"Melton I expect us to compete but it will be the same old story regarding credit from opposition fans whatever the outcome of the PL and the football season as a whole. If utd win it will be because Moyes took over the pl winning squad. If utd dont win it it will be because hes not good enough and will be labled a failure. Not that UTD fans will give a toss whatevers said...."

Potentially blabla, I think a lot of opposition fans would give Moyes a lot of credit if he won the league this year (unless they are under 18 and immature enough that their opinion is pointless anyway). To be fair, I think there is an element of your own fanbase that will say similar things too. I've said on a different thread, a lot of people having a go at Moyes or United on this board come from your own fanbase! Again, more than likely under 18!

Every time I somebody brings the name of robby savage up all I can think about is 12 pairs of trainers

melton, yeah my mate that lives in Korea showed me that. Bloody insane.

"That said, I'd really like to see us play some attractive football again. That's my biggest hope more so than the title"

The worst thing about last season for me was not being so far behind United (I always thought you would win it), but the manner of football played by us at times, and to an extent you guys as well. We didn't have anywhere near the freedom or movement we had the year we won it and when I went to see you guys, I didn't think you were that great on the eye either.

On the whole last , I don't think last year was a vintage year for good football. Hopefully the first three games have been a blip this year and we all have better things to look forward to!

melton, I agree with that. When you won it you played some brilliant football. It''s incredible that you went from scoring 96 one season to 66 the following season. We dropped 3 goals, and that was with the introduction of RVP.

I know your strikers under performed, but as you said, the manner of your performances was underwhelming also.

It is always harder retaining the title.

93 goals

Absolutely, we went the wrong way of trying to e more defensive. At the same time, the conversion rate of the strikers dropped massively. At least this year we've looked rubbish yet still got three in eight, so they are scoring again! Just need a defence that keeps fit!

"We may not whin the wheague, but whee'll be there, or thereabouts. There's no question about that."

© SAF.

God, I miss him...

I was impressed with you against Newcastle. That was some vintage Pellegrini football there.

But Newcastle are bloody terrible. I'm sure more of those performances will come as the season wears on.

The other thing that screwed us was trying 352 at the start of the season. I feel slightly different about that though, I actually think Mancini was tactically doing the right thing but a few seasons too early. I have a feeling that will be the next formation that dominates football after the 4231.

Agreed Darren, hard to judge against Newcastle! Pellegrinis tactics rely on very high pressing though, we did that brilliantly against Newcastle but didn't against either Hull or Cardiff. It will take a while for it to properly bed in and some players just simply aren't suited to it, but I get completely what he is trying to do.

I like 352 as I'm a fan of Italian football, but I can't see it dominating football any time soon.

It's a good formation but I think it's highly exposed by quality wing play, and why it will be difficult to be in a position to be a dominant formation as that would need Italy to dominate international football and Serie A to so the same at club level.

I really don't see any of that happening. Even though I think Italy and Serie A have a very promising future.

442, 4231, 4411, 433 - these are all different variations of a basic structure.

352 would mean a massive shift tactically and I don't see that happening en mass unless the latter happens.

I've just got a feeling Darren, I went to a talk the other day by an FA coach and he was talking about it. More and more nowadays, the traditional full back role is dying and it is either wingbacks/defensive wingers that are coming through or people that play in the centre. Part of that is due to the 4231 using inside forwards more often than wingers, rather than the conventional 442.

The 352 done correctly is versatile enough to cover the wings, yet overload the middle at the same time, you just need the right people on the outsides of your 3 and your 5.

Bookmark this article and give me 10 years!

Ok, I will.

I do know what you mean, but I think that something drastic would need to happen for the back 4 to no longer be as dominant as it is.

The weakness of the wing back is that there isn't another wide player covering so when up against a back 4 you'll often see 2 vs 1 situations in the wide areas and against the best sides it will get exposed, and why unless the team using this formation are immense, they'll find it hard to dominate enough for it to gain popularity at the top clubs.

I'm not usually one to say one formation beats another, as this isn't really the case, however, I do feel at the pinnacle of football a top team using a back four will have a huge advantage over a top team using a back 3.

On an aside, I think the diamond formation isn't prevalent anymore for the same reason as it's also exposed by width.

The Italians were the best exponents of the diamond formation and due to the decline of their league and them no longer being the dominant teams in possession football, they were getting found out and scrapped it.

352 is making it's comeback because of Napoli and Juve. If Juve's next manager comes in and changes to a back 4 it wouldn't surprise me if it's popularity declines. Rafa has already done this with Napoli.

4-4-2 ALWAYS beats 4-3-3.

