posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 24 minutes ago
Poch should be commended and respected for the superb job that he did for us at Spurs.
However, I can also understand the argument that he's not a top manager.
He achieved great things with Spurs, but he did not get us over the line. In his subsequent roles he did not set the world alight either.
I don't think he's an elite manager, but I will always be grateful to him for what he did at Spurs. Having said that, I would not necessarily want him to return as our manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The only point that matters is your first. He did a superb job with us. I don't care how he's seen objectively by other fans or whether he's considered in the elite. The accusation from some fans on here was that he was a failure with us which I wholeheartedly disagree with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The most successful manager for Spurs in a generation, since the 70,s probably most on here will ever remember can't understand all this negativity wierd when 95% of all managers in the premier league will not win anything either, realism does not exist on this site
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
Poch should not just be judged on his five years at Spurs, he should also be judged on the five years since he left Spurs, where he also has done next to nothing. That's 10 years where all he won was a couple of trophies in a pub league in France.
Top managers don't end up in the USA, they are in big demand in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did a great job with Southampton before joining us, was the best manager we've had for a generation, and the stats more than back that up, and he then made two errors joining circus clubs in PSG and Chelsea.
I've already had this debate with you Sandy and we're never going to agree but measuring Poch's talents based on his career post-Spurs is unfair without the context of what was going on at those clubs at the time. At PSG he had a front line unwilling to do work off the ball, such was their taste for lazy superstars at the time. He was constantly undermined by Leonardo as Sporting Director too. The politics at that club were turbulent to say the least. Then he went to Chelsea and we all know how much they messed up in the market at the time. They're only now getting it right.
Fans like you don't deserve those nights against Ajax, City, Madrid etc. You take every single opportunity to bash Poch without taking into account club finances at that time and a complete disregard for squad evolution at board level. He's a manager, not a miracle worker.
So much disrespect. You'd expect that in the five years since he's gone, you'd have gained a little perspective on what a good job he did considering how far we've fallen but no, you're just one of those characters that doesn't have the maturity to admit when he's wrong, even though internally you know you are. Yes, it was going wrong, yes, the away form in the final year was poor and yes, it probably was worth considering a change for all parties (although I prefer to lean on the idea that he had enough credit in the bank to stay on and rebuild) but to not even look back with any fondness at all is just a joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot agree at all. You lot can go on a***se licking Poch intil eternity. Bottom line is Spurs should have won something under him. That they didn't has to be on him. He had the tools, just didn't know how to use them properly. Same at PSG, where he was an abject failure. He also had Chelsea sitting in something like 12th/13th for most of the season, after spending a fortune.
Sorry, but nothing on his CV puts him as anything other than a very average manager, that somehow managed to get some top jobs in football. He obviously knew how to do a job interview. I will give him that.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by Dave&Danny dynamic (U4428)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 24 minutes ago
Poch should be commended and respected for the superb job that he did for us at Spurs.
However, I can also understand the argument that he's not a top manager.
He achieved great things with Spurs, but he did not get us over the line. In his subsequent roles he did not set the world alight either.
I don't think he's an elite manager, but I will always be grateful to him for what he did at Spurs. Having said that, I would not necessarily want him to return as our manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The only point that matters is your first. He did a superb job with us. I don't care how he's seen objectively by other fans or whether he's considered in the elite. The accusation from some fans on here was that he was a failure with us which I wholeheartedly disagree with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The most successful manager for Spurs in a generation, since the 70,s probably most on here will ever remember can't understand all this negativity wierd when 95% of all managers in the premier league will not win anything either, realism does not exist on this site
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For me the argument is not about what he did for Spurs. As I said above, he did a great job for us and he should be respected for that.
My point is that I don't think he's an elite manager. As a result, I don't think that if he returned to Spurs that he would somehow replicate what he did last time and even go one better.
Poch was great, but we have to move on from him.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by Dave&Danny dynamic (U4428)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 24 minutes ago
Poch should be commended and respected for the superb job that he did for us at Spurs.
