this is as good as it will get.
posted on 31/12/12
Also you keep getting upset that I am saying Cleverley is an average footballer yet you are not producing any opinions or facts to change my mind?
posted on 31/12/12
We have gone from English players being overrated to who is world class or not once again.
Well if we are discussing world class, then sorry Lampard and Gerrard are not and were not. Enough games and chances to show it at international level. Great club players Undoubtedly, but this is where many don't get it. Compare them to players in other international teams, they are more comfortable on the ball, technical, can beat players, appear faster etc. It starts from a very young age and we don't coach kids correctly, to be technical. Scholes an absolute exception, Wilshere looks like he can be one of those types of players. Just look at how Athletico B. tore many teams apart last season as an example, pace,technique,talent.
For me then a revised list of world class players at their peak:
Cole A.
Rio
Shearer
Gazza
posted on 31/12/12
To say that Cleverley cannot improve his game when he's only 23 is silly to say the least. He's a good player, but could do with Anderson staying fit to provide consistent competition for his place.
posted on 31/12/12
scholes at his peak was world class, he is as good as any midfielder of the last 20 years including xavi and iniesta
posted on 31/12/12
Not everything revolves around being technical and being faster. Lampard and Gerrard have been the catalysts for their clubs successes for over a decade each, they've scored great goals, broken records, spurred their team on to greatness and have, genuinely, been amazing footballers all round. Just because they're not the same style of footballer as Iniesta and Xavi and because Zidane was better than both does not mean that they were not world class at their peak because they truly were.
posted on 31/12/12
So he's went from average to decent now? What has he done to up these visionary categories you have created for players?
There is plenty that Cleverley can and will improve on. His short passing is excellent and his long passing is improving. He has pinged some lovely balls out wide and over the top so far this season.
You're talking rubbish here.
posted on 31/12/12
To say that Cleverley cannot improve his game when he's only 23 is silly to say the least. He's a good player, but could do with Anderson staying fit to provide consistent competition for his place.
------
I hate to be the one that states it and would love for him to improve. But I can see there is nothing more he can add to his game, he reminds me of Joe Allen who does the same thing and does it well. Both play well in a 3 man midfield but when its 2 they struggle.
We had this same discussion when Gibson at the club!
Anyhow I just think Carrick deserves to have a class midfielder next to him.
posted on 31/12/12
So he's went from average to decent now? What has he done to up these visionary categories you have created for players?
There is plenty that Cleverley can and will improve on. His short passing is excellent and his long passing is improving. He has pinged some lovely balls out wide and over the top so far this season.
You're talking rubbish here.
-------
Iv watched every game and aside from passing side to side thats all he has done. Its no coincidence our team played better when Anderson was in there.
Like I said he is a decent player, like your Ashley Youngs, Joe Allens etc, but if thats the level were aiming for fair enough.
No one has said he is cr ap. Stop getting upset that not everyone agrees with your views.
posted on 31/12/12
International level is a joke.
Europe is the real deal and what counts. Lampard and Gerrard were incredible all round footballers for their clubs and did the business consistently. Suggesting that they weren't of genuine top quality is absurd.
The arrival of tiki-taka has distorted how everything is viewed which is a shame.
It's why averages defenders such as Pique are lauded. Carragher, for example, was twice the defender he'll ever be.
posted on 31/12/12
It's why averages defenders such as Pique are lauded. Carragher, for example, was twice the defender he'll ever be.
------
I will agree with you on that perhaps football has changed.
But I would still like you to prove why Cleverley is a quality player. Unless I am missing something I just dont see it.
And I see everything our players do, I am a big advocate of Nani and his tracking back, and try to defend what most dont, but Cleverley, just dont see it.
posted on 31/12/12
Don't you think our coaching staff are working on his weaknesses, and over a period of 10 years (if he stays with us that long) that he will not improve at all. 23 is still young for a footballer, and they have scope to get better in many areas. I can't think of too many players that were world beaters at that age. That is a exception rather than the rule.
posted on 31/12/12
Don't you think our coaching staff are working on his weaknesses, and over a period of 10 years (if he stays with us that long) that he will not improve at all. 23 is still young for a footballer, and they have scope to get better in many areas. I can't think of too many players that were world beaters at that age. That is a exception rather than the rule.
