Winston, my point is that we can't hold the whole of Russia responsible for the actions of a few idiots. The Russian FA can't eliminate it from the stadiums any better than the English FA were equipped to do in the 70s and 80s. They've tried fines and lock outs. We can't then say 'OK Russia, you can't host a major competition because some of your football fans are racist.'

Hopefully, having a multitude of races in Russia to celebrate a fantastic footballing event will contribute to countering the issue. After all, football is a great unifying mechanism.

Saying to Russia "Your fans make monkey noises so you can't have the world cup" will just encourage the idiot racists to be even less tolerant..

The mentality of such idiots would be 'THEM EFFING BLACKS HAVE ROBBED US OF THE WORLD CUP.'

Red Russian (U4715)

If you want to look at the wider context and not the football stadia, how about starting with a situation where the level of racist attacks in Russia has been described by Amnesty International as 'out of control'?

I'm not really qualified to say whether the level of racism in Russia is equalled by Spain, although it's an interesting point and I'll read up on it.

But I have to say, I don't buy into the hope that the World Cup will be a positive force.

The World Cup is a prestigious event, and it's an honour for countries to host it.

I don't think the idea of giving it to countries that are 'misbehaving' in the hope that it helps improve their behaviour is a good one.

He's French, He's Flash... Long time reader, first time poster... (U9335)

With all due respect, if you think this is a matter of a few people in a stadium in Russia, then I suggest you research the matter in a little more detail.

If it were, I'd tend to agree with you.

The code phrase at all matches is "Say No to Racism".
Standing apart from whether a country's people have, or are entitled to have, their own beliefs and prejudices, it does seem rather strange that when that country enters an international competition which operates under that banner, there is not an enforcement of that code of conduct, at least while the teams are playing.
Oterwise, what's the point?
Yet another bloody cosmetic soundbite?

Red Russian (U4715)

I won't attempt to pass of my findings as fact, but after they were awarded the WC I have read up on the country quite a bit.

What I have read disturbed me.

Government polls indicated that that a third of Russians would vote for an ultra unionist party, if it were legal!

And what about the reaction to Miss Russia - who I believe was mixed race? A large amount of the population were raging, by all accounts!

Winston, a few thousand in a country with a population of 142 million does not justify stripping a country of the World Cup.

The World Cup could do wonderful things on both a social and economic level for a country like Russia.

He's French, He's Flash... Long time reader, first time poster... (U9335)

A few thousand?

Please, enough of this lazy argument. Please go and do your research before trying to discredit my opinion.

Football can be a tool to fight hate, for the most part. Some people will never change, but some don't know any better and will be able to see the error's of their ways if educated about/integrated with different cultures.

The world cup going to these countries can be a good thing. Say if Brazil fans and Neymar light up the Russian world cup, some might start to think a little bit differently and question the hate for other races, because it's been put on their doorstep. It would also cause wide spread disdain if they were abused.

Sport has changed people's perceptions of these issues for years and with the cultural aspects that go along with the world cup, it will be beneficial for these countries as long as it is policed well.

Hate thrives on rejection and denial, taking the World Cup out of these countries as a punishment will only make it worse

Kayal's Pal: The Galloping, Greek, God, Georgios! (U13244)

It's an interesting ideal that you propose.

Personally, I think it's utterly flawed. It's 'hugging a hoody' on a grand scale.

You may well achieve your objectives with a small percentage of the bigots, but it's unlikely to help in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion.

A few thousand?

Please, enough of this lazy argument. Please go and do your research before trying to discredit my opinion.

-

Not trying to discredit your biased opinion. Just offering up reasons why it would be unjust to strip them of the World Cup.

I imagine you were posing these same arguments in support of stripping the Ukraine of the euros.

You want figure, so I would ask for proof from you that the majority of Russian football fans are racists.

Proof mind you, not a pixelated youtube clip of a few hundred angry Russian fans.

