Love that that’s in the Mail

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
Slightly tangential but I stumbled across this piece of AI generated patriotic art while tumbling down the rabbit hole of England kit Twitter. The comments mocking it gave me a chortle.

https://twitter.com/The_Paris_Angel/status/1771176207637242112
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Brilliant. Love the fact there's actually a baseball on the floor too.

Tbh I find that offensive that they’ve used facking baseball rather than cricket.

comment by Cinciwolf-----JA606 NFL fantasy champ 2023 (U11551)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by Classemiro (U5125)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 29 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 4 minutes ago
comment by English Super Cup Winners 2023 (U22980)
posted 2 minutes ago
The white and red is traditional and should be left alone
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Should everything that's traditional be left alone? How about the droit du seigneur? Female genital mutilation? Execution of children suspected of thieving?
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Comparing a flag to FGM and execution of children? Christ almighty RR
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That's not what RR did. Try and understand better.
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Indeed. I was illustrating the point with very clear-cut examples (selected because I felt confident the OP would agree with me about) that arguing "but it's traditional" is not a sufficient and inherent justification for opposing change.
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If your point had merit then surely it would have been better to choose other traditions which have been changed which were not obviously wrong, evil and disgusting.
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who gets to decide which traditions get changed though? (not the obvious heinous ones)
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The FA does in this instance. I think the hefty price tag will likely be a bigger factor for most. Like Tamwolf said, it will certainly receive a lot of publicity, yet to see if that will have a positive or negative effect on shirt sales.
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To be fair there's many people in the world that find England, the English, English traditions and English symbolism wrong, evil and disgusting. Some of them even live in England.

Just saying.
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Not sure that is entirely accurate. More a British thing than an English thing. England does get tarred with that brush more than say Scotland but it was a British empire not an English one.
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Oh absolutely in respect of the more distant past though over the last 50 or so years and the information age and devolved government people are more clearly seeing the differing cultural environments, the subsuming of their countries, the alarming assumptions of English / British synonymousness, the inability to escape the gravitational drag of the larger 'partner' - it is why most say they are Welsh / Scottish / Irish outside of a few nutters in NI and Glasgow that really are flag sha99ers.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 (U2462)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
Tory politicians jumping on the bandwagon to decry the desecration of a national flag.

Also Tory politicians: https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1771204078678262246
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https://x.com/bee_thomas26/status/1771161641398218935?s=20

The Tories, including their leader, kept sharing this here too.
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Yeah, but it seems to me reasonable to be ultrasensitive about perceived disrespect toward flags representing nationalism that votes for you, while openly mocking flags associated with a nationalism that loathes everything you stand for. Right?
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Absolutely!

Anyway, there's suddenly a business opportunity for some entrepreneurs to buy 50,000 embroidered ST George's crosses at 30p each and offer to 'upgrade' people's shirts for £10 a pop for 60s on a sewing machine. Gammons will queue up for that nonsense.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 18 minutes ago
Slightly tangential but I stumbled across this piece of AI generated patriotic art while tumbling down the rabbit hole of England kit Twitter. The comments mocking it gave me a chortle.

https://twitter.com/The_Paris_Angel/status/1771176207637242112
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https://x.com/willriley100/status/1771201875796176927?s=20

This comment

comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 (U2462)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 18 minutes ago
Slightly tangential but I stumbled across this piece of AI generated patriotic art while tumbling down the rabbit hole of England kit Twitter. The comments mocking it gave me a chortle.

https://twitter.com/The_Paris_Angel/status/1771176207637242112
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https://x.com/willriley100/status/1771201875796176927?s=20

This comment
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The anti English crowd going strong I see.

comment by The Mainoo Man (U23147)
posted 1 minute ago
The anti English crowd going strong I see.
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comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 (U2462)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 18 minutes ago
Slightly tangential but I stumbled across this piece of AI generated patriotic art while tumbling down the rabbit hole of England kit Twitter. The comments mocking it gave me a chortle.

https://twitter.com/The_Paris_Angel/status/1771176207637242112
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://x.com/willriley100/status/1771201875796176927?s=20

This comment
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comment by Robbing Hoody - I taught Szoboszlai how to cushion half volleys (U6374)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by The Mainoo Man (U23147)
posted 1 minute ago
The anti English crowd going strong I see.
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Don't tell me. Not English. Scouse.

comment by The Mainoo Man (U23147)
posted 3 minutes ago
The anti English crowd going strong I see.
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Who is being anti-English?

RDD comes back in all sorts of guises. Each time there's a particular hobbyhorse, which often contradicts the views of a previous iteration. But he's always sincerely committed to the old racism.

We can predict what his take would be if he were on this thread with us today.

comment by The Mainoo Man (U23147)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - I taught Szoboszlai how to cushion half volleys (U6374)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by The Mainoo Man (U23147)
posted 1 minute ago
The anti English crowd going strong I see.
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Don't tell me. Not English. Scouse.
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No, I’m very much English, not that Cinci would agree. I’m also not a moron, so me not caring about a single colour on a tiny little vase in a football shirt doesn’t bother me at all. I mean why would it? You’d have to be an utter chode and sub-normal to get upset at such things surely?

Vase? Badge

comment by The Mainoo Man (U23147)
posted 12 minutes ago
The anti English crowd going strong I see.
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RDD are you looking to get banned again?

I genuinely can’t work out how not giving a flying fvck about a Nike strip that was released last year makes me anti-English

It’s such a weird take

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 hours, 12 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 34 minutes ago
SatNav and it's fine to have the discussion you propose, in addition to me making - which I thought I was doing in passing - the simple point that an appeal to tradition was an insufficient argument.