-------
Not a world beater but there is a level above that which he isnt at. Maybe the club is working on that, but I'm not convinced I would like to see a ready made replacement for Scholes.
Just look at Nick Powell, oozes class from what I have seen, you can just see it in some players.
Even Bebe. Laugh if you want but when I have seen him play upfront he is actually a decent player.
posted on 31/12/12
Ninja
I'm not getting upset so don't worry big man.
You called Cleverley an average footballer. I disputed that and stated he is a good one, which he is. He isn't part of the top bracket and I don't think he ever will be.
Now, in your mind he's went from average to decent. Expect they mean the same thing don't they...
posted on 31/12/12
Super Keith - I don't disagree what they have done for their clubs, fantastic but that does not make them world class. That's what I am saying. In the PL yes great players but at international level they simply have had many,many chances and are ordinary most of the time. You are in the class of why I say English players are overhyped.
You could easily name 20 international players over the time Gerrard and Lampard have been playing for England who have been world class for their countries . Think about it...
posted on 31/12/12
Ninja
I'm not getting upset so don't worry big man.
You called Cleverley an average footballer. I disputed that and stated he is a good one, which he is. He isn't part of the top bracket and I don't think he ever will be.
Now, in your mind he's went from average to decent. Expect they mean the same thing don't they...
-----
Decent and average are the same thing? Anything below that is a poor player.
IMO there is -
Average / Good
Class
World class
We have enough average / good players, the CM area is an important area, FFS once cant we have a class or world class player in the midfield!
Not even Fabregas or Xavi just someone better than Cleverley!
It would bring so much more harmony to our team and the goals conceded will drop too.
Not blaming Cleverley but SAF has this favouritism and blind loyalty with some players and Cleverley is one of them.
posted on 31/12/12
Bebe is arguably the worst player to ever kick a ball in the PL.
posted on 31/12/12
I don't disagree what they have done for their clubs, fantastic but that does not make them world class. That's what I am saying.
=============
Well I'm saying it does so we seem to have reached a bit of an impasse on this particular topic.
posted on 31/12/12
Bebe is arguably the worst player to ever kick a ball in the PL.
-------
How much opportunity has he had in his favoured position?
Very unfair assessment on him.
posted on 31/12/12
I bet if Bebe was given as much time as Cleverley he would be as good.
Favouritism and all that.
posted on 31/12/12
Average and good are two completely different things. Your insistence with pretending they're the same thing is just strange.
Cleverley is good. No more, no less. I've never suggested anything different so stop peddling that myth.
posted on 31/12/12
Bebe will surprise many people one day. Most probably not at OT. Unfair to criticise him. AFter all our boss bought him without even seeing him play, on the say so of Portuguese contacts and a big fat pay day for an agent. One of the dodgiest deals done I am sure.
Anyhow agree he doesn't look that bad played in his favoured position and its not his fault he ended up at OT. Probably get quite lot of goals in championship or division below right now and has big scope to improve week by week.
Ian Wright was areal late developer and he had a decent career thats for sure
posted on 31/12/12
Cleverley is good. No more, no less. I've never suggested anything different so stop peddling that myth.
--------
Its open to interpretation. I think he is ok, not sure if that constitutes to being average or good but still dont think he is good enough to be in the first team at a club like United.
We should have higher expectations. Maybe in a 3 man midfield, and no im not asking for Xaxi or Iniesta. But there are much more talented midfielders than Cleverley, we should be aiming for the best.
posted on 31/12/12
Bebe will surprise many people one day. Most probably not at OT. Unfair to criticise him. AFter all our boss bought him without even seeing him play, on the say so of Portuguese contacts and a big fat pay day for an agent. One of the dodgiest deals done I am sure.
Anyhow agree he doesn't look that bad played in his favoured position and its not his fault he ended up at OT. Probably get quite lot of goals in championship or division below right now and has big scope to improve week by week.
Ian Wright was areal late developer and he had a decent career thats for sure
------
100% agree.
Favouritism.
posted on 31/12/12
100
Page 4 of 5