In principle, yes, the population is far too large. But it's more than that.
Barring a four horsemen of the apocalypse-type scenario, a drastic decrease in population is only going to come about through drastically improved living conditions. In turn though, that would massively drive up consumption.
Take a quick look at these figures:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
If economic development ever brought the average Indian, for example, in line with the average Brit in terms of spending power, you'd still be looking at hundreds of millions more mass consumers.
We're pretty facked.
My fairly trivial summary of where we are at...
Most people want a greener planet, but how many of those that are most passionate about it actually set an example?
The truth is, it is mainly seen as someone else's problem. "The Government" must do something, rather than greedy consumers that suck energy and spit carbon like nobodies business.
If you travel abroad on a plane, you are a hypocrite. If every human on Earth had one return journey a year (in theory), the total annual aeroplane journeys would climb from 36.5 million to 15 billion and the problem would be shocking.
This could be said of your car, probably your TV. Your electric bill because of all of your energy sucking devices.
You are the problem.
Nobody is giving these things up, and more people will want these comforts.
The only way the planet will be healthier is by cleaning up the mess we make, the mess will simply not cease to be made
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Leds, yes, we are all part of the problem - but with all due respect, I find your post rather demagogic. I'm sure you already realise that yourself.
By the same token, shouldn't we all be part of the solution, rather than pointing the finger at and demanding that only those who voice their concerns the loudest contribute to solving or dampening the problem?
The inescapable reality is that the situation requires political intervention. The efforts of any one individual can only have an infinitesimal effect. Thousands, or even millions acting on their own initiative would not be enough to bring consumption down to environmentally safe level.
Without political incentives encouraging renewable energies, recycling methods and the overall far more rational use of resources required, and discouraging environmentally irresponsible attitudes, we will have made the planet totally uninhabitable way before the sum of individual actions are able to do anything about it.
Having said that, in my personal experience I've found that people who voice strong environmental concerns do tend to have far more responsible attitudes towards consumption.
As a footnote, regarding flying I myself am guilty as charged. If everyone flew, the results would indeed be catastrophic.
That said though, your total flights estimate is 40 or 45 times higher than it should be, since those people would not be alone on the plane.
IATA figures for 2013 estimated 3.1 billion passengers in total - i.e. some 80 or 90 people per flight.
At today's averages 15 billion flights would carry an aggregate 279000000000 people a year.
comment by Wearethefamous THFC (U19211)
posted 2 hours, 28 minutes ago
For a greener planet we need to reduce human population so lets start by not building millions of new homes and encouraging people to bread like rabbits
-------__---------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Weare.
Globally, two is fairly average for number of kids in a home, until we go to Africa, for example, where sub-sahara woman have on average six kids, born into poverty.
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 3 minutes ago
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't that easy though bluebells, is it?
How do you encourage birth rates while you strip the welfare state down to its bones, and make the cost of raising, educating and providing healthcare for multiple children totally prohibitive?
What use is lowering taxes, theoretically putting more money into people's pockets, when it leaks out at an ever increasing rate, work and pay are increasingly poor and people also have to be able to stash for a private pension? On lower pay, lower coverage jobsharing?
A worker who's barely able to make ends meet isn't of much use to the system (machines increasingly doing more and more jobs anyway). The system requires workers to be consumers too, but the trend over the past 30 years has been for fewer people to horde more and more of the national wealth.
Big British families? Maybe a few of them among the top quintile of earners, you're not going to find that many below that level who are actually able to sustain them.
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 3 minutes ago
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bells
What do you mean by "make our workers graft"?
Do we not graft already?
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 3 minutes ago
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bells
What do you mean by "make our workers graft"?
Do we not graft already?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I meant unemployed as well as those workers in a job, as brits sit on the dole, and foreign born cheap labour does the gratfng.
White working class are falling way behind at school and in jobs.
Rich bosses want cheap migrant labour....major problem.
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 3 minutes ago
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't that easy though bluebells, is it?
How do you encourage birth rates while you strip the welfare state down to its bones, and make the cost of raising, educating and providing healthcare for multiple children totally prohibitive?
