I think there has been an element of randomness, rather than 'luck' per se, in the way players like Rashford have had and taken their chances. They didn't start the season as first choices and LVG didn't know in advance when they'd get their opportunities, nor which players would take them.
At the same time, the conscious decision to strip down the senior squad represents a bold element of design in giving academy players chances. I don't think we can have it both ways. We can say he was taking too big a risk in selling so many senior players and not replacing them, which is exactly what I said in September. But we can't then deny him the credit for the emergence of Rashford and others.
This is where our forum could do with a bit more nuance and less partisan adherence to pro-/anti-LVG lines. Not bringing in an extra forward to replace the departures of RVP, Hernandez, Januzaj and Falcao may well have been the season-dooming mistake we worried it was. We should be relaxed about acknowledging that at the same time as seeing Rashford's promotion as the flip-side of it, and giving LVG the credit for that consolation. You're allowed to still think LVG made the wrong call while accepting there has been a silver lining.
It reminds me of Moyes's season when people started to believe the manager was 100% wrong in every decision he made and totally incompetent in every aspect of management.
I'm assuming that Rashford was training with the first team for some time no?
It's not like the EL was the first time he kicked a ball.
I also suspect he let Wilson go because he isn't very good, not from what I have seen anyway, and maybe he was not great for squad dynamics or a bit full of himself.
There are many permutations but in reality I've always felt that managers get too much credit when things go well and too much grief when things go wrong.
It's about players in the main and they are all at his disposal.
You're allowed to still think LVG made the wrong call while accepting there has been a silver lining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't speak for anyone else but that's been my way of thinking all the way through.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
I think there has been an element of randomness, rather than 'luck' per se, in the way players like Rashford have had and taken their chances. They didn't start the season as first choices and LVG didn't know in advance when they'd get their opportunities, nor which players would take them.
At the same time, the conscious decision to strip down the senior squad represents a bold element of design in giving academy players chances. I don't think we can have it both ways. We can say he was taking too big a risk in selling so many senior players and not replacing them, which is exactly what I said in September. But we can't then deny him the credit for the emergence of Rashford and others.
------------
Well said RR. And yet that is exactly what some of our fans on here do.
Robb shut up you cretin, you are a cancer to this place. For anyone to insinuate the emergence of these players is luck is bonkers.
comment by scholayScholes (U13961)
posted 1 minute ago
Robb shut up you cretin, you are a cancer to this place. For anyone to insinuate the emergence of these players is luck is bonkers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, angry again. Chill out.
comment by Robb - Yes way, Jose (U20351)
posted 8 minutes ago
You're allowed to still think LVG made the wrong call while accepting there has been a silver lining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't speak for anyone else but that's been my way of thinking all the way through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not talking about specific posters but some people have gone to lengths to downplay any credit LVG should get for the emergence of the youngsters. 'He's been a disaster and anything good that has come out of this season has been down to chance.'
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 seconds ago
comment by Robb - Yes way, Jose (U20351)
posted 8 minutes ago
You're allowed to still think LVG made the wrong call while accepting there has been a silver lining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't speak for anyone else but that's been my way of thinking all the way through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not talking about specific posters but some people have gone to lengths to downplay any credit LVG should get for the emergence of the youngsters. 'He's been a disaster and anything good that has come out of this season has been down to chance.'
-------------------
So Robb then?
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 seconds ago
comment by Robb - Yes way, Jose (U20351)
posted 8 minutes ago
You're allowed to still think LVG made the wrong call while accepting there has been a silver lining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't speak for anyone else but that's been my way of thinking all the way through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not talking about specific posters but some people have gone to lengths to downplay any credit LVG should get for the emergence of the youngsters. 'He's been a disaster and anything good that has come out of this season has been down to chance.'
-------------------
So Robb then?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have said that some things are down to luck - like Rashford and explained why.
Other things aren't down to luck - like us needing to rely on youth players in an injury crisis.
Red Russian will be the first to admit I debate with plenty of nuance. But some people on here have a solid idea and won't debate with it. I have debated and explained my stance just as MU82 has. But some don't accept that some luck has happened whereas some hasn't.
Why is that?
We all have our blind spots. I don't have any problem with the perennially wrong Aussie basterd.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 28 seconds ago
We all have our blind spots. I don't have any problem with the perennially wrong Aussie basterd.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly i've been right far too much this season
comment by Robb - Yes way, Jose (U20351)
posted 20 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 28 seconds ago
We all have our blind spots. I don't have any problem with the perennially wrong Aussie basterd.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly i've been right far too much this season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When?
City walking the league?
Liverpool signing quality plaeyrs and making a statement with Rodgers?
