History is peppered with racist speeches, rallies igniting racial hatred, racist organisations and giving them a platform has not helped in any way shape or form. From Slavery to Gestapo to the KKK to BM to EDL.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not giving them a platform that caused the problems, it's the inability to challenge them

It's FIFA's responsibility to ensure
their players (black players in this
particular case) aren't subject to
this sort of abuse when they
arrive at the World Cup.
---------

Of course. And they've not failed at it. Host nations of athletic meets, Olympics, World Cups etc are always at their best behaviour. I'm pretty sure FIFA, the local organising commitee, the Russian government and the citizens would ensure a successful hosting. I've seen enough of this anxiety and fear-mongering before tournaments to know nothing ever comes of it.

MrMortimer (U8234)

I answered your first question. Here it is, in case you missed it:

I didn't say it was worse.

If you pushed me on it, I'd say it's seen as worse because it's difficult to distinguish between someone trying to provoke a reaction and someone who has genuinely racist views.



"I don't think you can argue that Russian racial abuse should be treated differently from racial abuse in this country just because Russian culture is different and you believe it to be more likely that it is genuinely racist. "

I never said anything of the sort.

Ultimately, I think it's right that racial abuse is treated more seriously than calling someone 'fatty' - wherever in the world you are.

comment by Totally Charming & Wonderful (U6489)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
The term 'hate crime' now is synonymous with racial/sexually oriented/gender abuse. These abuses are considered worse than others, perhaps because they attack aspects of the character that are deeply ingrained. As harsh as it is, to be ginger or overweight is not something that needs to be a permanent fixture. These other things are more deeply part of you.

I dunno. It's a weird topic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Still relevant

It's not giving them a platform that caused the problems, it's the inability to challenge them ..

Kayal the platform certainly gave them coverage to spread their bile and increase their numbers by attracting more members/newcomers etc

You said that racist shouldn't be given a platform, based on an opinion. If you refuse someone a platform based on an opinion, you can't expect to have your own right to an opinion universally accepted. Is what I'm saying.

Either everyone gets a say or nobody does, but their opinion shouldn't be a right. People have to challenge an opinion, so that people can't hide behind the phrase "I'm entitled to my opinion"

Kayal's Pal: The Galloping, Greek, God, Georgios! (U13244)

Racists shouldn't be given a platform because they are racist.

That's my opinion.

I'm not insisting people agree with me, am I?

And no, not everybody gets a say. If you have something racist to say, you're not allowed to say it.

That's the law in the this country, so take your complaints up with government.

comment by Kayal's Pal: The Galloping, Greek, God, ... (U13244)
posted 1 minute ago
You said that racist shouldn't be given a platform, based on an opinion. If you refuse someone a platform based on an opinion, you can't expect to have your own right to an opinion universally accepted. Is what I'm saying.

Either everyone gets a say or nobody does, but their opinion shouldn't be a right. People have to challenge an opinion, so that people can't hide behind the phrase "I'm entitled to my opinion"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Coming back round to the question of 'tolerance' for want of a better word.

There is a paradox, where you ask 'to be truly tolerant doesn't one have to tolerate intolerance'?

Answer of course being yes, you do. In theory.

This isn't theory. We don't have to tolerate intolerance.

But if you don't tolerate intolerance... you are guilty of the very thing you are criticising, intolerance...

MrM, quite frankly I don't give a damn about being 'intolerant of the intolerant'

It's the only way to beat the paradox and I am fine with that. Being actively intolerant of others is not like being black or gay, is it?

Being intolerant towards **

'Tolerate' is probably the wrong word for this discussion

The inability to challenge them is what allowed them to have their beliefs taken seriously. Discredit them on their platform and people won't take them seriously.

Not saying they should have a platform to themselves, nobody should.

Tolerance is an inherently bigoted phrase, when used in the context of race. How does "tolerating" the colour of someone's not make you a bigot? If you have to tolerate it, you obviously don't accept it.

Kayal hence I said it's probably the wrong word for the discussion. Maybe acceptance is a better word.

And no, not everybody gets a say. If you have something racist to say, you're not allowed to say it.

That's the law in the this country, so take your complaints up with government.
-----------------------------------------------------
What about Russia?

Winston - Why is racial abuse (which as you have said can be un-linked to genuine racism and said just in the heat of the moment to provoke a response) treated more seriously than abuse of fat people (when you believe it to be no worse)?

MrMortimer (U8234)

I think that's common sense gone mad.

It's not an opinion that we won't tolerate, it's something that is unacceptable in our society.

Kayal's Pal: The Galloping, Greek, God, Georgios! (U13244)

I disagree.

Take Nick Griffin on Question Time.

He came out with more sympathisers after the event, and generally the event went quite well for him.

TC&W

The point is that what we are told to strive for is tolerance, fack that. Strive for complete acceptance, if that means upsetting people for a wee bit then so be it.

Kayal's Pal: The Galloping, Greek, God, Georgios! (U13244)

I think you'll find racism is still illegal in Russia as well.

MrMortimer (U8234)

Because there's no way of knowing whether the racial insult is part of a genuine prejudice.

Therefore it's assumed that it is.

What about Russia's anti-gay laws?

Kayal's Pal: The Galloping, Greek, God, Georgios! (U13244)

What about them?

Just because it's the law, does that automatically make it the right decision?

Kayal's Pal: The Galloping, Greek, God, Georgios! (U13244)

That's not what I said is it?

I believe we were discussing your entitlement to voice an opinion.

You are not entitled to voice an opinion that is racially prejudiced.

Which kinda ruins your original point.