The point isn't that underachieving managers of any race should be immune from the sack. The point is that there are structural / cultural issues that limit the number of talented black people from rising through those systems in which the cadre of top managers emerge.
Plenty of white managers fail but just seem to ride the management Merry-go round
Bruce
Pardew
Pulis
Hodgson
Hughes
Warnock
To name a few
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
The point isn't that underachieving managers of any race should be immune from the sack. The point is that there are structural / cultural issues that limit the number of talented black people from rising through those systems in which the cadre of top managers emerge.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nail on the head
OP - with respect, you need to stop thinking about this as blatant racism and start thinking about the subtleties of the issue.
I don't think anyone is saying that a club would sack someone just because they're black.
Isn't the issue more how ex white players get Championship and PL gigs while the ex black players have to go down to the bottom of the pyramid for there first job.
Speaking of BLM, I remember standing in away terraces at places like Watford in the 80s and hearing hundreds of my fellow United supporters making monkey noises when players like John Barnes and Luther Blissett got the ball. (Thankfully, I had my dad next to me to tell me this was disgusting behaviour.) We've come a long way since then, or at least so I thought. But to imagine that in a generation you can shift from overt, widespread, unapologetic racism in the sport to not having a trace of unconscious bias that might hold back aspiring black leaders (or hold back aspirations to lead) is a blind spot that many of us suffer from.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 50 seconds ago
Speaking of BLM, I remember standing in away terraces at places like Watford in the 80s and hearing hundreds of my fellow United supporters making monkey noises when players like John Barnes and Luther Blissett got the ball. (Thankfully, I had my dad next to me to tell me this was disgusting behaviour.) We've come a long way since then, or at least so I thought. But to imagine that in a generation you can shift from overt, widespread, unapologetic racism in the sport to not having a trace of unconscious bias that might hold back aspiring black leaders (or hold back aspirations to lead) is a blind spot that many of us suffer from.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with both of your posts - absolute nail on the head.
I remember as a child being at Wembley and people around us were giving John Barnes absolute dogs abuse.
I don't recall actual racist words but it was clear he was being singled out.
Makes me so sad to think of what those players went through.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 50 seconds ago
Speaking of BLM, I remember standing in away terraces at places like Watford in the 80s and hearing hundreds of my fellow United supporters making monkey noises when players like John Barnes and Luther Blissett got the ball. (Thankfully, I had my dad next to me to tell me this was disgusting behaviour.) We've come a long way since then, or at least so I thought. But to imagine that in a generation you can shift from overt, widespread, unapologetic racism in the sport to not having a trace of unconscious bias that might hold back aspiring black leaders (or hold back aspirations to lead) is a blind spot that many of us suffer from.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with both of your posts - absolute nail on the head.
I remember as a child being at Wembley and people around us were giving John Barnes absolute dogs abuse.
I don't recall actual racist words but it was clear he was being singled out.
Makes me so sad to think of what those players went through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
things have changed massively since then though... thankfully,
you will always get a very very small minority who still think its acceptable.. however the big positive is that those around them in the grounds will not stand for it
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 24 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 50 seconds ago
Speaking of BLM, I remember standing in away terraces at places like Watford in the 80s and hearing hundreds of my fellow United supporters making monkey noises when players like John Barnes and Luther Blissett got the ball. (Thankfully, I had my dad next to me to tell me this was disgusting behaviour.) We've come a long way since then, or at least so I thought. But to imagine that in a generation you can shift from overt, widespread, unapologetic racism in the sport to not having a trace of unconscious bias that might hold back aspiring black leaders (or hold back aspirations to lead) is a blind spot that many of us suffer from.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with both of your posts - absolute nail on the head.
I remember as a child being at Wembley and people around us were giving John Barnes absolute dogs abuse.
I don't recall actual racist words but it was clear he was being singled out.
Makes me so sad to think of what those players went through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The frustrating thing is that we’ve seen in recent years it’s creeping its way back into the game. That, with Brexit lurking around the corner could very well point to a resurgence in a lot of what some people in this country still seem to feel but have just gotten better at hiding it.
