Doubt anyone thinks we are on the up
Tomi against Zaha should be interesting
comment by Invisible Auba (U18355)
posted less than a minute ago
Apart from GT probably
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am optimistic yes.
We improved recently. Results were better. It goes in the right direction.
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 50 seconds ago
Lads lads lads. We have decent players but a shocking coach. A point was a decent result. Carry on our momentum plus put a stopper to all that dogshiete about Arteta being the new wenger.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Didn't you feel the Spurs game was a turning point? I did and then how can you explain what we saw today. Can you understand why I am furious?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope, only a mug would see anything but a blip (sorry J99).
This team is excellent when set in an attacking mode. It lacks creativity when the setup is negative, which is Arteta's natural game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you think we are still on the up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn't sure which game was the 'blip' you were referring to. Brighton or Spurs?
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted about a minute ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is that when you talk down about players like Auba and Ode and others its easy to forget that world class players can be made to look shhite in a poor system and good players look great with a good manager.
We shouldn't lower our expectations and fall into the trap created by those peddling bull to keep themselves in a job.
Arsenal spent the most money last season. We deserve to see better. And we should be benchmarking ourselves with the best clubs in England because although some would prefer we forget, that Arsenal are still the 3rd/4th highest supported club in England.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a fair point, but I don't go slanging Ode & Auba every week. You could see after the first 5 minutes that Auba wasn't the right guy to play down the middle (in this game). Couldn't keep hold of the ball and his first touch was a pass back to Brighton. He's 6 foot 2(1) but is probably the weakest CF I've seen at the club.
When your centre forward is incapable of retaining the ball, your midfield gets dragged out of position, your defence drops deep and nobody can get up the pitch because every attempt to retain the ball lasts for 5 or 6 seconds at a time. We saw this for the whole of last season and I don't understand how people are surprised today.
We're better off modeling our style on Tuchel & Chelsea over Klopp/Pep imo. Arteta can be a success if he finds either a CF who can play with his back to goal and be physical in the box (Lukaku) or one that can constantly offer the channel ball (Werner) and hold up play from out wide.
Not wanting to be like City/Liverpool doesn't mean we've accepted mediocrity at the club. I just don't see us having the players to match that identity. We certainly don't have the manager.
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 50 seconds ago
Lads lads lads. We have decent players but a shocking coach. A point was a decent result. Carry on our momentum plus put a stopper to all that dogshiete about Arteta being the new wenger.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Didn't you feel the Spurs game was a turning point? I did and then how can you explain what we saw today. Can you understand why I am furious?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope, only a mug would see anything but a blip (sorry J99).
This team is excellent when set in an attacking mode. It lacks creativity when the setup is negative, which is Arteta's natural game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you think we are still on the up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn't sure which game was the 'blip' you were referring to. Brighton or Spurs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The spurs game was a blip for Arteta. The way the team attacked, pressed from the front foot, created numerous chances was totally against Arteta's nature.
TBh, I'm surprised you were sucked into the hype. It was only a matter of time before Arteta would revert back to type. He's a horrible, negative, clueless manager.
But this team has a decent foundation. Just needs the right man to fulfil its potential
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 38 seconds ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 50 seconds ago
Lads lads lads. We have decent players but a shocking coach. A point was a decent result. Carry on our momentum plus put a stopper to all that dogshiete about Arteta being the new wenger.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Didn't you feel the Spurs game was a turning point? I did and then how can you explain what we saw today. Can you understand why I am furious?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope, only a mug would see anything but a blip (sorry J99).
This team is excellent when set in an attacking mode. It lacks creativity when the setup is negative, which is Arteta's natural game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you think we are still on the up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn't sure which game was the 'blip' you were referring to. Brighton or Spurs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The spurs game was a blip for Arteta. The way the team attacked, pressed from the front foot, created numerous chances was totally against Arteta's nature.
TBh, I'm surprised you were sucked into the hype. It was only a matter of time before Arteta would revert back to type. He's a horrible, negative, clueless manager.
But this team has a decent foundation. Just needs the right man to fulfil its potential
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh ok. I was a little confused. by your comment.
