comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 36 minutes ago
Oh and metro, trying to make out that a promise in the campaign is not actually a promise but just an opinion is semantics at best and blatant misleading in my view.
You needn’t look further than the side of a bus for examples of things that people were told and could reasonably have expected to be true, which have turned out to be utter crap.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahhh the big red bus. What would remainers do without it?
First things first - were you under the impression that the leave campaign would get to decide what happened to any potential brexit windfall?
Secondly, read the slogan again. It’s a suggestion, not a promise. You can shout semantics all you want but ‘Let’s’ isn’t the same as ‘We will’
Thirdly, the message itself was more around the control of money. That remains the case.
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by ®∆¢£¥ (U1282)
posted 8 minutes ago
The question should be whether voters based their votes on lies and falsehoods.
If leavers are so confident then why are they against another referendum? Surely it will only confirm your views when the country votes to leave again?
Or perhaps they are afraid the country has changed its mind which would actually be the democratic thing to do.
If this was a regular election, the winner would have resigned by now having promised the world but delivered nothing but hot air and tension. This shouldn't be any different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reasonable logic. Paragraph three is the sticking point for many I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reasonable logic?
You think that leavers being confident In their decision and winning the vote should mean they agree to another one?
I’m not sure where the logic is - perhaps you’d be kind enough to explain further.
It’s utterly bizarre how some remainers think.
Metro, it’s one of many examples of false promises - some more serious than others. Northern Ireland probably being the most serious.
If you’re actually going to argue that everyone knew what they were voting for and no one was misled then I’ll leave you to it as you’re clearly deluded.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
Metro, it’s one of many examples of false promises - some more serious than others. Northern Ireland probably being the most serious.
If you’re actually going to argue that everyone knew what they were voting for and no one was misled then I’ll leave you to it as you’re clearly deluded.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m starting to repeat myself. Promises and statements that were ill-thought were made on both sides. That does not render the vote void.
Many of the claims can be achieved in years to come.
I never claimed that everyone knew what they were voting for. I stated that there is no ambiguity in leaving the European Union. Don’t confuse it with the deal being brokered.
I’m still awaiting your explanation from before.
If leavers are so sure of their decision being the right one, then test it. You should win again.
———
But Leave won. Why would they want another vote just to be sure? Your logic is warped.
Project Fear was so ghastly. All the scare stories have proven to be guff.
Economy grew
Jobs went up
Unemployment went down
Manufacturing output up
Inward investment up
In the meantime, Euro crisis deepening, mass unemployment, EU army being pushed
Etc etc
I think some leavers have invested so heavily in this. They've been in arguments and have vehemently prophesied brexit for so long and so hard that they will never admit that this is not what was envisioned.
Its become personal because if brexit fails they'll see it as some sort of personal failure and a lot of people will say to them 'I told you so'. Not referring to anyone on this thread though.
Fact is, considering the way things have gone since the last referendum, its quite clear that trying to force things is foolish and another path must be taken whether its another referendum or suspend brexit for some years or whatever.
It doesn't have to be the end of brexit, even a boxer needs to reset his footwork every now and then. Its all good people voted to leave but if we make a bad deal it will be worse than staying for decades to come.
A good deal looks impossible at this time. Are we going to force the exit and loose an arm in the process or hold back for now and live to fight another day?
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
Metro, it’s one of many examples of false promises - some more serious than others. Northern Ireland probably being the most serious.
If you’re actually going to argue that everyone knew what they were voting for and no one was misled then I’ll leave you to it as you’re clearly deluded.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m starting to repeat myself. Promises and statements that were ill-thought were made on both sides. That does not render the vote void.
Many of the claims can be achieved in years to come.
I never claimed that everyone knew what they were voting for. I stated that there is no ambiguity in leaving the European Union. Don’t confuse it with the deal being brokered.
I’m still awaiting your explanation from before.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well maybe you can take up your issues with the people who did vote to leave and now would vote remain, stating that they’ve been misled.
There are plenty of them.
It was a campaign run on hypotheticals and a lot of those have already turned out to be nonsense, not to mention the complete lack of credible response to the NI issue, which people now readily accept as a big problem.
