Godfather will always find a way to defend Wenger. Fack we could go Another 10 years like this and still he will find a way
comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 18 minutes ago
"I have said that pretty much all the english wins
of the champions league have been lucky and that even the greatest manager of all time was
very fortunate to ever have the champions league on his cv, winning it is pretty much a lottery even if you have the best
team on the planet."
This is nonsense. Total nonsense. Fergie created 2 highly resilient teams who fight to the last and deservedly won the competition in conditions where Arsenal would have mentally and physically capitulated. There was nothing lucky about it. That's the failure mentality that makes us the mental midgets we are. Arsenal are CL failures. It's clear to anyone who isn't in denial. We couldn't even make the quarters of the competition until our 6th attempt. Something Spurs did at their first attempt. Teams like Leeds and Chelsea made the semis in their first attempt. I final and 2 semis in 17 years of CL footy is mediocre.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fergie created 2 fantastic teams with all the strengths you mentionned but in the end luck helped them on both occasions. At the point before their luck hit both times you would have probably got 50/1 odds at the bookie for them to win the champions league. Just before Chelsea's pen or with a min to go in 99 (or even when Bayern missed gilt edge chances to go 2 up. Same for Chelsea when they won it.
Bascially a lot out of the managers control must go your way to win the CL but one of the things they can control is being in the comp in the first place
Godfather you are fúcking clueless
Burney don't have the wage bill we do. Their manager doesn't earn £8m a year like Wenger. They don't have the quality in the squad, the facilities, etc. It's just a wrong example in every level!
Now if fergie had gone through 17 years without winning a single European tournament, that would be a failure. It's the same as Wenger. We couldn't win the CL with a team of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires, Cesc, Gilberto, Ljunberg, Campbell, Cole, Lehmann. That is pathetic
"You are allowed to want Wenger out, whilst accepting some of his success you know."
Wenger hasn't had any success in Europe. Unless you REALLY ACTUALLY think qualifying to the knockout stages is actually success?!
"If Burnley were in the champions league for 20 years but hadnt won it would you be calling thier
manager a failure?"
It's a pointless example. Arsenal have been a big name in Europe since the 90's and have had a great collection of some of the PL's best ever players. They are massive underachievers in Europe. We're the only members of the previous "Sky 4" who have never won the CL and not made more than one final. It's not just the fact Arsenal never won it. Let me repeat it again: Arsenal couldn't cross the 2nd round of the competition for 5 years. It took them till the "Invincibles" season to reach the quarters at the 6th attempt - and then they bottled it against Chelsea at home. Clear failure. Why are you so much in denial?
Fergie is actually the second most successful manager in the CL, after Ancelotti, and yet you could argue that he's underachieved in the tournament - despite winning it twice, making two more finals and numerous semis.
Wenger has made two semis and a final in that time. For a manager of his reputation that's not good.
Wenger has a good base level in the competition where it'll see him always get out of the group, which isn't to be snuffed at. However, you're making out like Arsenal are some diddy club that have overachieved in doing so when in actual fact they should be doing better than that - especially the team with Henry, Viera, Bergkamp and Pires at their peak.
Liverpool, Chelsea and United have all performed better in the CL than Arsenal. Wenger may have achieved a level of consistency that they haven't - we've all been out in the group stages - but they've all done better when it actually comes to the important stuff in the latter stages.
I
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Wenger has to be praised for firstly making it into the CL every year for 17 years and then his other knockout stage record.
But don't make out that it anywhere near as significant as actually winning it. Arsenal are in the CL to make up the numbers. That's a simple, undeniable fact. And it's been a fact since Wenger treated the CL as a cash making opportunity rather than trophy winning one.
when did we lose to Schalke in the knockout stages?
Serial, it's a great record but it does appear to be an achievement that is defining him in Europe.