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
You think all of those thousands of people have just switched their mindset and see black people as their equals now?
This will take many generations to fix properly, but defined actions will help to accelerate change.
Plenty more white managers have failed as miserably as much as the black managers in the OPs list. Yet they are not known as failed 'white' managers.
It is dangerous to conclude that Chairman and owners are justified in not employing black managers just because the ones we have seen have a go have failed to make the grade.
Its a numbers game. If as many black managers were appointed as white managers, just as many of them would be as successful as the white ones. Which isn't many.
We accept white failure, but highlight black failure
As has been mentioned there is a merry ground of failed white managers who seem to be considered every time a job comes along. I am sure any black manager could do no worse than them.
You only have to look at the widespread social media reaction to the BLM movement in this country over the past week or so to see what lurks beneath the surface of a wide swath of the population.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 35 seconds ago
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
You think all of those thousands of people have just switched their mindset and see black people as their equals now?
This will take many generations to fix properly, but defined actions will help to accelerate change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
at what point have i said that??
but there has been a massive improvement in the stands from 30 years ago where racial abuse was rife
On a separate note, not far from my sister in law's place yesterday, there was a small BLM protest.
A group of about 100 Spurs fans gathered to 'protect' the town's war memorial.
They proceeded to launch verbal attacks at the peaceful protest and some of language used was vile. 'Go back to Africa' was shouted at a crowd with kids in it.
Racism is still there - in big numbers - and if you believe otherwise, I'm afraid you need to do some research.
Sadly, 'leaders' like Johnson and Farage, as well as Trump, help to give those people a platform to speak from - whereas society has done a relatively decent job of pushing those views to its fringes.
comment by RB&W "PPE for NHS heroes" (U21434)
posted 1 minute ago
Plenty more white managers have failed as miserably as much as the black managers in the OPs list. Yet they are not known as failed 'white' managers.
It is dangerous to conclude that Chairman and owners are justified in not employing black managers just because the ones we have seen have a go have failed to make the grade.
Its a numbers game. If as many black managers were appointed as white managers, just as many of them would be as successful as the white ones. Which isn't many.
We accept white failure, but highlight black failure
As has been mentioned there is a merry ground of failed white managers who seem to be considered every time a job comes along. I am sure any black manager could do no worse than them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
👏
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 35 seconds ago
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
You think all of those thousands of people have just switched their mindset and see black people as their equals now?
This will take many generations to fix properly, but defined actions will help to accelerate change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
at what point have i said that??
but there has been a massive improvement in the stands from 30 years ago where racial abuse was rife
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say you had - hence the question mark.
You called it a very very small minority - I think you're wrong about that.
comment by Geoff Tipps (U1449)
posted 12 minutes ago
Plenty of white managers fail but just seem to ride the management Merry-go round
Bruce
Pardew
Pulis
Hodgson
Hughes
Warnock
To name a few
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There will always be that manager merry-go round though. Most of them have earned the chance to manage in the Premier League through promotions or years as an assistant. You could probably add Chris Hughton to that list who is BAME.
I think the issues are more about whether BAME managers are being offered the opportunities at Championship or League One level. It is very rare for a manager to go straight into the Premier League with no prior experience and usually only happens if they are a club legend who is has become synonymous with the club i.e. Shearer, Giggs.
I don't believe any Premier League club would avoid hiring a black manager if they were the best person for the job. I think they need to look to get more ex-black players in the game though, so they can have more opportunity to be in that position.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 35 seconds ago
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
You think all of those thousands of people have just switched their mindset and see black people as their equals now?
This will take many generations to fix properly, but defined actions will help to accelerate change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
at what point have i said that??
but there has been a massive improvement in the stands from 30 years ago where racial abuse was rife
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say you had - hence the question mark.
You called it a very very small minority - I think you're wrong about that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i'll be honest Winston i havent heard racial abuse in the stands now for quite a few years, whereas when i first started going it was heard throughout the entire match.
