comment by 50 trust the process (U1147)
posted 5 minutes ago
Allowing Italy the possession wasn’t the issue IMO. It was sitting too deep and not being aggressive at all for counter attack opportunities. England just didn’t want to push up when they had chances. That gave momentum to them and it was over once that happened.
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This. And having another player with pace in the front three would have given us much more of a threat on the break.
comment by 50 trust the process (U1147)
posted 6 minutes ago
Allowing Italy the possession wasn’t the issue IMO. It was sitting too deep and not being aggressive at all for counter attack opportunities. England just didn’t want to push up when they had chances. That gave momentum to them and it was over once that happened.
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we had options on the bench...we seemed reticent to use them..too focussed on ET & pens
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Bookies couldn't separate the teams...ET was inevitable...penalties probable, so I guess Southgate was always going to budget for it
Unfortunately it seems like he got the decisive decisions wrong in the biggest of games. Not just Southgate, but his backroom team as well. The penalty takers and the 2nd half performances especially were poor judgement in my opinion of the task at hand.
Credit to everyone involved with England though, players, manager, staff etc. It has been a wonderful tournament for us despite the disappointment at the end.
We did in the CL final against Spurs... as I have already said. .Big games do funny things to players mentality. If you tihnk Southgate gave the instruction to shut up shot after 2 mins, you're insane.
---
So did someone tell our players to not press Italy at all and not bother making any runs in behind?
Who's idea was that?
Even maguire was getting p!ssed off that nobody was facking moving
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Glazers_Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 minute ago
Look back at the last 20-30 years of international football tournaments and you'll see that most of the ones that haven't been won by sumptuously talented teams were won by teams that focused on being very hard to break down. You don't often get champagne football in international football because players have about a 20th of the time training together to work on set patterns of play and to read each others' games. If Southgate could have picked a midfield consisting of players of the quality of Verratti and Jorginho, he probably would have done. You could argue for Bellingham but it's probably just a bit too early for him.
We were a penalty shootout lottery away from winning the tournament, and even in defeat it's England's greatest achievement since 1966, and people are acting like Italy were there for the taking and Southgate's a joker. Yes, maybe in retrospect maybe there were missed opportunities to change the game against a talented, committed and experienced Italy side. But Southgate doesn't need to take any lectures from an armchair fan whose track record includes having to run away from the forum for six months out of embarrassment when his own views were quoted back to him.
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What an absolutely awful take on that game. Clueless.
We had 34% of the ball. It was men Vs boys down to our manager.
You're wrong....as usual
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Melts just agreed with me. He's usually bang on. The warning signs were there early doors.
We tried to defend a 1 nil lead and got what we deserved. Out passed. Out shot.
Why play that way when we are useless at pens? Sitting back all game only made pens even more likely. Baffling decision by a poor coach.
Playing a final at our home stadium and plays 8 defensive players. Sums up the mentality of him. Wouldn't want him anywhere near the Utd job.
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 minute ago
Bookies couldn't separate the teams...ET was inevitable...penalties probable, so I guess Southgate was always going to budget for it
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It was a very even game but two sides that are probably about as good as each other as well.
If they die another penalty shootout tonight, we would probably win 3-2 instead of the Italians. Just that night that didn't go our way really.
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 2 minutes ago
We did in the CL final against Spurs... as I have already said. .Big games do funny things to players mentality. If you tihnk Southgate gave the instruction to shut up shot after 2 mins, you're insane.
---
So did someone tell our players to not press Italy at all and not bother making any runs in behind?
Who's idea was that?
Even maguire was getting p!ssed off that nobody was facking moving
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. It comes from the coach. He cost us our best chance for years due to be a coward.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
Bookies couldn't separate the teams...ET was inevitable...penalties probable, so I guess Southgate was always going to budget for it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Before the game yes but I thought we were quite fortunate Italy didn’t win in normal time tbh.
It’s more big game experience. I am concerned that was a copy of the Croatia game though (or even the Netherlands game in the nations cup) and we don’t seem to be improving in terms of how to play after taking an early lead in these games. It needed a change in system far sooner, the team wasn’t set up to play the type of football needed after we scored.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
What an absolutely awful take on that game. Clueless.
