comment by Sir Robert Paisley says 'King Salah, 'man's mine' (U3823)
posted 4 minutes ago
Ahhhhhhhh well I apologise profusely then.
The last bit of my comment was..... '(no racist pun intended (but it wouldn't surprise me if someone on here accused me of it )' .....so when you said ...'You aren't far off. That's for sure'......it sounded like you were saying I wasn't far off being racist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah not at all. Just read a recent interview with Mark Walters that was posted on here and think I'm glad stuff gets taken seriously regardless of validity.
comment by The Verbal Jouster (U11370)
posted 7 minutes ago
Don’t engage with me in here Arouna, I’ll ignore you as that’s what you deserve, act like a cvnt and I’ll treat you like one
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No evidence then. Thought so you coward.
Is'nt Firmino black himself?
It should certainly be taken seriously but people need to remember that those accused are innocent until proven guilty and nobody at LFC has ever been found guilty of making racist remarks.
Ever.
comment by Desperate Dier (U6468)
posted 1 minute ago
Is'nt Firmino black himself?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like Griezmann?
comment by Rouge (U19907)
posted 54 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Rouge (U19907)
posted 38 seconds ago
If holgate isnt 100% in what he heard he should retract his statement. However if found thaf it that it wasnt he should be punished as he needs to be 100% before making a claim like that damaging a mans rep
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He might feel he was 100% but actually misheard. It doesn't matter if that's true or not just that it's a possibility. With it being a possibility you would have to prove it isn't the case, which you can't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True. So what should happen is Holgate is given a choice. Press ahead with his claim but if proven wrong he gets a ban.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Get a ban for believing you heard something as may be the case here? Yeah that would really show the FA are open to people reporting racial abuse.
comment by Desperate Dier (U6468)
posted 18 minutes ago
Is'nt Firmino black himself?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is Brazilian.
Holgate is English/Caribbean
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector ... (U1282)
posted 11 seconds ago
Yeah but where does Holgate get the n word from.
If this is true Firmino said nothing that could be mistaken as the n word.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From trying to get out of being punished after his malicious act of pushing Firmino over the advertising boards.
=======
By bringing up the n word?
The investigation should bring clarity.
Fun fact.
In the most recent surgery/data collection Chelsea were deemed to be the most racist club based on police complaints.
Facts are fun.
Opinions are not as good as facts.
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector of the innocent, Master of Disaster, King of Sting, Dancing Destroyer, and Count of Monte Fisto (U1282)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector ... (U1282)
posted 11 seconds ago
Yeah but where does Holgate get the n word from.
If this is true Firmino said nothing that could be mistaken as the n word.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From trying to get out of being punished after his malicious act of pushing Firmino over the advertising boards.
=======
By bringing up the n word?
The investigation should bring clarity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wonder if we’ll see a verdict based on the balance of probability
“Could he be maliciously making the accusation? Yeah, it’s possible. But to punish someone for reporting an incident would deter all others from reporting - nobody wants that, it’s totally the wrong message.“
If Holgate did make the accusation up then he should be punished. What comes after that, whether it deters others from reporting etc, will be down to the FA, Everton FC and Holgate himself to address. Why should Firmino, and LFC, have their name tarnished while Holgate gets away scot free?
I’m saying this IF it’s proven he’s made it up.
comment by FieldsofAnnieRd (U18971)
posted 1 minute ago
“Could he be maliciously making the accusation? Yeah, it’s possible. But to punish someone for reporting an incident would deter all others from reporting - nobody wants that, it’s totally the wrong message.“
If Holgate did make the accusation up then he should be punished. What comes after that, whether it deters others from reporting etc, will be down to the FA, Everton FC and Holgate himself to address. Why should Firmino, and LFC, have their name tarnished while Holgate gets away scot free?
I’m saying this IF it’s proven he’s made it up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you prove it? That's impossible. You can't prove somebody didn't mishear something.
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnnieRd (U18971)
posted 1 minute ago
“Could he be maliciously making the accusation? Yeah, it’s possible. But to punish someone for reporting an incident would deter all others from reporting - nobody wants that, it’s totally the wrong message.“
If Holgate did make the accusation up then he should be punished. What comes after that, whether it deters others from reporting etc, will be down to the FA, Everton FC and Holgate himself to address. Why should Firmino, and LFC, have their name tarnished while Holgate gets away scot free?
