I think the overriding point here is that having a squad full of 'good' players with a couple of 'very good' players sprinkled in, no matter who the Manager is, will only get you so far.
That's not limited to Spurs. Liverpool came 2nd and lost in a CL final. They spend what they need to spend to take the next step, and lo and behold, they win the CL and the Prem.
City in 10/11 beat us with that Crouch own goal to finish in the top four. They had good players in Zabaleta, Tevez, Dzeko, Kompany. Did they stand still like we did? No, they bought Aguero and Nasri and won the league.
Now obviously I'm not stupid, we don't have the Resources they had. But we could have done a hell of a lot better than we did in the summers of 17/18 (Sanchez and Aurier who still fail to convince) and 18/19 (no one - could have had Grealish/Tielemans), even 19/20 when we did spend (N'dombele. Lo Celso, Sessegnon) - N'dombele took a season to adjust, Lo Celso was ok but didn't score a single league goal in his first season and seems injury prone and Sess had virtually no impact. All this while losing Dembele, Vertonghen, Eriksen. This all happened mainly under the Management of Poch, and is what Mourinho has walked into. It takes more than one window, as good as Summer 20/21 seemed at the time, to start to fix that!
When ever we have one okay result we have someone thinking Jose is doing a decent job.
I'm sorry but those saying we were under pressure against zagreb don't have a clue about football. By that standpoint you could say there is pressure in every game. Yes of course there is but when we talk about real pressure, i see it as semis, finals, crunch league games etc. That was not zagreb!
So fans saying "we didn't turn up against Zagreb because of the pressure like usual" - ok so were we under pressure against wolfsberger? Were we under pressure against brentford in the CC semi? Seems like fans just use this pressure tag because it was a game we lost. Had we flopped against brentford there would have been talk about not turning up when it mattered.
But we turned up against ajax didn't we... Turned up against west brom earlier in the season to go top for the first time...
Simple fact is it was a shocking performance, mourinho is a shocking manager. But i dont buy this pressure nonsense
comment by Troy'sTanguyTanganga (U6468)
posted 1 minute ago
When ever we have one okay result we have someone thinking Jose is doing a decent job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am torn on how well Jose is doing. We are not that badly placed in the league, despite everything and have a pop at a trophy too.
That is the pluses.
We surrendered too easily in some games and certain players were not given a proper chance to do well in the league, like Vinni, Tanganga and Rodon.
That's the downside of Jose regime
While the players must carry much of the responsibility as they are the ones on the pitch implementing the strategy, I do think that Jose sets the tone for the performances.
Jose's big selling point is that he gets teams over the line. He knows how to win those clutch games and it doesnt matter how, winning is all that matters in teh big games. This has not happened with Spurs, even our League Cup final appearance has been built on a pretty easy draw.
This strength of his though is also his weakness. The approach sees us play the situation rather than focussing on us and our strengths. So in a big game risks are minimised and we try to exploit the opposition weaknesses. vs Zagreb we knew they had to score so we passively waited for them to open up against us to try and exploit this.....What we should have done is thought, another goal and they need 4. Lets go out there and batter them and put the game out of reach, get Kane et al off, bring on some kids. Jose and the players might be critical of themselves but we are seeing this too often. In the latter stages of that game and vs Arsenal we imposed ourselves in pursuit of a goal in a way we only do when we are losing.
The Jose approach is fine if you can rely on your defence but we cannot. I do not think this is entirely because of our players, I think generally the art of defending has changed a lot, with the sort of refereeing and VAR we have now. Contact is a foul and this is very different to Jose's peak times at Chelsea with John Terry etc.
With Spurs it is also seen as a weakness, going back to that WHU game, teams have constant hope that even at 2-0 to us, 1 goal for them will lead to 2 or 3. So long as this perceptions exists it will give the opposition hope.
Football has also changed. Many teams play in a way which is far more aggressive. A team needs fitness and organisation to be able to effectively press teams, so any team, no matter their quality, can make our life tough, especially if we are being passive waiting for their mistakes, and are ourselves, not that good under a press.
So for me, the Jose approach fails to work effectively in the modern game, where we are not that good building from the back, where we cannot rely totally on our defence and where we start games looking to take no risks and stay in a game rather than seeking to be the aggressor, imposing our will on the opposition.
Jose might be able instill that winning mentality in to the players' minds which they have lacked, but this is undermined by our approach to the games which does not give us the best chance of winning.
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 59 seconds ago
I think the overriding point here is that having a squad full of 'good' players with a couple of 'very good' players sprinkled in, no matter who the Manager is, will only get you so far.
That's not limited to Spurs. Liverpool came 2nd and lost in a CL final. They spend what they need to spend to take the next step, and lo and behold, they win the CL and the Prem.
City in 10/11 beat us with that Crouch own goal to finish in the top four. They had good players in Zabaleta, Tevez, Dzeko, Kompany. Did they stand still like we did? No, they bought Aguero and Nasri and won the league.
Now obviously I'm not stupid, we don't have the Resources they had. But we could have done a hell of a lot better than we did in the summers of 17/18 (Sanchez and Aurier who still fail to convince) and 18/19 (no one - could have had Grealish/Tielemans), even 19/20 when we did spend (N'dombele. Lo Celso, Sessegnon) - N'dombele took a season to adjust, Lo Celso was ok but didn't score a single league goal in his first season and seems injury prone and Sess had virtually no impact. All this while losing Dembele, Vertonghen, Eriksen. This all happened mainly under the Management of Poch, and is what Mourinho has walked into. It takes more than one window, as good as Summer 20/21 seemed at the time, to start to fix that!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The advantage that other clubs who've strengthened and won things as a result have over us is that their existing players have retained their original standards.
In the last 2 years for varying reasons we've had Eriksen, Rose, Jan, Hugo, Toby, Winks and Dele all fall apart together and when you combine that with poor signings like Sissoko, Sanchez and Aurier its no surprise that we have gone backwards.
As I've previously stated the whole squad needs to be broken up and lets start again. I'm looking forward to Skipp in midfield next season now theres a change for the better already.
comment by PawlBawron (U1055)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 59 seconds ago
I think the overriding point here is that having a squad full of 'good' players with a couple of 'very good' players sprinkled in, no matter who the Manager is, will only get you so far.
That's not limited to Spurs. Liverpool came 2nd and lost in a CL final. They spend what they need to spend to take the next step, and lo and behold, they win the CL and the Prem.
City in 10/11 beat us with that Crouch own goal to finish in the top four. They had good players in Zabaleta, Tevez, Dzeko, Kompany. Did they stand still like we did? No, they bought Aguero and Nasri and won the league.
