Comment deleted by Site Moderator
With over £200m spent we should have enough good players to win some stuff.
It is about players to a large degree but top managers get the most out of their squads.
Look at Atletico Madrid.
They haven't had a top 4 in Europe squad in the last two seasons based purely on players.
Hasn't stopped them.
Neither did Dortmund. Didn't stop them.
Have Dnipro got the best team in the EL?
Top managers find previously unheralded or unwanted players and improve them and cajole a level out of them that wasn't thought possible previously.
So what if we can't get a top manager like Dnipeo's? Then what?
Allardyce?
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted 19 minutes ago
Players want to win stuff.
Arsenal kept losing players because they weren't winning stuff.
Of course we want good league finishes, but good league finishes don't attract players if you never win anything.
And we have had 1 good league finish in 3 seasons.
Is 1 good league every 3 seasons good enough? If you are winning the league then yes, but seeing as Rodgers has never proved he can win anything, I find winning the title very unlikely.
Big clubs win cups.
When Arsenal weren't winning cups, everyone went mental.
Now they are again, people more readily accept not winning the league.
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League finishes attract players more than trophies nowadays. Players want to be competing at the top and to do so you have to finish at least fourth. The odd domestic trophy isn't going to attract players.
Top managers find previously unheralded or unwanted players and improve them and cajole a level out of them that wasn't thought possible previously.
----------------
Like last year?
League finishes attract players more than trophies nowadays. Players want to be competing at the top and to do so you have to finish at least fourth. The odd domestic trophy isn't going to attract players.
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Neither is finishing 6th and winning nothing.
Robbing, yes, but one swallow doesn't make a summer does it? What happened in Yr1 and Yr3? Top managers are also consistent, and plan for losing players.
Suarez leaving surely wasn't a shock to anyone, so why was our plan for it so pathetic?
I thinking resting it solely on BR is rather myopic.
Anyway what happens if we can't get a 'top manager'?
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted less than a minute ago
League finishes attract players more than trophies nowadays. Players want to be competing at the top and to do so you have to finish at least fourth. The odd domestic trophy isn't going to attract players.
---
Neither is finishing 6th and winning nothing.
Robbing, yes, but one swallow doesn't make a summer does it? What happened in Yr1 and Yr3? Top managers are also consistent, and plan for losing players.
Suarez leaving surely wasn't a shock to anyone, so why was our plan for it so pathetic?
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Was our plan pathetic? We bought in two strikers to add to Sturridge. One got injured and the other two have failed, it happens. Our original plan was to replace Suarez with Sanchez, which in my opinion was the perfect plan but as I said before players are attracted by a team who offer continued chances to play at the top, which Arsenal have over us, as well as being in London.
That's what we have to strive towards.
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by Arouna Jagielka oooh I wanna take ya, Heitinga... (U1308)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Arouna Jagielka oooh I wanna take ya, Heitinga... (U1308)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Arouna Jagielka oooh I wanna take ya, Heitinga... (U1308)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Neo Liverpool (U9135)
posted 1 minute ago
What are these occasions he has fallen short tactical wise?
......
Most of our European games this season, for a start. Particularly the ones against Basle.
The matches against Chelsea this season and last, the fa cup semi his season, To name but a few.
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What did he do tactically wrong in those games?
For me I would have done differently against Chelsea last season but I can also understand why it may be better to go with the same style used all season which was working for us.
Not sure what he did wrong in the FA Cup either. What was it?
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He didn't pick or setup a winning side, what else could you ask for from a manager
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You can pick the best side and set them up in the best way and still lose. There's only so much a manager can do, the players still have to perform. They will have off days and there will be teams better than them on the day, that doesn't mean the manager has set them up wrong.
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Lets also look at his 'records'
Three seasons without a trophy, I understand he is now the first manager since 195something to complete three seasons without a trophy.
He won only one CL game, one EL game
Worst start in 50 years and now add the heaviest defeat for over 50 years.
Now, the odd game sure......but that's more of a trend
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Let's look at what he can do.
Put in a title challenge and finish in the top four.
I'll take that. Especially considering it gives us the chance to over take those above us. That's what the aim should be, as soon as we are seen as a better choice than one club above us that will be progress.
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So you ignore his record breaking stats.