I am trying very hard to give Arteta the benefit of the doubt. Although I did point out the second half when Arteta sat back against Spurs as well necessarily drawing them back into the match rather than keeping possession.
comment by RonAlvinho (U6117)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted about a minute ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is that when you talk down about players like Auba and Ode and others its easy to forget that world class players can be made to look shhite in a poor system and good players look great with a good manager.
We shouldn't lower our expectations and fall into the trap created by those peddling bull to keep themselves in a job.
Arsenal spent the most money last season. We deserve to see better. And we should be benchmarking ourselves with the best clubs in England because although some would prefer we forget, that Arsenal are still the 3rd/4th highest supported club in England.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a fair point, but I don't go slanging Ode & Auba every week. You could see after the first 5 minutes that Auba wasn't the right guy to play down the middle (in this game). Couldn't keep hold of the ball and his first touch was a pass back to Brighton. He's 6 foot 2(1) but is probably the weakest CF I've seen at the club.
When your centre forward is incapable of retaining the ball, your midfield gets dragged out of position, your defence drops deep and nobody can get up the pitch because every attempt to retain the ball lasts for 5 or 6 seconds at a time. We saw this for the whole of last season and I don't understand how people are surprised today.
We're better off modeling our style on Tuchel & Chelsea over Klopp/Pep imo. Arteta can be a success if he finds either a CF who can play with his back to goal and be physical in the box (Lukaku) or one that can constantly offer the channel ball (Werner) and hold up play from out wide.
Not wanting to be like City/Liverpool doesn't mean we've accepted mediocrity at the club. I just don't see us having the players to match that identity. We certainly don't have the manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chelsea don't use Lukaku till they get into the opposing half. Its a bit of a misnomer that Chelsea play the ball up to Lukaku to help them bring the ball out. They are still a possession based team like all the top teams tbh. Its the only way to control the game. How many times can you see out games like we did today? Which is why possession stats are so important.
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 1 minute ago
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chelsea don't use Lukaku till they get into the opposing half.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not getting it.
Take Lukaku or Werner out of Chelsea & put Auba in. Suddenly they play much deeper in games like today. We saw this when Costa left and they were stuck with Morata. As soon as they realised Morata wasn't taking them where they needed to go, they brought in Giroud. We're far closer to them at that moment than we are City/Liverpool.
Besides, CB's don't go toe-to-toe with Lukaku on the half way line because it's suicide.
comment by RonAlvinho (U6117)
posted 1 hour, 46 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 1 minute ago
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chelsea don't use Lukaku till they get into the opposing half.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not getting it.
Take Lukaku or Werner out of Chelsea & put Auba in. Suddenly they play much deeper in games like today. We saw this when Costa left and they were stuck with Morata. As soon as they realised Morata wasn't taking them where they needed to go, they brought in Giroud. We're far closer to them at that moment than we are City/Liverpool.
Besides, CB's don't go toe-to-toe with Lukaku on the half way line because it's suicide.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lukaku is not used as an out ball because Chelsea don't sit deep unless its against a high press team like Liverpool or City. And even then they try to hold a high line and break through the midfield. Not using long balls to Lukaku. Chelsea also possess the ball using Jorginho and build play from the back but at a much higher tempo because their CBs push up. As a result the space between their players is much smaller than ours. That way the tempo of their passing is much higher. (passing a small distance increases completion rates and makes it much more difficult to intercept).
That way when Lukaku first gets involved in play Chelsea are already in the attacking third of the opposition. Whereas our CBs sit very deep. As a result when Auba gets involved he is nearer the half way line. Its much easier for opposing CBs to press your striker when he is at the half way line because any foul they may give away is distant from their own goal and refs are not going to book a foul in middle of the pitch. When Lukaku touches the ball in the final third of the opposition, oppo CBs are far more careful not to foul. Any foul in the final third can lead to a free kick into the penalty area.
I believe the reason why we spent £140m+ on our defence was so that we could also do that. Push up from our CBs as a team and play out through our midfield. But Arteta refuses to do that and its infuriating.