Now obviously I'm not stupid, we don't have the Resources they had. But we could have done a hell of a lot better than we did in the summers of 17/18 (Sanchez and Aurier who still fail to convince) and 18/19 (no one - could have had Grealish/Tielemans), even 19/20 when we did spend (N'dombele. Lo Celso, Sessegnon) - N'dombele took a season to adjust, Lo Celso was ok but didn't score a single league goal in his first season and seems injury prone and Sess had virtually no impact. All this while losing Dembele, Vertonghen, Eriksen. This all happened mainly under the Management of Poch, and is what Mourinho has walked into. It takes more than one window, as good as Summer 20/21 seemed at the time, to start to fix that!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The advantage that other clubs who've strengthened and won things as a result have over us is that their existing players have retained their original standards.
In the last 2 years for varying reasons we've had Eriksen, Rose, Jan, Hugo, Toby, Winks and Dele all fall apart together and when you combine that with poor signings like Sissoko, Sanchez and Aurier its no surprise that we have gone backwards.
As I've previously stated the whole squad needs to be broken up and lets start again. I'm looking forward to Skipp in midfield next season now theres a change for the better already.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd argue that the existing players kept their standards for as long as anyone could deem reasonably possible. Between 15/16 and 18/19, with barely any investment at all, pretty much the same group of players finished 3rd, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. They needed the investment that we saw in 2019 and 2020, in 2017 or 2018. As simple as that really!
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 17 minutes ago
You don't 'fluke' top 4. You don't really 'fluke' a run to a CL final as all knockouts are over 2 legs against the best opposition in the world. We had some good fortune along the way, sure, but we didn't fluke any of that.
For the record, I wasn't anti-Jose from day one, despite what some of his disciples here think. I was sceptical, sure, but I was hoping he would come back from his difficult United time a better manager.
From very early on, the signs for me weren't great. We scrapped any passing game and soon began hoofing the ball up to Kane, relying entirely on our talisman when in years gone by we coped with his injuries by playing as a team. Game upon we game we fewer possession. We stopped pressing. Patterns of play started disappearing and we retreated as a team to our own 18 yard box, for every game. The plan? Defend like we're a third tier side against Prem opposition in a cup game and punt it up to the two world class players we have. That was a Jose's 'masterclass', apparently. When we win it's down to individual brilliance and when we lose it's because those two had an off game.
It's continued like that for 18 months with no real progression, no team cohesion, noises about unrest, terrible style of play and above all worse results than Poch's, admittedly, poor final 6 months.
To see no reason why we're calling for Jose's head is frankly baffling. He's been here 18 months but we've regressed about 18 years since he's been here. I know this game is all about opinions and you're entitled to yours but as far as I'm concerned, you're just plain wrong.
I don't want to give Jose another penny to spend. Give him the rest of the season but then it's thanks but no thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent post.
The fluking it to a CL final always makes me laugh. We thrashed Dortmund, who were top of the Bundesliga, beat probably the greatest team in premier league history in the quarters then showed huge heart to beat a quality young Ajax team.
Under Jose in Europe we have been battered by Leipzig and humiliated by Zagreb. There is literally no chance we could 'fluke' a CL final now. Very little chance of even playing in the CL under jose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fantastic 2 posts here. Agree completely with it all. Jose has had the easiest draws possible in pretty much every single competition hes had with us- 2x FA cups, CL, Europa (look at our group and the 2 knockout teams bloody hell) and the League cup.
Dumped out of every competition pending Man City spanking us. Not to mention our league form is not good, its worse than Poch's was that got him the sack. This is the same Poch who had so much credit in the bank for "fluking" us to the CL final. (Side note - so disrespectful that is. And i see nobody say we had a poor mentality there). How Jose still has a job is not acceptable
comment by morespurs (U15748)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Troy'sTanguyTanganga (U6468)
posted 1 minute ago
When ever we have one okay result we have someone thinking Jose is doing a decent job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am torn on how well Jose is doing. We are not that badly placed in the league, despite everything and have a pop at a trophy too.
That is the pluses.
We surrendered too easily in some games and certain players were not given a proper chance to do well in the league, like Vinni, Tanganga and Rodon.
That's the downside of Jose regime
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well agree its not all bad we also look poorly coached and simply dont look like we getting the best out of most pf our players. There are alot of players that need to be moved on I just dont trust Jose to do the job of rebuilding the squad.
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 40 seconds ago
Which of Jose's many rebuilding projects was it that has made you confident that he was the man for the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say he's ever managed a 'rebuild', but if you look throughout his career, many times he has taken over a club who had been underperforming in relative terms to that club, and made them successful in his time there if given the backing.
The problem lies there - the backing he will get here will be a lot less than he's been used to elsewhere, which will ultimately be his undoing, yet we as fans and as a club are expecting similar results that he has achieved elsewhere (title challenges, trophies, CL runs etc).
Chelsea gave him Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Madrid gave him Di Maria, Carvalho, Essien, Inter gave him Sneijder, Eto'o, Chelsea gave him Costa, Fabregas etc etc.
So far the best he's got from us is Hojbjerg and Reguilon, thrown in with the likes of Doherty, Winks, Sissoko. Is it really any wonder that he hasn't been able to stamp his mark on us yet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He's gone to top clubs, made them better straight away and then faaacked off after 3 years
There is nothing to suggest Jose can build a side - you've listed Doherty as an excuse for Jose but that was literally the player he wanted. That is his mindset - sign tall old functional players to help me win now.
comment by Ebeneezer (U1397)
posted 13 minutes ago
jose will come good
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Give it a rest Sandy
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 40 seconds ago
Which of Jose's many rebuilding projects was it that has made you confident that he was the man for the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say he's ever managed a 'rebuild', but if you look throughout his career, many times he has taken over a club who had been underperforming in relative terms to that club, and made them successful in his time there if given the backing.
The problem lies there - the backing he will get here will be a lot less than he's been used to elsewhere, which will ultimately be his undoing, yet we as fans and as a club are expecting similar results that he has achieved elsewhere (title challenges, trophies, CL runs etc).
Chelsea gave him Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Madrid gave him Di Maria, Carvalho, Essien, Inter gave him Sneijder, Eto'o, Chelsea gave him Costa, Fabregas etc etc.
So far the best he's got from us is Hojbjerg and Reguilon, thrown in with the likes of Doherty, Winks, Sissoko. Is it really any wonder that he hasn't been able to stamp his mark on us yet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He's gone to top clubs, made them better straight away and then faaacked off after 3 years
There is nothing to suggest Jose can build a side - you've listed Doherty as an excuse for Jose but that was literally the player he wanted. That is his mindset - sign tall old functional players to help me win now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wanted him because he saw him as the best budge option, and this is my point, while he's here, under Levy, he's always going to have to have the budget option.
Rodon is a budget Skriniar, even Hojbjerg was a budget option. I'm not denying he's been good, but if he was that good in the first place, we wouldn't have been in with a sniff because Bayern/City etc would be in for him.
The best we can hope for is budget options from smaller clubs like Hojbjerg, Rodon, Sessegnon, Alli, Eriksen or cast offs from bigger clubs/teams such as Reguilon, Lo Celso and Moura from PSG etc.