No one claimed it voids the vote. What people are saying is that it’s not illogical to ask people whether to agreement in place, or indeed no deal, is what they want or if, now they know the facts, whether actually they’d prefer to sack the whole thing off.
Perfectly credible question.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 4 minutes ago
If leavers are so sure of their decision being the right one, then test it. You should win again.
———
But Leave won. Why would they want another vote just to be sure? Your logic is warped.
Project Fear was so ghastly. All the scare stories have proven to be guff.
Economy grew
Jobs went up
Unemployment went down
Manufacturing output up
Inward investment up
In the meantime, Euro crisis deepening, mass unemployment, EU army being pushed
Etc etc
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were meant to have 800k unemployed in June 2016 and recession then too and isis invading while civil war kicked off in Ulster in three years ago.
We would be at the back of the queue with America and there would be no eu army....oh look, Obama lied and the eu army formed!
yea, the bus, the bus😀
Unemployment being down is the biggest Tory lie since, well, Brexit.
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 3 minutes ago
You even acknowledge that there were plenty of lies on both sides.
So that means that people didn't know what they were voting for.
How you can say that this doesn't make the vote void is beyond me.
If you believe that the lies and unknown outcomes are of no consequence, then indulge the many millions that want another vote.
You'll win again, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Dave.👍
As a leaver with a dislike of the Eu backed May deal, I am torn between just leaving with no deal or forgetting about it all and remaining!
I still think leave could hurt our economy short term, but if we just ignore the peoples vote we weaken democracy.
on another vote i still see few prepared to give specific questions????
Some who did not vote leave may come out tnis time and there coukd be a leave surge as the first vote is ignored.
I also hear some leavers like me have changed to a degree and other leavers are so fed up they will not vote again.
Another vote will split friends and family further and what if leave win, or remain scrape it....best of three?
Too big for my brain,,man🐷
comment by ®∆¢£¥ (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
I think some leavers have invested so heavily in this. They've been in arguments and have vehemently prophesied brexit for so long and so hard that they will never admit that this is not what was envisioned.
Its become personal because if brexit fails they'll see it as some sort of personal failure and a lot of people will say to them 'I told you so'. Not referring to anyone on this thread though.
Fact is, considering the way things have gone since the last referendum, its quite clear that trying to force things is foolish and another path must be taken whether its another referendum or suspend brexit for some years or whatever.
It doesn't have to be the end of brexit, even a boxer needs to reset his footwork every now and then. Its all good people voted to leave but if we make a bad deal it will be worse than staying for decades to come.
A good deal looks impossible at this time. Are we going to force the exit and loose an arm in the process or hold back for now and live to fight another day?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Insightful post....applies to me!
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 1 hour, 52 minutes ago
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 2 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 6 hours, 7 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinion is entirely based on conjecture.
As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible.
If you believe it is actually possible but the way the process has been managed has prevented that from happening then I suggest you don’t know what you’re talking about. We now know the extent of the issue in NI and we know that the leave campaign were wrong.
I don’t really care what you voted for. I’m telling you, for a fact, that a lot of people did vote for something that they can’t havs. The leave campaign was not for a no deal. I can show you quotes to prove that.
So the situation remains - it is entirely democratic to consider asking people, now they are in possession of facts rather than hypothetical posturing, do they still want to move forward.
Just because a certain element of idiots are happy with a no deal scenario does not mean that the country would be happy to vote for it so we need to be sure because it’s absolutely not whet was voted for in the referendum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post Winston.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Except it wasn’t because Winston said...
‘As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible’
But didn’t back this up with any credible explanation.
Some people are convinced self governance is impossible - its rather extraordinary.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you for real?
You really need us to lay out all the things that Brexiteers told us during the leave campaign that have turned out to be a big steaming pile of sheite?
If you seriously need that to be done then you’re probably beyond help in a debate like this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you make the claim that things weren’t deliverable and when I ask you to back it up with explanations, you flip it over and ask us to state the promises made - remarkable stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How can a post Brexit UK be in a separate regulatory and customs environment, and at the same time have no enforcement mechanisms in place to protect its own internal market?
This remains the fundamental unanswered question since the result.