"Chelsea don't sit deep unless its against a high press team like Liverpool or City."
_
Brighton are a high pressing team. One of the best in the league right now.
"Not using long balls to Lukaku. "
--
Yes they do
"As a result the space between their players is much smaller than ours."
--
Not too different to us in the games that we control.
"That way when Lukaku first gets involved in play Chelsea are already in the attacking third of the opposition."
--
Insanely incorrect.
"When Lukaku touches the ball in the final third of the opposition"
--
Obviously, but you clearly overlook the amount of times Lukaku (and Werner) ride challenges out wide in the opposition third.
"I believe the reason why we spent £140m+ on our defence was so that we could also do that. Push up from our CBs as a team and play out through our midfield. But Arteta refuses to do that and its infuriating."
--
I believe we absolutely will play that way if Arteta can pluck up the courage to replace Aubameyang. Otherwise we will always struggle against the high pressing teams regardless of his tactics.
"That way when Lukaku first gets involved in play Chelsea are already in the attacking third of the opposition."
--
Insanely incorrect.
------------------------------------------------
We'll disagree on that. Just watch the highlights against Southampton.
Chelsea are not a long ball team. And only a long ball team will target their striker when they are in their own half.
Just think about that for a second. Pulis, fat Sam, old Moyes etc. basic tactics are just that. Clear it to the big man up front and then build off the knock downs. John Fashanu at his best.
This is why those clubs want strikers like Peter Crouch, tall and physically imposing.
Chelsea build through their midfield. This is why Jorginho is such a important player for them.
I really don't want to go down a rabbit hole of just slagging Auba off either. He's clearly been an excellent striker and has scored a lot of goals for us.
He simply is not the right striker for A) how we play right now and B) how fans want us to play going forward. The effect this has on the team is hugely understated by fans who think instead that Arteta gathers everyone round to tell them "sit deep, don't press" . It's laughable.
We have to get away from thinking that we can only replace Auba with an elite level striker. Signing a "decent" striker that suits our game would take us up so many levels and close the gap to the top 4 - again, Chelsea did this with Giroud.
Leicester are a great example of this. West Ham too and now Brighton. Teams that you'll only ever want 1 or 2 of their players but as a unit they're growing because they sign players based on attributes and not status. All the buzz is that this is what we're doing now (Ramsdale), but with Auba as Captain I can't see the club taking that next key step (more important than replacing Xhaka imo).
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 6 minutes ago
Chelsea are not a long ball team. And only a long ball team will target their striker when they are in their own half.
Just think about that for a second. Pulis, fat Sam, old Moyes etc. basic tactics are just that. Clear it to the big man up front and then build off the knock downs. John Fashanu at his best.
This is why those clubs want strikers like Peter Crouch, tall and physically imposing.
Chelsea build through their midfield. This is why Jorginho is such a important player for them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Such a prehistoric way of looking at football.
All the top teams, even Liverpool that you love so much have attackers that can hold up play as an out ball. We simply do not have this and it causes the whole team to regress.
Lukaku wasn't my only example yet you focus on this because it's easy to fit him into the bigman, hoofball, Tony pulis argument. Tony Pulis would never push a Werner like I have who does a similar job but in a different fashion.
Mane for Liverpool isn't an outball purely for his place. He's an exceptionally athletic player who can shield the ball and allow his team mates to get up the pitch. Firmino is another great example, who's technique allows Liverpool to build attacks off him. You can't play the way you want us to play with the forwards we have - Saka and ESR have the attributes but they can not carry out CF/AM week in, week out.
I am not sure why you think it will all suddenly fall into place if we have a different striker.
Essentially if you want the striker to be involved in play while our CBs are camped at the edge of our own box you are suggesting we should bypass the midfield. That is essentially long ball tactics.
And I am not sure why you think fans would tolerate that.
Chelsea bought Giroud as a backup. Most of the time he was used as a sub when teams were camped in their own half (parking the bus) and he became a presence in the penalty area to build combinations rather than usual crossing tactics. In fact thats how Wenger used him. We never used to launch balls at him because we couldn't get out of our own area. In fact one the issues we used to have with Mertesacker as CB was that as we pushed up as a team, he was very vulnerable to being turned and counter attacked. But Wenger never stopped doing that.