A good few teams certainly underachieved. Madrid went through a horrible run until Maureen restored their competitiveness in the competition. Barca are the most successful side in the CL over the last decade, but a team vying for the G.O.A.T status should probably have won at least one more. Juve were the greatest team of the 90's but bottled 3 finals against inferior Madrid, Ajax and Dortmund sides - and had a shocker in the '99 semis against Man U when they should have closed it out. Arsenal are up there though. It's ridiculous that a team that have been English champions 13 times have never won it - and Wenger had the best chance to correct that record. No manager before him had the luxury of qualifying for Europe's premier competition by simply winning the top 4 cup.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 1 second ago
Serial, it's a great record but it does appear to be an achievement that is defining him in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wenger himself uses the "achievement" as some sort of a Ace, whenever questioned about his record in Europe. It's really bizarre why he continues to trump it around, when all it does is highlight his failure.
I mean, Wenger surely must know he's been a failure in Europe, and simply qualifying for the competition isn't a sufficient enough achievement to write on his CV.
I really can't explain it, apart from perhaps he is as delusional as he sounds. As with his entire management philosophy, he probably does think if he sticks at it long enough, the balance of probabilities dictates that he'll win it eventually.
Sigh, this is getting boring now tbh
"Burney don't have the wage bill we do. Their manager doesn't earn £8m a year like Wenger. They don't have the quality in the squad, the facilities, etc. It's just a wrong example in every level!"
Do you think we have the same resources and personel as the best in Europe? Have we ever started a season favourite to win the champions league? I use the Burnley example which is an extreme for a reason Tbh Im leaving this point now as you have failed to understand this point no matter what ways Ive tried to explain. I thought it was an easy concept to grasp but obviously its not and i cant be bothered to keep trying
"Now if fergie had gone through 17 years without winning a single European tournament, that would be a failure. It's the same as Wenger. We couldn't win the CL with a team of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires, Cesc, Gilberto, Ljunberg, Campbell, Cole, Lehmann. That is pathetic "
United even today are on a par with Real and Barca in terms of revenue, personel and standing in world football. We are not, and never have been, despite what you entitled mind tells you. We are on our way hopefully, but we are not there yet. Fergie will have been expected to win the CL In over 20 years Fergie won 2 european trophies. That is how difficult and lucky you need to be to win it. I have seen teams with Ronaldo, Zidane, etc fail to win it, its just how the competion is. Apart from possibly 2 years (2002/2003 and 2003/2004) we have not had a squad that was expected win anything. Even at our best we still had to contend wtih the likes of real madrid with ronaldo zidane. So stop naming dropping former gooners to make it look as if we should have won as if we were the best or something.
We are definitely on our way to winning the CL. Maybe in the next 5-10 years. We have a good squad which is yet to peak. An excellent stadium, excellent youth/training facilities. Excellent financial position which strengthens every season. And Wenger will be gone in 2017. We can definitely challenge for the CL but not yet.
Do you think we have the same resources and personel as the best in Europe
------------------
What, like the past two finalists, Dortmund and Atletico Madrid?!
A.Madrid have a European record that puts us to shame. And they haven't half our resources. Stop embarrassing yourself Godfather
comment by Bats (U18355)
posted 1 minute ago
We are definitely on our way to winning the CL. Maybe in the next 5-10 years. We have a good squad which is yet to peak. An excellent stadium, excellent youth/training facilities. Excellent financial position which strengthens every season. And Wenger will be gone in 2017. We can definitely challenge for the CL but not yet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand some of your optimism but I still got some doubt about it. As much as Wenger been guilty for achiachieving nothing in the past few years, our board has been as bad if not worse for keeping pressure on him.
I'd wait until knowing Wenger replacement before making such claim. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a completely unproven name after his tenure.
Arsenal didn't have to compete with Zidane and Ronaldo's Madrid when they were at their peak. You lost before you played them.
You played them in 06 when you were past their best and beat them.
I don't really understand how anyone can make excuses for Wenger in Europe.
Especially as you seem to rate Wenger highly. If Wenger was as good as you seem to believe I'm surprised you don't think he should have done better than he has - be that against teams you should be or teams that are better than you.
Looking at the wider picture apart from regularly participating in a competition we have next to no chance of winning, Arsenal’s European pedigree has been poor.
With the player’s AW has had at his disposal during his tenure, he should have fared better.
Until Wenger learn how to use his full squad, he won't win the CL (or even the PL for that matter). Using the same XI for 50+ game never gonna work.
