Take the world cup off them quite simply. Kick out their teams from Euro competitions.
It's unacceptable and too many people turning a blind eye and taking no action over this.

MrMortimer (U8234)

Well thanks for that insight, but I think we knew that already - didn't we?

I am asking for your opinion.

Is it right that Russia has different ideals and beliefs on this subject?

To answer your question; yes - I believe there are things in the world where we can expect an International standard.

The idea that black people (or other race and religions, of course) are inferior to white people is not an acceptable belief in this age, where we have an International community.

I don't think there's anything wrong in openly stating that, and I don't think Russia have a 'right' to that belief.

Of course they don't have a right to the belief that black people, or Asian or any color of people are superior to others and therefore are allowed to persecute those people in all sorts of different ways. Or that gay people should not have the same human rights.
We defeated the Gestapo who were intent on slaughtering, butchering everyone in their way that was not Aryan and therefore superior !

*Inferior that should read of course

Winston - did we know that? It seems to be that people on here think there is only one political belief system and one cultural ideal, they forget that in fact there are several. It is too easy to get lost in that and caught up in liberal ideology.

You have added the idea of religions to the discussion which is extremely interesting given that it is a belief... if someone is an orthodox Jew does he or she not believe he is of the chosen people? there is a predeterminist protestent belief (popular during the English civil war) that suggested some were predestined to go to heaven and others (particularly Catholics) not... this is inherently elitist... but this is OK because it is religion rather than politics?

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

comment by MrMortimer (U8234)
posted 32 minutes ago
Bedwetting cretin?

It's interesting you see this kind of abuse as acceptable, but racial abuse as unacceptable. Can I ask where the line is drawn?

Just to clarify people have a right to their own beliefs as long as they believe in the broad liberal principles of the west... is that right?
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It's a question of tolerance. If we are truly tolerant then we should tolerate all beliefs, even those which are intolerant of others?

No, of course not. Because that would allow intolerance to spread and flourish, and intolerance is the evil here.

It does make a presupposition - that people are allowed to believe what they like, but only express that within a tolerant context. Which is probably not the worst thing in the world.

Yes this does lead to a PC nightmare but I don't think that intolerance should be tolerated

It was a small portion of the CSKA crowd and the attacks of homos are carried out by an isolated group of extremists. To describe the issues as rife seems a bot rich, considering that before the euros we were persuaded prior to the euros that the Ukraine was less tolerant and than Auschwitz and more dangerous than being on the front line in Afghanistan... turned out it was all media agenda and exagerration.

Totally - yes it's a difficult one.

What is the solution to intolerance?
Education...?
I am not sure bans or fines will work. As more black players move to Russia the culture will develop tolerance I am sure - if you think of the early black players in England they had to suffer some incredible abuse.

I don't like the fact some abuse is considered acceptable though, the message would be far more effective if we aimed to show all abuse the red card... the worrying thing is, would people want that? I have a feeling many quite enjoy singing "you fat Bsss who ate all the pies" or other such offensive chants.

Winston, I've just published an article that overlaps with the topic of yours. I started writing it before yours appeared. Sorry! Anyway, I'd be interested to see your response to it.

Secondly, on this issue of 'Russians being allowed to have their ideals and beliefs' there are two points to make.

1) Let's be clear that Russia is an authoritarian country where laws are initiated top-down, the political process has very little input from the people, and mainstream debate is strongly influenced by the Kremlin. Russia until recently had relatively liberal laws on homosexuality. Putin has increasingly fostered a close relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church, in a partnership which gives the Church status, money and a strong influence on social policies in return for Putin's undemocratic regime being endorsed as legitimate and in line with Russian traditions. The anti-gay thing is a top-down initiative, instituted for cynical reasons, not an organic expression of Russian beliefs. By the way, just about every Russian I have met in Western Europe has had no trouble accepting liberal ideas on arrival. I very much doubt that bigotry is innate in anyone.

2) Different countries have their distinct cultures and beliefs. Meanwhile, throughout human history, cultures have interacted, compared and challenged each other's ideas. That is what is happening now. It is a natural process. Had our country not been exposed to the free flow of ideas, I'm sure we would still be clinging on to some very scary 'beliefs and ideals'.

MrMortimer (U8234)

I think you're getting confused with beliefs and actions.

Ultimately, you cannot control people's beliefs, and you could debate the finer points about whether specific religious beliefs are prejudiced.

But what we're talking about here is behaviour.

It is not liberal ideology to expect racism to be unacceptable across the world.

You seem reluctant to offer an opinion yourself.

The term 'hate crime' now is synonymous with racial/sexually oriented/gender abuse. These abuses are considered worse than others, perhaps because they attack aspects of the character that are deeply ingrained. As harsh as it is, to be ginger or overweight is not something that needs to be a permanent fixture. These other things are more deeply part of you.

I dunno. It's a weird topic.

He's French, He's Flash... Long time reader, first time poster... (U9335)

You think so?

I suggest you do a little reading - you'll find racist abuse is commonplace for a football match where black players are involved, and that's just football.

"What is the solution to intolerance?"

Well here's a start; don't award them major international football tournaments.

Red Russian (U4715)

I don't particularly disagree with any of what you've said, although I would question the latter part - as if this is some how a newer suggestion to the Russians than it is to others?

But the reality is that whether a case can be made for reasons why the country has not 'caught up' or why it's political system leads to such issues, it remains a problem.

So why are we awarding them the World Cup?

Winston, the World Cup's location is farcical, the fact that we are going to Qatar is surely enough evidence for that?

Exactly Winston.. 'that's just football.' Who are we to condemn a country of people for their views? When I say country, i of course mean a few idiots.

I can't believe that in 2013 you have explain to someone that it isn't acceptable to racial abuse people.

I hate it when football and politics mix.

Totally Charming & Wonderful (U6489)

Agreed - I have never seen a more blatant example of corruption.

It's embarrassing, and it'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.

He's French, He's Flash... Long time reader, first time poster... (U9335)

Except it's not a few idiots, is it?

I cannot relate to your point here.

So let's ignore it and let them do that they want? Is that it?

Tolerance is an inherently bigoted phrase, when used in the context of race. How does "tolerating" the colour of someone's not make you a bigot? If you have to tolerate it, you obviously don't accept it.

comment by MrMortimer (U8234)

posted 56 minutes ago

Vivec - no, not a Spurs fan.
Muppet... there's a lot of bad feeling on here - isn't it amazing how quick people are to use abuse?

Vidicschin - I haven't suggested racial abuse is acceptable, just trying to find out where the line is.

______________________________________


Yet on your other thread, you were more or less asking the question "what's all the fuss about?"

So you can throw hypocrite into the abuse arena as well

Winston

I'm not advocating awarding Russia the World Cup. I don't think I would have voted for Russia had I been a delegate. What I am saying, given the reality that they will host it, is a) I hope it will be a positive force, and b) we should be cautious about what we say about Russians in general based on their appalling stadium culture. I do think there is an element of demonisation going on. For example, if Spain had won the bid for the WC, I don't think we'd have seen the same level of objection based on racial abuse, even though it occurs there too and, as a country much closer to the liberal heart of Europe, has less excuses in terms of taking time to offload outdated attitudes.

...for example, I wonder whether you know enough about Russia as a whole to state that it is 'rife with racism and homophobia'. As someone who knows the country pretty well and generally despairs about the way it is going, I wouldn't use those words myself.