And thats what I am discussing here. Why can't we move up the pitch under a high press from the opposition. You blaming Auba or in fact any striker for that just doesn't make sense.
Have you ever played in a game of football where your striker can't keep hold of the ball? Have a think about how this made your Midfield & Defence play.
We are not discussing playing on the Hackney marshes.
If you want us to play like all the top teams we have to possess the ball as the first mantra.
Possession is key and then moving up the pitch as a team.
Just look at our possession stats. We used to lose games under Wenger to Palace, and other teams. But we still out possessed them. We can't even win the possession game at home these days. Spurs out possessed us even when we were winning 3-0.
In other words no, you have no playing experience to draw from. It will obviously be much easier for you to just attempt to out me down about my own
Played against professionals, played against some exceptional semi professional teams and been coached by UEFA qualified coaches.
I play as a midfielder and fully understand how the team regresses when your striker and AM can not retain possession. I've experienced the whole team dropping deep on the back of this, regardless of how we were instructed to play. This is where I draw my experience from.
Defender's dropping deep is an attempt to retain possession. If your forwards can't open up passing lanes then your defence tries to other avenues to pass backwards - if your attack continues to offer nothing then your options continue to remain backwards until you are in your own third with no where to go.
Entitled to think whatever you like from here on out, I won't change your opinion. You won't change mine. A day of debate and we're still miles apart.
comment by RonAlvinho (U6117)
posted 1 minute ago
In other words no, you have no playing experience to draw from. It will obviously be much easier for you to just attempt to out me down about my own
Played against professionals, played against some exceptional semi professional teams and been coached by UEFA qualified coaches.
I play as a midfielder and fully understand how the team regresses when your striker and AM can not retain possession. I've experienced the whole team dropping deep on the back of this, regardless of how we were instructed to play. This is where I draw my experience from.
Defender's dropping deep is an attempt to retain possession. If your forwards can't open up passing lanes then your defence tries to other avenues to pass backwards - if your attack continues to offer nothing then your options continue to remain backwards until you are in your own third with no where to go.
Entitled to think whatever you like from here on out, I won't change your opinion. You won't change mine. A day of debate and we're still miles apart.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have made this point on numerous occasions. One of the reasons we struggle to control games is because of our attackers.
There is zero chemistry between an Auba and our MF. When your getting pressed like we did yesterday, Auba isnt your guy.
I am trying not to get personal here. I avoid that because we are posting in an anonymous forum and for all you know I could be Josh Kroenke or Darren Dein or Klopp or Joe down the street. Your opinions are just as valid as mine. And as we are discussing a point of view lets not get drawn into a pissiing contest.
Our problems are literally further back at the moment. Lacazette came on today and added absolutely nothing. And I promise you nothing would change if we had Isak or Lewa was playing for us.
As usual Arteta even identified the issue:
'But in the end we never felt in control of the game and we struggled to break their press and get a good sequence of passes and impose ourselves in the final third and they made it really tough for us.'
Its classic Arteta because he is absolutely correct. And it will be also classic Arteta to be able to do nothing about it because he doesn't know how to and has surrounded himself with very poor coaches that will be no help to him solve the problem.
comment by Invisible Auba (U18355)
posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago
Apart from GT probably
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Result wise we are.
Kami hasnt renewed his prediction league thread so pls. use this link.
https://www.ja606.co.uk/articles/viewArticle/438499
Adrian Clarke
@adrianjclarke
·
4 Min.
No Zaha for Palace. Very attack minded Arsenal starting XI incoming,,,
Sign in if you want to comment
Crystal Palace - Arsenal FC - Match Thread
Page 987 of 3609
988 | 989 | 990 | 991 | 992
posted on 2/10/21
Doubt anyone thinks we are on the up
posted on 2/10/21
Apart from GT probably
posted on 2/10/21
Tomi against Zaha should be interesting
posted on 2/10/21
comment by Invisible Auba (U18355)
posted less than a minute ago
Apart from GT probably
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am optimistic yes.