"Maximum Facilitation, Border 2.0, Malthouse Compromise, Alternative Arrangements etc etc" have all been proven abject failures, and no amount of creative innovation/thinking can square this circle.
Which anyone with an understanding of trade policy (not named Singham) has stated time and time again.
As the UK will pretty much be in some sort of association arrangement (BRINO) with the EU ad infinitum, how is the UK "taking back control of its money, borders and laws" which was the overriding principle message from VL, which millions of people thought they were voting for?
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 18 minutes ago
If leavers are so sure of their decision being the right one, then test it. You should win again.
———
But Leave won. Why would they want another vote just to be sure? Your logic is warped.
Project Fear was so ghastly. All the scare stories have proven to be guff.
Economy grew
Jobs went up
Unemployment went down
Manufacturing output up
Inward investment up
In the meantime, Euro crisis deepening, mass unemployment, EU army being pushed
Etc etc
----------------------------------------------------------------------
UK manufacturing grew as firms stockpiled goods, (for a potential no deal) but sector now in a recession.
The global economy is slowing and it looks like the uncertainty surrounding Brexit would have led to a recession anyway. Brexit will only make this inevitable.
winston.
The NI issue has been ignored by most people for decades, and as a loyalist who crosses the border alot, we do not want a hard border.....nobody does.
Remain and the eu use the border to block brexit and pretend the GFA is at risk.Strsnd one of the GFA says ee require a shared government running Stormont, but SF walked out so the GFA is alresdy broken.
Strand two and three of the GFA require belfast and dublin co-operating, as well as GB and Eire, but that relationship has broken down as,well....abd dublin acts for northern natiinalists alone now.
The GFA respects the right of NI to be in the uk until voted otherwise, but the backstop separates Ulster from GB and shuns unionist rights.
So the border and backstop and GFA are often a stick to beat brexit with.
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 8 minutes ago
Unemployment being down is the biggest Tory lie since, well, Brexit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How many are unemp!oyed then?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a... (U6374)
posted 14 minutes ago
Unemployment being down is the biggest Tory lie since, well, Brexit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The ONS consider people on 0 hour contracts and working one hour a week is employment.
comment by Martial FC (U11781)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a... (U6374)
posted 14 minutes ago
Unemployment being down is the biggest Tory lie since, well, Brexit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The ONS consider people on 0 hour contracts and working one hour a week is employment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Laughable isn't it.
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 4 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 1 hour, 52 minutes ago
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 2 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 6 hours, 7 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinion is entirely based on conjecture.
As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible.
If you believe it is actually possible but the way the process has been managed has prevented that from happening then I suggest you don’t know what you’re talking about. We now know the extent of the issue in NI and we know that the leave campaign were wrong.
I don’t really care what you voted for. I’m telling you, for a fact, that a lot of people did vote for something that they can’t havs. The leave campaign was not for a no deal. I can show you quotes to prove that.
So the situation remains - it is entirely democratic to consider asking people, now they are in possession of facts rather than hypothetical posturing, do they still want to move forward.
Just because a certain element of idiots are happy with a no deal scenario does not mean that the country would be happy to vote for it so we need to be sure because it’s absolutely not whet was voted for in the referendum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post Winston.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Except it wasn’t because Winston said...
‘As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible’
But didn’t back this up with any credible explanation.
Some people are convinced self governance is impossible - its rather extraordinary.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you for real?
You really need us to lay out all the things that Brexiteers told us during the leave campaign that have turned out to be a big steaming pile of sheite?
If you seriously need that to be done then you’re probably beyond help in a debate like this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you make the claim that things weren’t deliverable and when I ask you to back it up with explanations, you flip it over and ask us to state the promises made - remarkable stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liam Fox saying a free trade deal with the EU will be the easiest trade deal in human history.
Try that one for starters Metro.
comment by Redinthehead - FreeGaza - فلسطين (U1860)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 4 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 1 hour, 52 minutes ago
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 2 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 6 hours, 7 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinion is entirely based on conjecture.
As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible.
If you believe it is actually possible but the way the process has been managed has prevented that from happening then I suggest you don’t know what you’re talking about. We now know the extent of the issue in NI and we know that the leave campaign were wrong.