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
Absolutely - and it's become socially unacceptable, which is great.
But don't for a minute think that means it has reduced massively amongst those people... they just have to be more careful about when and how they air their views.
How many thugs on the terraces from the 80s were capable of learning and changing their minds? Not many, I'd wager.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 12 seconds ago
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
Absolutely - and it's become socially unacceptable, which is great.
But don't for a minute think that means it has reduced massively amongst those people... they just have to be more careful about when and how they air their views.
How many thugs on the terraces from the 80s were capable of learning and changing their minds? Not many, I'd wager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
probably not, however we are talking 30 years or so since the days of Barnes and Blissett.
There is a new generation of fans attending games now, possibly even 2 new generations who have been educated much more than the previous ones
while i dont think its totally gone there has been definate improvements
Part of it is probably the “new fan” which has taken over the stadiums, families from the suburbs who’ve priced out the traditional irking class fan
Hughton has been treated pretty badly tbh
sacked after skooshing the championship, sacked after keeping Brighton up a few seasons
has he got a club since?
Sadly, 'leaders' like Johnson and Farage, as well as Trump, help to give those people a platform to speak from - whereas society has done a relatively decent job of pushing those views to its fringes.
This is a valid point. Appointing right wing politicians into high positions, who use race as a means of bait to accelerate their path to power, is one of the reasons why hate crime has been on the rise here and why Brexit happened as well. People don’t get encouraged to become more racist unless it comes from the top.
comment by Geoff Tipps (U1449)
posted 0 seconds ago
Part of it is probably the “new fan” which has taken over the stadiums, families from the suburbs who’ve priced out the traditional irking class fan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Working class fan
Awful and ignorant article.
Sign in if you want to comment
Black managers
Page 1 of 13
6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10
posted on 9/6/20
The point isn't that underachieving managers of any race should be immune from the sack. The point is that there are structural / cultural issues that limit the number of talented black people from rising through those systems in which the cadre of top managers emerge.
posted on 9/6/20
Plenty of white managers fail but just seem to ride the management Merry-go round
Bruce
Pardew
Pulis
Hodgson
Hughes
Warnock
To name a few
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
The point isn't that underachieving managers of any race should be immune from the sack. The point is that there are structural / cultural issues that limit the number of talented black people from rising through those systems in which the cadre of top managers emerge.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nail on the head
posted on 9/6/20
OP - with respect, you need to stop thinking about this as blatant racism and start thinking about the subtleties of the issue.
I don't think anyone is saying that a club would sack someone just because they're black.
posted on 9/6/20
Isn't the issue more how ex white players get Championship and PL gigs while the ex black players have to go down to the bottom of the pyramid for there first job.
posted on 9/6/20
Speaking of BLM, I remember standing in away terraces at places like Watford in the 80s and hearing hundreds of my fellow United supporters making monkey noises when players like John Barnes and Luther Blissett got the ball. (Thankfully, I had my dad next to me to tell me this was disgusting behaviour.) We've come a long way since then, or at least so I thought. But to imagine that in a generation you can shift from overt, widespread, unapologetic racism in the sport to not having a trace of unconscious bias that might hold back aspiring black leaders (or hold back aspirations to lead) is a blind spot that many of us suffer from.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 50 seconds ago
Speaking of BLM, I remember standing in away terraces at places like Watford in the 80s and hearing hundreds of my fellow United supporters making monkey noises when players like John Barnes and Luther Blissett got the ball. (Thankfully, I had my dad next to me to tell me this was disgusting behaviour.) We've come a long way since then, or at least so I thought. But to imagine that in a generation you can shift from overt, widespread, unapologetic racism in the sport to not having a trace of unconscious bias that might hold back aspiring black leaders (or hold back aspirations to lead) is a blind spot that many of us suffer from.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with both of your posts - absolute nail on the head.
I remember as a child being at Wembley and people around us were giving John Barnes absolute dogs abuse.