Well as another club fan I want him to stay, he is average
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I don't think it bears any relevance to judge him on only those stats. If we take the picture as a whole, he's got a team promoted who'd never been in the Premier League and brought them to an outstanding finish and he's got a team from mid table to a title challenge finish about a billionaire team and two others ahead of us in terms of financial power and player pull. For me his record in his short time is excellent, he has exceeded expectations in most seasons as manager, not winning a trophy, being at most in his time, in the fifth best position to do so, doesn't tip the balance for me. As I said, if he were say, Chelsea manager, he'd have trophies. It's about progress for me and Rodgers has shown he can give us that.
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7th and a team containing the player it had was hardly mid table. In fact he struggled in his first.
We finished eighth with that player and then went to seventh and after to a title challenge. To then go to sixth was poor but I think the reasons are easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager.
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
We finished eighth with that player and then went to seventh and after to a title challenge. To then go to sixth was poor but I think the reasons are easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager.
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How are they easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager??
How are they easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager??
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By signing a reliable striker.
comment by Arouna Jagielka oooh I wanna take ya, Heitinga... (U1308)
posted about a minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
We finished eighth with that player and then went to seventh and after to a title challenge. To then go to sixth was poor but I think the reasons are easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager.
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How are they easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager??
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A striker who scores goals would have had us in the top four in my opinion or simply Sturridge being fit for half the season. For me the injury wasn't to do with Rodgers and the situation is easily fixed by getting a striker in and having Sturridge fit for at least half a season. I think there's progress to be made for many of our players also and that could all come together next season as it did last.
comment by Robbing_Hoody - floored diamond (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
How are they easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager??
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By signing a reliable striker.
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Well Rodgers has been involved in signing three that have proven they are not good enough and a young Belgian lad who struggled against Tony Hibbert
They sacked the scouts for a reason I'm guessing.
I think Rodgers is a good coach and a bad manager.
He refused a DOF but accepted the committee with his final say but his signings have been poor.
He can coach players no doubt but the other facets of management I don't think he has.
His best chance is if FSG scrap the committee and force him to have a DOF buying the players.
I don't think Rodgers is a bad judge of player, just it's difficult for us to attract them. Also I have an issue with our transfer policy. We need to abandon this idea of signing so much potential and allow Rodgers to sign experienced players. Rodgers has stated himself that that's what we need to do.
We don't need a DoF. For me it just creates a bad position for the manager. Look at Spurs, since they had one every manager has complained about signing players against his wishes.
Rodgers knows the players he wants, most we can't get, some we get and some work out. We need to get above a couple of teams in terms of attracting players and thus the percentage of players who work out will increase.
Rodgers signed Borini who he was supposed to know very well. Add Balo and Lambert to that. Losing Sturridge is no excuse for what we have seen this season. Losing Sturridge does not mean we can get ragdolled by the likes of Hull, Villa, Palace, Stoke, West Ham and get trounced by United, Madrid and Stoke and Arsenal with scorelines last seen ages ago.
As for Suarez, if Sanchez was to be his replacement, what was option B? We were not putting all our eggs in one basket, were we?
comment by Mamba - The Moet and Alize keep me pissy, Girl... (U13041)
posted less than a minute ago
Rodgers signed Borini who he was supposed to know very well. Add Balo and Lambert to that. Losing Sturridge is no excuse for what we have seen this season. Losing Sturridge does not mean we can get ragdolled by the likes of Hull, Villa, Palace, Stoke, West Ham and get trounced by United, Madrid and Stoke and Arsenal with scorelines last seen ages ago.
As for Suarez, if Sanchez was to be his replacement, what was option B? We were not putting all our eggs in one basket, were we?
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Option b was Remy, we pulled out of that for medical reasons and went for option c.
No one injury shouldn't do that but due to option c failing, it did.
Sanchez was plan B, Costa was plan A.
Plan C was Remy, but he had a heart condition and doctors told us not to buy him.
Plan D was Mario.
Mario should have been Plan Z
I don't think planning has been an issue. Attracting certainly has but that's why we need sustained CL qualification over the odd domestic cup. We need to push one of the club's below us and thus that's one less club who can attract players better than we can.
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 51 minutes ago
I don't think Rodgers is a bad judge of player, just it's difficult for us to attract them. Also I have an issue with our transfer policy. We need to abandon this idea of signing so much potential and allow Rodgers to sign experienced players. Rodgers has stated himself that that's what we need to do.
