Kind of, Rob, but if you play 3 actual cb's there's more freedom of movement for the midfielders.
In melton's team it would allow Carrick and Fellaini to push much further up to support Kagawa, Rooney and RVP through the middle. If we suppose that Fellaini will play in midfield it would only be him providing the support for the other two rather than almost having an extra two midfielders do this.
Good post, melton.
I think with Serie A being made more available to British views they'll start to realise that it's not the defensive formation that it's perceived to be. People think it's a defensive league, it's far from it. And when they hear that some teams play 3 at the back it encourages that erroneous view of the league.
I think people are just too comfortable in their views about things and aren't open minded enough to change that view. Martinez, as you say, is a 352 man and Wigan were one of the most attacking teams around. They just had rubbish strikers like Aroooney Kone and Di Santo and couldn't defend so went down.
352, 442, 451, 433, 4231 are the most popular formations in football. Any one of these can be defensive or attacking. It's about the approach that the manager takes, not the formation that stipulates whether it's defensive or not.
That said, Mourinho's 460 formations are pretty defensive.
Bring back 235 I say
Remember that front 5 Spurs used to play with Anderton etc?
And who needed more than 2 defenders when you have Macari Hill Coppell Jordan and Pearson tearing at ya
That's the problem. No one is bold enough to try it out, a bog standard 442, it is easy to blame the players. A 352, it is all on the manager!
They did VC. Rodgers is a pretty good tactician, I didn't realise how wide his background was until he started at Liverpool.
Fair play to Martinez for trying it. You're right, he didn't have the quality of players, but they did still play very good football at times.
No one is bold enough to try it out
-------
This is the biggest problem with England. Too scared to try anything new.
I actually think the England national team should try it as well.
Maybe something like this could work:
Hart
Jones Cahill Smalling
Johnson Gerrard Carrick Wilshere Baines
Rooney Sturridge
Tried not to be too biased to United players but I thought Jones and Smalling would be our best bet for this formation. To be honest, I think they should partner each other for England. It's a very good partnership. They just don't play enough for us to warrant an England start.
No, i would choose the same players as well. That gives greater defensive stability to Baines and Johnson (who are both better going forward for me) and solves the "left hand side" problem.
I like it. Bring Hoddle back, that's the answer.
See? We've already figured out a formation for united that gets the best out of Kagawa and Rooney and also for England. 352 - it's the future!
Rooney is the reason I've thought for ages that's it's something that could be worth exploring for both United and England.
The way I see it is that Rooney is a 442 striker playing in a world that is dominated by 3 men midfields.
352 allows us to play Wayne alongside a striker without being outnumbered in the middle of the pitch.
As you say, I think Hoddle would try it out but won't ever happen with Hodgson, and sadly Hoddle will never get the England job.
I say sadly, but Hoddle could actually be a disaster. He's not managed at the highest level for years. He could be completely out of touch with the modern game. Queen Kenny was.
The Glenn Hoddle myth amuses me. Every time England play a boring style game people call for Glenn Hoddle to become the new manager or that he should take over the under 21's or even younger than that.
I won't deny the guy knew his stuff and (at times) England were attractive under his watch but his biggest problem was a problem that should mean he never coaches England again and it is his jealously of talented players and how he had some bizarre personal issues with them.
He had to be cajoled into playing Beckham, he dropped Gazza and most unforgivably of all, he omitted Le Tissier from the England squad even after he blasted in a hattrick against Russia just before the 1998 World Cup.
Perhaps he's grown up since then but if I was English I wouldn't want him sabotaging the chances of the best young talented English players out there depending on how insecure he was when he woke up that day.
I know what you mean to an extent, Rob. But don't think it's a myth that we played some good stuff under Hoddle and that he tried different things.
The guy made mistakes, of course, but why people speak about Hoddle is because he did what we're all crying out for an England manager to do: play some decent football and try new ideas.
That is pretty much the only reasoning I think their is for Hoddle. Because let's be honest, the guy is clearly not a top class manager.
I don't think these are the most unrealistic of things to expect from the manager. I'm unsure what the FA's attitude towards hiring another foreign manager is. But if it's against it, naturally people will veer towards Hoddle as he's English and has done it before. But as I said, it could be disastrous as he's probably out of touch with the modern game and wasn't a great manager in the first place.
The lack of good English coaches is as big a problem here as the pool of talent, or lack there of.
I know he's not English, and as much as it pains me to say it, I did and do want Rodgers to be involved with the national set up.
From a British coaching perspective he's breath of fresh air.
I agree England played some good stuff but his personality stopped some really good footballers from playing at the 98 World Cup and it's a massive shame.
Yeah, I agree. I think all it boils down to is that we have all been so disillusioned with the management since then (as we were with Hoddle also) that we're just desperate to see a bit of decent football that will make us fall in love with the England team again.