I don’t really care what you voted for. I’m telling you, for a fact, that a lot of people did vote for something that they can’t havs. The leave campaign was not for a no deal. I can show you quotes to prove that.
So the situation remains - it is entirely democratic to consider asking people, now they are in possession of facts rather than hypothetical posturing, do they still want to move forward.
Just because a certain element of idiots are happy with a no deal scenario does not mean that the country would be happy to vote for it so we need to be sure because it’s absolutely not whet was voted for in the referendum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post Winston.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Except it wasn’t because Winston said...
‘As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible’
But didn’t back this up with any credible explanation.
Some people are convinced self governance is impossible - its rather extraordinary.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you for real?
You really need us to lay out all the things that Brexiteers told us during the leave campaign that have turned out to be a big steaming pile of sheite?
If you seriously need that to be done then you’re probably beyond help in a debate like this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you make the claim that things weren’t deliverable and when I ask you to back it up with explanations, you flip it over and ask us to state the promises made - remarkable stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liam Fox saying a free trade deal with the EU will be the easiest trade deal in human history.
Try that one for starters Metro.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Already been answered. You missed it.
Don’t confuse the ease of agreeing a deal with people’s reluctance to broker it.
Oh fvck off. It was pure arrogance coupled with naivety.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 hours, 34 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
Metro, it’s one of many examples of false promises - some more serious than others. Northern Ireland probably being the most serious.
If you’re actually going to argue that everyone knew what they were voting for and no one was misled then I’ll leave you to it as you’re clearly deluded.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m starting to repeat myself. Promises and statements that were ill-thought were made on both sides. That does not render the vote void.
Many of the claims can be achieved in years to come.
I never claimed that everyone knew what they were voting for. I stated that there is no ambiguity in leaving the European Union. Don’t confuse it with the deal being brokered.
I’m still awaiting your explanation from before.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well maybe you can take up your issues with the people who did vote to leave and now would vote remain, stating that they’ve been misled.
There are plenty of them.
It was a campaign run on hypotheticals and a lot of those have already turned out to be nonsense, not to mention the complete lack of credible response to the NI issue, which people now readily accept as a big problem.
No one claimed it voids the vote. What people are saying is that it’s not illogical to ask people whether to agreement in place, or indeed no deal, is what they want or if, now they know the facts, whether actually they’d prefer to sack the whole thing off.
Perfectly credible question.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t need to take up any issues. You’re the one who claimed that undeliverable promises were made. It is therefore up to you to back them with reason.
Of course it was a campaign run on hypotheticals. For example, the EU are pushing for Turkeys ascension into the Eu. Or, the EU want their own army.
Whilst both may not come to full fruition, it would’ve been bonkers not to warn the public of their intent.
Project Fear however didn’t do this. It intentionally tried to scare voters into backing remain with things like punishment budgets and costs per household - or how about the recession on a vote to leave. That was a despicable campaign.
It is illogical to ask people again because it justifies the EU to persist with this poor offer. This has been argued from the start. Give them the worst deal in history and they’ll reject it. You’d think Remain had won the referendum.
Lets all look back at the Treasury’s infamous warning that GDP would likely fall by 6% per cent and that unemployment would soar by up to 800,000 in the first two years after a vote to leave. This is going to be studied by generations of economists as an example of the most incredible incompetent and disingenuous forecasting 21st Century politics has ever seen.
It is the economic equivalent of the Iraq dossier, something that will damage government forecasting credibility for years to come - and rightly so.
As for people now knowing the facts - lets go through them....
Jobs - up (Remain Wrong)
Unemployment- down (Remain Wrong)
Manufacturing output - up (Remain Wrong)
Foreign investment- up (Remain Wrong)
Economy - grew (Remain Wrong)
Just what facts are you referring to exactly?
I've worked in employment for years and I don't believe those figures at all. Those employed are part of the working poor more often than not and we're not far off Victorian times for poverty.
Trying to spin that we're in a good state is sickening and straight out of the daily mail.
Sign in if you want to comment
Anti Brexit protest London
Page 8 of 10
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posted on 24/3/19
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 36 minutes ago
Oh and metro, trying to make out that a promise in the campaign is not actually a promise but just an opinion is semantics at best and blatant misleading in my view.