We don't need a DoF. For me it just creates a bad position for the manager. Look at Spurs, since they had one every manager has complained about signing players against his wishes.
Rodgers knows the players he wants, most we can't get, some we get and some work out. We need to get above a couple of teams in terms of attracting players and thus the percentage of players who work out will increase.
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He wanted Allen, Lallana, Sakho, Lambert, Borini........
Did Murphy say he signed 24 players for over £220m on MOTD????
He didn't struggle to attract that dross
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted 1 hour, 53 minutes ago
Ancelotti didn't start at the top.
His first job was Reggiana, then Parma, then his first big job at Milan (who were struggling at the time).
Since then he has had top jobs, guess why? Because he has proven he is a top manager!
People always moan about Mourinho 'he can only do it with money', guess why he always has money? Because he proved he is a top manager so gets the top jobs!
If we can't attract a top manager then we are accepting we are not a top club anymore.
Rodgers isn't a top manager. He hasn't proved it.
This was his chance to elevate himself to the level of the Ancelottis and the Klopps and the Rafa's.
He has had 3 years to do so and hasn't managed it.
At best it's 'jury's out'.
If we sack him tomorrow he won't be walking to Benfica or PSG. He'd struggle to even get a Zenit or Ajax, or a West Ham in England.
We can either stick with a second rate manager who might, one day, God knows when, develop into a trophy winner.
Or we can go out and get the trophy winning top managers that are already out there.
We like to think of ourselves as a top club, what do you think the top clubs would do? Do you think the Porto's, Bayerns, etc would be happy with his 3 years?
And please, nobody mention Utd and SAF. SAF had achieved FAR more than Rodgers has done when he first got the Utd job and was subsequently given time to get it right.
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Ancelotti managed Juve before Milan so it wasn't his first big job. So whilst he is considered a top manager now, he got sacked from Juve. And Milan may have been "struggling" when he took them over, they'd finished 1st, 3rd and 6th in the three seasons before. 1st and 3rd, not 7th, 7th and 8th when BR took over at Liverpool. Ancelotti inherited a team which included the likes of Shevchenko, Inzaghi, Pirlo, Gattuso, Rui Costa, Costacurta amongst others, and then they bought Rivaldo, Nesta and Seedorf. I don't need to tell you the team that BR inherited as you're quite aware.
It's all very well to say Ancelotti did this and won this with this team but you don't consider the actual team/players he had at his disposal, the circumstances, the context. AC Milan may have been underperforming when Carlo took over but they were not in the situation we are in. As I said, 3 season earlier they'd won the league. We haven't won the league in 25 years. Completely different circumstances so completely pointless to compare the two managers.
Since then, deservedly, Carlo has gone from top job to top job because he's a very good manager but if you go back to where he started, arguably he failed in his first big job at Juve and he inherited a pretty-very good squad at Milan that was underperforming.
As for Klopp, took Mainz up but also got them relegated. Dortmund took a punt on him. He took them up to 6th and then 5th. So his first 2 season weren't particularly fruitful. So we have a manager who relegated a team, then had a pretty average start in his first 2 seasons at a bigger club. He then won the league twice but what was going on at Bayern? Well LVG was messing it up a little having won the league the season before, he was sacked in April. Not taking anything away from Dortmund mind, but their main rival for the league were having a bit of a mare. The next season Heynckes came in had a go at the league; top for more than half the season but Dortmund had a brilliant end to the season. Doesn't that sound quite similar to Liverpool's second season under BR (apart from the end result, Dortmund won it, Liverpool didn't). Dortmund haven't won it since, with Bayern dominating. And Dortmund have had a disastrous season this time round. If you wanted to be a little pedantic, you could argue that Dortmund won their league titles while Bayern were going through a "transitional" period. Bayern won it before, went through a couple of managerial changes and then once settled they started winning it again.
Again once you look at the context it tells you a little more than manager takes over, wins things; a very simplistic way of looking at it.
Now BR took over a team with problems. 3 managerial changes in 3 seasons. Lost most of their best players in that period. Almost went into administration. We were finishing around 7th/8th for 3 consecutive seasons. Not a one off blip like Milan who dropped from 3rd to 6th one season. It was a problem. First season was average. 2 season was brilliant. Third season was poor. Suarez gone, Sturridge injured, Gerrard in his final season and not at his best, it's quite similar to Dortmund I suppose. They lost their best players, Gotze then Lewandowski, a injury plagued season for Reus and they finished 7th. As good a manager Klopp may be, he couldn't do much about losing two of his best players and one having injury problems. It was a horrendous season really, they were in and around the bottom 3 until the 20th game of the season. For a team that was top 4 for 5 years running to being in the relegation painting for almost half the season. Can you see the similarities? I can.