What use is lowering taxes, theoretically putting more money into people's pockets, when it leaks out at an ever increasing rate, work and pay are increasingly poor and people also have to be able to stash for a private pension? On lower pay, lower coverage jobsharing?
A worker who's barely able to make ends meet isn't of much use to the system (machines increasingly doing more and more jobs anyway). The system requires workers to be consumers too, but the trend over the past 30 years has been for fewer people to horde more and more of the national wealth.
Big British families? Maybe a few of them among the top quintile of earners, you're not going to find that many below that level who are actually able to sustain them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Automation will trump us all.
It was an observation, after hearing an expert say Only immigrants can save the uk, as we are old and lazy, and reliiant on others, rather than us having one more kid.
Germany got one million migrant workers from syria etc, as Merkle saw demographics, and panicked about those able to work after Germans had smaller famillies for decades.
Not an easy answer either, as the far right reflect German unhappiness with mass immigrarion.
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 3 minutes ago
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bells
What do you mean by "make our workers graft"?
Do we not graft already?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I meant unemployed as well as those workers in a job, as brits sit on the dole, and foreign born cheap labour does the gratfng.
White working class are falling way behind at school and in jobs.
Rich bosses want cheap migrant labour....major problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you meant unemployed as well. I didn't bring it up as it's obvious the unemployed should be brought back into the workplace.
Is it only 'foreign born cheap labour' that grafts?
Workers in the U.K. work the most hours, compared with workers on the continent (in terms of hours per week), have less bank holidays & less paid holiday. Add to the retirement age increasing over the last few years.
How much more should we be doing?
Struttocks, an interesting link for you on worldwide fertility rates:
http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/pdf/fertility/world-fertility-patterns-2015.pdf
The table on p.16 shows trends in fertility rates since 1970 and projections through to 2030. Not fast enough perhaps, but certainly some encouragement to be taken from there.
Experts say foreign born workers graft more than brits......their analysis thus justifying mass immigration.
Rich bosses and our globalization elite love migrant workers for cheap labour, and less rights.
Brit workers cannot or will notwork for less, so weare being pushed out, creating an underclass.
Many, many more foreign born people are also on benefits, bursting the myth all immigrants are graftin...I work in DWP, jsa so know the reality here.
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
Experts say foreign born workers graft more than brits......their analysis thus justifying mass immigration.
Rich bosses and our globalization elite love migrant workers for cheap labour, and less rights.
Brit workers cannot or will notwork for less, so weare being pushed out, creating an underclass.
Many, many more foreign born people are also on benefits, bursting the myth all immigrants are graftin...I work in DWP, jsa so know the reality here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You really do talk some utter claptrap.
comment by rossobianchi says WUBBA LUBBA DUB DUB! (U17054)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
Experts say foreign born workers graft more than brits......their analysis thus justifying mass immigration.
Rich bosses and our globalization elite love migrant workers for cheap labour, and less rights.
Brit workers cannot or will notwork for less, so weare being pushed out, creating an underclass.
Many, many more foreign born people are also on benefits, bursting the myth all immigrants are graftin...I work in DWP, jsa so know the reality here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You really do talk some utter claptrap.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Top repost😉
After recent election results and the populism in global polotics, you may be wrong.
Just imagine, another view from yours......go on, live a little.
Polotics, post- truth alt right speak😊
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 1 minute ago
Experts say foreign born workers graft more than brits......their analysis thus justifying mass immigration.
Rich bosses and our globalization elite love migrant workers for cheap labour, and less rights.
Brit workers cannot or will notwork for less, so weare being pushed out, creating an underclass.
Many, many more foreign born people are also on benefits, bursting the myth all immigrants are graftin...I work in DWP, jsa so know the reality here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're confusing "grafting" with working 50-60 hours pw because they are paid less than minimum wage. The issue isn't foreign workers it's companies offering these wages which is illegal and the government should crack down on, although they aren't keen to do so.
Quite right UK workers should refuse to work for less than minimum wage and less rights. Ideally anyone, regardless of where they're from, should refuse to work for less than minimum wage and with less rights. Your argument is the epitome of shifting the blame on foreign workers when it's the government, and businesses applying these practices, who should be scrutinsed.
