Likewise, I personally believe Cole is stronger at the back than Baines - hence he should play in those types of games

Conclusion: Winston needs to keep better company

Jay - The eyes are open, the mouth moves, but Mr Brain has long since departed. (U16498)

Why three seasons?

Why not two?

Because 3 seasons is all the information that was posted in this article. I can't be ársed to find the previous information.

Why not just this season? It's technically the most relevant indicator of form.

Jay - The eyes are open, the mouth moves, but Mr Brain has long since departed. (U16498)

Posted in this article by someone debating against me.

You can use stats in different ways, so don't pretend you've found something conclusive.

Last season, in the prem (so keeping an equal standard of opposition), Baines had 5 assists and Cole had 2.

2 of Baines' assists were from corners.

Suddenly, the idea that Cole offers 'very little' going forward in comparison to the wonder that is Baines, looks to be on dodgy ground.

Totally Charming & Wonderful (U6489)

Possibly, though one may argue that a part season analysis is a little unfair.

Statistics aside, eyes on the pitch tell me that Cole is part of our club problem of slow build ups and he isn't great at crossing or bombing up and down any more.

Baines would take corners for England, so why are you discounting those assists?

Totally Charming & Wonderful (U6489)

To be fair, that might be something to do with the way your team are playing and movement off the ball, rather than Cole.

But I agree stats are only part of the story and your own opinion will be judged on what you see.

I was just using the stats to rubbish some of the rather sensationalised posts in this thread.

I agree that it's unfair to blame Cole only, there are plenty of culprits in our team, arguably 3, 4 or even more of them are always playing at any one time but Cole is definitely one of them.

It's been a good thread. Football discussion on ja606, how refreshingly novel

Jay - The eyes are open, the mouth moves, but Mr Brain has long since departed. (U16498)

Because we're discussing whether Cole offers nothing going forward or not.

So I'm trying to show a comparison in open play between the two.

The stats suggest there's not a great deal of difference. Would you agree?

Now, if you think replacing a good defender with a weaker one for set pieces is a good idea, then that's your prerogative.

Personally speaking, with the quality we have in the side from a dead ball, I don't.

Totally Charming & Wonderful (U6489)

It'll never catch on

I'm not suggesting he offers nothing going forward - he just offers less than Baines, which is why I would prefer to see Baines in an attacking line up to Cole...

We have no one in the squad that can take a decent corner except for Rooney, and I don't know about you, I'd prefer him to be on the end of them than taking them.

I'll say what I said earlier in this thread, Baines really should have more assists than Cole given the way Everton play, at least last season under Moyes. He was able to get forward a lot more due to the way their midfield was set up, and there was greater chances of his crosses leading to a goal due to having effectively two target men up front at times (Jelavic and Fellaini running from midfield).

For Cole to even get close is pretty impressive for me, I was expecting around half (discounting corners and free kicks)

Jay - The eyes are open, the mouth moves, but Mr Brain has long since departed. (U16498)

Well you're debating something else then, because quite clearly I've agreed throughout the thread that Baines offers more.

It's the degree to which he offers more that's in question.

meltonblue (U10617)

Agreed, and one of them was a fairly long ball to Fellaini at Swansea.

I remember, because I was there!

comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
Jay - The eyes are open, the mouth moves, but Mr Brain has long since departed. (U16498)

Well you're debating something else then, because quite clearly I've agreed throughout the thread that Baines offers more.

It's the degree to which he offers more that's in question.
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I believe it is enough to warrant a starting place against teams we should be attacking more, which will depend entirely on our group. Though, I will say I wouldn't be disappointed to see either start. I don't think you can categorically state which one is better for any given game. I think form in to the world cup will have a lot to say about who plays when, too.

Jay - The eyes are open, the mouth moves, but Mr Brain has long since departed. (U16498)

I agree with much of that and yes, it's a conversation for when the groups are settled.

But given our seeding, I would deem it highly unlikely that we'll have more than one 'easy' game.

Added to the fact I'm a strong believer in not chopping and changing your defence, I am unlikely to change my view that Cole should be a nailed on starter!

Winston, how have England performed in the world cups that cole has played in? Maybe the fact that baines does infact offer more going forward it may be time for a change?

Don't think it's fair to blame Cole so heavily for England's woes over the last few tournaments Mr Reasonable

comment by Totally Charming & Wonderful (U6489)
posted 2 minutes ago
Don't think it's fair to blame Cole so heavily for England's woes over the last few tournaments Mr Reasonable
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Sorry you have taken my comment the wrong way, I am not blaming him but saying why not change it. People seem to think baines cant defend when he clearly can. So while a player ( who was world class but I dont think he is anymore imo). Maybe its time to give some one else a chance

Cole has always been one of England's more consistent performers even during this time of extreme expectation followed by disappointment. I am on your side but I don't think that basing it off past international experience is necessarily a good argument for replacing Cole in particular.

comment by Totally Charming & Wonderful (U6489)
posted 46 seconds ago
Cole has always been one of England's more consistent performers even during this time of extreme expectation followed by disappointment. I am on your side but I don't think that basing it off past international experience is necessarily a good argument for replacing Cole in particular.
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Fair enough, and as a blue I am probably biased but truly do feel baines is better than cole now.

I think he probably is too. I don't watch enough Everton but I do watch enough Chelsea to know that it is far from impossible to be better than Cole.