I’m saying this IF it’s proven he’s made it up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you prove it? That's impossible. You can't prove somebody didn't mishear something.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess how different what was actually said compared to what Holgate says he heard would be the only thing to go off there.
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnnieRd (U18971)
posted 1 minute ago
“Could he be maliciously making the accusation? Yeah, it’s possible. But to punish someone for reporting an incident would deter all others from reporting - nobody wants that, it’s totally the wrong message.“
If Holgate did make the accusation up then he should be punished. What comes after that, whether it deters others from reporting etc, will be down to the FA, Everton FC and Holgate himself to address. Why should Firmino, and LFC, have their name tarnished while Holgate gets away scot free?
I’m saying this IF it’s proven he’s made it up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you prove it? That's impossible. You can't prove somebody didn't mishear something.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess how different what was actually said compared to what Holgate says he heard would be the only thing to go off there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I don't even think it will be under consideration. They won't want to be seen as making it more difficult for people to come forward who feel they have been racially abused.
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 5 hours, 49 minutes ago
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector ... (U1282)
posted 11 seconds ago
Yeah but where does Holgate get the n word from.
If this is true Firmino said nothing that could be mistaken as the n word.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From trying to get out of being punished after his malicious act of pushing Firmino over the advertising boards.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This
Yeah I don't even think it will be under consideration. They won't want to be seen as making it more difficult for people to come forward who feel they have been racially abused.
======
What about victims like Firmino, who would suffer serious defamation and lose standing in society because of such claims.
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector ... (U1282)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
Yeah I don't even think it will be under consideration. They won't want to be seen as making it more difficult for people to come forward who feel they have been racially abused.
======
What about victims like Firmino, who would suffer serious defamation and lose standing in society because of such claims.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately you can't have both, it's one or the other and the reason for this is proof is very difficult first and foremost and secondly solving racism within football is seen as a much bigger problem than catching people playing the race card. Rightly so I'd say.
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 1 hour, 56 minutes ago
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector ... (U1282)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
Yeah I don't even think it will be under consideration. They won't want to be seen as making it more difficult for people to come forward who feel they have been racially abused.
======
What about victims like Firmino, who would suffer serious defamation and lose standing in society because of such claims.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately you can't have both, it's one or the other and the reason for this is proof is very difficult first and foremost and secondly solving racism within football is seen as a much bigger problem than catching people playing the race card. Rightly so I'd say.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree 100%, it has no place in Football or any sport. Unfortunately there are those who will abuse that situation, and while I am not implying Holgate is such an example, if he is found to have introduced the allegation of racism as a distraction from his own violent behavior he should face a significant ban. This is because it risks impacting on the credibility and reputation of the No Racism initiative which nobody would want to see.
Just on OP.
Lip reader is missing 2/3 words after the p*ta
The only thing that prevents there from being solid evidence that Firmino is innocent is the fact that Jonjoe Kenny gets in the way as Firmino said something (you can see his head move back which indicates he said something). But even so, the ref has apparently written in his report that he didn't hear him say it, and he would have sent him off if he did. If Firmino did say it, there's no way the ref wouldn't have heard it as it was basically right down his ear.
Just on OP.
Lip reader is missing 2/3 words after the p*ta
=======================================================
Yes, that’s the critical bit (something ending in ‘o&rsquo.
Up until the ‘filho da p*ta’ , Holgate is just grinning at Firmino (evidently pleased with his schoolboy prank of pushing an off-balance player over a wall). He only reacts after that, but by then Firmino is obscured from the camera angle.
Holgate then grabs the ref and says “he f******g called me a n****r” and repeats it, twice more, to the Everton players pushing him away. (I never knew I was so good at lip-reading: I even caught the Portuguese bit, and my Portuguese is basic).
As others have said, the curious thing is that neither the referee, nor any of the other players who had jumped in to separate them, reacted to anything Firmino said, even though they were nearer. They didn’t even turn to look at him. Only Holgate reacted, and he was further away. Perhaps they’re not as fluent in Portuguese as Holgate, or perhaps he said it in English and they’re a bit deaf, I don’t know.