We improved recently. Results were better. It goes in the right direction.
posted on 2/10/21
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 50 seconds ago
Lads lads lads. We have decent players but a shocking coach. A point was a decent result. Carry on our momentum plus put a stopper to all that dogshiete about Arteta being the new wenger.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Didn't you feel the Spurs game was a turning point? I did and then how can you explain what we saw today. Can you understand why I am furious?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope, only a mug would see anything but a blip (sorry J99).
This team is excellent when set in an attacking mode. It lacks creativity when the setup is negative, which is Arteta's natural game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you think we are still on the up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn't sure which game was the 'blip' you were referring to. Brighton or Spurs?
posted on 2/10/21
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted about a minute ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is that when you talk down about players like Auba and Ode and others its easy to forget that world class players can be made to look shhite in a poor system and good players look great with a good manager.
We shouldn't lower our expectations and fall into the trap created by those peddling bull to keep themselves in a job.
Arsenal spent the most money last season. We deserve to see better. And we should be benchmarking ourselves with the best clubs in England because although some would prefer we forget, that Arsenal are still the 3rd/4th highest supported club in England.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a fair point, but I don't go slanging Ode & Auba every week. You could see after the first 5 minutes that Auba wasn't the right guy to play down the middle (in this game). Couldn't keep hold of the ball and his first touch was a pass back to Brighton. He's 6 foot 2(1) but is probably the weakest CF I've seen at the club.
When your centre forward is incapable of retaining the ball, your midfield gets dragged out of position, your defence drops deep and nobody can get up the pitch because every attempt to retain the ball lasts for 5 or 6 seconds at a time. We saw this for the whole of last season and I don't understand how people are surprised today.
We're better off modeling our style on Tuchel & Chelsea over Klopp/Pep imo. Arteta can be a success if he finds either a CF who can play with his back to goal and be physical in the box (Lukaku) or one that can constantly offer the channel ball (Werner) and hold up play from out wide.
Not wanting to be like City/Liverpool doesn't mean we've accepted mediocrity at the club. I just don't see us having the players to match that identity. We certainly don't have the manager.
posted on 2/10/21
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 50 seconds ago
Lads lads lads. We have decent players but a shocking coach. A point was a decent result. Carry on our momentum plus put a stopper to all that dogshiete about Arteta being the new wenger.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Didn't you feel the Spurs game was a turning point? I did and then how can you explain what we saw today. Can you understand why I am furious?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope, only a mug would see anything but a blip (sorry J99).
This team is excellent when set in an attacking mode. It lacks creativity when the setup is negative, which is Arteta's natural game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you think we are still on the up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn't sure which game was the 'blip' you were referring to. Brighton or Spurs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The spurs game was a blip for Arteta. The way the team attacked, pressed from the front foot, created numerous chances was totally against Arteta's nature.
TBh, I'm surprised you were sucked into the hype. It was only a matter of time before Arteta would revert back to type. He's a horrible, negative, clueless manager.
But this team has a decent foundation. Just needs the right man to fulfil its potential
posted on 2/10/21
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 38 seconds ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Serial WUManiser™© 🇵🇸🇦🇫 (U1410)
posted 50 seconds ago
Lads lads lads. We have decent players but a shocking coach. A point was a decent result. Carry on our momentum plus put a stopper to all that dogshiete about Arteta being the new wenger.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Didn't you feel the Spurs game was a turning point? I did and then how can you explain what we saw today. Can you understand why I am furious?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope, only a mug would see anything but a blip (sorry J99).
This team is excellent when set in an attacking mode. It lacks creativity when the setup is negative, which is Arteta's natural game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you think we are still on the up?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn't sure which game was the 'blip' you were referring to. Brighton or Spurs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The spurs game was a blip for Arteta. The way the team attacked, pressed from the front foot, created numerous chances was totally against Arteta's nature.
TBh, I'm surprised you were sucked into the hype. It was only a matter of time before Arteta would revert back to type. He's a horrible, negative, clueless manager.
But this team has a decent foundation. Just needs the right man to fulfil its potential
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh ok. I was a little confused. by your comment.