We had 34% of the ball. It was men Vs boys down to our manager.
You're wrong....as usual
----------------------------------------------------------------
Do you know how much of the ball Italy had against Spain in their semi-final, which was universally regarded as a classic game between two fine teams and a fascinating tactical battle? I'll tell you: it was 35%. Do you recall which team had the lion's share of the ball in all those late period Wenger vs Fergie games where we regularly beat them? It's almost as though possession stats don't give us a full picture of the game, isn't it?
I'm not claiming that England were fantastic last night, but it's a pretty common pattern that when a team takes the lead against a very good attacking team, the pattern of the game shifts to the very good attacking team pushing for an equaliser, and the other team trying to absorb the pressure and hopefully hit them on the break. In the first half, we scored, allowed Italy possession in the middle third, and defended comfortably. They had much more of the ball but they weren't controlling the game. In the second half, they made personnel changes and managed to pin back our wing backs and got their creative players on the ball in much more dangerous areas, and we really struggled to break out on turnovers. They didn't succeed in creating countless clear-cut chances, but their goal was reflective of their dominance. After the equaliser, they played with much less intensity, because it wasn't necessary to do so, and the possession stats from then till the end of the game would look less imbalanced. England began to attack more and I'd say the game was more even, though neither side looked hugely dangerous from then on.
No-one has mentioned the filthy tactics from the Italians either...which we should expect...& fair play they took liberties, most of which were punished
But Jorginho should have been red carded for the tackle on Grealish...& if anyone can give me a reason why he wasn't, i'd be grateful
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Couldn't believe Jorginho missed his pen either...thought that was an absolute banker
comment by Glazers_Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 2 minutes ago
We did in the CL final against Spurs... as I have already said. .Big games do funny things to players mentality. If you tihnk Southgate gave the instruction to shut up shot after 2 mins, you're insane.
---
So did someone tell our players to not press Italy at all and not bother making any runs in behind?
Who's idea was that?
Even maguire was getting p!ssed off that nobody was facking moving
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. It comes from the coach. He cost us our best chance for years due to be a coward.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's just take a moment to appreciate the fact that the guy who ran away from an anonymous forum for half a year because he found it humiliating that someone dug up a historic comment where he was arguing the opposite of his present position is calling Gareth Southgate a 'coward' of all things.
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 20 minutes ago
Might as well have not turned up for the pens if we put boys in and specialist bottlers
-
All three of them chose to step up when others shirked. Got more bottle than any of you lot having a go.
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indeed they did...& all credit to them...but Southgate has no right allowing this predicament to be so...there are three or four other more seasoned pros' there who should have stepped up...ok they might have missed, but it was their time....it wasn't two lads who are barely out of school's time
and Rashford...sorry, irrespective of all the school dinner stuff, and stepping up...if you step up you have to put your best though process into it.....you can't try to mug off a world class keeper with the eyes whilst not looking at the fackin ball
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tbf the only way you can blame Southgate for that is if the senior players gave him a decision to make by volunteering. Of course the optimism of youth meant Saka would volunteer - but I'm guessing the others didn't
Turns out the defensive football did cost us at the most crucial stage in the end then.
I don’t think even playing defensive football cost us, it was that he needed to make the change sooner to enable us to keep playing defensive football in a controlled manner. The second half up to when they scored was a painful watch.
I think it was personally, we were far too deep far too early. We had 11 players behind the ball about 40 metres from our goal for a considerable period and I don't even think we hit the hour mark, that's too deep for that stage of the game.
There was no outball that was the issue at that point. It's all well and good making changes, but bringing players with pace to counter, like Saka, won't change anything when we are so far away from their goal. Grealish probably should have come on earlier really if we were going to make any changes.
I'd love to know what Southgate's thinking on subs is....left it far too late last night, the boys he put on for the pens should have at least hat 15 minutes to get a feel for the game
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Southgate got it badly wrong.