BR made mistakes, some of his transfers have been poor, but all managers make mistakes in the transfer market. It's been a difficult season particularly after last season raising everyone expectations. However since he came in, he said this was a project, a long road for the club to be back competing at the top. It's true. Last season raised expectation but it was also proof what Rodgers was capable of with the right players. We were fantastic last season. Scoring for fun, playing lovely attacking football. Losing Suarez and Sturridge being injured has had a massive impact, and it would for any manager. (Klopp losing Gotze and Lewandowski and finishing 7th)
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that firstly it's a little pointless to compare one manager with another, without discussing the context, and secondly if you are going to do that, you could argue that at one point in their careers, Ancelotti and Klopp could have been considered "second rate", Juve sacking for Carlo, two very average seasons for Klopp, but at one point it all clicked into place for those managers. After that they were considered good mangers. It almost clicked for BR last season. I think because of that and the problems we've had this season, he should get another season.
Fair points FJM but I don't think we have had that many problems this season that weren't of Rodgers own making.
He was unlucky on Sturridge and to a lesser extent Flanagan.
Other than that every problem he created himself.
I don't buy excuses about missing out on players. That doesn't explain signing relative duds you know like Borini and Allen for a lot of money.
Dortmund were 9th? when Klopp took over, and won something in his second season. That's context isn't it? Nicely ignored.
The truth is you can compare Rodgers to any number of available managers and his record isn't favourable.
For every positive achievement there are as many if not more negatives.
His failure to deliver when it has come to the crunch in the biggest games suggests a nearly man, not a hardened winner.
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posted on 24/5/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 24/5/15
With over £200m spent we should have enough good players to win some stuff.
It is about players to a large degree but top managers get the most out of their squads.
Look at Atletico Madrid.
They haven't had a top 4 in Europe squad in the last two seasons based purely on players.
Hasn't stopped them.
Neither did Dortmund. Didn't stop them.
Have Dnipro got the best team in the EL?
Top managers find previously unheralded or unwanted players and improve them and cajole a level out of them that wasn't thought possible previously.
posted on 24/5/15
So what if we can't get a top manager like Dnipeo's? Then what?
Allardyce?
posted on 24/5/15
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted 19 minutes ago
Players want to win stuff.
Arsenal kept losing players because they weren't winning stuff.
Of course we want good league finishes, but good league finishes don't attract players if you never win anything.
And we have had 1 good league finish in 3 seasons.
Is 1 good league every 3 seasons good enough? If you are winning the league then yes, but seeing as Rodgers has never proved he can win anything, I find winning the title very unlikely.
Big clubs win cups.
When Arsenal weren't winning cups, everyone went mental.
Now they are again, people more readily accept not winning the league.
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League finishes attract players more than trophies nowadays. Players want to be competing at the top and to do so you have to finish at least fourth. The odd domestic trophy isn't going to attract players.
posted on 24/5/15
Top managers find previously unheralded or unwanted players and improve them and cajole a level out of them that wasn't thought possible previously.
----------------
Like last year?
posted on 24/5/15
League finishes attract players more than trophies nowadays. Players want to be competing at the top and to do so you have to finish at least fourth. The odd domestic trophy isn't going to attract players.
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Neither is finishing 6th and winning nothing.
Robbing, yes, but one swallow doesn't make a summer does it? What happened in Yr1 and Yr3? Top managers are also consistent, and plan for losing players.
Suarez leaving surely wasn't a shock to anyone, so why was our plan for it so pathetic?
posted on 24/5/15
I thinking resting it solely on BR is rather myopic.
Anyway what happens if we can't get a 'top manager'?
posted on 24/5/15
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted less than a minute ago
League finishes attract players more than trophies nowadays. Players want to be competing at the top and to do so you have to finish at least fourth. The odd domestic trophy isn't going to attract players.
---
Neither is finishing 6th and winning nothing.
Robbing, yes, but one swallow doesn't make a summer does it? What happened in Yr1 and Yr3? Top managers are also consistent, and plan for losing players.