Ancelotti being our manager?
Jose being our manager
LvG being sacked?
Should I go on?
comment by Robb - Yes way, Jose (U20351)
posted 1 minute ago
Red Russian will be the first to admit I debate with plenty of nuance. But some people on here have a solid idea and won't debate with it. I have debated and explained my stance just as MU82 has. But some don't accept that some luck has happened whereas some hasn't.
Why is that?
----------------------
I have said that LVG won't have expected to use as many youth players as frequently as he has. I said it in my original post and I have said it again since in the discussion. I wouldn't really call it luck to have so many injuries, but I accept that not so many players would have been blooded if not for those injuries. But only an ostrich would stick their head in the sand and refuse to see that starting a season with 20 established players leaves the opportunity for youth the be promoted. Whether Rashford was in LVG's thinking from the off, or he needed to see more of him is largely irrelevant - he created an environment where youth could thrive, and on the whole it has. If the senior players had but in performances to match the youngsters we'd be doing much better in the league, irrespective of the injuries we've had.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 4 minutes ago
We all have our blind spots. I don't have any problem with the perennially wrong Aussie basterd.
---------------
I'm kinda fond of him too.
Also, Welbeck leading Arsenal to the title?
The signing of Ramos?
Chelsea surpassing us?
West Ham beating us in the FA cup?
This belter?
http://www.ja606.co.uk/articles/viewArticle/318422
Is it not too early to attribute credit as well though and assess whether the silver lining is actually...silver?
By that, I mean that if you are judging whether the emergence of youth players has been a bonus, that can only be assessed when they have delivered what the expected outcome you want them to eventually achieve is, so if this group of players help you to achieve top four next season or in the future. That is still an unknown.
All that can be judged is the present against the expected outcome at this stage. Again, that can't be done until the end of the season and then that you believe the targets for this season were.
Thing is LvG has been mediocre this season. What I find irritating is that some for some reason would rather stab themselves in the eye than admit he has got some things right.
Nothing wrong with that. Hell, I even praised Moyes for stuff
I've been right about plenty of stuff...
1) Us needing to buy strikers and we have scored far less than any top 4 chasing side should have.
2) Liverpool doing well under Klopp and how they're in a better position for the future than us
3) Pep would join City
4) Bastian would be a problem with his injuries
5) City would do well in the CL. I said they'd beat PSG
6) I said Atletico would knock out Barca
7) I said Welbeck would start for Arsenal and he is one of their best performers this season
8) Back in November people said Leicester wouldn't last the pace and I said they'd make top 4
9) I said we wouldn't make it out of our cl group
10) I was right about DDG in a sense. he did 'leave' in that other than a freak of nature he would be at Real.
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 1 minute ago
Is it not too early to attribute credit as well though and assess whether the silver lining is actually...silver?
By that, I mean that if you are judging whether the emergence of youth players has been a bonus, that can only be assessed when they have delivered what the expected outcome you want them to eventually achieve is, so if this group of players help you to achieve top four next season or in the future. That is still an unknown.
All that can be judged is the present against the expected outcome at this stage. Again, that can't be done until the end of the season and then that you believe the targets for this season were.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A fair point.
Moyes' silver lining may have been Januzaj, but that silver got tarnished pretty quickly.
Last year Blackett and McNair saw plenty of action, where are they now?
I'd also like to think that it is blindingly obvious that LVG was supposed to promote youth alongside his other targets - 4th/3rd whatever, CL knockout stages, Europa League run - and not at the expense of them.
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 1 minute ago
Thing is LvG has been mediocre this season. What I find irritating is that some for some reason would rather stab themselves in the eye than admit he has got some things right.
Nothing wrong with that. Hell, I even praised Moyes for stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a single person in the history of this site hasn't given LVg a tiny bit of credit this season. Especially with some of the young players.
But I love how you're reinventing yourself as this fair guy who can't understand all these non fair people.
Brilliant wumming
melton, how important the emergence of Rashford etc. is remains to be seen, yes. What I'm talking about isn't an ultimate vindication or otherwise of LVG's strategy. (I don't think it is early to conclude that he has overseen a very disappointing season.) I'm talking about people who have been happy to see young players coming through and perform well but insisting LVG can't take credit for that.
Sign in if you want to comment
LVG's youth policy is luck?
Page 4 of 6
6
posted on 15/4/16
I think there has been an element of randomness, rather than 'luck' per se, in the way players like Rashford have had and taken their chances. They didn't start the season as first choices and LVG didn't know in advance when they'd get their opportunities, nor which players would take them.
