As someone who actually grew up in Qatar (and other gulf countries) and whose father is actually working on the world cup in Doha i feel i' well placed to comment.
There does seem to be a strange feeling in the UK that other countries should live up to our standards, but people don't seem to realise that in other countries things don't work like that. As a developing country the pace of change is incredible in Qatar, but it's still well behind the 'west' in terms of human rights etc. The companies actually have strict rules to follow regarding emigrant worker safety, and they are making a ridiculous effort to ensure that these accidents don't happen. Unfortunately these things don't happen overnight.
tl;dr different countries work in different ways. deal with it
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Where in the world, or during what timeframe, have human beings ever got genuine human rights installed as a social foundation, and not as some idealistic ceiling?
Criticising any time or place as being inhabited by people with lesser credibility as, humanitarian, human beings smacks of, bog standard, moral relativism.
The whole species needs sorting out.
comment by Greatteamswinit4times- A terrible enemy (U6008)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by T Bone Steak Roysters (U3947)
posted 28 seconds ago
Is it still happening in winter??
If so it is a complete joke by FIFA. They are as corrupt as our government.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, 100% happening in November/December.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So do we just stop the premiership for a few weeks?? This is mental. Only Sepp Blatter could agree to this. How he is still in his job is beyond me. I hoe Figo gets his role!!
Six of their current team were not born in Qatar
============================
How is that any different to Spain, Italy, Germany, Algeria and Portugal?
different countries work in different ways. deal with it
------------------------
Here is a novel idea, don't award multi billion pound sporting events to countries until they can show a basic level of human rights
comment by Genius Greaves is 100% behind Poch! (U1302)
posted 7 minutes ago
The problem isn't the Middle East part. It's the thousands of deaths of people being worked to death. That would apply to England, USA or Australia if the same was happening for them building World Cup stadiums.
Absolute rubbish!
Most modern countries apply rigid Health & Safety policies to construction.
We don't take passports off migrant workers or prevent them from going home if they want to.
We don't deny them medical treatment or help if they are injured at work.
The Arab culture is totally different to other countries and if it was not for the power of their money that more has not been made of these injustices!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that if the same kind of thing was happening in Western countries - ie migrant deaths building world cup stadiums - that I and other people would be equally damning about the awarding of a world cup.
I'm trying to say it's not some anti middle eastern stance. It's more an anti people dying for a world cup stance
The flipside is though that it is events like this that tend to accelerate change as the spotlight is firmly on them
-----------------------------
That's a valid point, though it would be nice to live in a world where the governing body took an active role in helping accelerate change rather than denying problems until the international media had made it hard to ignore.
When the (also dubious) 2018 award went to Russia I hoped that the looming international spotlight would shift the attitudes of the Russian ruling class from denial to genuinely fighting racism through grassroots initiatives and public campaigns. Unfortunately, I'm much less optimistic about that now. Aggressive nationalism, an ideology of Russian exceptionalism and scapegoating of foreign powers / treacherous domestic enemies have all risen over the last couple of years.
My point is that the WC and related international attention can be a force for the good, especially if the country wants to use it to generate positive PR. However, I don't think it outweighs the influence of existing socio-economic power structures and their overriding interests. If the system of indentured labour is key to the wealth and power of the establishment, I can't see any fundamental changes coming from a handful of articles and petitions.
Funnily enough, stopping the league for the World Cup is one of the least troubling things for me.
In fact there's a good argument to be had that it could well improve England's chances of having a decent tournament.
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - The Fellosophy (U2958)
posted 47 seconds ago
different countries work in different ways. deal with it
------------------------
Here is a novel idea, don't award multi billion pound sporting events to countries until they can show a basic level of human rights
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brazil and SA hardly display basic human rights and that's to there own people.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
It will be interesting if Israel qualify for the Qatar World cup.
Would love that to happen,just like I'd love Ukraine to qualify for the world cup in Russia.
Football is run by the most corrupt regime going and that is not going to change unless something drastic happens like a breakaway organisation or UEFA members growing a pair and stand up to say enough is enough
"That's a valid point, though it would be nice to live in a world where the governing body took an active role in helping accelerate change rather than denying problems until the international media had made it hard to ignore."
Absolutely, and I find it absurd that the guardian should be criticised for highlighting some of the issues.
There's two distinct arguments there for me though rr. Firstly whether FIFA should have awarded it in the first place and then secondly, once they had done, what their actions should be in terms of accelerating change.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Brazil and SA hardly display basic human rights and that's to there own people.
--------------------------------------------
Brazil and SA are two relatively young democracies still trying to grapple with the legacies of military rule and a two-tier racist state, respectively. There are issues with poverty and the disenfranchisement of the poor and corruption within organs of the state. But they also both have the rule of law and governments that have been elected with the votes of the poorer classes.