IronicaIly Mourinho is making the same mistake this season. If he doesn't buy any player in January, I wouldn't be surprised if Chelsea win fake all
Just look at each qualifying group objectionably.
How many times should you have qualified? How many times have you qualified. 15 of 15 I imagine.
He has tried regular rotations... And that didn't work!
We have never had a balanced squad with the quality to rotate successfully, not even in the early 2000s.
comment by Cinciwolf-----look at me, I am talking!! (U11551)
posted 1 minute ago
Just look at each qualifying group objectionably.
How many times should you have qualified? How many times have you qualified. 15 of 15 I imagine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We have been tipped to go out many times.
Napoli, Dortmund and Marseille season especially. Some had us to finish bottom of that!
The early CL squads we had was good enough to win the CL, let alone qualify for the knockout rounds. That quality in the squad did boost our coefficient, so lately we've been seeded as number 1, even though our quality was probably 2nd or 3rd tier.
With the new seeding system, we'll struggle to make it past the group stages.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 48 seconds ago
He has tried regular rotations... And that didn't work!
We have never had a balanced squad with the quality to rotate successfully, not even in the early 2000s.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO Wenger's approach to European football was fully exposed in a host of our knockout games, (United, Barca, and Milan spring to mind) in that against opposition with that sort of class up front the expansive ‘hung-ho’ approach disintegrates time and again.
We always love to....
█.................█..........█
█...............█..█........█
█augh.......█ █ █ █t....█iverpool
█............█........█.....█
█ █ █ █...█...........█...█ █ █ █
If Arsenal played on the counter more instead of playing high up so much there's a chance you could do damage, even with your lamppost's up front
Sign in if you want to comment
Laugh at Liverpool...really?
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posted on 10/12/14
Godfather will always find a way to defend Wenger. Fack we could go Another 10 years like this and still he will find a way
posted on 10/12/14
comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 18 minutes ago
"I have said that pretty much all the english wins
of the champions league have been lucky and that even the greatest manager of all time was
very fortunate to ever have the champions league on his cv, winning it is pretty much a lottery even if you have the best
team on the planet."
This is nonsense. Total nonsense. Fergie created 2 highly resilient teams who fight to the last and deservedly won the competition in conditions where Arsenal would have mentally and physically capitulated. There was nothing lucky about it. That's the failure mentality that makes us the mental midgets we are. Arsenal are CL failures. It's clear to anyone who isn't in denial. We couldn't even make the quarters of the competition until our 6th attempt. Something Spurs did at their first attempt. Teams like Leeds and Chelsea made the semis in their first attempt. I final and 2 semis in 17 years of CL footy is mediocre.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fergie created 2 fantastic teams with all the strengths you mentionned but in the end luck helped them on both occasions. At the point before their luck hit both times you would have probably got 50/1 odds at the bookie for them to win the champions league. Just before Chelsea's pen or with a min to go in 99 (or even when Bayern missed gilt edge chances to go 2 up. Same for Chelsea when they won it.
Bascially a lot out of the managers control must go your way to win the CL but one of the things they can control is being in the comp in the first place
posted on 10/12/14
Godfather you are fúcking clueless
Burney don't have the wage bill we do. Their manager doesn't earn £8m a year like Wenger. They don't have the quality in the squad, the facilities, etc. It's just a wrong example in every level!
Now if fergie had gone through 17 years without winning a single European tournament, that would be a failure. It's the same as Wenger. We couldn't win the CL with a team of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires, Cesc, Gilberto, Ljunberg, Campbell, Cole, Lehmann. That is pathetic
"You are allowed to want Wenger out, whilst accepting some of his success you know."
Wenger hasn't had any success in Europe. Unless you REALLY ACTUALLY think qualifying to the knockout stages is actually success?!
posted on 10/12/14
"If Burnley were in the champions league for 20 years but hadnt won it would you be calling thier
manager a failure?"