The referee was so close that I initially assumed his mic would have picked it up, but I’m beginning to wonder now, because if that is the case, surely they would already have grounds to charge Firmino?
It will be surprising if it turns out that Holgate knows the derogatory term for a black man in Portuguese, because it’s not obvious to English-speakers in the way that the Spanish term is. But you never know.
My missus looked over my shoulder while I was watching it, and said “Oh God, does this mean we’re going to get all that schoolgirl hysteria again? I’m against racism, obviously, but these poor little rich boys need to get over themselves"
* That should have read: 'Something ending in 'o'
surely something would have come out by now, the evra stuff was immediate
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 59 minutes ago
The only thing that prevents there from being solid evidence that Firmino is innocent is the fact that Jonjoe Kenny gets in the way as Firmino said something (you can see his head move back which indicates he said something). But even so, the ref has apparently written in his report that he didn't hear him say it, and he would have sent him off if he did. If Firmino did say it, there's no way the ref wouldn't have heard it as it was basically right down his ear.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope it’s all a misunderstanding and will be cleared up, nice joint statement etc.
Even if it's cleared up even if firmino was found guilty, Holgate needs a ban for assault, and endangering the crowd.
And it needs to be made absolutely clear that is the reason why he has received the ban, what portion of the ban relates to which misdemeanour and also examples of a similar/same ban being applied so people can see he's not been punished for whistle blowing.
This will A: not deter future complaints about racism
And B: not set a precedent for getting away with assault by claiming racism.
And a public apology from Holgate for firmino due to the abuse Bobby has suffered since the interview, allegations of racism are hard to get back in the bottle.
Sign in if you want to comment
Firmino/Holgate
Page 5 of 6
6
posted on 7/1/18
comment by Sir Robert Paisley says 'King Salah, 'man's mine' (U3823)
posted 4 minutes ago
Ahhhhhhhh well I apologise profusely then.
The last bit of my comment was..... '(no racist pun intended (but it wouldn't surprise me if someone on here accused me of it )' .....so when you said ...'You aren't far off. That's for sure'......it sounded like you were saying I wasn't far off being racist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah not at all. Just read a recent interview with Mark Walters that was posted on here and think I'm glad stuff gets taken seriously regardless of validity.
posted on 7/1/18
comment by The Verbal Jouster (U11370)
posted 7 minutes ago
Don’t engage with me in here Arouna, I’ll ignore you as that’s what you deserve, act like a cvnt and I’ll treat you like one
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No evidence then. Thought so you coward.
posted on 7/1/18
Is'nt Firmino black himself?
posted on 7/1/18
It should certainly be taken seriously but people need to remember that those accused are innocent until proven guilty and nobody at LFC has ever been found guilty of making racist remarks.
Ever.
posted on 7/1/18
comment by Desperate Dier (U6468)
posted 1 minute ago
Is'nt Firmino black himself?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like Griezmann?
posted on 7/1/18
comment by Rouge (U19907)
posted 54 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Rouge (U19907)
posted 38 seconds ago
If holgate isnt 100% in what he heard he should retract his statement. However if found thaf it that it wasnt he should be punished as he needs to be 100% before making a claim like that damaging a mans rep
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He might feel he was 100% but actually misheard. It doesn't matter if that's true or not just that it's a possibility. With it being a possibility you would have to prove it isn't the case, which you can't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True. So what should happen is Holgate is given a choice. Press ahead with his claim but if proven wrong he gets a ban.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Get a ban for believing you heard something as may be the case here? Yeah that would really show the FA are open to people reporting racial abuse.
posted on 7/1/18
comment by Desperate Dier (U6468)
posted 18 minutes ago
Is'nt Firmino black himself?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is Brazilian.
Holgate is English/Caribbean
posted on 7/1/18
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector ... (U1282)
posted 11 seconds ago
Yeah but where does Holgate get the n word from.
If this is true Firmino said nothing that could be mistaken as the n word.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From trying to get out of being punished after his malicious act of pushing Firmino over the advertising boards.
=======
By bringing up the n word?
The investigation should bring clarity.
posted on 7/1/18
Fun fact.