Suarez leaving surely wasn't a shock to anyone, so why was our plan for it so pathetic?
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Was our plan pathetic? We bought in two strikers to add to Sturridge. One got injured and the other two have failed, it happens. Our original plan was to replace Suarez with Sanchez, which in my opinion was the perfect plan but as I said before players are attracted by a team who offer continued chances to play at the top, which Arsenal have over us, as well as being in London.
That's what we have to strive towards.
posted on 24/5/15
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by Arouna Jagielka oooh I wanna take ya, Heitinga... (U1308)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Arouna Jagielka oooh I wanna take ya, Heitinga... (U1308)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Arouna Jagielka oooh I wanna take ya, Heitinga... (U1308)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Neo Liverpool (U9135)
posted 1 minute ago
What are these occasions he has fallen short tactical wise?
......
Most of our European games this season, for a start. Particularly the ones against Basle.
The matches against Chelsea this season and last, the fa cup semi his season, To name but a few.
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What did he do tactically wrong in those games?
For me I would have done differently against Chelsea last season but I can also understand why it may be better to go with the same style used all season which was working for us.
Not sure what he did wrong in the FA Cup either. What was it?
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He didn't pick or setup a winning side, what else could you ask for from a manager
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You can pick the best side and set them up in the best way and still lose. There's only so much a manager can do, the players still have to perform. They will have off days and there will be teams better than them on the day, that doesn't mean the manager has set them up wrong.
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Lets also look at his 'records'
Three seasons without a trophy, I understand he is now the first manager since 195something to complete three seasons without a trophy.
He won only one CL game, one EL game
Worst start in 50 years and now add the heaviest defeat for over 50 years.
Now, the odd game sure......but that's more of a trend
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Let's look at what he can do.
Put in a title challenge and finish in the top four.
I'll take that. Especially considering it gives us the chance to over take those above us. That's what the aim should be, as soon as we are seen as a better choice than one club above us that will be progress.
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So you ignore his record breaking stats.
Well as another club fan I want him to stay, he is average
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I don't think it bears any relevance to judge him on only those stats. If we take the picture as a whole, he's got a team promoted who'd never been in the Premier League and brought them to an outstanding finish and he's got a team from mid table to a title challenge finish about a billionaire team and two others ahead of us in terms of financial power and player pull. For me his record in his short time is excellent, he has exceeded expectations in most seasons as manager, not winning a trophy, being at most in his time, in the fifth best position to do so, doesn't tip the balance for me. As I said, if he were say, Chelsea manager, he'd have trophies. It's about progress for me and Rodgers has shown he can give us that.
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7th and a team containing the player it had was hardly mid table. In fact he struggled in his first.
posted on 24/5/15
We finished eighth with that player and then went to seventh and after to a title challenge. To then go to sixth was poor but I think the reasons are easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager.
posted on 24/5/15
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
We finished eighth with that player and then went to seventh and after to a title challenge. To then go to sixth was poor but I think the reasons are easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager.
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How are they easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager??
posted on 24/5/15
How are they easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager??
--------------
By signing a reliable striker.
posted on 24/5/15
comment by Arouna Jagielka oooh I wanna take ya, Heitinga... (U1308)
posted about a minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
We finished eighth with that player and then went to seventh and after to a title challenge. To then go to sixth was poor but I think the reasons are easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager.
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How are they easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager??
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A striker who scores goals would have had us in the top four in my opinion or simply Sturridge being fit for half the season. For me the injury wasn't to do with Rodgers and the situation is easily fixed by getting a striker in and having Sturridge fit for at least half a season. I think there's progress to be made for many of our players also and that could all come together next season as it did last.
posted on 24/5/15
comment by Robbing_Hoody - floored diamond (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
How are they easily fixed and not a lot to do with the manager??
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By signing a reliable striker.
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Well Rodgers has been involved in signing three that have proven they are not good enough and a young Belgian lad who struggled against Tony Hibbert
posted on 24/5/15
They sacked the scouts for a reason I'm guessing.
posted on 24/5/15
I think Rodgers is a good coach and a bad manager.
He refused a DOF but accepted the committee with his final say but his signings have been poor.
He can coach players no doubt but the other facets of management I don't think he has.
His best chance is if FSG scrap the committee and force him to have a DOF buying the players.
posted on 24/5/15
I don't think Rodgers is a bad judge of player, just it's difficult for us to attract them. Also I have an issue with our transfer policy. We need to abandon this idea of signing so much potential and allow Rodgers to sign experienced players. Rodgers has stated himself that that's what we need to do.