How many foreign born people are on benefits? Do the DWP ask for place of birth when applying for benefits? (I'm glad to say I wouldn't know the answer to this). I recall we had this discussion before and asked the same question.
I don't subscribe to the notion that UK workers don't "graft" when, as highlighted in my previous post, we work the longest hours in Europe, have less bank holidays and less paid time off. We also retire later than our European counterparts. Suggesting we should be working more is detrimental and leading to us living to work, eroding work/life balance.
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by rossobianchi says WUBBA LUBBA DUB DUB! (U17054)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
Experts say foreign born workers graft more than brits......their analysis thus justifying mass immigration.
Rich bosses and our globalization elite love migrant workers for cheap labour, and less rights.
Brit workers cannot or will notwork for less, so weare being pushed out, creating an underclass.
Many, many more foreign born people are also on benefits, bursting the myth all immigrants are graftin...I work in DWP, jsa so know the reality here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You really do talk some utter claptrap.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Top repost😉
After recent election results and the populism in global polotics, you may be wrong.
Just imagine, another view from yours......go on, live a little.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can imagine it. The problem is what you post is contrary to actual facts.
Numerous posters, including myself, have posted links on this very thread to statistics that demonstrate that, for example, immigrants contribute more to the state coffers, as well as drawing less than native Brits; that they rely less on Jobseeker's Allowance or on Housing Benefit.
But you continue to come out with stuff like, "...many more foreign born people are also on benefits."
Which is just demonstrably untrue bluebells. It's a lie.
It's impossible to debate with people who just ignore cold, hard facts.
bluebells, without wishing to enter too deeply into issues I am sure we disagree upon but which we have both agreed are highly complex, surely most rich bosses love cheap labour regardless of skin colour.
The only colour most of them care about is the colour of money.
It's not narrow minded in the least, it's a comment on the current reality - i.e. a country that views immigrants as a threat rather than an asset and is in a mind to curb their numbers as much as possible.
---------
That in itself is narrow minded in thinking that people that live in this country will never need/want to leave to other territories.
Wtf are people going to do if a natural disaster hits the UK? We aren't immune to such phenomena, would they refuse to be a refugee/migrant?
immigrants contribute more to the state coffers, as well as drawing less than native Brits; that they rely less on Jobseeker's Allowance or on Housing Benefit
-----------------------------
You are not including the 1 Million illegals
comment by groovyduringthewar (U1054)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
immigrants contribute more to the state coffers, as well as drawing less than native Brits; that they rely less on Jobseeker's Allowance or on Housing Benefit
-----------------------------
You are not including the 1 Million illegals
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, if you are borrowing the one million figure from MigrationWatch, that estimate has been widely discredited by the Government, civil service and academics.
The last creditable, independent estimate came from LSE in 2007 and put the figure at 533,000. Although it is widely accepted the number will have increased since 2007, one million is likely a very large overestimate.
Secondly, illegal immigrants are unable to access Jobseeker's Allowance, Housing Benefit, or any other direct state credit by virtue of the fact they have no National Insurance Number. They are able to exploit free at point of service benefits, such as NHS treatment, but that notwithstanding, their draw on the state is likely to be, relatively speaking, very small.
Thirdly, nobody is arguing that illegal immigration is of benefit to the country. It'd be much better for everyone if those already in the UK were legalised and 'on the books' so they were accounted for in provisioning and could actively contribute directly to the state coffers through taxation.
Illegal people are working in the black economy,if you legalise them you create a void that will be filled by more illegal immigration,and so it goes on.
comment by groovyduringthewar (U1054)
posted 4 minutes ago
Illegal people are working in the black economy,if you legalise them you create a void that will be filled by more illegal immigration,and so it goes on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you saying there is no point in trying to police the black economy? Surely the employers are the issue here.
Its suits business and the police to have a black economy,the police now where they are and it does nothing ,just the occasional raid to appease the daily mail,massage parlours,mini cab offices,car wash sites,and many casual labour outlets,are all fertile grounds for employment to people without documentation.Business just sub contracts work out to smaller companies full well knowing the only way they can turn a profit is to employ dodgy labour,whats to stop any employee of the uber taxi company allowing his vehicle to be used by another party.?