I would draw distinctions between those cases and that of Qatar, a society comprising and well-to-do minority enjoying the protections of the law and a guest-worker majority suffering from considerable restrictions to freedom and inadequate protections against exploitation and abuse.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
It's a strange decision to host a World Cup there, no two ways about it.
Qatar is basically a pop-up country in the grand scheme and the whole region, Dubai aside, will pretty much evacuate when the oil runs out.
They only have 250,000 citizens and in the summer the entire population is around 500,000, with little footballing history on the biggest stage. I don't understand what sort of legacy this World Cup is supposed to leave?
Good on Qatar for bribing FIFA. If only our gutless FA bribed them properly instead of giving them poxy £200 handbags, we could be hosting a World Cup.
Busby, I have many problems with the Qatar WC but I don't think the 'small country' argument is so important. You could say it is for the region as a whole - the first WC in the Arabian peninsula and whole of the Middle East - which is one with a lot of interest in football even if it doesn't have a substantial history in the sport.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Human rights record has never been the criteria for hosting the World Cup or sports in general otherwise countries like Argentina and Mexico would not have hosted the WC.
tl;dr different countries work in different ways. deal with it
______________________
Should we accept Islamic State for the same reason?
Should we ignore any human rights violation that occurs outside Britain?
comment by Mr Chelsea ✪ (U3579)
posted 4 minutes ago
Good on Qatar for bribing FIFA. If only our gutless FA bribed them properly instead of giving them poxy £200 handbags, we could be hosting a World Cup.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Qatar delegates would have stuffed the bags with gold ingots/money/jewels.
Ours probably had a signed photo of Beckham and a pack of pannini stickers
comment by redmisty (U7556)
posted 1 minute ago
tl;dr different countries work in different ways. deal with it
______________________
Should we accept Islamic State for the same reason?
Should we ignore any human rights violation that occurs outside Britain?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think commentators should not use the phrase 'he threw his head in' if some players headbutts another,pretty sure it could mean something different out there #culturaldifferences
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posted on 9/4/15
As someone who actually grew up in Qatar (and other gulf countries) and whose father is actually working on the world cup in Doha i feel i' well placed to comment.
There does seem to be a strange feeling in the UK that other countries should live up to our standards, but people don't seem to realise that in other countries things don't work like that. As a developing country the pace of change is incredible in Qatar, but it's still well behind the 'west' in terms of human rights etc. The companies actually have strict rules to follow regarding emigrant worker safety, and they are making a ridiculous effort to ensure that these accidents don't happen. Unfortunately these things don't happen overnight.
tl;dr different countries work in different ways. deal with it
posted on 9/4/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/4/15
Where in the world, or during what timeframe, have human beings ever got genuine human rights installed as a social foundation, and not as some idealistic ceiling?
Criticising any time or place as being inhabited by people with lesser credibility as, humanitarian, human beings smacks of, bog standard, moral relativism.
The whole species needs sorting out.
posted on 9/4/15
comment by Greatteamswinit4times- A terrible enemy (U6008)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by T Bone Steak Roysters (U3947)
posted 28 seconds ago
Is it still happening in winter??
If so it is a complete joke by FIFA. They are as corrupt as our government.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, 100% happening in November/December.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So do we just stop the premiership for a few weeks?? This is mental. Only Sepp Blatter could agree to this. How he is still in his job is beyond me. I hoe Figo gets his role!!
posted on 9/4/15
Six of their current team were not born in Qatar
============================
How is that any different to Spain, Italy, Germany, Algeria and Portugal?
posted on 9/4/15
different countries work in different ways. deal with it
------------------------
Here is a novel idea, don't award multi billion pound sporting events to countries until they can show a basic level of human rights
posted on 9/4/15
comment by Genius Greaves is 100% behind Poch! (U1302)
posted 7 minutes ago
The problem isn't the Middle East part. It's the thousands of deaths of people being worked to death. That would apply to England, USA or Australia if the same was happening for them building World Cup stadiums.
Absolute rubbish!
Most modern countries apply rigid Health & Safety policies to construction.
We don't take passports off migrant workers or prevent them from going home if they want to.
We don't deny them medical treatment or help if they are injured at work.
The Arab culture is totally different to other countries and if it was not for the power of their money that more has not been made of these injustices!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that if the same kind of thing was happening in Western countries - ie migrant deaths building world cup stadiums - that I and other people would be equally damning about the awarding of a world cup.
I'm trying to say it's not some anti middle eastern stance. It's more an anti people dying for a world cup stance
posted on 9/4/15
The flipside is though that it is events like this that tend to accelerate change as the spotlight is firmly on them
-----------------------------
That's a valid point, though it would be nice to live in a world where the governing body took an active role in helping accelerate change rather than denying problems until the international media had made it hard to ignore.