You needn’t look further than the side of a bus for examples of things that people were told and could reasonably have expected to be true, which have turned out to be utter crap.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahhh the big red bus. What would remainers do without it?
First things first - were you under the impression that the leave campaign would get to decide what happened to any potential brexit windfall?
Secondly, read the slogan again. It’s a suggestion, not a promise. You can shout semantics all you want but ‘Let’s’ isn’t the same as ‘We will’
Thirdly, the message itself was more around the control of money. That remains the case.
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by ®∆¢£¥ (U1282)
posted 8 minutes ago
The question should be whether voters based their votes on lies and falsehoods.
If leavers are so confident then why are they against another referendum? Surely it will only confirm your views when the country votes to leave again?
Or perhaps they are afraid the country has changed its mind which would actually be the democratic thing to do.
If this was a regular election, the winner would have resigned by now having promised the world but delivered nothing but hot air and tension. This shouldn't be any different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reasonable logic. Paragraph three is the sticking point for many I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reasonable logic?
You think that leavers being confident In their decision and winning the vote should mean they agree to another one?
I’m not sure where the logic is - perhaps you’d be kind enough to explain further.
It’s utterly bizarre how some remainers think.
posted on 24/3/19
Metro, it’s one of many examples of false promises - some more serious than others. Northern Ireland probably being the most serious.
If you’re actually going to argue that everyone knew what they were voting for and no one was misled then I’ll leave you to it as you’re clearly deluded.
posted on 24/3/19
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
Metro, it’s one of many examples of false promises - some more serious than others. Northern Ireland probably being the most serious.
If you’re actually going to argue that everyone knew what they were voting for and no one was misled then I’ll leave you to it as you’re clearly deluded.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m starting to repeat myself. Promises and statements that were ill-thought were made on both sides. That does not render the vote void.
Many of the claims can be achieved in years to come.
I never claimed that everyone knew what they were voting for. I stated that there is no ambiguity in leaving the European Union. Don’t confuse it with the deal being brokered.
I’m still awaiting your explanation from before.
posted on 24/3/19
If leavers are so sure of their decision being the right one, then test it. You should win again.
———
But Leave won. Why would they want another vote just to be sure? Your logic is warped.
Project Fear was so ghastly. All the scare stories have proven to be guff.
Economy grew
Jobs went up
Unemployment went down
Manufacturing output up
Inward investment up
In the meantime, Euro crisis deepening, mass unemployment, EU army being pushed
Etc etc
posted on 24/3/19
I think some leavers have invested so heavily in this. They've been in arguments and have vehemently prophesied brexit for so long and so hard that they will never admit that this is not what was envisioned.
Its become personal because if brexit fails they'll see it as some sort of personal failure and a lot of people will say to them 'I told you so'. Not referring to anyone on this thread though.
Fact is, considering the way things have gone since the last referendum, its quite clear that trying to force things is foolish and another path must be taken whether its another referendum or suspend brexit for some years or whatever.
It doesn't have to be the end of brexit, even a boxer needs to reset his footwork every now and then. Its all good people voted to leave but if we make a bad deal it will be worse than staying for decades to come.
A good deal looks impossible at this time. Are we going to force the exit and loose an arm in the process or hold back for now and live to fight another day?
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
Metro, it’s one of many examples of false promises - some more serious than others. Northern Ireland probably being the most serious.
If you’re actually going to argue that everyone knew what they were voting for and no one was misled then I’ll leave you to it as you’re clearly deluded.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m starting to repeat myself. Promises and statements that were ill-thought were made on both sides. That does not render the vote void.
Many of the claims can be achieved in years to come.
I never claimed that everyone knew what they were voting for. I stated that there is no ambiguity in leaving the European Union. Don’t confuse it with the deal being brokered.
I’m still awaiting your explanation from before.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well maybe you can take up your issues with the people who did vote to leave and now would vote remain, stating that they’ve been misled.
There are plenty of them.
It was a campaign run on hypotheticals and a lot of those have already turned out to be nonsense, not to mention the complete lack of credible response to the NI issue, which people now readily accept as a big problem.