We don't need a DoF. For me it just creates a bad position for the manager. Look at Spurs, since they had one every manager has complained about signing players against his wishes.
Rodgers knows the players he wants, most we can't get, some we get and some work out. We need to get above a couple of teams in terms of attracting players and thus the percentage of players who work out will increase.
posted on 24/5/15
Rodgers signed Borini who he was supposed to know very well. Add Balo and Lambert to that. Losing Sturridge is no excuse for what we have seen this season. Losing Sturridge does not mean we can get ragdolled by the likes of Hull, Villa, Palace, Stoke, West Ham and get trounced by United, Madrid and Stoke and Arsenal with scorelines last seen ages ago.
As for Suarez, if Sanchez was to be his replacement, what was option B? We were not putting all our eggs in one basket, were we?
posted on 24/5/15
comment by Mamba - The Moet and Alize keep me pissy, Girl... (U13041)
posted less than a minute ago
Rodgers signed Borini who he was supposed to know very well. Add Balo and Lambert to that. Losing Sturridge is no excuse for what we have seen this season. Losing Sturridge does not mean we can get ragdolled by the likes of Hull, Villa, Palace, Stoke, West Ham and get trounced by United, Madrid and Stoke and Arsenal with scorelines last seen ages ago.
As for Suarez, if Sanchez was to be his replacement, what was option B? We were not putting all our eggs in one basket, were we?
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Option b was Remy, we pulled out of that for medical reasons and went for option c.
No one injury shouldn't do that but due to option c failing, it did.
posted on 24/5/15
Sanchez was plan B, Costa was plan A.
Plan C was Remy, but he had a heart condition and doctors told us not to buy him.
Plan D was Mario.
posted on 24/5/15
Mario should have been Plan Z
posted on 24/5/15
I don't think planning has been an issue. Attracting certainly has but that's why we need sustained CL qualification over the odd domestic cup. We need to push one of the club's below us and thus that's one less club who can attract players better than we can.
posted on 24/5/15
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 51 minutes ago
I don't think Rodgers is a bad judge of player, just it's difficult for us to attract them. Also I have an issue with our transfer policy. We need to abandon this idea of signing so much potential and allow Rodgers to sign experienced players. Rodgers has stated himself that that's what we need to do.
We don't need a DoF. For me it just creates a bad position for the manager. Look at Spurs, since they had one every manager has complained about signing players against his wishes.
Rodgers knows the players he wants, most we can't get, some we get and some work out. We need to get above a couple of teams in terms of attracting players and thus the percentage of players who work out will increase.
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He wanted Allen, Lallana, Sakho, Lambert, Borini........
Did Murphy say he signed 24 players for over £220m on MOTD????
He didn't struggle to attract that dross
posted on 25/5/15
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted 1 hour, 53 minutes ago
Ancelotti didn't start at the top.
His first job was Reggiana, then Parma, then his first big job at Milan (who were struggling at the time).
Since then he has had top jobs, guess why? Because he has proven he is a top manager!
People always moan about Mourinho 'he can only do it with money', guess why he always has money? Because he proved he is a top manager so gets the top jobs!
If we can't attract a top manager then we are accepting we are not a top club anymore.
Rodgers isn't a top manager. He hasn't proved it.
This was his chance to elevate himself to the level of the Ancelottis and the Klopps and the Rafa's.
He has had 3 years to do so and hasn't managed it.
At best it's 'jury's out'.
If we sack him tomorrow he won't be walking to Benfica or PSG. He'd struggle to even get a Zenit or Ajax, or a West Ham in England.
We can either stick with a second rate manager who might, one day, God knows when, develop into a trophy winner.
Or we can go out and get the trophy winning top managers that are already out there.
We like to think of ourselves as a top club, what do you think the top clubs would do? Do you think the Porto's, Bayerns, etc would be happy with his 3 years?
And please, nobody mention Utd and SAF. SAF had achieved FAR more than Rodgers has done when he first got the Utd job and was subsequently given time to get it right.