I am trying very hard to give Arteta the benefit of the doubt. Although I did point out the second half when Arteta sat back against Spurs as well necessarily drawing them back into the match rather than keeping possession.
posted on 2/10/21
comment by RonAlvinho (U6117)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted about a minute ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is that when you talk down about players like Auba and Ode and others its easy to forget that world class players can be made to look shhite in a poor system and good players look great with a good manager.
We shouldn't lower our expectations and fall into the trap created by those peddling bull to keep themselves in a job.
Arsenal spent the most money last season. We deserve to see better. And we should be benchmarking ourselves with the best clubs in England because although some would prefer we forget, that Arsenal are still the 3rd/4th highest supported club in England.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a fair point, but I don't go slanging Ode & Auba every week. You could see after the first 5 minutes that Auba wasn't the right guy to play down the middle (in this game). Couldn't keep hold of the ball and his first touch was a pass back to Brighton. He's 6 foot 2(1) but is probably the weakest CF I've seen at the club.
When your centre forward is incapable of retaining the ball, your midfield gets dragged out of position, your defence drops deep and nobody can get up the pitch because every attempt to retain the ball lasts for 5 or 6 seconds at a time. We saw this for the whole of last season and I don't understand how people are surprised today.
We're better off modeling our style on Tuchel & Chelsea over Klopp/Pep imo. Arteta can be a success if he finds either a CF who can play with his back to goal and be physical in the box (Lukaku) or one that can constantly offer the channel ball (Werner) and hold up play from out wide.
Not wanting to be like City/Liverpool doesn't mean we've accepted mediocrity at the club. I just don't see us having the players to match that identity. We certainly don't have the manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chelsea don't use Lukaku till they get into the opposing half. Its a bit of a misnomer that Chelsea play the ball up to Lukaku to help them bring the ball out. They are still a possession based team like all the top teams tbh. Its the only way to control the game. How many times can you see out games like we did today? Which is why possession stats are so important.
posted on 2/10/21
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 1 minute ago
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chelsea don't use Lukaku till they get into the opposing half.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not getting it.
Take Lukaku or Werner out of Chelsea & put Auba in. Suddenly they play much deeper in games like today. We saw this when Costa left and they were stuck with Morata. As soon as they realised Morata wasn't taking them where they needed to go, they brought in Giroud. We're far closer to them at that moment than we are City/Liverpool.
Besides, CB's don't go toe-to-toe with Lukaku on the half way line because it's suicide.
posted on 2/10/21
comment by RonAlvinho (U6117)
posted 1 hour, 46 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 1 minute ago
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chelsea don't use Lukaku till they get into the opposing half.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not getting it.
Take Lukaku or Werner out of Chelsea & put Auba in. Suddenly they play much deeper in games like today. We saw this when Costa left and they were stuck with Morata. As soon as they realised Morata wasn't taking them where they needed to go, they brought in Giroud. We're far closer to them at that moment than we are City/Liverpool.
Besides, CB's don't go toe-to-toe with Lukaku on the half way line because it's suicide.
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Lukaku is not used as an out ball because Chelsea don't sit deep unless its against a high press team like Liverpool or City. And even then they try to hold a high line and break through the midfield. Not using long balls to Lukaku. Chelsea also possess the ball using Jorginho and build play from the back but at a much higher tempo because their CBs push up. As a result the space between their players is much smaller than ours. That way the tempo of their passing is much higher. (passing a small distance increases completion rates and makes it much more difficult to intercept).
That way when Lukaku first gets involved in play Chelsea are already in the attacking third of the opposition. Whereas our CBs sit very deep. As a result when Auba gets involved he is nearer the half way line. Its much easier for opposing CBs to press your striker when he is at the half way line because any foul they may give away is distant from their own goal and refs are not going to book a foul in middle of the pitch. When Lukaku touches the ball in the final third of the opposition, oppo CBs are far more careful not to foul. Any foul in the final third can lead to a free kick into the penalty area.