In the most recent surgery/data collection Chelsea were deemed to be the most racist club based on police complaints.
Facts are fun.
Opinions are not as good as facts.
posted on 7/1/18
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector of the innocent, Master of Disaster, King of Sting, Dancing Destroyer, and Count of Monte Fisto (U1282)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector ... (U1282)
posted 11 seconds ago
Yeah but where does Holgate get the n word from.
If this is true Firmino said nothing that could be mistaken as the n word.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From trying to get out of being punished after his malicious act of pushing Firmino over the advertising boards.
=======
By bringing up the n word?
The investigation should bring clarity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wonder if we’ll see a verdict based on the balance of probability
posted on 7/1/18
“Could he be maliciously making the accusation? Yeah, it’s possible. But to punish someone for reporting an incident would deter all others from reporting - nobody wants that, it’s totally the wrong message.“
If Holgate did make the accusation up then he should be punished. What comes after that, whether it deters others from reporting etc, will be down to the FA, Everton FC and Holgate himself to address. Why should Firmino, and LFC, have their name tarnished while Holgate gets away scot free?
I’m saying this IF it’s proven he’s made it up.
posted on 7/1/18
comment by FieldsofAnnieRd (U18971)
posted 1 minute ago
“Could he be maliciously making the accusation? Yeah, it’s possible. But to punish someone for reporting an incident would deter all others from reporting - nobody wants that, it’s totally the wrong message.“
If Holgate did make the accusation up then he should be punished. What comes after that, whether it deters others from reporting etc, will be down to the FA, Everton FC and Holgate himself to address. Why should Firmino, and LFC, have their name tarnished while Holgate gets away scot free?
I’m saying this IF it’s proven he’s made it up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you prove it? That's impossible. You can't prove somebody didn't mishear something.
posted on 7/1/18
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnnieRd (U18971)
posted 1 minute ago
“Could he be maliciously making the accusation? Yeah, it’s possible. But to punish someone for reporting an incident would deter all others from reporting - nobody wants that, it’s totally the wrong message.“
If Holgate did make the accusation up then he should be punished. What comes after that, whether it deters others from reporting etc, will be down to the FA, Everton FC and Holgate himself to address. Why should Firmino, and LFC, have their name tarnished while Holgate gets away scot free?
I’m saying this IF it’s proven he’s made it up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you prove it? That's impossible. You can't prove somebody didn't mishear something.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess how different what was actually said compared to what Holgate says he heard would be the only thing to go off there.
posted on 7/1/18
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnnieRd (U18971)
posted 1 minute ago
“Could he be maliciously making the accusation? Yeah, it’s possible. But to punish someone for reporting an incident would deter all others from reporting - nobody wants that, it’s totally the wrong message.“
If Holgate did make the accusation up then he should be punished. What comes after that, whether it deters others from reporting etc, will be down to the FA, Everton FC and Holgate himself to address. Why should Firmino, and LFC, have their name tarnished while Holgate gets away scot free?
I’m saying this IF it’s proven he’s made it up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you prove it? That's impossible. You can't prove somebody didn't mishear something.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess how different what was actually said compared to what Holgate says he heard would be the only thing to go off there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I don't even think it will be under consideration. They won't want to be seen as making it more difficult for people to come forward who feel they have been racially abused.
posted on 7/1/18
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 5 hours, 49 minutes ago
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector ... (U1282)
posted 11 seconds ago
Yeah but where does Holgate get the n word from.
If this is true Firmino said nothing that could be mistaken as the n word.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From trying to get out of being punished after his malicious act of pushing Firmino over the advertising boards.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This
posted on 8/1/18
Yeah I don't even think it will be under consideration. They won't want to be seen as making it more difficult for people to come forward who feel they have been racially abused.
======
What about victims like Firmino, who would suffer serious defamation and lose standing in society because of such claims.
posted on 8/1/18
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector ... (U1282)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
Yeah I don't even think it will be under consideration. They won't want to be seen as making it more difficult for people to come forward who feel they have been racially abused.