No one claimed it voids the vote. What people are saying is that it’s not illogical to ask people whether to agreement in place, or indeed no deal, is what they want or if, now they know the facts, whether actually they’d prefer to sack the whole thing off.
Perfectly credible question.
posted on 24/3/19
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 4 minutes ago
If leavers are so sure of their decision being the right one, then test it. You should win again.
———
But Leave won. Why would they want another vote just to be sure? Your logic is warped.
Project Fear was so ghastly. All the scare stories have proven to be guff.
Economy grew
Jobs went up
Unemployment went down
Manufacturing output up
Inward investment up
In the meantime, Euro crisis deepening, mass unemployment, EU army being pushed
Etc etc
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were meant to have 800k unemployed in June 2016 and recession then too and isis invading while civil war kicked off in Ulster in three years ago.
We would be at the back of the queue with America and there would be no eu army....oh look, Obama lied and the eu army formed!
yea, the bus, the bus😀
posted on 24/3/19
Unemployment being down is the biggest Tory lie since, well, Brexit.
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 3 minutes ago
You even acknowledge that there were plenty of lies on both sides.
So that means that people didn't know what they were voting for.
How you can say that this doesn't make the vote void is beyond me.
If you believe that the lies and unknown outcomes are of no consequence, then indulge the many millions that want another vote.
You'll win again, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Dave.👍
As a leaver with a dislike of the Eu backed May deal, I am torn between just leaving with no deal or forgetting about it all and remaining!
I still think leave could hurt our economy short term, but if we just ignore the peoples vote we weaken democracy.
on another vote i still see few prepared to give specific questions????
Some who did not vote leave may come out tnis time and there coukd be a leave surge as the first vote is ignored.
I also hear some leavers like me have changed to a degree and other leavers are so fed up they will not vote again.
Another vote will split friends and family further and what if leave win, or remain scrape it....best of three?
Too big for my brain,,man🐷
posted on 24/3/19
comment by ®∆¢£¥ (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
I think some leavers have invested so heavily in this. They've been in arguments and have vehemently prophesied brexit for so long and so hard that they will never admit that this is not what was envisioned.
Its become personal because if brexit fails they'll see it as some sort of personal failure and a lot of people will say to them 'I told you so'. Not referring to anyone on this thread though.
Fact is, considering the way things have gone since the last referendum, its quite clear that trying to force things is foolish and another path must be taken whether its another referendum or suspend brexit for some years or whatever.
It doesn't have to be the end of brexit, even a boxer needs to reset his footwork every now and then. Its all good people voted to leave but if we make a bad deal it will be worse than staying for decades to come.
A good deal looks impossible at this time. Are we going to force the exit and loose an arm in the process or hold back for now and live to fight another day?
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Insightful post....applies to me!
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 1 hour, 52 minutes ago
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 2 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 6 hours, 7 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinion is entirely based on conjecture.
As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible.
If you believe it is actually possible but the way the process has been managed has prevented that from happening then I suggest you don’t know what you’re talking about. We now know the extent of the issue in NI and we know that the leave campaign were wrong.
I don’t really care what you voted for. I’m telling you, for a fact, that a lot of people did vote for something that they can’t havs. The leave campaign was not for a no deal. I can show you quotes to prove that.
So the situation remains - it is entirely democratic to consider asking people, now they are in possession of facts rather than hypothetical posturing, do they still want to move forward.
Just because a certain element of idiots are happy with a no deal scenario does not mean that the country would be happy to vote for it so we need to be sure because it’s absolutely not whet was voted for in the referendum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post Winston.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Except it wasn’t because Winston said...
‘As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible’
But didn’t back this up with any credible explanation.
Some people are convinced self governance is impossible - its rather extraordinary.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you for real?
You really need us to lay out all the things that Brexiteers told us during the leave campaign that have turned out to be a big steaming pile of sheite?
If you seriously need that to be done then you’re probably beyond help in a debate like this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you make the claim that things weren’t deliverable and when I ask you to back it up with explanations, you flip it over and ask us to state the promises made - remarkable stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How can a post Brexit UK be in a separate regulatory and customs environment, and at the same time have no enforcement mechanisms in place to protect its own internal market?
This remains the fundamental unanswered question since the result.
