Winston - the notion of equality is not something shared by all peoples and all cultures... do you not think that is fair to say?

There are certain contradictions within Western Democracies, but that is a new discussion altogether.


Winston - racial abuse is worse because it leads to prejudice and people being treated differently. Does it automatically?
And are you trying to say that abuse that isn't racist doesn't lead to people being treated differently?

If it isn't racial then it is just insults and name calling...??? So footballers being abused should have to put up with that?

Sheriff - Yes we did hear all that before the Euros but the fact still remains that Ukraine and Poland have big issue with racism in their society. Are you advocating as seems that we just turn a blind eye as usual and nothing is done. Yaya Toure needs applauding for his dignified response but it IS actually action that is needed to defeat these racists. It's a continual fight to lessen and ideally eradicate racism at all levels of society, not just football.

MrMortimer (U8234)

Are you really wishing to debate why racism is worse than insults?

There is a difference between racial abuse and racism.

Racial abuse, in my opinion, is something that can be used in the heat of the moment by someone that doesn't actually hold racist beliefs.

Racism is, in my opinion, a genuine belief that people of a particular race/skin colour etc. are inferior.

"I think, as the poster beforehand alluded to, that giving a platform to the racists and bigots is not the correct thing to do.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it."

Entirely meaningless phrase. Basically you're just saying your opinion is that people should have no right to the opinion you believe to be entitled to.

Having an opinion doesn't make it relevant. Let racists voice their opinion and try to justify it, people will quickly realise that they are morons. They'll do more against their own cause than for it.... In my opinion

Winston - no, I'm trying to separate out why racial abuse is worse than other forms of abuse.
Agreed racial abuse is something that can be used in the heat of the moment, it has no meaning and it is possible to be said without any reference to any historical event or act. I would imagine it is normally said for the sole purpose of trying to offend... in the same way that telling someone to "eff off" is. There is no meaning behind it. In that sense, why is it worse than other forms of abuse?

Racism, the genuine belief of inferiority, and acts like refusing people work because of their skin colour, is completely separate - and of course much more serious.

Is a monkey chant not the former rather than the latter?

Kayal's Pal: The Galloping, Greek, God, Georgios! (U13244)

What?

You're trying to equate my right to an opinion about whether Russia should host the WC, with the right of a racist to voice their opinion about black people?

Seriously?

MrMortimer (U8234)

I didn't say it was worse.

If you pushed me on it, I'd say it's seen as worse because it's difficult to distinguish between someone trying to provoke a reaction and someone who has genuinely racist views.

Racism is not separate to this debate, because as I have explained, my views re: Russia are based on far more than the monkey chants heard last night.

Kayal - actually I think you could be right.
Racism continues to exist because it isn't something that can be discussed openly... and actually the subject of racism is shrouded by red tape and ignorance.
We should let people talk about it and have faith that people are enlightened enough to see it for what it is.

I think you missed the point entirely...

Are you advocating
as seems that we just turn a
blind eye as usual and nothing is
done.
---------

Erm...it really isn't up to FIFA to delve into the politics of legislating and policeing Russian or Ukrainian or Polish society. Their duty is to ensure a successful tournament devoid of incident. This was achieved in Poland and Ukraine and will be achieved in Russia. It's not FIFA's business to worry about the politics of the general society before and after.

Kayal's Pal: The Galloping, Greek, God, Georgios! (U13244)

Feel free to explain.

"It's not FIFA's business to worry about the politics of the general society before and after"

So, should there be no consideration for racial prejudice existing in countries considered for hosting the World Cup, in your opinion?

Sheriff

It's FIFA's responsibility to ensure their players (black players in this particular case) aren't subject to this sort of abuse when they arrive at the World Cup.

So of course they have every right to investigate and impose the correct sanctions.

Monkey chants isn't just spur-of-moment racial abuse to take the mickey. Anybody willing to sink low enough to do it is clearly racist.

History is peppered with racist speeches, rallies igniting racial hatred, racist organisations and giving them a platform has not helped in any way shape or form. From Slavery to Gestapo to the KKK to BM to EDL.

Winston - but didn't you say they were entitled to their views and it was actions that mattered?
If someone is guilty of abuse they are guilty of abuse, they are not guilty of being racist...
Would you assume someone who criticises someone for being fat is size-ist?

I understand you are saying the monkey chants are the thin end of the wedge in Russia - but you can't suggest you'd punish a club in Russia for racism whilst let a club in England off because it's just banter or provoking a reaction?

Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)

Maybe, although remember the guy at Chelsea last year caught on camera?

I reckon he was just a drunken idiot trying to insult someone, rather than having genuinely racist views.

I have seen both in action, sadly, and you can often spot the difference!

Football_ bloodyhell - I think that's open to debate.

Sheriff - I disagree, I don't think that is necessarily true. Someone could perform a monkey chant without being racist. Particularly if you see the player getting annoyed by it.

MrMortimer (U8234)

You are completely misinterpreting my points.

You cannot act upon racist views, only actions. If someone expresses their views in the form of speech, then you can do something about it. That's my point.

I didn't say that a club in England should be let off for 'banter' - stop making things up.

So, should there be no
consideration for racial prejudice
existing in countries considered
for hosting the World Cup, in
your opinion?
-----------

Except in extreme cases like apartheid or a genocidal cull of a group, I'd advocate keeping their nose out of politics as long as the safety of visitors is assured. Simple. Majority of African, Middle Eastern, Asian and Latin American countries are homophobic. I wouldn't advocate denying them hosting rights on that basis.

Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)

Fair enough, then we shall disagree on that.

I think FIFA is a big enough organisation that they can stand up to things like this, rather than burying their head and not getting involved.

Agreed Winston - people act differently in crowds...
In Glasgow they had what were known as the 90 minute bigots - people would go to the match and cheer their team and abuse the other, sing songs and shout... a lot of the people didn't understand or believe in what was being said but it was just part of the pantomime of the game. Often Monday morning back at work Catholics and Protestants would work side by side again.

Well you said you are entitled to your opinion as a justification of taking away other people's opinion. Everyone gets an opinion or nobody does.

Mr Mortimer Nobody has actually tackled racism, it's so easy to point out how ludicrous and laughable most discriminatory beliefs are if you make people actually explain them. The world is too afraid of intellectual confrontation and would rather force people to "tolerate" than teach them to "accept"

Winston - I'm not making things up, I'm just trying to find out where the line is.

If racial abuse is said without any true racist belief behind it, why is it worse than another form of abuse? If It isn't why should it be punished any worse than another form of abuse?

I don't think you can argue that Russian racial abuse should be treated differently from racial abuse in this country just because Russian culture is different and you believe it to be more likely that it is genuinely racist.

Kayal's Pal: The Galloping, Greek, God, Georgios! (U13244)

When did I say that other people's opinion should be taken away?