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If we look at our fixtures for the new boss

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posted on 10/11/24

comment by It’s time for some Lancashire hotPote, Ruben (U17054)
posted 43 minutes ago
People need to forget about getting CL this season.

We don’t have the players to play Amorim’s system, we really don’t, and he’s going to completely change the way we play football.

It’ll be an absolute miracle if we get CL football.
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Don’t you think he’ll be somewhat pragmatic whem coming into a new club, though? My understanding is that he did just that with Sporting and they were playing quite differently then to what they do now. I’ve seen their first title winning team described as a lot more pragmatic than his current side.

posted on 10/11/24

comment by Ruben The King Amorim Tim Tagi Dim (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by It’s time for some Lancashire hotPote, Ruben (U17054)
posted 43 minutes ago
People need to forget about getting CL this season.

We don’t have the players to play Amorim’s system, we really don’t, and he’s going to completely change the way we play football.

It’ll be an absolute miracle if we get CL football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don’t you think he’ll be somewhat pragmatic whem coming into a new club, though? My understanding is that he did just that with Sporting and they were playing quite differently then to what they do now. I’ve seen their first title winning team described as a lot more pragmatic than his current side.
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Will still either have to shift us to a 3-4-2-1 or enter into completely uncharted territory - although he’s made minor adjustments to the setup, he’s never really used any other system, even at his previous clubs.

How he’s used (and uses) the wingbacks has changed, and he’s made some minor adjustments up top and in the midfield two from time to time.

But bottom line, he’s going to shift us to three CBs, two wingbacks (and how many players do we have in the squad who’ve ever played that role decidedly), and two tens/proper inside forwards.

It’ll be a miracle if it doesn’t take time for the players to understand where they, and their teammates, should be and what they should be looking to do through particularly the second and third phases of play.

Then there’s what will be demanded of them when we turn the ball over…

posted on 10/11/24

Sensibly, we should be writing this season off results-wise and looking to what he’s able to do incrementally in implementing firstly the big overarching tactical setup, and then secondly those details which have made approach work (the movement of the CBs and the triangles in the build up, the positioning of the WBs, the ball carrying, the movements in the final third, the fierce counterpressing, etc.).

posted on 10/11/24

Yeah but again, there’s changing the shape and being pragmatic with it and changing the shape and being idealistic with the style of football he wants to play. I think we’ll see more of the latter than the former as it’s the best way for him to get results, and he will need to get results.

comment by kinsang (U3346)

posted on 10/11/24

I don't doubt it will take time for Amorim to get used to the squad and vice-versa.

But until he's actually here, no-one knows how it will work out. He could suddenly get most of these players playing to their actual potential, and so getting use to any new system will negate that somewhat, but by how much we don't know.

No-one is expecting a quick fix, but 'sneaking' a top 4 place in a season when a lot of teams are beating each other may not be impossible. I'm not saying that's the target for the end of the season, but even as a bunch of individuals who are playing semi-decent, this team will get results.

I am hoping for us to move up the table, with occasional setbacks along the way, but top 6 should still be achievable and maybe even better.

Of course Amorim needs time, but that doesn't mean the rest of the season should be written off, and some progress should be seen over the rest of the season as a whole.

comment by kinsang (U3346)

posted on 10/11/24

comment by It’s time for some Lancashire hotPote, R... (U17054)
posted 9 minutes ago
Sensibly, we should be writing this season off results-wise and looking to what he’s able to do incrementally in implementing firstly the big overarching tactical setup, and then secondly those details which have made approach work (the movement of the CBs and the triangles in the build up, the positioning of the WBs, the ball carrying, the movements in the final third, the fierce counterpressing, etc.).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you need a bit of both - you just can't write off results. By the very nature of making some progress, you would expect that to show in improved results. Off course it won't all be perfect, but there still needs to be expectation of good results for a club like us

posted on 10/11/24

Don’t you think he’ll be somewhat pragmatic whem coming into a new club, though? My understanding is that he did just that with Sporting and they were playing quite differently then to what they do now. I’ve seen their first title winning team described as a lot more pragmatic than his current side.

------------------------------------------------

Yeah most of his early success at Sporting was founded upon defensive solidity without the ball with Sporting conceding the lowest xGA in his first two full league campaigns and a direct attacking style.

Even though domestically Sporting do tend to end up with lots of possession, I think that's more down to the imbalanced nature of the league and the fact that many of the weaker sides tend to sit back in a low block than by design.

It's part of the reason why I have some doubts about whether he was the right choice and also me not being a fan of playing with a back three/five, especially with our squad.

posted on 10/11/24

comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by It’s time for some Lancashire hotPote, R... (U17054)
posted 9 minutes ago
Sensibly, we should be writing this season off results-wise and looking to what he’s able to do incrementally in implementing firstly the big overarching tactical setup, and then secondly those details which have made approach work (the movement of the CBs and the triangles in the build up, the positioning of the WBs, the ball carrying, the movements in the final third, the fierce counterpressing, etc.).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you need a bit of both - you just can't write off results. By the very nature of making some progress, you would expect that to show in improved results. Off course it won't all be perfect, but there still needs to be expectation of good results for a club like us
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You would expect that, but we played better this season under ETH than we did the most of last season.