I don't recall actual racist words but it was clear he was being singled out.
Makes me so sad to think of what those players went through.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 50 seconds ago
Speaking of BLM, I remember standing in away terraces at places like Watford in the 80s and hearing hundreds of my fellow United supporters making monkey noises when players like John Barnes and Luther Blissett got the ball. (Thankfully, I had my dad next to me to tell me this was disgusting behaviour.) We've come a long way since then, or at least so I thought. But to imagine that in a generation you can shift from overt, widespread, unapologetic racism in the sport to not having a trace of unconscious bias that might hold back aspiring black leaders (or hold back aspirations to lead) is a blind spot that many of us suffer from.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with both of your posts - absolute nail on the head.
I remember as a child being at Wembley and people around us were giving John Barnes absolute dogs abuse.
I don't recall actual racist words but it was clear he was being singled out.
Makes me so sad to think of what those players went through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
things have changed massively since then though... thankfully,
you will always get a very very small minority who still think its acceptable.. however the big positive is that those around them in the grounds will not stand for it
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 24 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 50 seconds ago
Speaking of BLM, I remember standing in away terraces at places like Watford in the 80s and hearing hundreds of my fellow United supporters making monkey noises when players like John Barnes and Luther Blissett got the ball. (Thankfully, I had my dad next to me to tell me this was disgusting behaviour.) We've come a long way since then, or at least so I thought. But to imagine that in a generation you can shift from overt, widespread, unapologetic racism in the sport to not having a trace of unconscious bias that might hold back aspiring black leaders (or hold back aspirations to lead) is a blind spot that many of us suffer from.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with both of your posts - absolute nail on the head.
I remember as a child being at Wembley and people around us were giving John Barnes absolute dogs abuse.
I don't recall actual racist words but it was clear he was being singled out.
Makes me so sad to think of what those players went through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The frustrating thing is that we’ve seen in recent years it’s creeping its way back into the game. That, with Brexit lurking around the corner could very well point to a resurgence in a lot of what some people in this country still seem to feel but have just gotten better at hiding it.
posted on 9/6/20
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
You think all of those thousands of people have just switched their mindset and see black people as their equals now?
This will take many generations to fix properly, but defined actions will help to accelerate change.
posted on 9/6/20
Plenty more white managers have failed as miserably as much as the black managers in the OPs list. Yet they are not known as failed 'white' managers.
It is dangerous to conclude that Chairman and owners are justified in not employing black managers just because the ones we have seen have a go have failed to make the grade.
Its a numbers game. If as many black managers were appointed as white managers, just as many of them would be as successful as the white ones. Which isn't many.
We accept white failure, but highlight black failure
As has been mentioned there is a merry ground of failed white managers who seem to be considered every time a job comes along. I am sure any black manager could do no worse than them.
posted on 9/6/20
You only have to look at the widespread social media reaction to the BLM movement in this country over the past week or so to see what lurks beneath the surface of a wide swath of the population.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 35 seconds ago
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
You think all of those thousands of people have just switched their mindset and see black people as their equals now?
This will take many generations to fix properly, but defined actions will help to accelerate change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
at what point have i said that??
but there has been a massive improvement in the stands from 30 years ago where racial abuse was rife
posted on 9/6/20
On a separate note, not far from my sister in law's place yesterday, there was a small BLM protest.
A group of about 100 Spurs fans gathered to 'protect' the town's war memorial.
They proceeded to launch verbal attacks at the peaceful protest and some of language used was vile. 'Go back to Africa' was shouted at a crowd with kids in it.
Racism is still there - in big numbers - and if you believe otherwise, I'm afraid you need to do some research.
Sadly, 'leaders' like Johnson and Farage, as well as Trump, help to give those people a platform to speak from - whereas society has done a relatively decent job of pushing those views to its fringes.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by RB&W "PPE for NHS heroes" (U21434)
posted 1 minute ago
Plenty more white managers have failed as miserably as much as the black managers in the OPs list. Yet they are not known as failed 'white' managers.