Page 2 of 4
posted on 12/7/21
comment by 50 trust the process (U1147)
posted 5 minutes ago
Allowing Italy the possession wasn’t the issue IMO. It was sitting too deep and not being aggressive at all for counter attack opportunities. England just didn’t want to push up when they had chances. That gave momentum to them and it was over once that happened.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This. And having another player with pace in the front three would have given us much more of a threat on the break.
posted on 12/7/21
comment by 50 trust the process (U1147)
posted 6 minutes ago
Allowing Italy the possession wasn’t the issue IMO. It was sitting too deep and not being aggressive at all for counter attack opportunities. England just didn’t want to push up when they had chances. That gave momentum to them and it was over once that happened.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
we had options on the bench...we seemed reticent to use them..too focussed on ET & pens
posted on 12/7/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/7/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/7/21
Bookies couldn't separate the teams...ET was inevitable...penalties probable, so I guess Southgate was always going to budget for it
posted on 12/7/21
Unfortunately it seems like he got the decisive decisions wrong in the biggest of games. Not just Southgate, but his backroom team as well. The penalty takers and the 2nd half performances especially were poor judgement in my opinion of the task at hand.
Credit to everyone involved with England though, players, manager, staff etc. It has been a wonderful tournament for us despite the disappointment at the end.
posted on 12/7/21
We did in the CL final against Spurs... as I have already said. .Big games do funny things to players mentality. If you tihnk Southgate gave the instruction to shut up shot after 2 mins, you're insane.
---
So did someone tell our players to not press Italy at all and not bother making any runs in behind?
Who's idea was that?
Even maguire was getting p!ssed off that nobody was facking moving
posted on 12/7/21
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Glazers_Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 minute ago
Look back at the last 20-30 years of international football tournaments and you'll see that most of the ones that haven't been won by sumptuously talented teams were won by teams that focused on being very hard to break down. You don't often get champagne football in international football because players have about a 20th of the time training together to work on set patterns of play and to read each others' games. If Southgate could have picked a midfield consisting of players of the quality of Verratti and Jorginho, he probably would have done. You could argue for Bellingham but it's probably just a bit too early for him.
We were a penalty shootout lottery away from winning the tournament, and even in defeat it's England's greatest achievement since 1966, and people are acting like Italy were there for the taking and Southgate's a joker. Yes, maybe in retrospect maybe there were missed opportunities to change the game against a talented, committed and experienced Italy side. But Southgate doesn't need to take any lectures from an armchair fan whose track record includes having to run away from the forum for six months out of embarrassment when his own views were quoted back to him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What an absolutely awful take on that game. Clueless.
We had 34% of the ball. It was men Vs boys down to our manager.
You're wrong....as usual
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Melts just agreed with me. He's usually bang on. The warning signs were there early doors.
We tried to defend a 1 nil lead and got what we deserved. Out passed. Out shot.
Why play that way when we are useless at pens? Sitting back all game only made pens even more likely. Baffling decision by a poor coach.
Playing a final at our home stadium and plays 8 defensive players. Sums up the mentality of him. Wouldn't want him anywhere near the Utd job.
posted on 12/7/21
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 minute ago
Bookies couldn't separate the teams...ET was inevitable...penalties probable, so I guess Southgate was always going to budget for it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was a very even game but two sides that are probably about as good as each other as well.
If they die another penalty shootout tonight, we would probably win 3-2 instead of the Italians. Just that night that didn't go our way really.
posted on 12/7/21
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 2 minutes ago
We did in the CL final against Spurs... as I have already said. .Big games do funny things to players mentality. If you tihnk Southgate gave the instruction to shut up shot after 2 mins, you're insane.
---
So did someone tell our players to not press Italy at all and not bother making any runs in behind?
Who's idea was that?
Even maguire was getting p!ssed off that nobody was facking moving
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. It comes from the coach. He cost us our best chance for years due to be a coward.
posted on 12/7/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/7/21
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
Bookies couldn't separate the teams...ET was inevitable...penalties probable, so I guess Southgate was always going to budget for it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Before the game yes but I thought we were quite fortunate Italy didn’t win in normal time tbh.
It’s more big game experience. I am concerned that was a copy of the Croatia game though (or even the Netherlands game in the nations cup) and we don’t seem to be improving in terms of how to play after taking an early lead in these games. It needed a change in system far sooner, the team wasn’t set up to play the type of football needed after we scored.
posted on 12/7/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/7/21
What an absolutely awful take on that game. Clueless.