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 7 hours, 40 minutes ago
Struttocks, an interesting link for you on worldwide fertility rates:
http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/pdf/fertility/world-fertility-patterns-2015.pdf
The table on p.16 shows trends in fertility rates since 1970 and projections through to 2030. Not fast enough perhaps, but certainly some encouragement to be taken from there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is encouraging although I agree not fast enough.
At the moment there seems to be very little thought out change to what to do when rightfully people do start being responsible and having less children.
I think what Germany are doing on a humanitarian level is right however economically it's not a sustainable answer to an aging population.
Constantly feeding people in at the bottom just creates a larger and larger bubble. As mentioned before the climate damage of say 1000 UK citizens could be the equivalent of 100,000 Rwandans (I've obviously made those figures up but you get the jist). Moving populations from the less-developed world to Europe will make things far worse long term climate wise.
Economically, the papers have just come out today with figures on underpaid, zero hour contracts in the care industry. This isn't the fault of anyone but a greedy government who are refusing to put anyone but their wealthy chums first.
You need stronger workers rights, better taxation and to build a future economic plan that involves less jobs and better welfare.
Instead we have idiots constantly voting in the people who drive down wages, cut services and reduce tax all the while blaming foreigners.
An immigrant, a worker and a politician are sitting at the table with 10 cookies. The politician takes 9 and then tells the worker "watch out, the immigrant is going to steal your cookie".
This quote was originally about bankers but IMO greedy bankers are just another symptom of a failing government.
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LIVE: Great Britain EU Referendum
Page 392 of 395
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posted on 16/11/16
In principle, yes, the population is far too large. But it's more than that.
Barring a four horsemen of the apocalypse-type scenario, a drastic decrease in population is only going to come about through drastically improved living conditions. In turn though, that would massively drive up consumption.
Take a quick look at these figures:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
If economic development ever brought the average Indian, for example, in line with the average Brit in terms of spending power, you'd still be looking at hundreds of millions more mass consumers.
We're pretty facked.
posted on 17/11/16
My fairly trivial summary of where we are at...
Most people want a greener planet, but how many of those that are most passionate about it actually set an example?
The truth is, it is mainly seen as someone else's problem. "The Government" must do something, rather than greedy consumers that suck energy and spit carbon like nobodies business.
If you travel abroad on a plane, you are a hypocrite. If every human on Earth had one return journey a year (in theory), the total annual aeroplane journeys would climb from 36.5 million to 15 billion and the problem would be shocking.
This could be said of your car, probably your TV. Your electric bill because of all of your energy sucking devices.
You are the problem.
Nobody is giving these things up, and more people will want these comforts.
The only way the planet will be healthier is by cleaning up the mess we make, the mess will simply not cease to be made
posted on 17/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 17/11/16
Leds, yes, we are all part of the problem - but with all due respect, I find your post rather demagogic. I'm sure you already realise that yourself.
By the same token, shouldn't we all be part of the solution, rather than pointing the finger at and demanding that only those who voice their concerns the loudest contribute to solving or dampening the problem?
The inescapable reality is that the situation requires political intervention. The efforts of any one individual can only have an infinitesimal effect. Thousands, or even millions acting on their own initiative would not be enough to bring consumption down to environmentally safe level.
Without political incentives encouraging renewable energies, recycling methods and the overall far more rational use of resources required, and discouraging environmentally irresponsible attitudes, we will have made the planet totally uninhabitable way before the sum of individual actions are able to do anything about it.
Having said that, in my personal experience I've found that people who voice strong environmental concerns do tend to have far more responsible attitudes towards consumption.
As a footnote, regarding flying I myself am guilty as charged. If everyone flew, the results would indeed be catastrophic.
That said though, your total flights estimate is 40 or 45 times higher than it should be, since those people would not be alone on the plane.
IATA figures for 2013 estimated 3.1 billion passengers in total - i.e. some 80 or 90 people per flight.