However, I can also understand the argument that he's not a top manager.
He achieved great things with Spurs, but he did not get us over the line. In his subsequent roles he did not set the world alight either.
I don't think he's an elite manager, but I will always be grateful to him for what he did at Spurs. Having said that, I would not necessarily want him to return as our manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The only point that matters is your first. He did a superb job with us. I don't care how he's seen objectively by other fans or whether he's considered in the elite. The accusation from some fans on here was that he was a failure with us which I wholeheartedly disagree with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The most successful manager for Spurs in a generation, since the 70,s probably most on here will ever remember can't understand all this negativity wierd when 95% of all managers in the premier league will not win anything either, realism does not exist on this site
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly....and we sacked him. It's not like he jumped ship to Chelsea.
Average managers do not get teams competing at the elite level.
I think his sweet spot really was being able to develop a young team into something superb, and you kinda saw that beginning to work at Chelsea too.
Whether he is capable of taking that brilliant work to the next level, to the very top, we will never know. But just missing out on that does not make him average.
Few have done or could do ANYWHERE what he did at Spurs, with the resources we had.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
Poch should not just be judged on his five years at Spurs, he should also be judged on the five years since he left Spurs, where he also has done next to nothing. That's 10 years where all he won was a couple of trophies in a pub league in France.
Top managers don't end up in the USA, they are in big demand in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did a great job with Southampton before joining us, was the best manager we've had for a generation, and the stats more than back that up, and he then made two errors joining circus clubs in PSG and Chelsea.
I've already had this debate with you Sandy and we're never going to agree but measuring Poch's talents based on his career post-Spurs is unfair without the context of what was going on at those clubs at the time. At PSG he had a front line unwilling to do work off the ball, such was their taste for lazy superstars at the time. He was constantly undermined by Leonardo as Sporting Director too. The politics at that club were turbulent to say the least. Then he went to Chelsea and we all know how much they messed up in the market at the time. They're only now getting it right.
Fans like you don't deserve those nights against Ajax, City, Madrid etc. You take every single opportunity to bash Poch without taking into account club finances at that time and a complete disregard for squad evolution at board level. He's a manager, not a miracle worker.
So much disrespect. You'd expect that in the five years since he's gone, you'd have gained a little perspective on what a good job he did considering how far we've fallen but no, you're just one of those characters that doesn't have the maturity to admit when he's wrong, even though internally you know you are. Yes, it was going wrong, yes, the away form in the final year was poor and yes, it probably was worth considering a change for all parties (although I prefer to lean on the idea that he had enough credit in the bank to stay on and rebuild) but to not even look back with any fondness at all is just a joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot agree at all. You lot can go on a***se licking Poch intil eternity. Bottom line is Spurs should have won something under him. That they didn't has to be on him. He had the tools, just didn't know how to use them properly. Same at PSG, where he was an abject failure. He also had Chelsea sitting in something like 12th/13th for most of the season, after spending a fortune.
Sorry, but nothing on his CV puts him as anything other than a very average manager, that somehow managed to get some top jobs in football. He obviously knew how to do a job interview. I will give him that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Name a more successful manager at Spurs since Burkinshaw ,Sandy this is all relevant, not but he should have won, very few managers in the prem league can be winners because it is very competitive and relevant to finacial constraints, being successful is the relevance
here and Pochettino was
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
Poch should not just be judged on his five years at Spurs, he should also be judged on the five years since he left Spurs, where he also has done next to nothing. That's 10 years where all he won was a couple of trophies in a pub league in France.
Top managers don't end up in the USA, they are in big demand in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did a great job with Southampton before joining us, was the best manager we've had for a generation, and the stats more than back that up, and he then made two errors joining circus clubs in PSG and Chelsea.