It is dangerous to conclude that Chairman and owners are justified in not employing black managers just because the ones we have seen have a go have failed to make the grade.
Its a numbers game. If as many black managers were appointed as white managers, just as many of them would be as successful as the white ones. Which isn't many.
We accept white failure, but highlight black failure
As has been mentioned there is a merry ground of failed white managers who seem to be considered every time a job comes along. I am sure any black manager could do no worse than them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
👏
posted on 9/6/20
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 35 seconds ago
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
You think all of those thousands of people have just switched their mindset and see black people as their equals now?
This will take many generations to fix properly, but defined actions will help to accelerate change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
at what point have i said that??
but there has been a massive improvement in the stands from 30 years ago where racial abuse was rife
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say you had - hence the question mark.
You called it a very very small minority - I think you're wrong about that.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Geoff Tipps (U1449)
posted 12 minutes ago
Plenty of white managers fail but just seem to ride the management Merry-go round
Bruce
Pardew
Pulis
Hodgson
Hughes
Warnock
To name a few
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There will always be that manager merry-go round though. Most of them have earned the chance to manage in the Premier League through promotions or years as an assistant. You could probably add Chris Hughton to that list who is BAME.
I think the issues are more about whether BAME managers are being offered the opportunities at Championship or League One level. It is very rare for a manager to go straight into the Premier League with no prior experience and usually only happens if they are a club legend who is has become synonymous with the club i.e. Shearer, Giggs.
I don't believe any Premier League club would avoid hiring a black manager if they were the best person for the job. I think they need to look to get more ex-black players in the game though, so they can have more opportunity to be in that position.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 35 seconds ago
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
You think all of those thousands of people have just switched their mindset and see black people as their equals now?
This will take many generations to fix properly, but defined actions will help to accelerate change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
at what point have i said that??
but there has been a massive improvement in the stands from 30 years ago where racial abuse was rife
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say you had - hence the question mark.
You called it a very very small minority - I think you're wrong about that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i'll be honest Winston i havent heard racial abuse in the stands now for quite a few years, whereas when i first started going it was heard throughout the entire match.
posted on 9/6/20
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
Absolutely - and it's become socially unacceptable, which is great.
But don't for a minute think that means it has reduced massively amongst those people... they just have to be more careful about when and how they air their views.
How many thugs on the terraces from the 80s were capable of learning and changing their minds? Not many, I'd wager.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 12 seconds ago
dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
Absolutely - and it's become socially unacceptable, which is great.
But don't for a minute think that means it has reduced massively amongst those people... they just have to be more careful about when and how they air their views.
How many thugs on the terraces from the 80s were capable of learning and changing their minds? Not many, I'd wager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
probably not, however we are talking 30 years or so since the days of Barnes and Blissett.
There is a new generation of fans attending games now, possibly even 2 new generations who have been educated much more than the previous ones
while i dont think its totally gone there has been definate improvements
posted on 9/6/20
Part of it is probably the “new fan” which has taken over the stadiums, families from the suburbs who’ve priced out the traditional irking class fan
posted on 9/6/20
Hughton has been treated pretty badly tbh
sacked after skooshing the championship, sacked after keeping Brighton up a few seasons
has he got a club since?
posted on 9/6/20
Sadly, 'leaders' like Johnson and Farage, as well as Trump, help to give those people a platform to speak from - whereas society has done a relatively decent job of pushing those views to its fringes.
This is a valid point. Appointing right wing politicians into high positions, who use race as a means of bait to accelerate their path to power, is one of the reasons why hate crime has been on the rise here and why Brexit happened as well. People don’t get encouraged to become more racist unless it comes from the top.
posted on 9/6/20
comment by Geoff Tipps (U1449)
posted 0 seconds ago
Part of it is probably the “new fan” which has taken over the stadiums, families from the suburbs who’ve priced out the traditional irking class fan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Working class fan
posted on 9/6/20
Awful and ignorant article.
Page 1 of 13
6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10