He has been one of the best players. He may not have been as good as Mata, RVP and Suarez but he's certainly been one of the best players in the league this season.

Rob, who expected him to come in and play like a 30 odd mil player? He was never worth that for his current level, his potential is what put that price on him.

My point is that people disregard a player's exploits in foreign leagues and have this assumption that they haven't made it until they've played in the prem, which is bull.

They have to earn this respect IMO.




Your respect perhaps, but winning back to back German league titles over CL finalists Bayern is some going in my book.

Add to that the fact they are beating the likes of city and Madrid, hey must have something about them?

As for styles, it's not only Barca and Dortmhnd who play this way, quite a few on the continent do. They could easily slot into a number if teams, only the two players who have left, left for sides who player direct football, meaning they are going to take time to slot in.

If Kagawa moved to somebody like Barca, City, Athletico, Napoli ect who utilise these sorts of players, we simply wouldn't be having this conversation.

Many would argue the German league is on par with the prem or better.

.......................

Not sure why. Because it isn't.

Problem with Hazzard is, and I firmly believe this, his club told him to turn his transfer into a fiasco. His nike adverts asking here he was going, the French papers running his transfers like crazy, his twitter showdown.

You come with all that over-exposed expectations on your shoulders, you're never going to live up to who you are. Most people here I have read, have said he's the closest thing to potentially being a 'Ronaldo' in our league. He's shown flashes of greatness, however he's in a team that I can't see winning the league for a while!

Days of adaption are gone? Christ, look at Silva, Mata, Suarez, Nasri ect ect, all took 6 months to a season to find their best form. It's always been the way.

Many players have been hot and cold, even RVP. It doesn't mean a player hasn't played well overrall this season.

I think Ronaldo and Messi's consistency make it very hard to judge normal playes, as that seems to have raised the bar.

Many players before than that were considered class and pretty consistent would be deemed inconsistent by their standards. I think it's unfair on every other player in the world.

So a player is cràp unless he has player in England or Spain?

BusbysBabes (U9083)

Agreed with what you have said there referring to Kagawa. Because he's not showing the form of Dortmund, then that's already given us the impression that E.P.L is the by far the better and harder league.

Quite frankly speaking, it's not. We sit here and even try to convince ourselves that the E.P.L is better than La Liga.

I think Ronaldo and Messi's consistency make it very hard to judge normal playes, as that seems to have raised the bar.




That's a very good point, if you aren't the next Ronaldo or Messi fans don't seem to rate new players anymore.

If Kagawa moved to somebody like Barca, City, Athletico, Napoli ect who utilise these sorts of players, we simply wouldn't be having this conversation.
---------
I agree. Which is why I said we don't suit Kagawa.

BB, I mean in terms of how most people say they will take a long while to adapt. Most of those players have been pretty good all in their first season.

My point is that adapting to the prem is becoming easier and easier. Adapting to a new team is the main thing for me that will take a player longer to find their feet.

comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 23 seconds ago
Many players have been hot and cold, even RVP. It doesn't mean a player hasn't played well overrall this season.

....................

RVP has been boiling, hot, bloody warm and tepid.

Hazzard has been hot and cold.

comment by Feed The Scousers... (U16838)
posted 2 minutes ago
So a player is cràp unless he has player in England or Spain?

............

What an idiotic thing to suggest.

Vidicschin

Why are you so anti-Bundesliga... the German teama have performed just as well as the English teams in recent seasons. It is easily the 3rd best league in Europe.

Darren

All i'm saying is that until I see Hazard, Kagawa or Sahin do it consistently in La Liga or the Pl i'll wait before judging how they should go down in football history. Kagawa's problems for me aren't about playing in the wrong position etc. It's his ability to adapt to a tougher and faster league. Not saying he won't but he knew what he signed up for and needs to step it up. He even said so himself.

They could well go on to being amazing players but right now they are just potential. Nothing more, nothing less.

VC, I'm sure you're forgetting many of the games where he hardly touched the ball? Not amazing form in my opinion.

He's been scoring so it's not as big a problem as that's his job. But there is so much more to RVP than just goal scoring, we are yet to see the best of him.

I didn't suggest it Vidicschin.. Rob implied it...

My point is that adapting to the prem is becoming easier and easier. Adapting to a new team is the main thing for me that will take a player longer to find their feet.




True, it's the physicality and speed of player players take time to adapt too.

Hazards first few games are a good example, he was getting caught taking too long on the ball, rollin around everywhere. Kagawa still looks as though he is getting used to being pressed so quickly too.

But the more foreign players and coaches join the league, the style of foootba has and will continue to change.

Many world class players haven''t proven themselves in La Liga or the Prem. It's arrogant to disregard them for this.

Harder and faster is debateble. Most German sides I've watched over the last couple of years play at a far higher pace then many of the Prem teams do.

I share robs view on Kagawa, regarding the physicality and speed of the Pl, but that's something most players coming to the Pl go through, some just take longer than others to adapt.

Darren

The teams in the Bundesliga do play at a high pace but more on counter attacks.
In the PL it's end to end. Non stop.

Of course the teams in the Bundesliga have very good players. But very few of them leave to be successes elsewhere.

I don't think players get closed down as quickly as people make out.

Many English players look good in the prem but when they come up against teams that press them they look average. Where has this fallacy that English sides are fast paced pressing teams come from?

Watch them in Europe. Even Italian sides have been pressing and closing down faster than the English teams.

People are still living in 08 when they talk about European football and the prem.

Kagawa's played a lot better than people make out. He was contributing to our play with a couple of goals and assists and was settling in quite nicely before injury. I think he is being judged too harshly in comparison to his Dortmund from, which I understand, but it still shouldn't escape from the fact that he was playing pretty well, just not brilliant.

Darren

English sides have different styles in Europe though.

United are a fast counter attacking side, Arsenal are a passing side, Chelsea (last season) were battering rams who could defend well and City are yet to find a style but with the right players will one day have a Barca/Dortmund style game.

People are betting their mortgages that Bayern will destroy Arsenal next month but I have a feeling that Arsenal can surprise them. As for Dortmund i'm backing Shakhtar to get one over on them.

They do press fast, just not in groups like the Bilbao, Dortmund and Barca's if this world.

It's the strength of players too, we tend to like the stronger mobile types where as on the continent it's the smaller types with a low centre of gravity.

I reckon if Kagawa played at Chelsea or City his performances would have been much better due to the fact they're a more fluid passing side than we are.

These sort of players don't really suit United, which is a shame.