Liverpool have shown you can make a good team from these types of players - Robertson, Wijnaldum, Mane etc. But to truly get to the next level, you have to go out and sign the best you can, for more money than you're used to, like they did with Alisson and Van Dijk. We never made this step.
The one exception where we managed to sway a player that bigger clubs than us were genuinely interested in is N'Dombele, and he will be poached if we don't have a good season in 21/22.
I read what you say and all I see is more reasons why we should sack him
Why should we have a man in charge who straight up cannot compete without spending big? Sure it's going to he difficult for any manager in that situation but others are clearly have a better track record of building good sides on a small budget
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 40 seconds ago
Which of Jose's many rebuilding projects was it that has made you confident that he was the man for the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say he's ever managed a 'rebuild', but if you look throughout his career, many times he has taken over a club who had been underperforming in relative terms to that club, and made them successful in his time there if given the backing.
The problem lies there - the backing he will get here will be a lot less than he's been used to elsewhere, which will ultimately be his undoing, yet we as fans and as a club are expecting similar results that he has achieved elsewhere (title challenges, trophies, CL runs etc).
Chelsea gave him Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Madrid gave him Di Maria, Carvalho, Essien, Inter gave him Sneijder, Eto'o, Chelsea gave him Costa, Fabregas etc etc.
So far the best he's got from us is Hojbjerg and Reguilon, thrown in with the likes of Doherty, Winks, Sissoko. Is it really any wonder that he hasn't been able to stamp his mark on us yet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He's gone to top clubs, made them better straight away and then faaacked off after 3 years
There is nothing to suggest Jose can build a side - you've listed Doherty as an excuse for Jose but that was literally the player he wanted. That is his mindset - sign tall old functional players to help me win now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wanted him because he saw him as the best budge option, and this is my point, while he's here, under Levy, he's always going to have to have the budget option.
Rodon is a budget Skriniar, even Hojbjerg was a budget option. I'm not denying he's been good, but if he was that good in the first place, we wouldn't have been in with a sniff because Bayern/City etc would be in for him.
The best we can hope for is budget options from smaller clubs like Hojbjerg, Rodon, Sessegnon, Alli, Eriksen or cast offs from bigger clubs/teams such as Reguilon, Lo Celso and Moura from PSG etc.
Liverpool have shown you can make a good team from these types of players - Robertson, Wijnaldum, Mane etc. But to truly get to the next level, you have to go out and sign the best you can, for more money than you're used to, like they did with Alisson and Van Dijk. We never made this step.
The one exception where we managed to sway a player that bigger clubs than us were genuinely interested in is N'Dombele, and he will be poached if we don't have a good season in 21/22.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we give Jose world class players then he'll do better...
We're not signing VVD and Allison so he will have to work within the clubs means.
What in Jose's time here suggests to you he can coach the players to become a better team?
Leipzig spent 3m net in transfer fees this season and are challenging the European champions for the title
Other managers are a better fit for this job - this was obvious before we even hired Jose
I wanted Poch to stay put and be given more time but this has no bearing on my judgement of Jose.
At the moment I'm Jose out but I will fully judge come the end of the season. The reasons for this are:
1) I believe he has underachieved in his objectives so far. Below where we should be in the league, and barring the League Cup, out of all the other cups and competitions early (this season and last).
2) Poor football for the majority and seemingly little degree of consistency to say things have or are improving under him. Look at our recent record against top half clubs.
3) His record at previous jobs suggests he is past his best and that he sucks the life out of teams. When you combine this with the 2 things above then what hope does it really give you? I was never a fan of him coming in to begin with for this reason.
Obviously if there is a surprising turn around in form and we win the League Cup, finish top 4, and end on a high form wise with a good unbeaten/winning record then I may change my mind.
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 40 seconds ago
Which of Jose's many rebuilding projects was it that has made you confident that he was the man for the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say he's ever managed a 'rebuild', but if you look throughout his career, many times he has taken over a club who had been underperforming in relative terms to that club, and made them successful in his time there if given the backing.
The problem lies there - the backing he will get here will be a lot less than he's been used to elsewhere, which will ultimately be his undoing, yet we as fans and as a club are expecting similar results that he has achieved elsewhere (title challenges, trophies, CL runs etc).
Chelsea gave him Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Madrid gave him Di Maria, Carvalho, Essien, Inter gave him Sneijder, Eto'o, Chelsea gave him Costa, Fabregas etc etc.
So far the best he's got from us is Hojbjerg and Reguilon, thrown in with the likes of Doherty, Winks, Sissoko. Is it really any wonder that he hasn't been able to stamp his mark on us yet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He's gone to top clubs, made them better straight away and then faaacked off after 3 years
There is nothing to suggest Jose can build a side - you've listed Doherty as an excuse for Jose but that was literally the player he wanted. That is his mindset - sign tall old functional players to help me win now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wanted him because he saw him as the best budge option, and this is my point, while he's here, under Levy, he's always going to have to have the budget option.
Rodon is a budget Skriniar, even Hojbjerg was a budget option. I'm not denying he's been good, but if he was that good in the first place, we wouldn't have been in with a sniff because Bayern/City etc would be in for him.
The best we can hope for is budget options from smaller clubs like Hojbjerg, Rodon, Sessegnon, Alli, Eriksen or cast offs from bigger clubs/teams such as Reguilon, Lo Celso and Moura from PSG etc.
Liverpool have shown you can make a good team from these types of players - Robertson, Wijnaldum, Mane etc. But to truly get to the next level, you have to go out and sign the best you can, for more money than you're used to, like they did with Alisson and Van Dijk. We never made this step.
The one exception where we managed to sway a player that bigger clubs than us were genuinely interested in is N'Dombele, and he will be poached if we don't have a good season in 21/22.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we give Jose world class players then he'll do better...
We're not signing VVD and Allison so he will have to work within the clubs means.
What in Jose's time here suggests to you he can coach the players to become a better team?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly, we're not, but he's still getting scrutinised as if we're a team who can and has signed those players.
We as fans are basically expecting of him exactly what Real Madrid, Chelsea (twice) and Man Utd fans were, are we not? Title challenges? Cup wins?
That to me is what he was brought here to do - he can't do it without the tools. He's proven that he can with them, time and time again.
Your question about him coaching the players to become a better team - I don't think he can. Not that he doesn't have his faults, but I don't think the players have that potential, even if some are in his 'mould'. As I stated earlier, it would be like asking Pep to take 'good' but not 'great' players who have the qualities that he likes in a player (passing, dribbling), off the top of my head players such as Lallana, Winks, Eze, Buendia and and making them play like Silva, Gundogan, Bernardo etc.
This to me is what Mourinho is working with in relative terms, so we can't expect the same output until we get the players he wants, as Pep and Klopp did.
Some good comments from Spurtle, Chris, fridge and Anne.