"Maximum Facilitation, Border 2.0, Malthouse Compromise, Alternative Arrangements etc etc" have all been proven abject failures, and no amount of creative innovation/thinking can square this circle.
Which anyone with an understanding of trade policy (not named Singham) has stated time and time again.
As the UK will pretty much be in some sort of association arrangement (BRINO) with the EU ad infinitum, how is the UK "taking back control of its money, borders and laws" which was the overriding principle message from VL, which millions of people thought they were voting for?
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 18 minutes ago
If leavers are so sure of their decision being the right one, then test it. You should win again.
———
But Leave won. Why would they want another vote just to be sure? Your logic is warped.
Project Fear was so ghastly. All the scare stories have proven to be guff.
Economy grew
Jobs went up
Unemployment went down
Manufacturing output up
Inward investment up
In the meantime, Euro crisis deepening, mass unemployment, EU army being pushed
Etc etc
----------------------------------------------------------------------
UK manufacturing grew as firms stockpiled goods, (for a potential no deal) but sector now in a recession.
The global economy is slowing and it looks like the uncertainty surrounding Brexit would have led to a recession anyway. Brexit will only make this inevitable.
posted on 24/3/19
winston.
The NI issue has been ignored by most people for decades, and as a loyalist who crosses the border alot, we do not want a hard border.....nobody does.
Remain and the eu use the border to block brexit and pretend the GFA is at risk.Strsnd one of the GFA says ee require a shared government running Stormont, but SF walked out so the GFA is alresdy broken.
Strand two and three of the GFA require belfast and dublin co-operating, as well as GB and Eire, but that relationship has broken down as,well....abd dublin acts for northern natiinalists alone now.
The GFA respects the right of NI to be in the uk until voted otherwise, but the backstop separates Ulster from GB and shuns unionist rights.
So the border and backstop and GFA are often a stick to beat brexit with.
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 8 minutes ago
Unemployment being down is the biggest Tory lie since, well, Brexit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How many are unemp!oyed then?
posted on 24/3/19
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a... (U6374)
posted 14 minutes ago
Unemployment being down is the biggest Tory lie since, well, Brexit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The ONS consider people on 0 hour contracts and working one hour a week is employment.
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Martial FC (U11781)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a... (U6374)
posted 14 minutes ago
Unemployment being down is the biggest Tory lie since, well, Brexit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The ONS consider people on 0 hour contracts and working one hour a week is employment.
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Laughable isn't it.
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 4 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 1 hour, 52 minutes ago
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 2 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 6 hours, 7 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinion is entirely based on conjecture.
As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible.
If you believe it is actually possible but the way the process has been managed has prevented that from happening then I suggest you don’t know what you’re talking about. We now know the extent of the issue in NI and we know that the leave campaign were wrong.
I don’t really care what you voted for. I’m telling you, for a fact, that a lot of people did vote for something that they can’t havs. The leave campaign was not for a no deal. I can show you quotes to prove that.
So the situation remains - it is entirely democratic to consider asking people, now they are in possession of facts rather than hypothetical posturing, do they still want to move forward.
Just because a certain element of idiots are happy with a no deal scenario does not mean that the country would be happy to vote for it so we need to be sure because it’s absolutely not whet was voted for in the referendum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post Winston.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Except it wasn’t because Winston said...
‘As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible’
But didn’t back this up with any credible explanation.
Some people are convinced self governance is impossible - its rather extraordinary.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you for real?
You really need us to lay out all the things that Brexiteers told us during the leave campaign that have turned out to be a big steaming pile of sheite?
If you seriously need that to be done then you’re probably beyond help in a debate like this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you make the claim that things weren’t deliverable and when I ask you to back it up with explanations, you flip it over and ask us to state the promises made - remarkable stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liam Fox saying a free trade deal with the EU will be the easiest trade deal in human history.
Try that one for starters Metro.
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Redinthehead - FreeGaza - فلسطين (U1860)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 4 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 1 hour, 52 minutes ago
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 2 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 6 hours, 7 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinion is entirely based on conjecture.
As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible.
If you believe it is actually possible but the way the process has been managed has prevented that from happening then I suggest you don’t know what you’re talking about. We now know the extent of the issue in NI and we know that the leave campaign were wrong.