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Ancelotti managed Juve before Milan so it wasn't his first big job. So whilst he is considered a top manager now, he got sacked from Juve. And Milan may have been "struggling" when he took them over, they'd finished 1st, 3rd and 6th in the three seasons before. 1st and 3rd, not 7th, 7th and 8th when BR took over at Liverpool. Ancelotti inherited a team which included the likes of Shevchenko, Inzaghi, Pirlo, Gattuso, Rui Costa, Costacurta amongst others, and then they bought Rivaldo, Nesta and Seedorf. I don't need to tell you the team that BR inherited as you're quite aware.
It's all very well to say Ancelotti did this and won this with this team but you don't consider the actual team/players he had at his disposal, the circumstances, the context. AC Milan may have been underperforming when Carlo took over but they were not in the situation we are in. As I said, 3 season earlier they'd won the league. We haven't won the league in 25 years. Completely different circumstances so completely pointless to compare the two managers.
Since then, deservedly, Carlo has gone from top job to top job because he's a very good manager but if you go back to where he started, arguably he failed in his first big job at Juve and he inherited a pretty-very good squad at Milan that was underperforming.
As for Klopp, took Mainz up but also got them relegated. Dortmund took a punt on him. He took them up to 6th and then 5th. So his first 2 season weren't particularly fruitful. So we have a manager who relegated a team, then had a pretty average start in his first 2 seasons at a bigger club. He then won the league twice but what was going on at Bayern? Well LVG was messing it up a little having won the league the season before, he was sacked in April. Not taking anything away from Dortmund mind, but their main rival for the league were having a bit of a mare. The next season Heynckes came in had a go at the league; top for more than half the season but Dortmund had a brilliant end to the season. Doesn't that sound quite similar to Liverpool's second season under BR (apart from the end result, Dortmund won it, Liverpool didn't). Dortmund haven't won it since, with Bayern dominating. And Dortmund have had a disastrous season this time round. If you wanted to be a little pedantic, you could argue that Dortmund won their league titles while Bayern were going through a "transitional" period. Bayern won it before, went through a couple of managerial changes and then once settled they started winning it again.
Again once you look at the context it tells you a little more than manager takes over, wins things; a very simplistic way of looking at it.
Now BR took over a team with problems. 3 managerial changes in 3 seasons. Lost most of their best players in that period. Almost went into administration. We were finishing around 7th/8th for 3 consecutive seasons. Not a one off blip like Milan who dropped from 3rd to 6th one season. It was a problem. First season was average. 2 season was brilliant. Third season was poor. Suarez gone, Sturridge injured, Gerrard in his final season and not at his best, it's quite similar to Dortmund I suppose. They lost their best players, Gotze then Lewandowski, a injury plagued season for Reus and they finished 7th. As good a manager Klopp may be, he couldn't do much about losing two of his best players and one having injury problems. It was a horrendous season really, they were in and around the bottom 3 until the 20th game of the season. For a team that was top 4 for 5 years running to being in the relegation painting for almost half the season. Can you see the similarities? I can.
BR made mistakes, some of his transfers have been poor, but all managers make mistakes in the transfer market. It's been a difficult season particularly after last season raising everyone expectations. However since he came in, he said this was a project, a long road for the club to be back competing at the top. It's true. Last season raised expectation but it was also proof what Rodgers was capable of with the right players. We were fantastic last season. Scoring for fun, playing lovely attacking football. Losing Suarez and Sturridge being injured has had a massive impact, and it would for any manager. (Klopp losing Gotze and Lewandowski and finishing 7th)
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that firstly it's a little pointless to compare one manager with another, without discussing the context, and secondly if you are going to do that, you could argue that at one point in their careers, Ancelotti and Klopp could have been considered "second rate", Juve sacking for Carlo, two very average seasons for Klopp, but at one point it all clicked into place for those managers. After that they were considered good mangers. It almost clicked for BR last season. I think because of that and the problems we've had this season, he should get another season.
posted on 25/5/15
Fair points FJM but I don't think we have had that many problems this season that weren't of Rodgers own making.
He was unlucky on Sturridge and to a lesser extent Flanagan.
Other than that every problem he created himself.
I don't buy excuses about missing out on players. That doesn't explain signing relative duds you know like Borini and Allen for a lot of money.
Dortmund were 9th? when Klopp took over, and won something in his second season. That's context isn't it? Nicely ignored.
The truth is you can compare Rodgers to any number of available managers and his record isn't favourable.
For every positive achievement there are as many if not more negatives.
His failure to deliver when it has come to the crunch in the biggest games suggests a nearly man, not a hardened winner.
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