Russia is a huge country of over 140m people with a rich sporting tradition and they've not hosted the WC. Why on earth don't they deserve to host the WC and why is their selection only down to bribery? I'd think you Brits would embarrass yourselves less after the ridiculous fear mongering concerning South Africa, Ukraine and Poland hosting the last WC and Euros. Some obviously never learn.

You've got to be really deluded if you think the world are so in love with you that tiny Russia could only beat you to a bid with bribery. Get over it, ffs.

Russia is a huge country of over 140m people with a rich sporting tradition and they've not hosted the WC. Why on earth don't they deserve to host the WC and why is their selection only down to bribery? I'd think you Brits would embarrass yourselves less after the ridiculous fear mongering concerning South Africa, Ukraine and Poland hosting the last WC and Euros. Some obviously never learn.

You've got to be really deluded if you think the world are so in love with you that tiny Russia could only beat you to a bid with bribery. Get over it, ffs.

I'd think you Brits would embarrass yourselves less after the ridiculous fear mongering concerning South Africa, Ukraine and Poland hosting the last WC and Euros. Some obviously never learn.

-

He's French, He's Flash... Long time reader, first time poster... (U9335)

Offering reasons based on silly statistics.

"I would ask for proof from you that the majority of Russian football fans are racists"

So you've decided that we have to prove that the majority are racist before anything can be done.

A ridiculous suggestion.

How does one go about proving such a statistic?

Listen, you don't have a clue what you're talking about - as demonstrated by:

a) claiming I want to WC stripped from Russia because of a few thousand people
b) yet again, referring to football fans, as if the behaviour of the CSKA fans is the basis for my opinion.

Go away, research the subject, and maybe we can then have a discussion.

Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)

This has nothing to do with England not being chosen.

Hope this helps.

"I would ask for proof from you that the majority of Russian football fans are racists"

So you've decided that we have to prove that the majority are racist before anything can be done.

-

Well, yes. Otherwise you are punishing the majority for the actions of the minority...

It's like in High School when the teacher would keep the whole class behind because two or three individuals were misbehaving...

Societies don't evolve at the same pace. Unlike England, the Russians haven't been globe-trotting colonial and slave masters. Their society is not nearly as mixed and has a history of being pretty insular. It's no surprise they're not as progressive or liberal. It doesn't make them inherently evil racists. It's not like they're much worse than your average Italian or Spaniard. Yet, no one would raise any alarm about racist problems in those societies.

He's French, He's Flash... Long time reader, first time poster... (U9335)

So you're trying to tie things up in neat little boxes.

I would laugh at the fact that you'd deem it absolutely fine if 49% of a country were racist, however your point is rather more flawed than that...

... how does one go about quantifying the number of 'racists' in a country?

Winston - so you can believe what you want as long as you act like you are from the west? What value is the freedom of belief then?

That's like telling a homosxual he has every right to be gay, but he is not allowed to have sx with men.

Of course it is liberal ideology!

Not reluctant to offer my own opinion, I do not believe a person is superior or inferior because of the colour of their skin. I am uneasy with cultural imperialism though and don't believe the West has a right to impose its will on other cultures.

Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)

Your first comment suggests that things are getting better... I would refute that.

I'm not suggesting they are inherently evil racists.

I am saying that I do not think the country should be awarded a World Cup.

But given your first post, I'm assuming you're not here for reasoned debate, are you?

So you're trying to tie things up in neat little boxes.

-

No, I am just picking holes in your biased argument.

However, if you want to press the issue, are you saying that it is right to punish the majority of decent people for the actions of the minority? Really?

Keept it Greasey - Lot's of interesting questions are brought up from this debate - one of them is why people feel racism is worse than some other forms of abuse.

I don't think that is hypocritical.

MrMortimer (U8234)

So now you are trying to tell me that not being racist is a western thing, that we should not expect of others?

MrMortimer (U8234)

Why is it worse?

Because true racism leads to prejudice against specific groups of people in the form of behaviour i.e. treated differently, less rights etc.

Abuse tends to be insults and name calling.