I've already had this debate with you Sandy and we're never going to agree but measuring Poch's talents based on his career post-Spurs is unfair without the context of what was going on at those clubs at the time. At PSG he had a front line unwilling to do work off the ball, such was their taste for lazy superstars at the time. He was constantly undermined by Leonardo as Sporting Director too. The politics at that club were turbulent to say the least. Then he went to Chelsea and we all know how much they messed up in the market at the time. They're only now getting it right.
Fans like you don't deserve those nights against Ajax, City, Madrid etc. You take every single opportunity to bash Poch without taking into account club finances at that time and a complete disregard for squad evolution at board level. He's a manager, not a miracle worker.
So much disrespect. You'd expect that in the five years since he's gone, you'd have gained a little perspective on what a good job he did considering how far we've fallen but no, you're just one of those characters that doesn't have the maturity to admit when he's wrong, even though internally you know you are. Yes, it was going wrong, yes, the away form in the final year was poor and yes, it probably was worth considering a change for all parties (although I prefer to lean on the idea that he had enough credit in the bank to stay on and rebuild) but to not even look back with any fondness at all is just a joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot agree at all. You lot can go on a***se licking Poch intil eternity. Bottom line is Spurs should have won something under him. That they didn't has to be on him. He had the tools, just didn't know how to use them properly. Same at PSG, where he was an abject failure. He also had Chelsea sitting in something like 12th/13th for most of the season, after spending a fortune.
Sorry, but nothing on his CV puts him as anything other than a very average manager, that somehow managed to get some top jobs in football. He obviously knew how to do a job interview. I will give him that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is just laughable. If that's what you genuinely think then there's no point in continuing this debate any further. I'd rather have this discussion with someone enough intelligence to recognise that success isn't black or white. There's different degrees of success. All I know is that he's come closer than anybody to the promised land than any manager since probably Keith Burkinshaw and nobody, no one in our 100+ year history has got us to a European Cup final. Just think about that. The pinnacle of club football and we very nearly won it. Now we're hoping against hope of winning the Europa League. You see the difference?
What strikes me as bizarre is that when Jose came in you were happy, when Conte came in you were happy. You got your winning manager but at no point in those catastrophic five years since Poch was sacked have you ever thought "maybe I got that one wrong". It's remarkable. Objectively and statistically you were wrong so to double down on that attitude now is just childish.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Dave&Danny dynamic (U4428)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 24 minutes ago
Poch should be commended and respected for the superb job that he did for us at Spurs.
However, I can also understand the argument that he's not a top manager.
He achieved great things with Spurs, but he did not get us over the line. In his subsequent roles he did not set the world alight either.
I don't think he's an elite manager, but I will always be grateful to him for what he did at Spurs. Having said that, I would not necessarily want him to return as our manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The only point that matters is your first. He did a superb job with us. I don't care how he's seen objectively by other fans or whether he's considered in the elite. The accusation from some fans on here was that he was a failure with us which I wholeheartedly disagree with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The most successful manager for Spurs in a generation, since the 70,s probably most on here will ever remember can't understand all this negativity wierd when 95% of all managers in the premier league will not win anything either, realism does not exist on this site
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For me the argument is not about what he did for Spurs. As I said above, he did a great job for us and he should be respected for that.
My point is that I don't think he's an elite manager. As a result, I don't think that if he returned to Spurs that he would somehow replicate what he did last time and even go one better.
Poch was great, but we have to move on from him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is asking for him back. I'm happy to see the Ange project out and give him time (and hopefully he's supported well at board level). I just wish some fans would show a little more respect for Poch and his time with us. There's not even a flicker of doubt on this one for me. He was and still is our greatest ever manager in the Premier League by an absolute mile. To not appreciate that is mind boggling. Thankfully most of us can see that success without disregarding it on the basis of a lack of trophies.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
Slightly moving away from the Poch debate, it's interesting to see fans refer to his time as a success, but on the other hand some of the very same fans berate Levy/ENIC for not having won anything in 20 years and call their whole time a failure!