I would also like to emphasise regarding Jose and youth that using one or two young players to have one or two debut’s really means nothing. Properly blooding and improving youth players means genuinely integrating them into the squad and giving them a real platform to push on from. Tanganga is the only player this is applicable for.
I think everyone's missing the point about not providing Jose with the best players. The very fact that he can't get the best players is one reason why he was the wrong appointment. That's our model. We can't afford to get the very best players so we need someone that has good coaching on their CV. A progressive type, like Poch, who can make a team greater than the sum of their parts.
Your criticisms of the board for not giving Jose billions to blow are the exact reason why I think Nagelsmann is the right choice. He can take the players within our budget and make them better players. He fits our model. Asking Levy to splash to cash for Jose is admitting he made the wrong appointment. Square pegs, round holes. Nothing against him personally but he's not right for us.
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 40 seconds ago
Which of Jose's many rebuilding projects was it that has made you confident that he was the man for the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say he's ever managed a 'rebuild', but if you look throughout his career, many times he has taken over a club who had been underperforming in relative terms to that club, and made them successful in his time there if given the backing.
The problem lies there - the backing he will get here will be a lot less than he's been used to elsewhere, which will ultimately be his undoing, yet we as fans and as a club are expecting similar results that he has achieved elsewhere (title challenges, trophies, CL runs etc).
Chelsea gave him Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Madrid gave him Di Maria, Carvalho, Essien, Inter gave him Sneijder, Eto'o, Chelsea gave him Costa, Fabregas etc etc.
So far the best he's got from us is Hojbjerg and Reguilon, thrown in with the likes of Doherty, Winks, Sissoko. Is it really any wonder that he hasn't been able to stamp his mark on us yet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He's gone to top clubs, made them better straight away and then faaacked off after 3 years
There is nothing to suggest Jose can build a side - you've listed Doherty as an excuse for Jose but that was literally the player he wanted. That is his mindset - sign tall old functional players to help me win now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wanted him because he saw him as the best budge option, and this is my point, while he's here, under Levy, he's always going to have to have the budget option.
Rodon is a budget Skriniar, even Hojbjerg was a budget option. I'm not denying he's been good, but if he was that good in the first place, we wouldn't have been in with a sniff because Bayern/City etc would be in for him.
The best we can hope for is budget options from smaller clubs like Hojbjerg, Rodon, Sessegnon, Alli, Eriksen or cast offs from bigger clubs/teams such as Reguilon, Lo Celso and Moura from PSG etc.
Liverpool have shown you can make a good team from these types of players - Robertson, Wijnaldum, Mane etc. But to truly get to the next level, you have to go out and sign the best you can, for more money than you're used to, like they did with Alisson and Van Dijk. We never made this step.
The one exception where we managed to sway a player that bigger clubs than us were genuinely interested in is N'Dombele, and he will be poached if we don't have a good season in 21/22.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we give Jose world class players then he'll do better...
We're not signing VVD and Allison so he will have to work within the clubs means.
What in Jose's time here suggests to you he can coach the players to become a better team?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly, we're not, but he's still getting scrutinised as if we're a team who can and has signed those players.
We as fans are basically expecting of him exactly what Real Madrid, Chelsea (twice) and Man Utd fans were, are we not? Title challenges? Cup wins?
That to me is what he was brought here to do - he can't do it without the tools. He's proven that he can with them, time and time again.
Your question about him coaching the players to become a better team - I don't think he can. Not that he doesn't have his faults, but I don't think the players have that potential, even if some are in his 'mould'. As I stated earlier, it would be like asking Pep to take 'good' but not 'great' players who have the qualities that he likes in a player (passing, dribbling), off the top of my head players such as Lallana, Winks, Eze, Buendia and and making them play like Silva, Gundogan, Bernardo etc.
This to me is what Mourinho is working with in relative terms, so we can't expect the same output until we get the players he wants, as Pep and Klopp did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jose want get the players he wants. Levy should get a manager who can work within his budget.
Imo our squad is on par with United and chelsea so that's the benchmark for me.
At the start of the season both clubs were managed by inexperienced and quite frankly poor managers for this level.
United are currently 9 points above us and got through much tougher Europa league draws.
Chelsea sacked their incompetent manager (like we should have) and are unbeaten since hiring a quality manager, brushing Atletico aside to get to the CL quarters.
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 4 minutes ago
I think everyone's missing the point about not providing Jose with the best players. The very fact that he can't get the best players is one reason why he was the wrong appointment. That's our model. We can't afford to get the very best players so we need someone that has good coaching on their CV. A progressive type, like Poch, who can make a team greater than the sum of their parts.
Your criticisms of the board for not giving Jose billions to blow are the exact reason why I think Nagelsmann is the right choice. He can take the players within our budget and make them better players. He fits our model. Asking Levy to splash to cash for Jose is admitting he made the wrong appointment. Square pegs, round holes. Nothing against him personally but he's not right for us.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At the time of his appointment the model of the club had changed in terms of finance. The death star, I mean stadium was fully operational. Gigs, fights as well as NFL matches were being booked. Income was going to increase to help finance the playing squad as well as paying off stadium debt. At that time he was the right fit as the model of the club was on the cusp of changing.
Then Covid came and took the model back to the old WHL in terms of finance which is where we are now.
We are going to struggle to break even I think? I wonder how much the Cinch deal is worth? Details have not been disclosed. But you are right. Right now we are back to a break even model. Problem is getting rid of Jose will cost in excess of £20m. Can we really afford it?
Not that I want to anyway. He seems to be on the right track after 3 quarters of the season in terms of identfying which players he can trust.
I don't think we will make top 4 but I would like him oversea the rebuild. A new manager may stick with the same rats. Do we want to risk that? Jose IN.
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 9 minutes ago
Imo our squad is on par with United and chelsea so that's the benchmark for me.
At the start of the season both clubs were managed by inexperienced and quite frankly poor managers for this level.
United are currently 9 points above us and got through much tougher Europa league draws.
Chelsea sacked their incompetent manager (like we should have) and are unbeaten since hiring a quality manager, brushing Atletico aside to get to the CL quarters.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Both teams have better defences than us and their squad players are much better too. We have Aurier, Doherty, Davies, Dier , Sissoko and Winks. None would get anywhere near Utd or Chelsea squads.
To say they are on par is misleading.
I found it embarrassing for ourselves the way Leicester convincingly beat United in a big cup tie in the later rounds yesterday. All this past decade while we've been a mostly top 4 team we always folded in the later rounds to opposition like that.
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The "Jose out" Cult and our Overreaction
Page 3 of 4
posted on 22/3/21
I think the overriding point here is that having a squad full of 'good' players with a couple of 'very good' players sprinkled in, no matter who the Manager is, will only get you so far.
That's not limited to Spurs. Liverpool came 2nd and lost in a CL final. They spend what they need to spend to take the next step, and lo and behold, they win the CL and the Prem.