And given the players we now have in the squad we are a lot more grounded about our prospects in tournaments, so achieving that would be far more satisfying for our fans than scraping results and going out and the first big team we face.
Yeah, because that never happened under Hoddle
You're missing the point, Rob.
I was kidding! Darren, if I put a 'laugh' face next to anything I write it's me playing the fool
Sorry, my mistake.
That article that has just been posted on the United board is a great example of what the modern England fan has become.
England fans are like glory hunters. We aren't that good and our football is crap, so people don't care. Some even go as far as not wanting us to qualify. And are more interested in the other good foreign teams.
I find this very sad.
This is where the desperation for Hoddle comes from. If we could play even like Wigan it'd capture the hearts of the England fans once again.
I know the England fans from the lower leagues are fantastic, however.
Yeah, I never got that. United are pretty certain not to win the CL but all of us are still gonna support them this year.
I'm not English but i've lived here on and off for 25 years so I have some emotional investment with them and figure that a QF exit is hardly the worst thing ever. That's the top 8 teams in a world of 200.
I don't know what England fans expect really. The World Cup and tournaments like that are fun and you should always support your country.
Australia aren't gonna win it but we're sure gonna have fun playing in it.
The modern England fans mentality is 'if we're not gonna win it who cares?'.
Silly.
Rob, yeah I couldn't agree more.
The final part of that article was very damning. He'd rather watch Fellaini for Belgium than England because Gerrard or Lampard are going to be playing.
I know we all feel like doing that when Giggs starts for United but to actually do it is pretty pathetic for people that are meant to be fans.
know we all feel like doing that when Giggs starts for United but to actually do it is pretty pathetic for people that are meant to be fans.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Not all of us
I put that in there especially for you.
"England fans are like glory hunters. We aren't that good and our football is crap, so people don't care. Some even go as far as not wanting us to qualify. And are more interested in the other good foreign teams. "
I find it pitiful to be honest. The desire for success is just too much, I don't think people realise just how useless we were for a long time. It does tend to be fans that follow the bigger clubs that have that mindset as they are so used to it. As I said on a different thread a few days ago, it's the one side of becoming successful that doesn't sit comfortably with me.
And I might be in a minority, but I thought Hoddle was absolutely right not to take Gascoigne.
melton
As United fan I've been spoiled by success but that has never stopped me supporting England whatever state we've been in.
And as you rightly say, it's not as bad now as it's been in the past.
I admire the foreign teams for their football and their talent, but it would absolutely break my heard if we didn't qualify for the world cup.
On these boards I appear to be a part of a dying breed of fans that still loves international football.
The champions league may have overtaken the world cup in terms of the quality of the football. But I don't get excited by it like I do the world cup, even though United are usually among the favourites, and England not being there takes away that excitement for me even though we won't win it.
I wish United would try a 4231 now personally
The rigid 442 we played v Liverpool didn't work at all
Wasn't even a 4411 in truth. Welbeck and RVP pretty much played similar roles As the pitch coverage stats showed. Welbeck didn't play the 10 role anything like Rooney can and was a spectator for the most part. I think he only played around 30 or so passes I read
Fergie never bothered with a narrow 4231 because he just didn't really fancy Kags or Nani, preferring Giggs Young Valencia and Welbeck as ineffective flank players
Looks to me like Moyes is going down the same path so far
People saying we played 4231 under Fergie are talking out of their backsides
Macca, personally I think 4231 and 4411 is just a matter of semantics. Real Madrid are described as playing a 4231 but I wouldn't really call it narrow.
4231 can be played narrow or wide. I think people over think what a formation exactly is. It's merely a guideline. The tactics and personnel are what's more important to me.
I think it's too early to judge how Moyes wants to utilise the squad.
If we look at how he had Everton playing you could substitute Pienaar for Kagawa and Mirrallas for Nani, as in terms of style they're quite similar.
United could play the exact same formation but with a different set of players and you'd get two very different types of teams.
This, in my opinion, is down to mismanagement from Fergie in building his squad. Too many different types of players and no clear vision about how he wanted the team to evolve.
It's just a bunch of individuals, some talented some less so, with differing styles being thrown into a team from week to week.
To Fergie's credit he managed to get it to work. But for me one of the biggest reasons for having so many players under performing and our dire football.
Question is, can Moyes get away with?
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Robbie Savage, what a fool.
Page 4 of 5
posted on 6/9/13
Kind of, Rob, but if you play 3 actual cb's there's more freedom of movement for the midfielders.
In melton's team it would allow Carrick and Fellaini to push much further up to support Kagawa, Rooney and RVP through the middle. If we suppose that Fellaini will play in midfield it would only be him providing the support for the other two rather than almost having an extra two midfielders do this.