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 5 minutes ago
Slightly moving away from the Poch debate, it's interesting to see fans refer to his time as a success, but on the other hand some of the very same fans berate Levy/ENIC for not having won anything in 20 years and call their whole time a failure!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is definite inconsistency from fans, but with Levy we do lurch from strong periods to a mess.
Jol
Ramos
Redknapp
AVB/Sherwodd
Poch
Jose
Nuno
Conte and
Ange - ???
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
On my drive home yesterday from Swindon I turned to Talk Sport Jim White show and they had David Pleat on.
It was a very good interview with him. He was quite candid in what he said some interesting points. Ones that stood out:
A lot clubs now just use data when buying players hence why Pleat’s no longer got a scouting job. Although he agrees with some it it he felt that nothing beats watching a player in the flesh where you can actually see what he's good at.
He also went on to say don’t scout a player too many times (more than two I think he said) else you start finding faults in them.
On Levy he said that he had backed every manager and the club had spent loads but probably badly in many cases and its the mangers who accept or ask for players not Levy saying I’ve got a player for you.
He also said fans do not understand what the running of club takes and all the financial issues, limitations that are not just football on the pitch related.
On Poch he said Mitchel told him Poch was offered full backing but said he was happy with his squad and needed no new blood hence no one came in.
He also said clubs should always bring one or two in every season to keep it fresh and challenge existing players.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 5 minutes ago
Slightly moving away from the Poch debate, it's interesting to see fans refer to his time as a success, but on the other hand some of the very same fans berate Levy/ENIC for not having won anything in 20 years and call their whole time a failure!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is definite inconsistency from fans, but with Levy we do lurch from strong periods to a mess.
Jol
Ramos
Redknapp
AVB/Sherwodd
Poch
Jose
Nuno
Conteand
Ange - ???
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By some fans I know you're alluding to me in this. That's fine. I understand the accusation based on seemingly contradictory stances but it's quite simple. Poch was successful, owed in part to some shrewd decisions on young players signed at club level, of that I give Levy credit, but what stopped Poch going again, what stopped him from really pushing to win a title - a lack of financial support from the board. A lot of fans on here are saying Poch was a failure, which I don't agree with, but if you could ever accuse of being one, it's because the board failed to back him when he needed it most. I'd say he was let down from 2017/18 onwards. You can still regard a manager as a success but still feel that those above could have done more to match his ambitions. Yes, the stadium had to be built and the circumstances were unfortunate there. The progress was almost too quick for the club in that regard but for me it is possible to separate the two. I can still hold Poch aloft but equally shame Levy at the same time. They're two different judgments. Things were poor before Poch came in and poor after he left so that tells you everything you need to know about who deserves the credit for that "success".
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
"On Poch he said Mitchel told him Poch was offered full backing but said he was happy with his squad and needed no new blood hence no one came in."
––––––––––––
Worth pointing out here Jimmy that this stance was taken by Poch BASED on the profile and budget Levy was offering him for new players. If you don't believe that the type of players within our financial reach are any better than those you already have, why would you spend? Poch gets bashed for this but as far as I'm concerned it's a failure of club ambition rather than his own. He's basically saying "I don't want substandard players warming the bench" and that's a criticism we've had as fans down the years too. I understand him completely.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 5 minutes ago
Slightly moving away from the Poch debate, it's interesting to see fans refer to his time as a success, but on the other hand some of the very same fans berate Levy/ENIC for not having won anything in 20 years and call their whole time a failure!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is definite inconsistency from fans, but with Levy we do lurch from strong periods to a mess.
Jol
Ramos
Redknapp
AVB/Sherwodd
Poch
Jose
Nuno
Conteand
Ange - ???