At today's averages 15 billion flights would carry an aggregate 279000000000 people a year.
posted on 17/11/16
comment by Wearethefamous THFC (U19211)
posted 2 hours, 28 minutes ago
For a greener planet we need to reduce human population so lets start by not building millions of new homes and encouraging people to bread like rabbits
-------__---------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Weare.
Globally, two is fairly average for number of kids in a home, until we go to Africa, for example, where sub-sahara woman have on average six kids, born into poverty.
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
posted on 17/11/16
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 3 minutes ago
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't that easy though bluebells, is it?
How do you encourage birth rates while you strip the welfare state down to its bones, and make the cost of raising, educating and providing healthcare for multiple children totally prohibitive?
What use is lowering taxes, theoretically putting more money into people's pockets, when it leaks out at an ever increasing rate, work and pay are increasingly poor and people also have to be able to stash for a private pension? On lower pay, lower coverage jobsharing?
A worker who's barely able to make ends meet isn't of much use to the system (machines increasingly doing more and more jobs anyway). The system requires workers to be consumers too, but the trend over the past 30 years has been for fewer people to horde more and more of the national wealth.
Big British families? Maybe a few of them among the top quintile of earners, you're not going to find that many below that level who are actually able to sustain them.
posted on 17/11/16
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 3 minutes ago
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bells
What do you mean by "make our workers graft"?
Do we not graft already?
posted on 17/11/16
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 3 minutes ago
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bells
What do you mean by "make our workers graft"?
Do we not graft already?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I meant unemployed as well as those workers in a job, as brits sit on the dole, and foreign born cheap labour does the gratfng.
White working class are falling way behind at school and in jobs.
Rich bosses want cheap migrant labour....major problem.
posted on 17/11/16
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 3 minutes ago
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't that easy though bluebells, is it?
How do you encourage birth rates while you strip the welfare state down to its bones, and make the cost of raising, educating and providing healthcare for multiple children totally prohibitive?
What use is lowering taxes, theoretically putting more money into people's pockets, when it leaks out at an ever increasing rate, work and pay are increasingly poor and people also have to be able to stash for a private pension? On lower pay, lower coverage jobsharing?
A worker who's barely able to make ends meet isn't of much use to the system (machines increasingly doing more and more jobs anyway). The system requires workers to be consumers too, but the trend over the past 30 years has been for fewer people to horde more and more of the national wealth.
Big British families? Maybe a few of them among the top quintile of earners, you're not going to find that many below that level who are actually able to sustain them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Automation will trump us all.
It was an observation, after hearing an expert say Only immigrants can save the uk, as we are old and lazy, and reliiant on others, rather than us having one more kid.
Germany got one million migrant workers from syria etc, as Merkle saw demographics, and panicked about those able to work after Germans had smaller famillies for decades.
Not an easy answer either, as the far right reflect German unhappiness with mass immigrarion.
posted on 17/11/16
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 3 minutes ago
Our liberal left elite say we need immigration to europe and the uk to do our jobs and look after us, rather than make our workers and unemoyed graft, or even, encourage Brits to have more children, by providing good childcare, healthcare and jobsharing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bells
What do you mean by "make our workers graft"?
Do we not graft already?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I meant unemployed as well as those workers in a job, as brits sit on the dole, and foreign born cheap labour does the gratfng.
White working class are falling way behind at school and in jobs.
Rich bosses want cheap migrant labour....major problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you meant unemployed as well. I didn't bring it up as it's obvious the unemployed should be brought back into the workplace.
Is it only 'foreign born cheap labour' that grafts?
Workers in the U.K. work the most hours, compared with workers on the continent (in terms of hours per week), have less bank holidays & less paid holiday. Add to the retirement age increasing over the last few years.
How much more should we be doing?
posted on 17/11/16
Struttocks, an interesting link for you on worldwide fertility rates:
http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/pdf/fertility/world-fertility-patterns-2015.pdf
The table on p.16 shows trends in fertility rates since 1970 and projections through to 2030. Not fast enough perhaps, but certainly some encouragement to be taken from there.
posted on 17/11/16
Experts say foreign born workers graft more than brits......their analysis thus justifying mass immigration.