Good post, melton.
I think with Serie A being made more available to British views they'll start to realise that it's not the defensive formation that it's perceived to be. People think it's a defensive league, it's far from it. And when they hear that some teams play 3 at the back it encourages that erroneous view of the league.
I think people are just too comfortable in their views about things and aren't open minded enough to change that view. Martinez, as you say, is a 352 man and Wigan were one of the most attacking teams around. They just had rubbish strikers like Aroooney Kone and Di Santo and couldn't defend so went down.
352, 442, 451, 433, 4231 are the most popular formations in football. Any one of these can be defensive or attacking. It's about the approach that the manager takes, not the formation that stipulates whether it's defensive or not.
That said, Mourinho's 460 formations are pretty defensive.
posted on 6/9/13
Bring back 235 I say
Remember that front 5 Spurs used to play with Anderton etc?
And who needed more than 2 defenders when you have Macari Hill Coppell Jordan and Pearson tearing at ya
posted on 6/9/13
That's the problem. No one is bold enough to try it out, a bog standard 442, it is easy to blame the players. A 352, it is all on the manager!
They did VC. Rodgers is a pretty good tactician, I didn't realise how wide his background was until he started at Liverpool.
Fair play to Martinez for trying it. You're right, he didn't have the quality of players, but they did still play very good football at times.
posted on 6/9/13
No one is bold enough to try it out
-------
This is the biggest problem with England. Too scared to try anything new.
I actually think the England national team should try it as well.
Maybe something like this could work:
Hart
Jones Cahill Smalling
Johnson Gerrard Carrick Wilshere Baines
Rooney Sturridge
Tried not to be too biased to United players but I thought Jones and Smalling would be our best bet for this formation. To be honest, I think they should partner each other for England. It's a very good partnership. They just don't play enough for us to warrant an England start.
posted on 6/9/13
No, i would choose the same players as well. That gives greater defensive stability to Baines and Johnson (who are both better going forward for me) and solves the "left hand side" problem.
I like it. Bring Hoddle back, that's the answer.
posted on 6/9/13
See? We've already figured out a formation for united that gets the best out of Kagawa and Rooney and also for England. 352 - it's the future!
posted on 6/9/13
Rooney is the reason I've thought for ages that's it's something that could be worth exploring for both United and England.
The way I see it is that Rooney is a 442 striker playing in a world that is dominated by 3 men midfields.
352 allows us to play Wayne alongside a striker without being outnumbered in the middle of the pitch.
As you say, I think Hoddle would try it out but won't ever happen with Hodgson, and sadly Hoddle will never get the England job.
I say sadly, but Hoddle could actually be a disaster. He's not managed at the highest level for years. He could be completely out of touch with the modern game. Queen Kenny was.
posted on 6/9/13
The Glenn Hoddle myth amuses me. Every time England play a boring style game people call for Glenn Hoddle to become the new manager or that he should take over the under 21's or even younger than that.
I won't deny the guy knew his stuff and (at times) England were attractive under his watch but his biggest problem was a problem that should mean he never coaches England again and it is his jealously of talented players and how he had some bizarre personal issues with them.
He had to be cajoled into playing Beckham, he dropped Gazza and most unforgivably of all, he omitted Le Tissier from the England squad even after he blasted in a hattrick against Russia just before the 1998 World Cup.
Perhaps he's grown up since then but if I was English I wouldn't want him sabotaging the chances of the best young talented English players out there depending on how insecure he was when he woke up that day.
posted on 6/9/13
I know what you mean to an extent, Rob. But don't think it's a myth that we played some good stuff under Hoddle and that he tried different things.
The guy made mistakes, of course, but why people speak about Hoddle is because he did what we're all crying out for an England manager to do: play some decent football and try new ideas.
That is pretty much the only reasoning I think their is for Hoddle. Because let's be honest, the guy is clearly not a top class manager.
I don't think these are the most unrealistic of things to expect from the manager. I'm unsure what the FA's attitude towards hiring another foreign manager is. But if it's against it, naturally people will veer towards Hoddle as he's English and has done it before. But as I said, it could be disastrous as he's probably out of touch with the modern game and wasn't a great manager in the first place.
The lack of good English coaches is as big a problem here as the pool of talent, or lack there of.
I know he's not English, and as much as it pains me to say it, I did and do want Rodgers to be involved with the national set up.
From a British coaching perspective he's breath of fresh air.
posted on 6/9/13
I agree England played some good stuff but his personality stopped some really good footballers from playing at the 98 World Cup and it's a massive shame.
posted on 6/9/13
Yeah, I agree. I think all it boils down to is that we have all been so disillusioned with the management since then (as we were with Hoddle also) that we're just desperate to see a bit of decent football that will make us fall in love with the England team again.