I believe the reason why we spent £140m+ on our defence was so that we could also do that. Push up from our CBs as a team and play out through our midfield. But Arteta refuses to do that and its infuriating.
posted on 3/10/21
"Chelsea don't sit deep unless its against a high press team like Liverpool or City."
_
Brighton are a high pressing team. One of the best in the league right now.
"Not using long balls to Lukaku. "
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Yes they do
"As a result the space between their players is much smaller than ours."
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Not too different to us in the games that we control.
"That way when Lukaku first gets involved in play Chelsea are already in the attacking third of the opposition."
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Insanely incorrect.
"When Lukaku touches the ball in the final third of the opposition"
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Obviously, but you clearly overlook the amount of times Lukaku (and Werner) ride challenges out wide in the opposition third.
"I believe the reason why we spent £140m+ on our defence was so that we could also do that. Push up from our CBs as a team and play out through our midfield. But Arteta refuses to do that and its infuriating."
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I believe we absolutely will play that way if Arteta can pluck up the courage to replace Aubameyang. Otherwise we will always struggle against the high pressing teams regardless of his tactics.
posted on 3/10/21
"That way when Lukaku first gets involved in play Chelsea are already in the attacking third of the opposition."
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Insanely incorrect.
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We'll disagree on that. Just watch the highlights against Southampton.
Chelsea are not a long ball team. And only a long ball team will target their striker when they are in their own half.
Just think about that for a second. Pulis, fat Sam, old Moyes etc. basic tactics are just that. Clear it to the big man up front and then build off the knock downs. John Fashanu at his best.
This is why those clubs want strikers like Peter Crouch, tall and physically imposing.
Chelsea build through their midfield. This is why Jorginho is such a important player for them.
posted on 3/10/21
I really don't want to go down a rabbit hole of just slagging Auba off either. He's clearly been an excellent striker and has scored a lot of goals for us.
He simply is not the right striker for A) how we play right now and B) how fans want us to play going forward. The effect this has on the team is hugely understated by fans who think instead that Arteta gathers everyone round to tell them "sit deep, don't press" . It's laughable.
We have to get away from thinking that we can only replace Auba with an elite level striker. Signing a "decent" striker that suits our game would take us up so many levels and close the gap to the top 4 - again, Chelsea did this with Giroud.
Leicester are a great example of this. West Ham too and now Brighton. Teams that you'll only ever want 1 or 2 of their players but as a unit they're growing because they sign players based on attributes and not status. All the buzz is that this is what we're doing now (Ramsdale), but with Auba as Captain I can't see the club taking that next key step (more important than replacing Xhaka imo).
posted on 3/10/21
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 6 minutes ago
Chelsea are not a long ball team. And only a long ball team will target their striker when they are in their own half.
Just think about that for a second. Pulis, fat Sam, old Moyes etc. basic tactics are just that. Clear it to the big man up front and then build off the knock downs. John Fashanu at his best.
This is why those clubs want strikers like Peter Crouch, tall and physically imposing.
Chelsea build through their midfield. This is why Jorginho is such a important player for them.
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Such a prehistoric way of looking at football.
All the top teams, even Liverpool that you love so much have attackers that can hold up play as an out ball. We simply do not have this and it causes the whole team to regress.
Lukaku wasn't my only example yet you focus on this because it's easy to fit him into the bigman, hoofball, Tony pulis argument. Tony Pulis would never push a Werner like I have who does a similar job but in a different fashion.
Mane for Liverpool isn't an outball purely for his place. He's an exceptionally athletic player who can shield the ball and allow his team mates to get up the pitch. Firmino is another great example, who's technique allows Liverpool to build attacks off him. You can't play the way you want us to play with the forwards we have - Saka and ESR have the attributes but they can not carry out CF/AM week in, week out.
posted on 3/10/21
I am not sure why you think it will all suddenly fall into place if we have a different striker.
Essentially if you want the striker to be involved in play while our CBs are camped at the edge of our own box you are suggesting we should bypass the midfield. That is essentially long ball tactics.
And I am not sure why you think fans would tolerate that.