At the same time, the conscious decision to strip down the senior squad represents a bold element of design in giving academy players chances. I don't think we can have it both ways. We can say he was taking too big a risk in selling so many senior players and not replacing them, which is exactly what I said in September. But we can't then deny him the credit for the emergence of Rashford and others.
This is where our forum could do with a bit more nuance and less partisan adherence to pro-/anti-LVG lines. Not bringing in an extra forward to replace the departures of RVP, Hernandez, Januzaj and Falcao may well have been the season-dooming mistake we worried it was. We should be relaxed about acknowledging that at the same time as seeing Rashford's promotion as the flip-side of it, and giving LVG the credit for that consolation. You're allowed to still think LVG made the wrong call while accepting there has been a silver lining.
It reminds me of Moyes's season when people started to believe the manager was 100% wrong in every decision he made and totally incompetent in every aspect of management.
posted on 15/4/16
I'm assuming that Rashford was training with the first team for some time no?
It's not like the EL was the first time he kicked a ball.
I also suspect he let Wilson go because he isn't very good, not from what I have seen anyway, and maybe he was not great for squad dynamics or a bit full of himself.
There are many permutations but in reality I've always felt that managers get too much credit when things go well and too much grief when things go wrong.
It's about players in the main and they are all at his disposal.
posted on 15/4/16
I was being facetious.
posted on 15/4/16
You're allowed to still think LVG made the wrong call while accepting there has been a silver lining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't speak for anyone else but that's been my way of thinking all the way through.
posted on 15/4/16
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
I think there has been an element of randomness, rather than 'luck' per se, in the way players like Rashford have had and taken their chances. They didn't start the season as first choices and LVG didn't know in advance when they'd get their opportunities, nor which players would take them.
At the same time, the conscious decision to strip down the senior squad represents a bold element of design in giving academy players chances. I don't think we can have it both ways. We can say he was taking too big a risk in selling so many senior players and not replacing them, which is exactly what I said in September. But we can't then deny him the credit for the emergence of Rashford and others.
------------
Well said RR. And yet that is exactly what some of our fans on here do.
posted on 15/4/16
Robb shut up you cretin, you are a cancer to this place. For anyone to insinuate the emergence of these players is luck is bonkers.
posted on 15/4/16
comment by scholayScholes (U13961)
posted 1 minute ago
Robb shut up you cretin, you are a cancer to this place. For anyone to insinuate the emergence of these players is luck is bonkers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, angry again. Chill out.
posted on 15/4/16
comment by Robb - Yes way, Jose (U20351)
posted 8 minutes ago
You're allowed to still think LVG made the wrong call while accepting there has been a silver lining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't speak for anyone else but that's been my way of thinking all the way through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not talking about specific posters but some people have gone to lengths to downplay any credit LVG should get for the emergence of the youngsters. 'He's been a disaster and anything good that has come out of this season has been down to chance.'
posted on 15/4/16
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 seconds ago
comment by Robb - Yes way, Jose (U20351)
posted 8 minutes ago
You're allowed to still think LVG made the wrong call while accepting there has been a silver lining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't speak for anyone else but that's been my way of thinking all the way through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not talking about specific posters but some people have gone to lengths to downplay any credit LVG should get for the emergence of the youngsters. 'He's been a disaster and anything good that has come out of this season has been down to chance.'
-------------------
So Robb then?
posted on 15/4/16
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 seconds ago
comment by Robb - Yes way, Jose (U20351)
posted 8 minutes ago
You're allowed to still think LVG made the wrong call while accepting there has been a silver lining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't speak for anyone else but that's been my way of thinking all the way through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not talking about specific posters but some people have gone to lengths to downplay any credit LVG should get for the emergence of the youngsters. 'He's been a disaster and anything good that has come out of this season has been down to chance.'
-------------------
So Robb then?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 15/4/16
I have said that some things are down to luck - like Rashford and explained why.
Other things aren't down to luck - like us needing to rely on youth players in an injury crisis.
posted on 15/4/16
Red Russian will be the first to admit I debate with plenty of nuance. But some people on here have a solid idea and won't debate with it. I have debated and explained my stance just as MU82 has. But some don't accept that some luck has happened whereas some hasn't.
Why is that?
posted on 15/4/16
We all have our blind spots. I don't have any problem with the perennially wrong Aussie basterd.
posted on 15/4/16
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 28 seconds ago
We all have our blind spots. I don't have any problem with the perennially wrong Aussie basterd.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly i've been right far too much this season
posted on 15/4/16
comment by Robb - Yes way, Jose (U20351)
posted 20 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 28 seconds ago
We all have our blind spots. I don't have any problem with the perennially wrong Aussie basterd.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly i've been right far too much this season
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When?