"I'm not usually one to say one formation beats another, as this isn't really the case, however, I do feel at the pinnacle of football a top team using a back four will have a huge advantage over a top team using a back 3. "

Not necessarily, it's all about space and the creation of it. The reason 442 is so widely used (I'm classing 4231 in there, because lets be honest, it is to all extensive purposes) is because of the coverage it can have all over the pitch. There are pairs that work together and it is easy for everyone to know their role.

The flipside is though that it can get overloaded very quickly against a 3 man midfield. The 352 done right can give you 5 in defence, 4 in midfield, or 4 up front (particularly good if two of the cms move wider to do it).

It's all down to the quality of the wide players though. I don't think there are that many great wingers out there at the moment, there is a lot of great wingbacks though and a lot of great inside forwards.

"4-4-2 ALWAYS beats 4-3-3."

Apart from the other day against Liverpool Robb...

It's not my saying Melton. Just a pisstake of something someone else says on here

Just to add to this bit -

"It's all down to the quality of the wide players though. I don't think there are that many great wingers out there at the moment, there is a lot of great wingbacks though and a lot of great inside forwards. "

Meant to say there is a lot more central defenders as well than proper full backs.

Didn't realise, apologies!

Yeah I see what you are saying there but it's not so much about there being lots of great wingers rather that teams that play with width have a huge advantage, in my opinion.

352 works best when attacking and defending through the middle, and Italy vs Spain in the first game at the Euros is a great example of that, but I still just feel that any team that is dangerous in wide areas will have a bigger advantage over that formation.

Italy's defence at the confeds was exposed in the wide areas. I also think for it to really succeed at the highest level you would need truly exceptional wing backs. With a back 4 you can get away with having an average full back or winger because there will always be two in those areas.

Barca toyed with it and it was shocking. I doubt they'll try it again. I really hope it does as it's a formation a like as it allows for more playmakers in the middle (and I love a playmaker ) but I'd be surprised if it gains popularity to the extent that you're suggesting.

Napoli have already been crossed off of the list of teams that use it. Milan didn't even bother with it. Fiorentina, Juve and Inter are the three big teams that use that formation. Montella, Conte and Mazzarri. When they leave we'll see whether they go the same way as Napoli.

Hopefully not.

I completely agree Darren, great response. As I said, it's just an inkling. I agree it relies on very very good players currently to do it, partly because it is not done very often, but with the rise of ball playing defenders and full backs that seem to resemble wingers more than actual full backs, I just think it really suits some of the players coming through. If you guys had got Baines in as well for example, you could line up like this -


-------------------De Gea--------------------------

---------------Jones------Ferdinand-------Vidic---------------


Rafael----Carrick--------Fellaini----------Baines

-------------------Kagawa----------------------------

--------------RVP-------------Rooney----------------

Carrick is good enough to effectively play the De Rossi role and nullify the false nine or the deep lying forward types, Fellaini as the workhorse and then Kagawa has more license to roam behind the front two. Rafael and Baines adding the width, I would absolutely love to see that formation!

Yeah I agree with that. I'd advocated it a couple of times as I believe it would allow us more control in the middle by putting Kagawa in there and allow Rooney to move further forward. But it won't happen at United as Moyes isn't exactly a tactical revolutionary and it'd need time to gel.

The interesting thing about that formation is that many mistakenly describe it as a defensive formation because you're effectively playing 5 defenders.

This is far from the case. That team is extremely attacking and I'd hazard a guess would score more and concede more than what we do now.

People are bent on stereotypes about formations. Catenaccio often had 3 cb's and Ze Germans were a well drilled outfit that employed 3 at the back as well. I guess that's where the stereotype comes from (in addition to having 5 defenders on the pitch).

Interestingly enough England played their best and most attacking football for years with 3 at the back under Glen Hoddle. But people in England seem to forget that.

In a sense we already play 3 at the back when attacking as Carrick sits back with Rio and Vidic and covers for the full backs bombing forward.

"The interesting thing about that formation is that many mistakenly describe it as a defensive formation because you're effectively playing 5 defenders. "

Spot on. The reason Mancini liked it was because it allowed more attacking players, not defensive. It was designed to help break teams down that played deep against us. The problem was, we didn't stick with it long enough or get the right players in for the defensive stability to happen. Nastasic was bought for it (as was Garcia to an extent as part of the midfield three), but Lescott wouldn't work in that formation - it needs three ball playing defenders to really work well.

That defensive stability and having ball playing defenders allows the wingbacks can get forward. Hoddle's England was what first made me think about it, then I had a conversation with this bloke after his talk about it too.

I highly doubt Moyes would ever do it either, it would be great to see it though. If Moyes had stayed at Everton and you had hired Martinez then there might have been a chance!

Didn't Liverpool do a similar formation to that against Stoke at Anfield, last season?