And given the players we now have in the squad we are a lot more grounded about our prospects in tournaments, so achieving that would be far more satisfying for our fans than scraping results and going out and the first big team we face.
posted on 6/9/13
Yeah, because that never happened under Hoddle
posted on 6/9/13
You're missing the point, Rob.
posted on 6/9/13
I was kidding! Darren, if I put a 'laugh' face next to anything I write it's me playing the fool
posted on 6/9/13
Sorry, my mistake.
That article that has just been posted on the United board is a great example of what the modern England fan has become.
England fans are like glory hunters. We aren't that good and our football is crap, so people don't care. Some even go as far as not wanting us to qualify. And are more interested in the other good foreign teams.
I find this very sad.
This is where the desperation for Hoddle comes from. If we could play even like Wigan it'd capture the hearts of the England fans once again.
I know the England fans from the lower leagues are fantastic, however.
posted on 6/9/13
Yeah, I never got that. United are pretty certain not to win the CL but all of us are still gonna support them this year.
I'm not English but i've lived here on and off for 25 years so I have some emotional investment with them and figure that a QF exit is hardly the worst thing ever. That's the top 8 teams in a world of 200.
I don't know what England fans expect really. The World Cup and tournaments like that are fun and you should always support your country.
Australia aren't gonna win it but we're sure gonna have fun playing in it.
The modern England fans mentality is 'if we're not gonna win it who cares?'.
Silly.
posted on 6/9/13
Rob, yeah I couldn't agree more.
The final part of that article was very damning. He'd rather watch Fellaini for Belgium than England because Gerrard or Lampard are going to be playing.
I know we all feel like doing that when Giggs starts for United but to actually do it is pretty pathetic for people that are meant to be fans.
posted on 6/9/13
know we all feel like doing that when Giggs starts for United but to actually do it is pretty pathetic for people that are meant to be fans.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Not all of us
posted on 6/9/13
I put that in there especially for you.
posted on 6/9/13
Giggs' only fan!
posted on 6/9/13
"England fans are like glory hunters. We aren't that good and our football is crap, so people don't care. Some even go as far as not wanting us to qualify. And are more interested in the other good foreign teams. "
I find it pitiful to be honest. The desire for success is just too much, I don't think people realise just how useless we were for a long time. It does tend to be fans that follow the bigger clubs that have that mindset as they are so used to it. As I said on a different thread a few days ago, it's the one side of becoming successful that doesn't sit comfortably with me.
And I might be in a minority, but I thought Hoddle was absolutely right not to take Gascoigne.
posted on 6/9/13
melton
As United fan I've been spoiled by success but that has never stopped me supporting England whatever state we've been in.
And as you rightly say, it's not as bad now as it's been in the past.
I admire the foreign teams for their football and their talent, but it would absolutely break my heard if we didn't qualify for the world cup.
On these boards I appear to be a part of a dying breed of fans that still loves international football.
The champions league may have overtaken the world cup in terms of the quality of the football. But I don't get excited by it like I do the world cup, even though United are usually among the favourites, and England not being there takes away that excitement for me even though we won't win it.
posted on 6/9/13
I wish United would try a 4231 now personally
The rigid 442 we played v Liverpool didn't work at all
Wasn't even a 4411 in truth. Welbeck and RVP pretty much played similar roles As the pitch coverage stats showed. Welbeck didn't play the 10 role anything like Rooney can and was a spectator for the most part. I think he only played around 30 or so passes I read
Fergie never bothered with a narrow 4231 because he just didn't really fancy Kags or Nani, preferring Giggs Young Valencia and Welbeck as ineffective flank players
Looks to me like Moyes is going down the same path so far
People saying we played 4231 under Fergie are talking out of their backsides
posted on 6/9/13
Macca, personally I think 4231 and 4411 is just a matter of semantics. Real Madrid are described as playing a 4231 but I wouldn't really call it narrow.
4231 can be played narrow or wide. I think people over think what a formation exactly is. It's merely a guideline. The tactics and personnel are what's more important to me.
I think it's too early to judge how Moyes wants to utilise the squad.
If we look at how he had Everton playing you could substitute Pienaar for Kagawa and Mirrallas for Nani, as in terms of style they're quite similar.
United could play the exact same formation but with a different set of players and you'd get two very different types of teams.
This, in my opinion, is down to mismanagement from Fergie in building his squad. Too many different types of players and no clear vision about how he wanted the team to evolve.
It's just a bunch of individuals, some talented some less so, with differing styles being thrown into a team from week to week.
To Fergie's credit he managed to get it to work. But for me one of the biggest reasons for having so many players under performing and our dire football.
Question is, can Moyes get away with?
posted on 6/9/13
100
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