Chelsea bought Giroud as a backup. Most of the time he was used as a sub when teams were camped in their own half (parking the bus) and he became a presence in the penalty area to build combinations rather than usual crossing tactics. In fact thats how Wenger used him. We never used to launch balls at him because we couldn't get out of our own area. In fact one the issues we used to have with Mertesacker as CB was that as we pushed up as a team, he was very vulnerable to being turned and counter attacked. But Wenger never stopped doing that.
And thats what I am discussing here. Why can't we move up the pitch under a high press from the opposition. You blaming Auba or in fact any striker for that just doesn't make sense.
posted on 3/10/21
Have you ever played in a game of football where your striker can't keep hold of the ball? Have a think about how this made your Midfield & Defence play.
posted on 3/10/21
We are not discussing playing on the Hackney marshes.
If you want us to play like all the top teams we have to possess the ball as the first mantra.
Possession is key and then moving up the pitch as a team.
Just look at our possession stats. We used to lose games under Wenger to Palace, and other teams. But we still out possessed them. We can't even win the possession game at home these days. Spurs out possessed us even when we were winning 3-0.
posted on 3/10/21
In other words no, you have no playing experience to draw from. It will obviously be much easier for you to just attempt to out me down about my own
Played against professionals, played against some exceptional semi professional teams and been coached by UEFA qualified coaches.
I play as a midfielder and fully understand how the team regresses when your striker and AM can not retain possession. I've experienced the whole team dropping deep on the back of this, regardless of how we were instructed to play. This is where I draw my experience from.
Defender's dropping deep is an attempt to retain possession. If your forwards can't open up passing lanes then your defence tries to other avenues to pass backwards - if your attack continues to offer nothing then your options continue to remain backwards until you are in your own third with no where to go.
Entitled to think whatever you like from here on out, I won't change your opinion. You won't change mine. A day of debate and we're still miles apart.
posted on 3/10/21
comment by RonAlvinho (U6117)
posted 1 minute ago
In other words no, you have no playing experience to draw from. It will obviously be much easier for you to just attempt to out me down about my own
Played against professionals, played against some exceptional semi professional teams and been coached by UEFA qualified coaches.
I play as a midfielder and fully understand how the team regresses when your striker and AM can not retain possession. I've experienced the whole team dropping deep on the back of this, regardless of how we were instructed to play. This is where I draw my experience from.
Defender's dropping deep is an attempt to retain possession. If your forwards can't open up passing lanes then your defence tries to other avenues to pass backwards - if your attack continues to offer nothing then your options continue to remain backwards until you are in your own third with no where to go.
Entitled to think whatever you like from here on out, I won't change your opinion. You won't change mine. A day of debate and we're still miles apart.
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I have made this point on numerous occasions. One of the reasons we struggle to control games is because of our attackers.
There is zero chemistry between an Auba and our MF. When your getting pressed like we did yesterday, Auba isnt your guy.
posted on 3/10/21
I am trying not to get personal here. I avoid that because we are posting in an anonymous forum and for all you know I could be Josh Kroenke or Darren Dein or Klopp or Joe down the street. Your opinions are just as valid as mine. And as we are discussing a point of view lets not get drawn into a pissiing contest.
Our problems are literally further back at the moment. Lacazette came on today and added absolutely nothing. And I promise you nothing would change if we had Isak or Lewa was playing for us.
As usual Arteta even identified the issue:
'But in the end we never felt in control of the game and we struggled to break their press and get a good sequence of passes and impose ourselves in the final third and they made it really tough for us.'
Its classic Arteta because he is absolutely correct. And it will be also classic Arteta to be able to do nothing about it because he doesn't know how to and has surrounded himself with very poor coaches that will be no help to him solve the problem.
posted on 18/10/21
comment by Invisible Auba (U18355)
posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago
Apart from GT probably
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Result wise we are.
posted on 18/10/21
Kami hasnt renewed his prediction league thread so pls. use this link.
https://www.ja606.co.uk/articles/viewArticle/438499
posted on 18/10/21
Adrian Clarke
@adrianjclarke
·
4 Min.
No Zaha for Palace. Very attack minded Arsenal starting XI incoming,,,
posted on 18/10/21
COME ON PADDY V
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