City in 10/11 beat us with that Crouch own goal to finish in the top four. They had good players in Zabaleta, Tevez, Dzeko, Kompany. Did they stand still like we did? No, they bought Aguero and Nasri and won the league.
Now obviously I'm not stupid, we don't have the Resources they had. But we could have done a hell of a lot better than we did in the summers of 17/18 (Sanchez and Aurier who still fail to convince) and 18/19 (no one - could have had Grealish/Tielemans), even 19/20 when we did spend (N'dombele. Lo Celso, Sessegnon) - N'dombele took a season to adjust, Lo Celso was ok but didn't score a single league goal in his first season and seems injury prone and Sess had virtually no impact. All this while losing Dembele, Vertonghen, Eriksen. This all happened mainly under the Management of Poch, and is what Mourinho has walked into. It takes more than one window, as good as Summer 20/21 seemed at the time, to start to fix that!
posted on 22/3/21
When ever we have one okay result we have someone thinking Jose is doing a decent job.
posted on 22/3/21
I'm sorry but those saying we were under pressure against zagreb don't have a clue about football. By that standpoint you could say there is pressure in every game. Yes of course there is but when we talk about real pressure, i see it as semis, finals, crunch league games etc. That was not zagreb!
So fans saying "we didn't turn up against Zagreb because of the pressure like usual" - ok so were we under pressure against wolfsberger? Were we under pressure against brentford in the CC semi? Seems like fans just use this pressure tag because it was a game we lost. Had we flopped against brentford there would have been talk about not turning up when it mattered.
But we turned up against ajax didn't we... Turned up against west brom earlier in the season to go top for the first time...
Simple fact is it was a shocking performance, mourinho is a shocking manager. But i dont buy this pressure nonsense
posted on 22/3/21
comment by Troy'sTanguyTanganga (U6468)
posted 1 minute ago
When ever we have one okay result we have someone thinking Jose is doing a decent job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am torn on how well Jose is doing. We are not that badly placed in the league, despite everything and have a pop at a trophy too.
That is the pluses.
We surrendered too easily in some games and certain players were not given a proper chance to do well in the league, like Vinni, Tanganga and Rodon.
That's the downside of Jose regime
posted on 22/3/21
While the players must carry much of the responsibility as they are the ones on the pitch implementing the strategy, I do think that Jose sets the tone for the performances.
Jose's big selling point is that he gets teams over the line. He knows how to win those clutch games and it doesnt matter how, winning is all that matters in teh big games. This has not happened with Spurs, even our League Cup final appearance has been built on a pretty easy draw.
This strength of his though is also his weakness. The approach sees us play the situation rather than focussing on us and our strengths. So in a big game risks are minimised and we try to exploit the opposition weaknesses. vs Zagreb we knew they had to score so we passively waited for them to open up against us to try and exploit this.....What we should have done is thought, another goal and they need 4. Lets go out there and batter them and put the game out of reach, get Kane et al off, bring on some kids. Jose and the players might be critical of themselves but we are seeing this too often. In the latter stages of that game and vs Arsenal we imposed ourselves in pursuit of a goal in a way we only do when we are losing.
The Jose approach is fine if you can rely on your defence but we cannot. I do not think this is entirely because of our players, I think generally the art of defending has changed a lot, with the sort of refereeing and VAR we have now. Contact is a foul and this is very different to Jose's peak times at Chelsea with John Terry etc.
With Spurs it is also seen as a weakness, going back to that WHU game, teams have constant hope that even at 2-0 to us, 1 goal for them will lead to 2 or 3. So long as this perceptions exists it will give the opposition hope.
Football has also changed. Many teams play in a way which is far more aggressive. A team needs fitness and organisation to be able to effectively press teams, so any team, no matter their quality, can make our life tough, especially if we are being passive waiting for their mistakes, and are ourselves, not that good under a press.
So for me, the Jose approach fails to work effectively in the modern game, where we are not that good building from the back, where we cannot rely totally on our defence and where we start games looking to take no risks and stay in a game rather than seeking to be the aggressor, imposing our will on the opposition.
Jose might be able instill that winning mentality in to the players' minds which they have lacked, but this is undermined by our approach to the games which does not give us the best chance of winning.
posted on 22/3/21
jose will come good
posted on 22/3/21
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 59 seconds ago
I think the overriding point here is that having a squad full of 'good' players with a couple of 'very good' players sprinkled in, no matter who the Manager is, will only get you so far.
That's not limited to Spurs. Liverpool came 2nd and lost in a CL final. They spend what they need to spend to take the next step, and lo and behold, they win the CL and the Prem.
City in 10/11 beat us with that Crouch own goal to finish in the top four. They had good players in Zabaleta, Tevez, Dzeko, Kompany. Did they stand still like we did? No, they bought Aguero and Nasri and won the league.
Now obviously I'm not stupid, we don't have the Resources they had. But we could have done a hell of a lot better than we did in the summers of 17/18 (Sanchez and Aurier who still fail to convince) and 18/19 (no one - could have had Grealish/Tielemans), even 19/20 when we did spend (N'dombele. Lo Celso, Sessegnon) - N'dombele took a season to adjust, Lo Celso was ok but didn't score a single league goal in his first season and seems injury prone and Sess had virtually no impact. All this while losing Dembele, Vertonghen, Eriksen. This all happened mainly under the Management of Poch, and is what Mourinho has walked into. It takes more than one window, as good as Summer 20/21 seemed at the time, to start to fix that!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The advantage that other clubs who've strengthened and won things as a result have over us is that their existing players have retained their original standards.
In the last 2 years for varying reasons we've had Eriksen, Rose, Jan, Hugo, Toby, Winks and Dele all fall apart together and when you combine that with poor signings like Sissoko, Sanchez and Aurier its no surprise that we have gone backwards.
As I've previously stated the whole squad needs to be broken up and lets start again. I'm looking forward to Skipp in midfield next season now theres a change for the better already.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by PawlBawron (U1055)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 59 seconds ago
I think the overriding point here is that having a squad full of 'good' players with a couple of 'very good' players sprinkled in, no matter who the Manager is, will only get you so far.
That's not limited to Spurs. Liverpool came 2nd and lost in a CL final. They spend what they need to spend to take the next step, and lo and behold, they win the CL and the Prem.
City in 10/11 beat us with that Crouch own goal to finish in the top four. They had good players in Zabaleta, Tevez, Dzeko, Kompany. Did they stand still like we did? No, they bought Aguero and Nasri and won the league.
Now obviously I'm not stupid, we don't have the Resources they had. But we could have done a hell of a lot better than we did in the summers of 17/18 (Sanchez and Aurier who still fail to convince) and 18/19 (no one - could have had Grealish/Tielemans), even 19/20 when we did spend (N'dombele. Lo Celso, Sessegnon) - N'dombele took a season to adjust, Lo Celso was ok but didn't score a single league goal in his first season and seems injury prone and Sess had virtually no impact. All this while losing Dembele, Vertonghen, Eriksen. This all happened mainly under the Management of Poch, and is what Mourinho has walked into. It takes more than one window, as good as Summer 20/21 seemed at the time, to start to fix that!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The advantage that other clubs who've strengthened and won things as a result have over us is that their existing players have retained their original standards.