City walking the league?
Liverpool signing quality plaeyrs and making a statement with Rodgers?
Ancelotti being our manager?
Jose being our manager
LvG being sacked?
Should I go on?
posted on 15/4/16
comment by Robb - Yes way, Jose (U20351)
posted 1 minute ago
Red Russian will be the first to admit I debate with plenty of nuance. But some people on here have a solid idea and won't debate with it. I have debated and explained my stance just as MU82 has. But some don't accept that some luck has happened whereas some hasn't.
Why is that?
----------------------
I have said that LVG won't have expected to use as many youth players as frequently as he has. I said it in my original post and I have said it again since in the discussion. I wouldn't really call it luck to have so many injuries, but I accept that not so many players would have been blooded if not for those injuries. But only an ostrich would stick their head in the sand and refuse to see that starting a season with 20 established players leaves the opportunity for youth the be promoted. Whether Rashford was in LVG's thinking from the off, or he needed to see more of him is largely irrelevant - he created an environment where youth could thrive, and on the whole it has. If the senior players had but in performances to match the youngsters we'd be doing much better in the league, irrespective of the injuries we've had.
posted on 15/4/16
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 4 minutes ago
We all have our blind spots. I don't have any problem with the perennially wrong Aussie basterd.
---------------
I'm kinda fond of him too.
posted on 15/4/16
Also, Welbeck leading Arsenal to the title?
The signing of Ramos?
Chelsea surpassing us?
West Ham beating us in the FA cup?
This belter?
http://www.ja606.co.uk/articles/viewArticle/318422
posted on 15/4/16
posted on 15/4/16
Is it not too early to attribute credit as well though and assess whether the silver lining is actually...silver?
By that, I mean that if you are judging whether the emergence of youth players has been a bonus, that can only be assessed when they have delivered what the expected outcome you want them to eventually achieve is, so if this group of players help you to achieve top four next season or in the future. That is still an unknown.
All that can be judged is the present against the expected outcome at this stage. Again, that can't be done until the end of the season and then that you believe the targets for this season were.
posted on 15/4/16
Thing is LvG has been mediocre this season. What I find irritating is that some for some reason would rather stab themselves in the eye than admit he has got some things right.
Nothing wrong with that. Hell, I even praised Moyes for stuff
posted on 15/4/16
I've been right about plenty of stuff...
1) Us needing to buy strikers and we have scored far less than any top 4 chasing side should have.
2) Liverpool doing well under Klopp and how they're in a better position for the future than us
3) Pep would join City
4) Bastian would be a problem with his injuries
5) City would do well in the CL. I said they'd beat PSG
6) I said Atletico would knock out Barca
7) I said Welbeck would start for Arsenal and he is one of their best performers this season
8) Back in November people said Leicester wouldn't last the pace and I said they'd make top 4
9) I said we wouldn't make it out of our cl group
10) I was right about DDG in a sense. he did 'leave' in that other than a freak of nature he would be at Real.
posted on 15/4/16
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 1 minute ago
Is it not too early to attribute credit as well though and assess whether the silver lining is actually...silver?
By that, I mean that if you are judging whether the emergence of youth players has been a bonus, that can only be assessed when they have delivered what the expected outcome you want them to eventually achieve is, so if this group of players help you to achieve top four next season or in the future. That is still an unknown.
All that can be judged is the present against the expected outcome at this stage. Again, that can't be done until the end of the season and then that you believe the targets for this season were.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A fair point.
Moyes' silver lining may have been Januzaj, but that silver got tarnished pretty quickly.
Last year Blackett and McNair saw plenty of action, where are they now?
I'd also like to think that it is blindingly obvious that LVG was supposed to promote youth alongside his other targets - 4th/3rd whatever, CL knockout stages, Europa League run - and not at the expense of them.
posted on 15/4/16
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 1 minute ago
Thing is LvG has been mediocre this season. What I find irritating is that some for some reason would rather stab themselves in the eye than admit he has got some things right.
Nothing wrong with that. Hell, I even praised Moyes for stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a single person in the history of this site hasn't given LVg a tiny bit of credit this season. Especially with some of the young players.
But I love how you're reinventing yourself as this fair guy who can't understand all these non fair people.
Brilliant wumming
posted on 15/4/16
melton, how important the emergence of Rashford etc. is remains to be seen, yes. What I'm talking about isn't an ultimate vindication or otherwise of LVG's strategy. (I don't think it is early to conclude that he has overseen a very disappointing season.) I'm talking about people who have been happy to see young players coming through and perform well but insisting LVG can't take credit for that.
Page 4 of 6
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