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By some fans I know you're alluding to me in this. That's fine. I understand the accusation based on seemingly contradictory stances but it's quite simple. Poch was successful, owed in part to some shrewd decisions on young players signed at club level, of that I give Levy credit, but what stopped Poch going again, what stopped him from really pushing to win a title - a lack of financial support from the board. A lot of fans on here are saying Poch was a failure, which I don't agree with, but if you could ever accuse of being one, it's because the board failed to back him when he needed it most. I'd say he was let down from 2017/18 onwards. You can still regard a manager as a success but still feel that those above could have done more to match his ambitions. Yes, the stadium had to be built and the circumstances were unfortunate there. The progress was almost too quick for the club in that regard but for me it is possible to separate the two. I can still hold Poch aloft but equally shame Levy at the same time. They're two different judgments. Things were poor before Poch came in and poor after he left so that tells you everything you need to know about who deserves the credit for that "success".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You are pretty fair in your view, but i do think most people ignore the context of the stadium when looking at what we could spend.
There is no doubt that transfer-less season stagnated the squad and well before the UCL final things were starting to unravel.
The following summer saw unprecedented backing of the manager.
In all of that, what i see as the worst decision, was not a lack of backing (because that was also Poch's choice) but that the zero transfer spending was not factored in when assessing our poor form.
It was an early season sacking which Levy probably thought left us enough time to recover a top 4 challenge, and despite Jose's style, he was a very high profile top level manager.
The mistake was an old one by Levy, chasing top 4, instead of playing the long game and perhaps accepting a season in the Ropey. With the new stadium I think his ego also wanted to show it off in the top euro competition.
All things considered, despite a long period of poor form, we should have stuck with Poch and it is without doubt Levy's biggest mistake. How he sacked Jol was his most deplorable action!
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 2 minutes ago
"On Poch he said Mitchel told him Poch was offered full backing but said he was happy with his squad and needed no new blood hence no one came in."
––––––––––––
Worth pointing out here Jimmy that this stance was taken by Poch BASED on the profile and budget Levy was offering him for new players. If you don't believe that the type of players within our financial reach are any better than those you already have, why would you spend? Poch gets bashed for this but as far as I'm concerned it's a failure of club ambition rather than his own. He's basically saying "I don't want substandard players warming the bench" and that's a criticism we've had as fans down the years too. I understand him completely.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yes, I agree no point bringing in similar level players who would sit on the bench but they way Pleat said it was suggesting Mitchel was saying who do you want in to Poch.
So interesting to because who is telling the truth or BS in the scenario.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 minutes ago
"On Poch he said Mitchel told him Poch was offered full backing but said he was happy with his squad and needed no new blood hence no one came in."
––––––––––––
Worth pointing out here Jimmy that this stance was taken by Poch BASED on the profile and budget Levy was offering him for new players. If you don't believe that the type of players within our financial reach are any better than those you already have, why would you spend? Poch gets bashed for this but as far as I'm concerned it's a failure of club ambition rather than his own. He's basically saying "I don't want substandard players warming the bench" and that's a criticism we've had as fans down the years too. I understand him completely.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that was during the stadium build, which went on for 9 months longer than thought. he following summer when we were able to spend, we spent big and i think we all hoped we had found Dembele's replacement in NDomb and Eriksen's in GLC. It looks a very strong squad after that window.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 3 hours,
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
Poch should not just be judged on his five years at Spurs, he should also be judged on the five years since he left Spurs, where he also has done next to nothing. That's 10 years where all he won was a couple of trophies in a pub league in France.
Top managers don't end up in the USA, they are in big demand in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did a great job with Southampton before joining us, was the best manager we've had for a generation, and the stats more than back that up, and he then made two errors joining circus clubs in PSG and Chelsea.
I've already had this debate with you Sandy and we're never going to agree but measuring Poch's talents based on his career post-Spurs is unfair without the context of what was going on at those clubs at the time. At PSG he had a front line unwilling to do work off the ball, such was their taste for lazy superstars at the time. He was constantly undermined by Leonardo as Sporting Director too. The politics at that club were turbulent to say the least. Then he went to Chelsea and we all know how much they messed up in the market at the time. They're only now getting it right.
