comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)



posted 6 minutes ago


Macca, personally I think 4231 and 4411 is just a matter of semantics.
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I sorta agree but the way United play with wingers, 2 midfielders, two forwards barely changes. It's 442 or 4411 end of in truth

I consider a 4231 narrower. The way Chelsea play for example. if Fergie preferred the 4231, he would have used kagawa and Nani far far more than the likes of Young Giggs and Valencia

Simple stuff for me. United do not play 4231. They just don't

Fair play. I probably look at formations in even simpler terms. I don't think they differ that much at all.

Formations don't designate tactics so you can't describe a formation as being narrow or wide when it's the players or tactics that decide this.

For me it's a pointless argument as to whether we do or do not play a certain formation.

I do agree that Kagawa hasn't really suited us out on the left, but not because it's a 4411 instead of a 4231, because that's irrelevant. But because it's not narrow, as you say.

Moyes played more narrow at Everton, however, so I think it's a little too early to write him off. Fergie, on the other hand, is the one who hasn't played to Kagawa's strengths.

Spot on Dazza

Beer o'clock now. Laters

Laters, enjoy the game.

comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 18 minutes ago
Fair play. I probably look at formations in even simpler terms. I don't think they differ that much at all.

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I agree.

This 4-2-3-1 mularky is just the same as 4-5-1

VC, yeah pretty much.

I kind of agree and I don't! There are subtle differences, particularly without the ball, and sometimes just down to who is used. You guys were slightly lopsided last year due to playing Wellbeck a lot on the left. I'll do a proper update later!

melton, I know what you mean but for me the subtle differences are based on the tactics the manager chooses which will be based on both the player in that position as well as the opponents.

For example, Madrid, Chelsea, Bayern and Dortmund can all be desrcribed as playing 4231. On the left hand side they have Ronaldo, Hazard, Ribery and Reus respectively.

Now for me that informs why while actually playing the same formation they are all subtley different because of the players they have playing there.

Perhaps a better example would be when Kagawa did actually play on the left for Dortmund. It was more narrow than with Reus who will play a lot wider. But the formation was the same.

That's my humble take on these formations anyway.

Welbeck and Lambert - the new SAS.

I agree Darren, but they are all different interpretations of a 4231, I would not consider any of those teams as playing a 442, which was more what I meant. Although it is a variant of 442, it is at the same time very different in that the two wings are pushed forward and all of those teams have one forward player and at least one wide player cutting inside. When United used to play Ronaldo, he started off on the right as that was absolutely a 442. Last year with playing Wellbeck on the left, for me you unintentionally played a lopsided 4231 at times, which is why the play could look disjointed and you struggled to have the possession that you normally do.

In the talk I went to, the coach was talking all about the four different stages within a football match and that being the main aspects that are covered within training nowadays. They are possession, out of possession, defensive transition and attacking transition.

You are absolutely right that different coaches will put their own interpretations on it, partly down to their own style and partly down to the players. Real play a deep 4231 as their offensive players are pants at defensive transition. Dortmund play a high pressing game as they have mobile cms and their whole team react in the attacking transition. Barca, when they play their 433 which morphs into a 4231 utilise the possession side more.

The formation themselves still have pros and cons though regardless of how they are interpreted, like we were talking about the 352 being vulnerable to wing play - it makes up for that by having no space for the wingers to actually cross into. Even the 442 that English teams basically exclusively used differed massively from team to team.

For United, I completely agree about what you said about Rooney earlier. He could be a deep striker in a 442 (as he was a few years ago), but he has changed his game slightly now. He's not quite an attacking midfielder either though in the mode of a Ozil or a Kagawa, although they play the same position, they play it very differently. A 352 would utilise all of his strengths and still allow for someone feeding him the ball from the middle, which is where he does best for me.

Bit disjointed reply that, as I've had a few beers, hope it all makes sense!

Great post, melton.

Thanks mate

One of the best chats I've had on here, wouldn't have imagined it would have been on a thread initially started about Robbie Savage!

Me too!

well that escalated pretty quickly

Melts

You and Dazza are an absolute pleasure to debate with

Posters like Rob and MU82 should take note imho

Macca

I debate very well with most people on here. Ones that don't act like Rooney is bigger than the club.