What I would add to your post above:

I accept that some people find what they see as arbitrary change unsettling, and I don't want to denigrate those who find value and belonging in traditions and symbols. I do think we need to be aware of how often in the history of just about every country malign forces have sought to harness those natural human feelings not just to secure popular consent for terrible acts, but to distract attention away from material reality, economic injustice, etc. And in the context of England today, I think it's hard to deny that the political right has made a concerted effort to mobilise traditional symbolism and rile the population at perceived slights against it, in order to advance their political agenda. We have seen this in the way we suddenly got more and more flags in the background when politicians did TV interviews. We've seen it in the way blue passports and imperial measurements quite absurdly became significant talking points in a referendum with giant constitutional and economic implications. We see it in the annual sport of shaming any public figure who forgot to wear their Remembrance Poppy. Symbols have emotional importance, but it's possible to magnify their importance by making a song and dance about them, and by screeching about perceived insults against them.

As to your "undeniable backlash against this country’s history, flags, historical figures", I would frame that slightly differently. Firstly, I think it's accurate to say that throughout history (looking back to the Peterloo massacre and beyond) the symbols and status of the country, as largely defined by the ruling classes, have been contentious. So it's useful to remind ourselves that we're not talking about a world in which we had stable, uncontested traditions and identities until about ten years ago a bunch of people with piercings came along and started challenging everything. Secondly, I'd argue that the same right-wing discourse that currently harnesses symbols such as the flag, the monarch's portrait, the blue passport, etc. has made quite a concerted effort to caricature strands of thought and campaigns as a 'backlash' against our history and identity. Now, of course you can find examples of crass self-hatred. However, the point of this anti-woke rhetoric isn't to moderate progressive ideas, but to define self-critical and reforming impulses *in general* as sneering hatred of the country. For instance, there was a very loud campaign that aimed to take back control of the National Trust from a leadership which had decided to acknowledge the role of slavery in originally financing some of its properties. It turned out that this supposedly grassroots organisation was generously funded by an opaque think-tank, and in the event the (small-c conservative) membership of the trust rejected its alternative candidates. The National Trust wasn't proposing to tear down country houses or to stop celebrating our national heritage, but to acknowledge a more complex truth about our history. I think that's all a lot of us on the left side of politics want: a more honest, rounded view of what our country is and has been: a more self-critical view that better equips us to create a more just society today. I don't think it makes us stronger if we are unable to tolerate anything other than a purely celebratory self-image, and one which requires forgetting parts of history and making certain truths taboo.

So yes, there is (always) a tendency to challenge traditions and symbols. Sometimes that goes far. But there's also a politically motivated backlash against this tendency.
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There’s the old RR that we know and love.

I will give this its due attention later when I have some more free time.
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I understand that this was your intention, I just think that it could have been made without such negative comparators. No such thing as ‘in passing’ on here bro 😂

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say that the political right pounce, fuel and opportunistically use these matters to whip up support. It is also just as fair to say that the political left do the same but for their purposes; it’s the same old political tug of war.

Personally, instead of say letting the Tommy Robinson types take ownership of things like the England flag, I think that others should own it themselves.

I think it is both for halting progressive change and whip up support.

I think the main issue that some of us have with the desire from the left to have a more honest, rounded view is that we seldom hear any of the positives from the left and it just comes across and country-bashing. Now, no doubt some will say ‘ah but we get all the positives rammed down our throats at school’ that may be true but what I’m more interested in is which approach creates a more positive and unified society? Perhaps a bit of both. But where we seem to be now is one side saying all the positives and the other saying all the negatives; hence the clashing.

For example, what positives woudl you highlight of England/Britain?

As for negatives I will say, our involvement in slavery clearly was participation in an abhorrent practice one which we benefitted greatly from. Colonialism and Empire also took advantage of many nations and their wealth again for our own benefit and our football for the most part have voted people to death.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/iceland-hot-cross-buns-tick-b2516458.html

Now this makes me proud to be English.

The issue for me also is the conflation of people who genuinely query why such changes are made with feather-spitting hardcore people.

Furthermore, whilst it may be a design harming back to some training kit from the 1960s, if you believe that, but I think the FA also stated that it’s for unity & inclusivity. If that’s the case then they’re doing for a political point much as with BLM / LGBTQ. A lot of people think that sport shouldn’t get involved with politics. Similar debates were had with Ukraine colours vs Israeli colours after 7 October

Voted = bored

People's parents/grandparents fought wars where George Crosses were awarded for bravery.

+++++

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 6 minutes ago
The issue for me also is the conflation of people who genuinely query why such changes are made with feather-spitting hardcore people.

Furthermore, whilst it may be a design harming back to some training kit from the 1960s, if you believe that, but I think the FA also stated that it’s for unity & inclusivity. If that’s the case then they’re doing for a political point much as with BLM / LGBTQ. A lot of people think that sport shouldn’t get involved with politics. Similar debates were had with Ukraine colours vs Israeli colours after 7 October
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I'm all for making sports (or anything for that matter) inclusive, and I think we still have a long way to go in that respect for all people to feel welcome with who they are at football. Rainbow armbands for example are 100% correct. I just question whether changing a flag is cool, regardless of how inconspicuous it is... it's quite radical even if there are a handful of instances where its happened before. I guess that's why it's got so many people talking! I still think it's wrong.

comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 26 minutes ago
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/iceland-hot-cross-buns-tick-b2516458.html

Now this makes me proud to be English.
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Imagine being proud of selling bakery goods laden with parasites!