Fans like you don't deserve those nights against Ajax, City, Madrid etc. You take every single opportunity to bash Poch without taking into account club finances at that time and a complete disregard for squad evolution at board level. He's a manager, not a miracle worker.
So much disrespect. You'd expect that in the five years since he's gone, you'd have gained a little perspective on what a good job he did considering how far we've fallen but no, you're just one of those characters that doesn't have the maturity to admit when he's wrong, even though internally you know you are. Yes, it was going wrong, yes, the away form in the final year was poor and yes, it probably was worth considering a change for all parties (although I prefer to lean on the idea that he had enough credit in the bank to stay on and rebuild) but to not even look back with any fondness at all is just a joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot agree at all. You lot can go on a***se licking Poch intil eternity. Bottom line is Spurs should have won something under him. That they didn't has to be on him. He had the tools, just didn't know how to use them properly. Same at PSG, where he was an abject failure. He also had Chelsea sitting in something like 12th/13th for most of the season, after spending a fortune.
Sorry, but nothing on his CV puts him as anything other than a very average manager, that somehow managed to get some top jobs in football. He obviously knew how to do a job interview. I will give him that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is just laughable. If that's what you genuinely think then there's no point in continuing this debate any further. I'd rather have this discussion with someone enough intelligence to recognise that success isn't black or white. There's different degrees of success. All I know is that he's come closer than anybody to the promised land than any manager since probably Keith Burkinshaw and nobody, no one in our 100+ year history has got us to a European Cup final. Just think about that. The pinnacle of club football and we very nearly won it. Now we're hoping against hope of winning the Europa League. You see the difference?
What strikes me as bizarre is that when Jose came in you were happy, when Conte came in you were happy. You got your winning manager but at no point in those catastrophic five years since Poch was sacked have you ever thought "maybe I got that one wrong". It's remarkable. Objectively and statistically you were wrong so to double down on that attitude now is just childish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That run to the CL final was riddled with extraordinary luck. Spurs shouldn't even have got out of the group that season. Lost their first two matches, and if Barcelona had not put out a severely weakened team in their last match at home to Spurs, then doubtful Spurs would have got a draw. As it was Inter also were expected to comfortably beat PSV at home on the same evening, that they didn't meant Spurs sneaked through on goal difference.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 23 hours, 55 minutes ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 2 minutes ago
4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th. League Cup Final, European Cup Final. All dealing with the club's financial constraints due to the stadium, 2 seasons without a home. If that's not success I don't know what is.
----------
Erm actual trophies = success. What world are you in?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I live in a world where people are rational enough to understand that success in football is measured by a number of factors, i.e average league position prior to taking a job, wage bill, transfer spend and not just a feckin tin pot. Are you telling me that if Fabian Hürzeler steers Brighton to 2nd place and a final in both domestic cup competitions that wouldn't constitute success? I actually question your sanity if you don't. Honestly.
Success to me is measured by the mean average of a club prior to a manager's arrival. If the new manager's achievements sit a fair distance above that marker, he's successful. Your understanding of success means on handful of clubs in world football can describe themselves as successful.
Everyone is different though. I heard someone ages ago saying that the run to the League Cup Final in 1999 and eventually winning it was better than our run to the European Cup Final in 2019. I find that astonishing. An unlucky loss in the final owed to a decision in the first two minutes that ultimately changed the game will not diminish the absolute wonder of that run to get there. That City game away and then the comeback against Ajax for me will live longer in the memory than Nielsen's goal in that final against Leicester. I had to look up the scorer. That says everything. Success doesn't always mean trophies. Success is about happy memories and that, for me, is what football is really all about. Only the younger fan, the post-Jose types measure success by trophies. It's a modern trope but frankly it's complete bolllllocks!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seriously what a load of tripe. Beating Chelsea in the 2008 league cup final, and seeing Spurs players running around with a trophy beats playing in a CL final, and not turning up and losing.