Rich bosses and our globalization elite love migrant workers for cheap labour, and less rights.
Brit workers cannot or will notwork for less, so weare being pushed out, creating an underclass.
Many, many more foreign born people are also on benefits, bursting the myth all immigrants are graftin...I work in DWP, jsa so know the reality here.
posted on 17/11/16
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
Experts say foreign born workers graft more than brits......their analysis thus justifying mass immigration.
Rich bosses and our globalization elite love migrant workers for cheap labour, and less rights.
Brit workers cannot or will notwork for less, so weare being pushed out, creating an underclass.
Many, many more foreign born people are also on benefits, bursting the myth all immigrants are graftin...I work in DWP, jsa so know the reality here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You really do talk some utter claptrap.
posted on 17/11/16
comment by rossobianchi says WUBBA LUBBA DUB DUB! (U17054)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
Experts say foreign born workers graft more than brits......their analysis thus justifying mass immigration.
Rich bosses and our globalization elite love migrant workers for cheap labour, and less rights.
Brit workers cannot or will notwork for less, so weare being pushed out, creating an underclass.
Many, many more foreign born people are also on benefits, bursting the myth all immigrants are graftin...I work in DWP, jsa so know the reality here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You really do talk some utter claptrap.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Top repost😉
After recent election results and the populism in global polotics, you may be wrong.
Just imagine, another view from yours......go on, live a little.
posted on 17/11/16
Polotics, post- truth alt right speak😊
posted on 17/11/16
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 1 minute ago
Experts say foreign born workers graft more than brits......their analysis thus justifying mass immigration.
Rich bosses and our globalization elite love migrant workers for cheap labour, and less rights.
Brit workers cannot or will notwork for less, so weare being pushed out, creating an underclass.
Many, many more foreign born people are also on benefits, bursting the myth all immigrants are graftin...I work in DWP, jsa so know the reality here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're confusing "grafting" with working 50-60 hours pw because they are paid less than minimum wage. The issue isn't foreign workers it's companies offering these wages which is illegal and the government should crack down on, although they aren't keen to do so.
Quite right UK workers should refuse to work for less than minimum wage and less rights. Ideally anyone, regardless of where they're from, should refuse to work for less than minimum wage and with less rights. Your argument is the epitome of shifting the blame on foreign workers when it's the government, and businesses applying these practices, who should be scrutinsed.
How many foreign born people are on benefits? Do the DWP ask for place of birth when applying for benefits? (I'm glad to say I wouldn't know the answer to this). I recall we had this discussion before and asked the same question.
I don't subscribe to the notion that UK workers don't "graft" when, as highlighted in my previous post, we work the longest hours in Europe, have less bank holidays and less paid time off. We also retire later than our European counterparts. Suggesting we should be working more is detrimental and leading to us living to work, eroding work/life balance.
posted on 17/11/16
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by rossobianchi says WUBBA LUBBA DUB DUB! (U17054)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
Experts say foreign born workers graft more than brits......their analysis thus justifying mass immigration.
Rich bosses and our globalization elite love migrant workers for cheap labour, and less rights.
Brit workers cannot or will notwork for less, so weare being pushed out, creating an underclass.
Many, many more foreign born people are also on benefits, bursting the myth all immigrants are graftin...I work in DWP, jsa so know the reality here.
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You really do talk some utter claptrap.
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Top repost😉
After recent election results and the populism in global polotics, you may be wrong.
Just imagine, another view from yours......go on, live a little.
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I can imagine it. The problem is what you post is contrary to actual facts.
Numerous posters, including myself, have posted links on this very thread to statistics that demonstrate that, for example, immigrants contribute more to the state coffers, as well as drawing less than native Brits; that they rely less on Jobseeker's Allowance or on Housing Benefit.
But you continue to come out with stuff like, "...many more foreign born people are also on benefits."
Which is just demonstrably untrue bluebells. It's a lie.
It's impossible to debate with people who just ignore cold, hard facts.
posted on 17/11/16
bluebells, without wishing to enter too deeply into issues I am sure we disagree upon but which we have both agreed are highly complex, surely most rich bosses love cheap labour regardless of skin colour.