We had 34% of the ball. It was men Vs boys down to our manager.
You're wrong....as usual
----------------------------------------------------------------
Do you know how much of the ball Italy had against Spain in their semi-final, which was universally regarded as a classic game between two fine teams and a fascinating tactical battle? I'll tell you: it was 35%. Do you recall which team had the lion's share of the ball in all those late period Wenger vs Fergie games where we regularly beat them? It's almost as though possession stats don't give us a full picture of the game, isn't it?
I'm not claiming that England were fantastic last night, but it's a pretty common pattern that when a team takes the lead against a very good attacking team, the pattern of the game shifts to the very good attacking team pushing for an equaliser, and the other team trying to absorb the pressure and hopefully hit them on the break. In the first half, we scored, allowed Italy possession in the middle third, and defended comfortably. They had much more of the ball but they weren't controlling the game. In the second half, they made personnel changes and managed to pin back our wing backs and got their creative players on the ball in much more dangerous areas, and we really struggled to break out on turnovers. They didn't succeed in creating countless clear-cut chances, but their goal was reflective of their dominance. After the equaliser, they played with much less intensity, because it wasn't necessary to do so, and the possession stats from then till the end of the game would look less imbalanced. England began to attack more and I'd say the game was more even, though neither side looked hugely dangerous from then on.
posted on 12/7/21
No-one has mentioned the filthy tactics from the Italians either...which we should expect...& fair play they took liberties, most of which were punished
But Jorginho should have been red carded for the tackle on Grealish...& if anyone can give me a reason why he wasn't, i'd be grateful
posted on 12/7/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/7/21
Couldn't believe Jorginho missed his pen either...thought that was an absolute banker
posted on 12/7/21
comment by Glazers_Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by GregOle (U1192)
posted 2 minutes ago
We did in the CL final against Spurs... as I have already said. .Big games do funny things to players mentality. If you tihnk Southgate gave the instruction to shut up shot after 2 mins, you're insane.
---
So did someone tell our players to not press Italy at all and not bother making any runs in behind?
Who's idea was that?
Even maguire was getting p!ssed off that nobody was facking moving
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. It comes from the coach. He cost us our best chance for years due to be a coward.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's just take a moment to appreciate the fact that the guy who ran away from an anonymous forum for half a year because he found it humiliating that someone dug up a historic comment where he was arguing the opposite of his present position is calling Gareth Southgate a 'coward' of all things.
posted on 12/7/21
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 20 minutes ago
Might as well have not turned up for the pens if we put boys in and specialist bottlers
-
All three of them chose to step up when others shirked. Got more bottle than any of you lot having a go.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
indeed they did...& all credit to them...but Southgate has no right allowing this predicament to be so...there are three or four other more seasoned pros' there who should have stepped up...ok they might have missed, but it was their time....it wasn't two lads who are barely out of school's time
and Rashford...sorry, irrespective of all the school dinner stuff, and stepping up...if you step up you have to put your best though process into it.....you can't try to mug off a world class keeper with the eyes whilst not looking at the fackin ball
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tbf the only way you can blame Southgate for that is if the senior players gave him a decision to make by volunteering. Of course the optimism of youth meant Saka would volunteer - but I'm guessing the others didn't
posted on 12/7/21
posted on 12/7/21
Turns out the defensive football did cost us at the most crucial stage in the end then.
posted on 12/7/21
I don’t think even playing defensive football cost us, it was that he needed to make the change sooner to enable us to keep playing defensive football in a controlled manner. The second half up to when they scored was a painful watch.
posted on 12/7/21
I think it was personally, we were far too deep far too early. We had 11 players behind the ball about 40 metres from our goal for a considerable period and I don't even think we hit the hour mark, that's too deep for that stage of the game.
There was no outball that was the issue at that point. It's all well and good making changes, but bringing players with pace to counter, like Saka, won't change anything when we are so far away from their goal. Grealish probably should have come on earlier really if we were going to make any changes.
posted on 12/7/21
I'd love to know what Southgate's thinking on subs is....left it far too late last night, the boys he put on for the pens should have at least hat 15 minutes to get a feel for the game
posted on 12/7/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Page 2 of 4