I switched the TV off when Liverpool went 2-0 up. When Spurs beat Chelsea in 2008 I was tuned in until the show had finished. Nothing beats winning.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
I'm gonna picket your funeral with an I LOVE POCH placard.
Its what you would have wanted.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 40 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 23 hours, 55 minutes ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 2 minutes ago
4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th. League Cup Final, European Cup Final. All dealing with the club's financial constraints due to the stadium, 2 seasons without a home. If that's not success I don't know what is.
----------
Erm actual trophies = success. What world are you in?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I live in a world where people are rational enough to understand that success in football is measured by a number of factors, i.e average league position prior to taking a job, wage bill, transfer spend and not just a feckin tin pot. Are you telling me that if Fabian Hürzeler steers Brighton to 2nd place and a final in both domestic cup competitions that wouldn't constitute success? I actually question your sanity if you don't. Honestly.
Success to me is measured by the mean average of a club prior to a manager's arrival. If the new manager's achievements sit a fair distance above that marker, he's successful. Your understanding of success means on handful of clubs in world football can describe themselves as successful.
Everyone is different though. I heard someone ages ago saying that the run to the League Cup Final in 1999 and eventually winning it was better than our run to the European Cup Final in 2019. I find that astonishing. An unlucky loss in the final owed to a decision in the first two minutes that ultimately changed the game will not diminish the absolute wonder of that run to get there. That City game away and then the comeback against Ajax for me will live longer in the memory than Nielsen's goal in that final against Leicester. I had to look up the scorer. That says everything. Success doesn't always mean trophies. Success is about happy memories and that, for me, is what football is really all about. Only the younger fan, the post-Jose types measure success by trophies. It's a modern trope but frankly it's complete bolllllocks!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seriously what a load of tripe. Beating Chelsea in the 2008 league cup final, and seeing Spurs players running around with a trophy beats playing in a CL final, and not turning up and losing.
I switched the TV off when Liverpool went 2-0 up. When Spurs beat Chelsea in 2008 I was tuned in until the show had finished. Nothing beats winning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The most successful manager at Spurs since Burkinshaw, its all relevant Sandy, can't hate him for that
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 57 minutes ago
I'm gonna picket your funeral with an I LOVE POCH placard.
Its what you would have wanted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I may outlive you.
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 5 hours, 1 minute ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 57 minutes ago
I'm gonna picket your funeral with an I LOVE POCH placard.
Its what you would have wanted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I may outlive you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, you should always go to other people's funerals, otherwise......................................
they won't come to yours!
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 17 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 23 hours, 55 minutes ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 2 minutes ago
4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th. League Cup Final, European Cup Final. All dealing with the club's financial constraints due to the stadium, 2 seasons without a home. If that's not success I don't know what is.
----------
Erm actual trophies = success. What world are you in?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I live in a world where people are rational enough to understand that success in football is measured by a number of factors, i.e average league position prior to taking a job, wage bill, transfer spend and not just a feckin tin pot. Are you telling me that if Fabian Hürzeler steers Brighton to 2nd place and a final in both domestic cup competitions that wouldn't constitute success? I actually question your sanity if you don't. Honestly.
Success to me is measured by the mean average of a club prior to a manager's arrival. If the new manager's achievements sit a fair distance above that marker, he's successful. Your understanding of success means on handful of clubs in world football can describe themselves as successful.
Everyone is different though. I heard someone ages ago saying that the run to the League Cup Final in 1999 and eventually winning it was better than our run to the European Cup Final in 2019. I find that astonishing. An unlucky loss in the final owed to a decision in the first two minutes that ultimately changed the game will not diminish the absolute wonder of that run to get there. That City game away and then the comeback against Ajax for me will live longer in the memory than Nielsen's goal in that final against Leicester. I had to look up the scorer. That says everything. Success doesn't always mean trophies. Success is about happy memories and that, for me, is what football is really all about. Only the younger fan, the post-Jose types measure success by trophies. It's a modern trope but frankly it's complete bolllllocks!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seriously what a load of tripe. Beating Chelsea in the 2008 league cup final, and seeing Spurs players running around with a trophy beats playing in a CL final, and not turning up and losing.