The only colour most of them care about is the colour of money.
posted on 17/11/16
It's not narrow minded in the least, it's a comment on the current reality - i.e. a country that views immigrants as a threat rather than an asset and is in a mind to curb their numbers as much as possible.
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That in itself is narrow minded in thinking that people that live in this country will never need/want to leave to other territories.
Wtf are people going to do if a natural disaster hits the UK? We aren't immune to such phenomena, would they refuse to be a refugee/migrant?
posted on 17/11/16
immigrants contribute more to the state coffers, as well as drawing less than native Brits; that they rely less on Jobseeker's Allowance or on Housing Benefit
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You are not including the 1 Million illegals
posted on 17/11/16
comment by groovyduringthewar (U1054)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
immigrants contribute more to the state coffers, as well as drawing less than native Brits; that they rely less on Jobseeker's Allowance or on Housing Benefit
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You are not including the 1 Million illegals
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Firstly, if you are borrowing the one million figure from MigrationWatch, that estimate has been widely discredited by the Government, civil service and academics.
The last creditable, independent estimate came from LSE in 2007 and put the figure at 533,000. Although it is widely accepted the number will have increased since 2007, one million is likely a very large overestimate.
Secondly, illegal immigrants are unable to access Jobseeker's Allowance, Housing Benefit, or any other direct state credit by virtue of the fact they have no National Insurance Number. They are able to exploit free at point of service benefits, such as NHS treatment, but that notwithstanding, their draw on the state is likely to be, relatively speaking, very small.
Thirdly, nobody is arguing that illegal immigration is of benefit to the country. It'd be much better for everyone if those already in the UK were legalised and 'on the books' so they were accounted for in provisioning and could actively contribute directly to the state coffers through taxation.
posted on 17/11/16
Illegal people are working in the black economy,if you legalise them you create a void that will be filled by more illegal immigration,and so it goes on.
posted on 17/11/16
comment by groovyduringthewar (U1054)
posted 4 minutes ago
Illegal people are working in the black economy,if you legalise them you create a void that will be filled by more illegal immigration,and so it goes on.
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Are you saying there is no point in trying to police the black economy? Surely the employers are the issue here.
posted on 17/11/16
Its suits business and the police to have a black economy,the police now where they are and it does nothing ,just the occasional raid to appease the daily mail,massage parlours,mini cab offices,car wash sites,and many casual labour outlets,are all fertile grounds for employment to people without documentation.Business just sub contracts work out to smaller companies full well knowing the only way they can turn a profit is to employ dodgy labour,whats to stop any employee of the uber taxi company allowing his vehicle to be used by another party.?
posted on 17/11/16
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 7 hours, 40 minutes ago
Struttocks, an interesting link for you on worldwide fertility rates:
http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/pdf/fertility/world-fertility-patterns-2015.pdf
The table on p.16 shows trends in fertility rates since 1970 and projections through to 2030. Not fast enough perhaps, but certainly some encouragement to be taken from there.
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That is encouraging although I agree not fast enough.
At the moment there seems to be very little thought out change to what to do when rightfully people do start being responsible and having less children.
I think what Germany are doing on a humanitarian level is right however economically it's not a sustainable answer to an aging population.
Constantly feeding people in at the bottom just creates a larger and larger bubble. As mentioned before the climate damage of say 1000 UK citizens could be the equivalent of 100,000 Rwandans (I've obviously made those figures up but you get the jist). Moving populations from the less-developed world to Europe will make things far worse long term climate wise.
Economically, the papers have just come out today with figures on underpaid, zero hour contracts in the care industry. This isn't the fault of anyone but a greedy government who are refusing to put anyone but their wealthy chums first.
You need stronger workers rights, better taxation and to build a future economic plan that involves less jobs and better welfare.
Instead we have idiots constantly voting in the people who drive down wages, cut services and reduce tax all the while blaming foreigners.
An immigrant, a worker and a politician are sitting at the table with 10 cookies. The politician takes 9 and then tells the worker "watch out, the immigrant is going to steal your cookie".
This quote was originally about bankers but IMO greedy bankers are just another symptom of a failing government.
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