In the last 2 years for varying reasons we've had Eriksen, Rose, Jan, Hugo, Toby, Winks and Dele all fall apart together and when you combine that with poor signings like Sissoko, Sanchez and Aurier its no surprise that we have gone backwards.
As I've previously stated the whole squad needs to be broken up and lets start again. I'm looking forward to Skipp in midfield next season now theres a change for the better already.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd argue that the existing players kept their standards for as long as anyone could deem reasonably possible. Between 15/16 and 18/19, with barely any investment at all, pretty much the same group of players finished 3rd, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. They needed the investment that we saw in 2019 and 2020, in 2017 or 2018. As simple as that really!
posted on 22/3/21
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 17 minutes ago
You don't 'fluke' top 4. You don't really 'fluke' a run to a CL final as all knockouts are over 2 legs against the best opposition in the world. We had some good fortune along the way, sure, but we didn't fluke any of that.
For the record, I wasn't anti-Jose from day one, despite what some of his disciples here think. I was sceptical, sure, but I was hoping he would come back from his difficult United time a better manager.
From very early on, the signs for me weren't great. We scrapped any passing game and soon began hoofing the ball up to Kane, relying entirely on our talisman when in years gone by we coped with his injuries by playing as a team. Game upon we game we fewer possession. We stopped pressing. Patterns of play started disappearing and we retreated as a team to our own 18 yard box, for every game. The plan? Defend like we're a third tier side against Prem opposition in a cup game and punt it up to the two world class players we have. That was a Jose's 'masterclass', apparently. When we win it's down to individual brilliance and when we lose it's because those two had an off game.
It's continued like that for 18 months with no real progression, no team cohesion, noises about unrest, terrible style of play and above all worse results than Poch's, admittedly, poor final 6 months.
To see no reason why we're calling for Jose's head is frankly baffling. He's been here 18 months but we've regressed about 18 years since he's been here. I know this game is all about opinions and you're entitled to yours but as far as I'm concerned, you're just plain wrong.
I don't want to give Jose another penny to spend. Give him the rest of the season but then it's thanks but no thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent post.
The fluking it to a CL final always makes me laugh. We thrashed Dortmund, who were top of the Bundesliga, beat probably the greatest team in premier league history in the quarters then showed huge heart to beat a quality young Ajax team.
Under Jose in Europe we have been battered by Leipzig and humiliated by Zagreb. There is literally no chance we could 'fluke' a CL final now. Very little chance of even playing in the CL under jose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fantastic 2 posts here. Agree completely with it all. Jose has had the easiest draws possible in pretty much every single competition hes had with us- 2x FA cups, CL, Europa (look at our group and the 2 knockout teams bloody hell) and the League cup.
Dumped out of every competition pending Man City spanking us. Not to mention our league form is not good, its worse than Poch's was that got him the sack. This is the same Poch who had so much credit in the bank for "fluking" us to the CL final. (Side note - so disrespectful that is. And i see nobody say we had a poor mentality there). How Jose still has a job is not acceptable
posted on 22/3/21
comment by morespurs (U15748)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Troy'sTanguyTanganga (U6468)
posted 1 minute ago
When ever we have one okay result we have someone thinking Jose is doing a decent job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am torn on how well Jose is doing. We are not that badly placed in the league, despite everything and have a pop at a trophy too.
That is the pluses.
We surrendered too easily in some games and certain players were not given a proper chance to do well in the league, like Vinni, Tanganga and Rodon.
That's the downside of Jose regime
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well agree its not all bad we also look poorly coached and simply dont look like we getting the best out of most pf our players. There are alot of players that need to be moved on I just dont trust Jose to do the job of rebuilding the squad.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 40 seconds ago
Which of Jose's many rebuilding projects was it that has made you confident that he was the man for the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say he's ever managed a 'rebuild', but if you look throughout his career, many times he has taken over a club who had been underperforming in relative terms to that club, and made them successful in his time there if given the backing.
The problem lies there - the backing he will get here will be a lot less than he's been used to elsewhere, which will ultimately be his undoing, yet we as fans and as a club are expecting similar results that he has achieved elsewhere (title challenges, trophies, CL runs etc).
Chelsea gave him Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Madrid gave him Di Maria, Carvalho, Essien, Inter gave him Sneijder, Eto'o, Chelsea gave him Costa, Fabregas etc etc.
So far the best he's got from us is Hojbjerg and Reguilon, thrown in with the likes of Doherty, Winks, Sissoko. Is it really any wonder that he hasn't been able to stamp his mark on us yet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He's gone to top clubs, made them better straight away and then faaacked off after 3 years
There is nothing to suggest Jose can build a side - you've listed Doherty as an excuse for Jose but that was literally the player he wanted. That is his mindset - sign tall old functional players to help me win now.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by Ebeneezer (U1397)
posted 13 minutes ago
jose will come good
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Give it a rest Sandy
posted on 22/3/21
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 40 seconds ago
Which of Jose's many rebuilding projects was it that has made you confident that he was the man for the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say he's ever managed a 'rebuild', but if you look throughout his career, many times he has taken over a club who had been underperforming in relative terms to that club, and made them successful in his time there if given the backing.
The problem lies there - the backing he will get here will be a lot less than he's been used to elsewhere, which will ultimately be his undoing, yet we as fans and as a club are expecting similar results that he has achieved elsewhere (title challenges, trophies, CL runs etc).
Chelsea gave him Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Madrid gave him Di Maria, Carvalho, Essien, Inter gave him Sneijder, Eto'o, Chelsea gave him Costa, Fabregas etc etc.
So far the best he's got from us is Hojbjerg and Reguilon, thrown in with the likes of Doherty, Winks, Sissoko. Is it really any wonder that he hasn't been able to stamp his mark on us yet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He's gone to top clubs, made them better straight away and then faaacked off after 3 years
There is nothing to suggest Jose can build a side - you've listed Doherty as an excuse for Jose but that was literally the player he wanted. That is his mindset - sign tall old functional players to help me win now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wanted him because he saw him as the best budge option, and this is my point, while he's here, under Levy, he's always going to have to have the budget option.
Rodon is a budget Skriniar, even Hojbjerg was a budget option. I'm not denying he's been good, but if he was that good in the first place, we wouldn't have been in with a sniff because Bayern/City etc would be in for him.
The best we can hope for is budget options from smaller clubs like Hojbjerg, Rodon, Sessegnon, Alli, Eriksen or cast offs from bigger clubs/teams such as Reguilon, Lo Celso and Moura from PSG etc.