The point is that it isn’t important. Of course we should be aiming for European football, but focussing primarily on trying to achieve a CL berth at the cost - time-wise and ultimately in terms of effectiveness - of the transition we can expect is going to be coming would be a mistake. That’s how we’ve ended up here, still playing drab, disjointed, ‘pragmatic’ football with a mess of a squad filled with players with completely misaligned qualities.

posted on 10/11/24

Once again, I’m with Carl Anka on this: we need to see Amorim come in and ‘Amorimify’ this United side.

We can’t have another two years of a coach like ETH giving up on implementing what he really wants to see - and what he does really well - because he feels like he can’t make it work with the players/dressing room he has.

posted on 10/11/24

comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 5 minutes ago
Don’t you think he’ll be somewhat pragmatic whem coming into a new club, though? My understanding is that he did just that with Sporting and they were playing quite differently then to what they do now. I’ve seen their first title winning team described as a lot more pragmatic than his current side.

------------------------------------------------

Yeah most of his early success at Sporting was founded upon defensive solidity without the ball with Sporting conceding the lowest xGA in his first two full league campaigns and a direct attacking style.

Even though domestically Sporting do tend to end up with lots of possession, I think that's more down to the imbalanced nature of the league and the fact that many of the weaker sides tend to sit back in a low block than by design.

It's part of the reason why I have some doubts about whether he was the right choice and also me not being a fan of playing with a back three/five, especially with our squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


He’s got a hell of a job on his hands, whatever he does.

If he’s all he’s cracked up to be then we should be seeing positive results from the off.

posted on 10/11/24

The real worry is the wingbacks.

If you look at how Quenda and Araújo played today, and you could say the same going back before even last season with Porro and Nuno Santos, I just don’t think we have anyone in the squad who knows how to play those roles right now.

posted on 10/11/24

A good manager wouldn’t play a system that relies on wingbacks at a club that doesn’t have any wingbacks.

posted on 10/11/24

He’s got a hell of a job on his hands, whatever he does.

If he’s all he’s cracked up to be then we should be seeing positive results from the off.

-----------------------------------------

Well by all accounts he's an excellent motivator, communicator and leader and has worked wonders in improving the mentality at Sporting and at United, that's a big part of the battle.

I thought his quotes after the City game were interesting:

Ruben Amorim: "Man United cannot play the way we play, they cannot be so defensive."

"Of course it’s good to beat City. But I’ll be living in a different world, we’ll have to start from a different point."

We'll obviously have to wait and see how that plays out but it has alleviated some of my concerns.

I am looking forward to seeing what he can do and what his immediate plans for our squad are.

posted on 10/11/24

TRS

posted on 10/11/24

I hope Dalot's showing today is enough evidence for Amorim to bin him off.
That passage of play where he was about two metres deeper than the rest of the defenders, and then just continued to watch while the Leicester player goes through on goal should be enough to sack someone these days in the prem.
That's fking crap I learnt when I was about 8 or 9 years old. If I did that I got a bollockng from the manager.
Useless cant Dalot.

posted on 10/11/24

comment by Ruben The King Amorim Tim Tagi Dim (U10026)
posted 5 minutes ago
A good manager wouldn’t play a system that relies on wingbacks at a club that doesn’t have any wingbacks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure what else he can do. He hasn’t ever used anything other than a back three his entire managerial career AFAIK.

This Sky Sports analysis from Carragher and Berbatov sums the challenges up (surprisingly) well, IMO:

https://www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11095/13244623/ruben-amorim-tactics-formation-and-playing-style-how-could-man-utd-line-up-under-new-head-coach

posted on 10/11/24

I find it hard to believe that a professional football coach CANNOT set up a team with the most common defensive set up the history of the sport: the back four.

comment by kinsang (U3346)

posted on 10/11/24

comment by It’s time for some Lancashire hotPote, R... (U17054)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by It’s time for some Lancashire hotPote, R... (U17054)
posted 9 minutes ago
Sensibly, we should be writing this season off results-wise and looking to what he’s able to do incrementally in implementing firstly the big overarching tactical setup, and then secondly those details which have made approach work (the movement of the CBs and the triangles in the build up, the positioning of the WBs, the ball carrying, the movements in the final third, the fierce counterpressing, etc.).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you need a bit of both - you just can't write off results. By the very nature of making some progress, you would expect that to show in improved results. Off course it won't all be perfect, but there still needs to be expectation of good results for a club like us
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You would expect that, but we played better this season under ETH than we did the most of last season.