I don’t really care what you voted for. I’m telling you, for a fact, that a lot of people did vote for something that they can’t havs. The leave campaign was not for a no deal. I can show you quotes to prove that.
So the situation remains - it is entirely democratic to consider asking people, now they are in possession of facts rather than hypothetical posturing, do they still want to move forward.
Just because a certain element of idiots are happy with a no deal scenario does not mean that the country would be happy to vote for it so we need to be sure because it’s absolutely not whet was voted for in the referendum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post Winston.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Except it wasn’t because Winston said...
‘As things stand, it’s been proven that what was promised/stated could be achieved, is not possible’
But didn’t back this up with any credible explanation.
Some people are convinced self governance is impossible - its rather extraordinary.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you for real?
You really need us to lay out all the things that Brexiteers told us during the leave campaign that have turned out to be a big steaming pile of sheite?
If you seriously need that to be done then you’re probably beyond help in a debate like this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you make the claim that things weren’t deliverable and when I ask you to back it up with explanations, you flip it over and ask us to state the promises made - remarkable stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liam Fox saying a free trade deal with the EU will be the easiest trade deal in human history.
Try that one for starters Metro.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Already been answered. You missed it.
Don’t confuse the ease of agreeing a deal with people’s reluctance to broker it.
posted on 24/3/19
Oh fvck off. It was pure arrogance coupled with naivety.
posted on 24/3/19
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 hours, 34 minutes ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
Metro, it’s one of many examples of false promises - some more serious than others. Northern Ireland probably being the most serious.
If you’re actually going to argue that everyone knew what they were voting for and no one was misled then I’ll leave you to it as you’re clearly deluded.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m starting to repeat myself. Promises and statements that were ill-thought were made on both sides. That does not render the vote void.
Many of the claims can be achieved in years to come.
I never claimed that everyone knew what they were voting for. I stated that there is no ambiguity in leaving the European Union. Don’t confuse it with the deal being brokered.
I’m still awaiting your explanation from before.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well maybe you can take up your issues with the people who did vote to leave and now would vote remain, stating that they’ve been misled.
There are plenty of them.
It was a campaign run on hypotheticals and a lot of those have already turned out to be nonsense, not to mention the complete lack of credible response to the NI issue, which people now readily accept as a big problem.
No one claimed it voids the vote. What people are saying is that it’s not illogical to ask people whether to agreement in place, or indeed no deal, is what they want or if, now they know the facts, whether actually they’d prefer to sack the whole thing off.
Perfectly credible question.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t need to take up any issues. You’re the one who claimed that undeliverable promises were made. It is therefore up to you to back them with reason.
Of course it was a campaign run on hypotheticals. For example, the EU are pushing for Turkeys ascension into the Eu. Or, the EU want their own army.
Whilst both may not come to full fruition, it would’ve been bonkers not to warn the public of their intent.
Project Fear however didn’t do this. It intentionally tried to scare voters into backing remain with things like punishment budgets and costs per household - or how about the recession on a vote to leave. That was a despicable campaign.
It is illogical to ask people again because it justifies the EU to persist with this poor offer. This has been argued from the start. Give them the worst deal in history and they’ll reject it. You’d think Remain had won the referendum.
Lets all look back at the Treasury’s infamous warning that GDP would likely fall by 6% per cent and that unemployment would soar by up to 800,000 in the first two years after a vote to leave. This is going to be studied by generations of economists as an example of the most incredible incompetent and disingenuous forecasting 21st Century politics has ever seen.
It is the economic equivalent of the Iraq dossier, something that will damage government forecasting credibility for years to come - and rightly so.
As for people now knowing the facts - lets go through them....
Jobs - up (Remain Wrong)
Unemployment- down (Remain Wrong)
Manufacturing output - up (Remain Wrong)
Foreign investment- up (Remain Wrong)
Economy - grew (Remain Wrong)
Just what facts are you referring to exactly?
posted on 24/3/19
I've worked in employment for years and I don't believe those figures at all. Those employed are part of the working poor more often than not and we're not far off Victorian times for poverty.
Trying to spin that we're in a good state is sickening and straight out of the daily mail.
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