======
What about victims like Firmino, who would suffer serious defamation and lose standing in society because of such claims.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately you can't have both, it's one or the other and the reason for this is proof is very difficult first and foremost and secondly solving racism within football is seen as a much bigger problem than catching people playing the race card. Rightly so I'd say.
posted on 8/1/18
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 1 hour, 56 minutes ago
comment by No Love - The Defender of the weak, Protector ... (U1282)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
Yeah I don't even think it will be under consideration. They won't want to be seen as making it more difficult for people to come forward who feel they have been racially abused.
======
What about victims like Firmino, who would suffer serious defamation and lose standing in society because of such claims.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately you can't have both, it's one or the other and the reason for this is proof is very difficult first and foremost and secondly solving racism within football is seen as a much bigger problem than catching people playing the race card. Rightly so I'd say.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree 100%, it has no place in Football or any sport. Unfortunately there are those who will abuse that situation, and while I am not implying Holgate is such an example, if he is found to have introduced the allegation of racism as a distraction from his own violent behavior he should face a significant ban. This is because it risks impacting on the credibility and reputation of the No Racism initiative which nobody would want to see.
posted on 8/1/18
Just on OP.
Lip reader is missing 2/3 words after the p*ta
posted on 8/1/18
The only thing that prevents there from being solid evidence that Firmino is innocent is the fact that Jonjoe Kenny gets in the way as Firmino said something (you can see his head move back which indicates he said something). But even so, the ref has apparently written in his report that he didn't hear him say it, and he would have sent him off if he did. If Firmino did say it, there's no way the ref wouldn't have heard it as it was basically right down his ear.
posted on 8/1/18
Just on OP.
Lip reader is missing 2/3 words after the p*ta
=======================================================
Yes, that’s the critical bit (something ending in ‘o&rsquo.
Up until the ‘filho da p*ta’ , Holgate is just grinning at Firmino (evidently pleased with his schoolboy prank of pushing an off-balance player over a wall). He only reacts after that, but by then Firmino is obscured from the camera angle.
Holgate then grabs the ref and says “he f******g called me a n****r” and repeats it, twice more, to the Everton players pushing him away. (I never knew I was so good at lip-reading: I even caught the Portuguese bit, and my Portuguese is basic).
As others have said, the curious thing is that neither the referee, nor any of the other players who had jumped in to separate them, reacted to anything Firmino said, even though they were nearer. They didn’t even turn to look at him. Only Holgate reacted, and he was further away. Perhaps they’re not as fluent in Portuguese as Holgate, or perhaps he said it in English and they’re a bit deaf, I don’t know.
The referee was so close that I initially assumed his mic would have picked it up, but I’m beginning to wonder now, because if that is the case, surely they would already have grounds to charge Firmino?
It will be surprising if it turns out that Holgate knows the derogatory term for a black man in Portuguese, because it’s not obvious to English-speakers in the way that the Spanish term is. But you never know.
My missus looked over my shoulder while I was watching it, and said “Oh God, does this mean we’re going to get all that schoolgirl hysteria again? I’m against racism, obviously, but these poor little rich boys need to get over themselves"
posted on 8/1/18
* That should have read: 'Something ending in 'o'
posted on 8/1/18
surely something would have come out by now, the evra stuff was immediate
posted on 8/1/18
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 59 minutes ago
The only thing that prevents there from being solid evidence that Firmino is innocent is the fact that Jonjoe Kenny gets in the way as Firmino said something (you can see his head move back which indicates he said something). But even so, the ref has apparently written in his report that he didn't hear him say it, and he would have sent him off if he did. If Firmino did say it, there's no way the ref wouldn't have heard it as it was basically right down his ear.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope it’s all a misunderstanding and will be cleared up, nice joint statement etc.
posted on 8/1/18
Even if it's cleared up even if firmino was found guilty, Holgate needs a ban for assault, and endangering the crowd.
And it needs to be made absolutely clear that is the reason why he has received the ban, what portion of the ban relates to which misdemeanour and also examples of a similar/same ban being applied so people can see he's not been punished for whistle blowing.
This will A: not deter future complaints about racism
And B: not set a precedent for getting away with assault by claiming racism.
And a public apology from Holgate for firmino due to the abuse Bobby has suffered since the interview, allegations of racism are hard to get back in the bottle.
Page 5 of 6
6