Liverpool have shown you can make a good team from these types of players - Robertson, Wijnaldum, Mane etc. But to truly get to the next level, you have to go out and sign the best you can, for more money than you're used to, like they did with Alisson and Van Dijk. We never made this step.
The one exception where we managed to sway a player that bigger clubs than us were genuinely interested in is N'Dombele, and he will be poached if we don't have a good season in 21/22.
posted on 22/3/21
I read what you say and all I see is more reasons why we should sack him
Why should we have a man in charge who straight up cannot compete without spending big? Sure it's going to he difficult for any manager in that situation but others are clearly have a better track record of building good sides on a small budget
posted on 22/3/21
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 40 seconds ago
Which of Jose's many rebuilding projects was it that has made you confident that he was the man for the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say he's ever managed a 'rebuild', but if you look throughout his career, many times he has taken over a club who had been underperforming in relative terms to that club, and made them successful in his time there if given the backing.
The problem lies there - the backing he will get here will be a lot less than he's been used to elsewhere, which will ultimately be his undoing, yet we as fans and as a club are expecting similar results that he has achieved elsewhere (title challenges, trophies, CL runs etc).
Chelsea gave him Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Madrid gave him Di Maria, Carvalho, Essien, Inter gave him Sneijder, Eto'o, Chelsea gave him Costa, Fabregas etc etc.
So far the best he's got from us is Hojbjerg and Reguilon, thrown in with the likes of Doherty, Winks, Sissoko. Is it really any wonder that he hasn't been able to stamp his mark on us yet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He's gone to top clubs, made them better straight away and then faaacked off after 3 years
There is nothing to suggest Jose can build a side - you've listed Doherty as an excuse for Jose but that was literally the player he wanted. That is his mindset - sign tall old functional players to help me win now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wanted him because he saw him as the best budge option, and this is my point, while he's here, under Levy, he's always going to have to have the budget option.
Rodon is a budget Skriniar, even Hojbjerg was a budget option. I'm not denying he's been good, but if he was that good in the first place, we wouldn't have been in with a sniff because Bayern/City etc would be in for him.
The best we can hope for is budget options from smaller clubs like Hojbjerg, Rodon, Sessegnon, Alli, Eriksen or cast offs from bigger clubs/teams such as Reguilon, Lo Celso and Moura from PSG etc.
Liverpool have shown you can make a good team from these types of players - Robertson, Wijnaldum, Mane etc. But to truly get to the next level, you have to go out and sign the best you can, for more money than you're used to, like they did with Alisson and Van Dijk. We never made this step.
The one exception where we managed to sway a player that bigger clubs than us were genuinely interested in is N'Dombele, and he will be poached if we don't have a good season in 21/22.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we give Jose world class players then he'll do better...
We're not signing VVD and Allison so he will have to work within the clubs means.
What in Jose's time here suggests to you he can coach the players to become a better team?
posted on 22/3/21
Leipzig spent 3m net in transfer fees this season and are challenging the European champions for the title
Other managers are a better fit for this job - this was obvious before we even hired Jose
posted on 22/3/21
I wanted Poch to stay put and be given more time but this has no bearing on my judgement of Jose.
At the moment I'm Jose out but I will fully judge come the end of the season. The reasons for this are:
1) I believe he has underachieved in his objectives so far. Below where we should be in the league, and barring the League Cup, out of all the other cups and competitions early (this season and last).
2) Poor football for the majority and seemingly little degree of consistency to say things have or are improving under him. Look at our recent record against top half clubs.
3) His record at previous jobs suggests he is past his best and that he sucks the life out of teams. When you combine this with the 2 things above then what hope does it really give you? I was never a fan of him coming in to begin with for this reason.
Obviously if there is a surprising turn around in form and we win the League Cup, finish top 4, and end on a high form wise with a good unbeaten/winning record then I may change my mind.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 40 seconds ago
Which of Jose's many rebuilding projects was it that has made you confident that he was the man for the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say he's ever managed a 'rebuild', but if you look throughout his career, many times he has taken over a club who had been underperforming in relative terms to that club, and made them successful in his time there if given the backing.
The problem lies there - the backing he will get here will be a lot less than he's been used to elsewhere, which will ultimately be his undoing, yet we as fans and as a club are expecting similar results that he has achieved elsewhere (title challenges, trophies, CL runs etc).
Chelsea gave him Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Madrid gave him Di Maria, Carvalho, Essien, Inter gave him Sneijder, Eto'o, Chelsea gave him Costa, Fabregas etc etc.
So far the best he's got from us is Hojbjerg and Reguilon, thrown in with the likes of Doherty, Winks, Sissoko. Is it really any wonder that he hasn't been able to stamp his mark on us yet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He's gone to top clubs, made them better straight away and then faaacked off after 3 years
There is nothing to suggest Jose can build a side - you've listed Doherty as an excuse for Jose but that was literally the player he wanted. That is his mindset - sign tall old functional players to help me win now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wanted him because he saw him as the best budge option, and this is my point, while he's here, under Levy, he's always going to have to have the budget option.
Rodon is a budget Skriniar, even Hojbjerg was a budget option. I'm not denying he's been good, but if he was that good in the first place, we wouldn't have been in with a sniff because Bayern/City etc would be in for him.
The best we can hope for is budget options from smaller clubs like Hojbjerg, Rodon, Sessegnon, Alli, Eriksen or cast offs from bigger clubs/teams such as Reguilon, Lo Celso and Moura from PSG etc.
Liverpool have shown you can make a good team from these types of players - Robertson, Wijnaldum, Mane etc. But to truly get to the next level, you have to go out and sign the best you can, for more money than you're used to, like they did with Alisson and Van Dijk. We never made this step.
The one exception where we managed to sway a player that bigger clubs than us were genuinely interested in is N'Dombele, and he will be poached if we don't have a good season in 21/22.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we give Jose world class players then he'll do better...
We're not signing VVD and Allison so he will have to work within the clubs means.
What in Jose's time here suggests to you he can coach the players to become a better team?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly, we're not, but he's still getting scrutinised as if we're a team who can and has signed those players.
We as fans are basically expecting of him exactly what Real Madrid, Chelsea (twice) and Man Utd fans were, are we not? Title challenges? Cup wins?
That to me is what he was brought here to do - he can't do it without the tools. He's proven that he can with them, time and time again.
Your question about him coaching the players to become a better team - I don't think he can. Not that he doesn't have his faults, but I don't think the players have that potential, even if some are in his 'mould'. As I stated earlier, it would be like asking Pep to take 'good' but not 'great' players who have the qualities that he likes in a player (passing, dribbling), off the top of my head players such as Lallana, Winks, Eze, Buendia and and making them play like Silva, Gundogan, Bernardo etc.
This to me is what Mourinho is working with in relative terms, so we can't expect the same output until we get the players he wants, as Pep and Klopp did.
posted on 22/3/21
Some good comments from Spurtle, Chris, fridge and Anne.