It's a pointless example. Arsenal have been a big name in Europe since the 90's and have had a great collection of some of the PL's best ever players. They are massive underachievers in Europe. We're the only members of the previous "Sky 4" who have never won the CL and not made more than one final. It's not just the fact Arsenal never won it. Let me repeat it again: Arsenal couldn't cross the 2nd round of the competition for 5 years. It took them till the "Invincibles" season to reach the quarters at the 6th attempt - and then they bottled it against Chelsea at home. Clear failure. Why are you so much in denial?
posted on 10/12/14
Fergie is actually the second most successful manager in the CL, after Ancelotti, and yet you could argue that he's underachieved in the tournament - despite winning it twice, making two more finals and numerous semis.
Wenger has made two semis and a final in that time. For a manager of his reputation that's not good.
Wenger has a good base level in the competition where it'll see him always get out of the group, which isn't to be snuffed at. However, you're making out like Arsenal are some diddy club that have overachieved in doing so when in actual fact they should be doing better than that - especially the team with Henry, Viera, Bergkamp and Pires at their peak.
Liverpool, Chelsea and United have all performed better in the CL than Arsenal. Wenger may have achieved a level of consistency that they haven't - we've all been out in the group stages - but they've all done better when it actually comes to the important stuff in the latter stages.
I
posted on 10/12/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 10/12/14
Wenger has to be praised for firstly making it into the CL every year for 17 years and then his other knockout stage record.
But don't make out that it anywhere near as significant as actually winning it. Arsenal are in the CL to make up the numbers. That's a simple, undeniable fact. And it's been a fact since Wenger treated the CL as a cash making opportunity rather than trophy winning one.
posted on 10/12/14
when did we lose to Schalke in the knockout stages?
posted on 10/12/14
Serial, it's a great record but it does appear to be an achievement that is defining him in Europe.
posted on 10/12/14
A good few teams certainly underachieved. Madrid went through a horrible run until Maureen restored their competitiveness in the competition. Barca are the most successful side in the CL over the last decade, but a team vying for the G.O.A.T status should probably have won at least one more. Juve were the greatest team of the 90's but bottled 3 finals against inferior Madrid, Ajax and Dortmund sides - and had a shocker in the '99 semis against Man U when they should have closed it out. Arsenal are up there though. It's ridiculous that a team that have been English champions 13 times have never won it - and Wenger had the best chance to correct that record. No manager before him had the luxury of qualifying for Europe's premier competition by simply winning the top 4 cup.
posted on 10/12/14
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 1 second ago
Serial, it's a great record but it does appear to be an achievement that is defining him in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wenger himself uses the "achievement" as some sort of a Ace, whenever questioned about his record in Europe. It's really bizarre why he continues to trump it around, when all it does is highlight his failure.
I mean, Wenger surely must know he's been a failure in Europe, and simply qualifying for the competition isn't a sufficient enough achievement to write on his CV.
I really can't explain it, apart from perhaps he is as delusional as he sounds. As with his entire management philosophy, he probably does think if he sticks at it long enough, the balance of probabilities dictates that he'll win it eventually.
posted on 10/12/14
Sigh, this is getting boring now tbh
"Burney don't have the wage bill we do. Their manager doesn't earn £8m a year like Wenger. They don't have the quality in the squad, the facilities, etc. It's just a wrong example in every level!"
Do you think we have the same resources and personel as the best in Europe? Have we ever started a season favourite to win the champions league? I use the Burnley example which is an extreme for a reason Tbh Im leaving this point now as you have failed to understand this point no matter what ways Ive tried to explain. I thought it was an easy concept to grasp but obviously its not and i cant be bothered to keep trying
"Now if fergie had gone through 17 years without winning a single European tournament, that would be a failure. It's the same as Wenger. We couldn't win the CL with a team of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires, Cesc, Gilberto, Ljunberg, Campbell, Cole, Lehmann. That is pathetic "
United even today are on a par with Real and Barca in terms of revenue, personel and standing in world football. We are not, and never have been, despite what you entitled mind tells you. We are on our way hopefully, but we are not there yet. Fergie will have been expected to win the CL In over 20 years Fergie won 2 european trophies. That is how difficult and lucky you need to be to win it. I have seen teams with Ronaldo, Zidane, etc fail to win it, its just how the competion is. Apart from possibly 2 years (2002/2003 and 2003/2004) we have not had a squad that was expected win anything. Even at our best we still had to contend wtih the likes of real madrid with ronaldo zidane. So stop naming dropping former gooners to make it look as if we should have won as if we were the best or something.