When the (also dubious) 2018 award went to Russia I hoped that the looming international spotlight would shift the attitudes of the Russian ruling class from denial to genuinely fighting racism through grassroots initiatives and public campaigns. Unfortunately, I'm much less optimistic about that now. Aggressive nationalism, an ideology of Russian exceptionalism and scapegoating of foreign powers / treacherous domestic enemies have all risen over the last couple of years.
My point is that the WC and related international attention can be a force for the good, especially if the country wants to use it to generate positive PR. However, I don't think it outweighs the influence of existing socio-economic power structures and their overriding interests. If the system of indentured labour is key to the wealth and power of the establishment, I can't see any fundamental changes coming from a handful of articles and petitions.
posted on 9/4/15
Funnily enough, stopping the league for the World Cup is one of the least troubling things for me.
In fact there's a good argument to be had that it could well improve England's chances of having a decent tournament.
posted on 9/4/15
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - The Fellosophy (U2958)
posted 47 seconds ago
different countries work in different ways. deal with it
------------------------
Here is a novel idea, don't award multi billion pound sporting events to countries until they can show a basic level of human rights
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brazil and SA hardly display basic human rights and that's to there own people.
posted on 9/4/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/4/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/4/15
It will be interesting if Israel qualify for the Qatar World cup.
Would love that to happen,just like I'd love Ukraine to qualify for the world cup in Russia.
Football is run by the most corrupt regime going and that is not going to change unless something drastic happens like a breakaway organisation or UEFA members growing a pair and stand up to say enough is enough
posted on 9/4/15
"That's a valid point, though it would be nice to live in a world where the governing body took an active role in helping accelerate change rather than denying problems until the international media had made it hard to ignore."
Absolutely, and I find it absurd that the guardian should be criticised for highlighting some of the issues.
There's two distinct arguments there for me though rr. Firstly whether FIFA should have awarded it in the first place and then secondly, once they had done, what their actions should be in terms of accelerating change.
posted on 9/4/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/4/15
Brazil and SA hardly display basic human rights and that's to there own people.
--------------------------------------------
Brazil and SA are two relatively young democracies still trying to grapple with the legacies of military rule and a two-tier racist state, respectively. There are issues with poverty and the disenfranchisement of the poor and corruption within organs of the state. But they also both have the rule of law and governments that have been elected with the votes of the poorer classes.
I would draw distinctions between those cases and that of Qatar, a society comprising and well-to-do minority enjoying the protections of the law and a guest-worker majority suffering from considerable restrictions to freedom and inadequate protections against exploitation and abuse.
posted on 9/4/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/4/15
It's a strange decision to host a World Cup there, no two ways about it.
Qatar is basically a pop-up country in the grand scheme and the whole region, Dubai aside, will pretty much evacuate when the oil runs out.
They only have 250,000 citizens and in the summer the entire population is around 500,000, with little footballing history on the biggest stage. I don't understand what sort of legacy this World Cup is supposed to leave?
posted on 9/4/15
Good on Qatar for bribing FIFA. If only our gutless FA bribed them properly instead of giving them poxy £200 handbags, we could be hosting a World Cup.
posted on 9/4/15
Busby, I have many problems with the Qatar WC but I don't think the 'small country' argument is so important. You could say it is for the region as a whole - the first WC in the Arabian peninsula and whole of the Middle East - which is one with a lot of interest in football even if it doesn't have a substantial history in the sport.
posted on 9/4/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/4/15
Human rights record has never been the criteria for hosting the World Cup or sports in general otherwise countries like Argentina and Mexico would not have hosted the WC.
posted on 9/4/15
tl;dr different countries work in different ways. deal with it
______________________
Should we accept Islamic State for the same reason?
Should we ignore any human rights violation that occurs outside Britain?
posted on 9/4/15
comment by Mr Chelsea ✪ (U3579)
posted 4 minutes ago
Good on Qatar for bribing FIFA. If only our gutless FA bribed them properly instead of giving them poxy £200 handbags, we could be hosting a World Cup.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Qatar delegates would have stuffed the bags with gold ingots/money/jewels.
Ours probably had a signed photo of Beckham and a pack of pannini stickers
posted on 9/4/15
comment by redmisty (U7556)
posted 1 minute ago
tl;dr different countries work in different ways. deal with it
______________________
Should we accept Islamic State for the same reason?
Should we ignore any human rights violation that occurs outside Britain?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think commentators should not use the phrase 'he threw his head in' if some players headbutts another,pretty sure it could mean something different out there #culturaldifferences
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