I would also like to emphasise regarding Jose and youth that using one or two young players to have one or two debut’s really means nothing. Properly blooding and improving youth players means genuinely integrating them into the squad and giving them a real platform to push on from. Tanganga is the only player this is applicable for.
posted on 22/3/21
I think everyone's missing the point about not providing Jose with the best players. The very fact that he can't get the best players is one reason why he was the wrong appointment. That's our model. We can't afford to get the very best players so we need someone that has good coaching on their CV. A progressive type, like Poch, who can make a team greater than the sum of their parts.
Your criticisms of the board for not giving Jose billions to blow are the exact reason why I think Nagelsmann is the right choice. He can take the players within our budget and make them better players. He fits our model. Asking Levy to splash to cash for Jose is admitting he made the wrong appointment. Square pegs, round holes. Nothing against him personally but he's not right for us.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by SpursBoy101 (U21819)
posted 1 hour, 42 minutes ago
comment by Christo-pherk off mourinho (U20930)
posted 40 seconds ago
Which of Jose's many rebuilding projects was it that has made you confident that he was the man for the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't say he's ever managed a 'rebuild', but if you look throughout his career, many times he has taken over a club who had been underperforming in relative terms to that club, and made them successful in his time there if given the backing.
The problem lies there - the backing he will get here will be a lot less than he's been used to elsewhere, which will ultimately be his undoing, yet we as fans and as a club are expecting similar results that he has achieved elsewhere (title challenges, trophies, CL runs etc).
Chelsea gave him Robben, Drogba, Carvalho, Essien, Madrid gave him Di Maria, Carvalho, Essien, Inter gave him Sneijder, Eto'o, Chelsea gave him Costa, Fabregas etc etc.
So far the best he's got from us is Hojbjerg and Reguilon, thrown in with the likes of Doherty, Winks, Sissoko. Is it really any wonder that he hasn't been able to stamp his mark on us yet?
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He's gone to top clubs, made them better straight away and then faaacked off after 3 years
There is nothing to suggest Jose can build a side - you've listed Doherty as an excuse for Jose but that was literally the player he wanted. That is his mindset - sign tall old functional players to help me win now.
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He wanted him because he saw him as the best budge option, and this is my point, while he's here, under Levy, he's always going to have to have the budget option.
Rodon is a budget Skriniar, even Hojbjerg was a budget option. I'm not denying he's been good, but if he was that good in the first place, we wouldn't have been in with a sniff because Bayern/City etc would be in for him.
The best we can hope for is budget options from smaller clubs like Hojbjerg, Rodon, Sessegnon, Alli, Eriksen or cast offs from bigger clubs/teams such as Reguilon, Lo Celso and Moura from PSG etc.
Liverpool have shown you can make a good team from these types of players - Robertson, Wijnaldum, Mane etc. But to truly get to the next level, you have to go out and sign the best you can, for more money than you're used to, like they did with Alisson and Van Dijk. We never made this step.
The one exception where we managed to sway a player that bigger clubs than us were genuinely interested in is N'Dombele, and he will be poached if we don't have a good season in 21/22.
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So you're saying if we give Jose world class players then he'll do better...
We're not signing VVD and Allison so he will have to work within the clubs means.
What in Jose's time here suggests to you he can coach the players to become a better team?
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Exactly, we're not, but he's still getting scrutinised as if we're a team who can and has signed those players.
We as fans are basically expecting of him exactly what Real Madrid, Chelsea (twice) and Man Utd fans were, are we not? Title challenges? Cup wins?
That to me is what he was brought here to do - he can't do it without the tools. He's proven that he can with them, time and time again.
Your question about him coaching the players to become a better team - I don't think he can. Not that he doesn't have his faults, but I don't think the players have that potential, even if some are in his 'mould'. As I stated earlier, it would be like asking Pep to take 'good' but not 'great' players who have the qualities that he likes in a player (passing, dribbling), off the top of my head players such as Lallana, Winks, Eze, Buendia and and making them play like Silva, Gundogan, Bernardo etc.
This to me is what Mourinho is working with in relative terms, so we can't expect the same output until we get the players he wants, as Pep and Klopp did.
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Jose want get the players he wants. Levy should get a manager who can work within his budget.
posted on 22/3/21
Imo our squad is on par with United and chelsea so that's the benchmark for me.
At the start of the season both clubs were managed by inexperienced and quite frankly poor managers for this level.
United are currently 9 points above us and got through much tougher Europa league draws.
Chelsea sacked their incompetent manager (like we should have) and are unbeaten since hiring a quality manager, brushing Atletico aside to get to the CL quarters.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 4 minutes ago
I think everyone's missing the point about not providing Jose with the best players. The very fact that he can't get the best players is one reason why he was the wrong appointment. That's our model. We can't afford to get the very best players so we need someone that has good coaching on their CV. A progressive type, like Poch, who can make a team greater than the sum of their parts.
Your criticisms of the board for not giving Jose billions to blow are the exact reason why I think Nagelsmann is the right choice. He can take the players within our budget and make them better players. He fits our model. Asking Levy to splash to cash for Jose is admitting he made the wrong appointment. Square pegs, round holes. Nothing against him personally but he's not right for us.
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At the time of his appointment the model of the club had changed in terms of finance. The death star, I mean stadium was fully operational. Gigs, fights as well as NFL matches were being booked. Income was going to increase to help finance the playing squad as well as paying off stadium debt. At that time he was the right fit as the model of the club was on the cusp of changing.
Then Covid came and took the model back to the old WHL in terms of finance which is where we are now.
We are going to struggle to break even I think? I wonder how much the Cinch deal is worth? Details have not been disclosed. But you are right. Right now we are back to a break even model. Problem is getting rid of Jose will cost in excess of £20m. Can we really afford it?
Not that I want to anyway. He seems to be on the right track after 3 quarters of the season in terms of identfying which players he can trust.
I don't think we will make top 4 but I would like him oversea the rebuild. A new manager may stick with the same rats. Do we want to risk that? Jose IN.
posted on 22/3/21
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 9 minutes ago
Imo our squad is on par with United and chelsea so that's the benchmark for me.
At the start of the season both clubs were managed by inexperienced and quite frankly poor managers for this level.
United are currently 9 points above us and got through much tougher Europa league draws.
Chelsea sacked their incompetent manager (like we should have) and are unbeaten since hiring a quality manager, brushing Atletico aside to get to the CL quarters.
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Both teams have better defences than us and their squad players are much better too. We have Aurier, Doherty, Davies, Dier , Sissoko and Winks. None would get anywhere near Utd or Chelsea squads.
To say they are on par is misleading.
posted on 22/3/21
I found it embarrassing for ourselves the way Leicester convincingly beat United in a big cup tie in the later rounds yesterday. All this past decade while we've been a mostly top 4 team we always folded in the later rounds to opposition like that.
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