posted on 10/12/14
We are definitely on our way to winning the CL. Maybe in the next 5-10 years. We have a good squad which is yet to peak. An excellent stadium, excellent youth/training facilities. Excellent financial position which strengthens every season. And Wenger will be gone in 2017. We can definitely challenge for the CL but not yet.
posted on 10/12/14
Do you think we have the same resources and personel as the best in Europe
------------------
What, like the past two finalists, Dortmund and Atletico Madrid?!
A.Madrid have a European record that puts us to shame. And they haven't half our resources. Stop embarrassing yourself Godfather
posted on 10/12/14
comment by Bats (U18355)
posted 1 minute ago
We are definitely on our way to winning the CL. Maybe in the next 5-10 years. We have a good squad which is yet to peak. An excellent stadium, excellent youth/training facilities. Excellent financial position which strengthens every season. And Wenger will be gone in 2017. We can definitely challenge for the CL but not yet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand some of your optimism but I still got some doubt about it. As much as Wenger been guilty for achiachieving nothing in the past few years, our board has been as bad if not worse for keeping pressure on him.
I'd wait until knowing Wenger replacement before making such claim. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a completely unproven name after his tenure.
posted on 10/12/14
Arsenal didn't have to compete with Zidane and Ronaldo's Madrid when they were at their peak. You lost before you played them.
You played them in 06 when you were past their best and beat them.
I don't really understand how anyone can make excuses for Wenger in Europe.
Especially as you seem to rate Wenger highly. If Wenger was as good as you seem to believe I'm surprised you don't think he should have done better than he has - be that against teams you should be or teams that are better than you.
posted on 10/12/14
Looking at the wider picture apart from regularly participating in a competition we have next to no chance of winning, Arsenal’s European pedigree has been poor.
With the player’s AW has had at his disposal during his tenure, he should have fared better.
posted on 10/12/14
Until Wenger learn how to use his full squad, he won't win the CL (or even the PL for that matter). Using the same XI for 50+ game never gonna work.
IronicaIly Mourinho is making the same mistake this season. If he doesn't buy any player in January, I wouldn't be surprised if Chelsea win fake all
posted on 10/12/14
Just look at each qualifying group objectionably.
How many times should you have qualified? How many times have you qualified. 15 of 15 I imagine.
posted on 10/12/14
He has tried regular rotations... And that didn't work!
We have never had a balanced squad with the quality to rotate successfully, not even in the early 2000s.
posted on 10/12/14
comment by Cinciwolf-----look at me, I am talking!! (U11551)
posted 1 minute ago
Just look at each qualifying group objectionably.
How many times should you have qualified? How many times have you qualified. 15 of 15 I imagine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We have been tipped to go out many times.
Napoli, Dortmund and Marseille season especially. Some had us to finish bottom of that!
posted on 10/12/14
The early CL squads we had was good enough to win the CL, let alone qualify for the knockout rounds. That quality in the squad did boost our coefficient, so lately we've been seeded as number 1, even though our quality was probably 2nd or 3rd tier.
With the new seeding system, we'll struggle to make it past the group stages.
posted on 10/12/14
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 48 seconds ago
He has tried regular rotations... And that didn't work!
We have never had a balanced squad with the quality to rotate successfully, not even in the early 2000s.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO Wenger's approach to European football was fully exposed in a host of our knockout games, (United, Barca, and Milan spring to mind) in that against opposition with that sort of class up front the expansive ‘hung-ho’ approach disintegrates time and again.
posted on 10/12/14
We always love to....
█.................█..........█
█...............█..█........█
█augh.......█ █ █ █t....█iverpool
█............█........█.....█
█ █ █ █...█...........█...█ █ █ █
posted on 10/12/14
If Arsenal played on the counter more instead of playing high up so much there's a chance you could do damage, even with your lamppost's up front
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