The point is that it isn’t important. Of course we should be aiming for European football, but focussing primarily on trying to achieve a CL berth at the cost - time-wise and ultimately in terms of effectiveness - of the transition we can expect is going to be coming would be a mistake. That’s how we’ve ended up here, still playing drab, disjointed, ‘pragmatic’ football with a mess of a squad filled with players with completely misaligned qualities.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were a little more solid under ETH this season than last, but that wouldn't exactly be difficult, but the team still had no identity or belief in ETH, which was the main problem.

For me, Amorim trying to do what he does goes hand-in-hand with the team improving and we end up wherever we do - that could be top 8, top 6 or top 4.

In the short-term I can accept the progress may be slow, especially as Amorim settles in and needs to implement his style, but he also knows what he has come into and the players he is getting, there will need to be some compromise somewhere, but part of his job is to be able to get as many of these players to fit into his style also.

But if he is the right guy, he will make it work by so much with this set of players, and then slowly tweak the squad more to his liking.

But I believe if he gets a fair number of these players playing to their potential, regardless of style, we will see significant progress, and who knows where that will leave us table wise.

posted on 11/11/24

comment by Ruben The King Amorim Tim Tagi Dim (U10026)
posted 2 hours ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 JA606 Class Act (U2462)
posted 1 hour, 1 minute ago
Ange had a similar start with Spurs last season too.

City will probably still win it but I wouldn't rule out Arsenal either. They've already been to Villa, Spurs, City, Newcastle and Chelsea this season. If they get on a run they'll get back up there I've no doubt about that.
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Difference is that everyone knew that Spurs were punching above their weight and would go back to midtable form. Weren’t Liverpool top until we ended their season last year?
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We'll end it in January this season!

All jokes aside I can see the a top 3 bunched up at the start of January and another.4/5 below them going for a CL spot..

For me Amorim's biggest job is getting these players playing as a team, not individuals, and getting them to enjoy playing for United so that they realise individual glory comes from the team's results.

posted on 11/11/24

Yeah I think that’s fair, Diafol.

posted on 11/11/24

He played a back 4 in his first two games as a manager and lost. For his 3rd game he switched to a back 3 and the rest is history.

posted on 11/11/24

A quick google would suggest he used a back four with Braga.

posted on 11/11/24

Just looking at his games with Braga. I don’t know about the cup games, but the league games he used 3-4-3 every time. Maybe he used four at the back with Braga B before Pinto was sacked and he stepped up?

First match he twaatted Belenenses SAD 7-1 away from home having switched them from the 4-3-3 Pinto was using to 3-4-3.

Interestingly enough, all of Trincão, Ricardo Esgaio and João Palhinha played in that game, which may (or may not) tell us something about his interests in bringing players he knows with him.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3211579

He then went on to beat a very good Porto side (which went on to win the league at a canter) twice and Sporting before they snapped him up.

comment by kinsang (U3346)

posted on 11/11/24

I think it's important not to pigeon-hole Amorim too much. He is still a young manager who will still be learning his trade.
He has a preferred system of 3-4-3 at Sporting. Maybe that is where he actually prefers, maybe with the players he had there, it also suited him.
I am sure at that club and previous ones, he has adapted and tinkered in certain situations etc.

But as manager at Utd, even if 3-4-3 is he preferred system, he's going to need he can hack it at the very highest level, and that will include developing himself as a manager, as well as the players, learning from his mistakes and treading that fine line between making brave calls but accepting when something is quite not working out.

he looks like he has all the attributes to do well, and for being a good communicator is as important as any tactical know-how.

Even allowing for him to settle in etc, I just think we will see early on a real positive impact on the players - the players will really want to play for him, I never felt that under ETH

posted on 11/11/24

Here’s an interesting video I don’t think I’ve seen before (but maybe I did and didn’t connect the dots): it’s Amorim being asked by the press about a supposed Manchester United interest in Sporting *RWB* Geovany Quenda.

United obviously didn’t play with wingbacks (at least specialist ones) under ETH, or as good as ever. So a bit strange that we’d be randomly linked with one.

The more interesting and fun bit: this press conference was the first time Amorim had been asked about United’s supposed interest in Quenda, and it happened on 28 October, the same day that ETH was sacked.

Was the source of this a journo who had an inside track on Amorim to United and wanted to poke a little? Had Amorim already spoken to United about Quenda? Had United, knowing that they were in for Amorim, already enquired about Quenda separately?

More likely the first than either of the other two I think, but Quenda might well be the first Sporting player I think we could be in for in the summer.

The vid (in Portuguese): https://www.abola.pt/futebol/video/-2024102813303551292

(Amorim says he didn’t know about United’s interest, if it exists; that Quenda is very young and has played few games; that he needs to keep his feet on the ground; and that the price of players is a matter for Sporting’s President and not him.)

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