I switched the TV off when Liverpool went 2-0 up. When Spurs beat Chelsea in 2008 I was tuned in until the show had finished. Nothing beats winning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Winning matters when you are in competitions like that and in the later stages but success isn't only measured by winning. You can definitely still have success without winning trophies. Nobody for instance would say Emery hasn't been a success at Villa for getting them in the top 4 for the first time in decades from when he took over. Poch was also successful in the way he got us consecutive top 4 finishes and a CL final. He achieved more than Ramos did, even though Ramos won a cup final. It's why he lasted as long as he did and Ramos only lasted a season.
If Ange goes on to win a league cup but we finish mid-table and he gets sacked, I'd say the same there. Ange will have done well but it won't match what Poch achieved overall. He'd need to do more than that.
Emery and Poch's tenures are/were fun times.
Let's not devalue the word Success hey.
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 1 hour, 43 minutes ago
Emery and Poch's tenures are/were fun times.
Let's not devalue the word Success hey.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Get in the bin! You tell us all not to devalue success completely oblivious to your penchant for overplaying the word failure.
You speak utter nonsense.
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 1 hour, 43 minutes ago
Emery and Poch's tenures are/were fun times.
Let's not devalue the word Success hey.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Get in the bin! You tell us all not to devalue success completely oblivious to your penchant for overplaying the word failure.
You speak utter nonsense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, carry on basking in the successfull Poch era 😂😂😂 #ZeroTrophies.
Sign in if you want to comment
How can some people still justify ENIC?
Page 3 of 4
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 24 minutes ago
Poch should be commended and respected for the superb job that he did for us at Spurs.
However, I can also understand the argument that he's not a top manager.
He achieved great things with Spurs, but he did not get us over the line. In his subsequent roles he did not set the world alight either.
I don't think he's an elite manager, but I will always be grateful to him for what he did at Spurs. Having said that, I would not necessarily want him to return as our manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The only point that matters is your first. He did a superb job with us. I don't care how he's seen objectively by other fans or whether he's considered in the elite. The accusation from some fans on here was that he was a failure with us which I wholeheartedly disagree with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The most successful manager for Spurs in a generation, since the 70,s probably most on here will ever remember can't understand all this negativity wierd when 95% of all managers in the premier league will not win anything either, realism does not exist on this site
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
Poch should not just be judged on his five years at Spurs, he should also be judged on the five years since he left Spurs, where he also has done next to nothing. That's 10 years where all he won was a couple of trophies in a pub league in France.
Top managers don't end up in the USA, they are in big demand in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did a great job with Southampton before joining us, was the best manager we've had for a generation, and the stats more than back that up, and he then made two errors joining circus clubs in PSG and Chelsea.
I've already had this debate with you Sandy and we're never going to agree but measuring Poch's talents based on his career post-Spurs is unfair without the context of what was going on at those clubs at the time. At PSG he had a front line unwilling to do work off the ball, such was their taste for lazy superstars at the time. He was constantly undermined by Leonardo as Sporting Director too. The politics at that club were turbulent to say the least. Then he went to Chelsea and we all know how much they messed up in the market at the time. They're only now getting it right.
Fans like you don't deserve those nights against Ajax, City, Madrid etc. You take every single opportunity to bash Poch without taking into account club finances at that time and a complete disregard for squad evolution at board level. He's a manager, not a miracle worker.
So much disrespect. You'd expect that in the five years since he's gone, you'd have gained a little perspective on what a good job he did considering how far we've fallen but no, you're just one of those characters that doesn't have the maturity to admit when he's wrong, even though internally you know you are. Yes, it was going wrong, yes, the away form in the final year was poor and yes, it probably was worth considering a change for all parties (although I prefer to lean on the idea that he had enough credit in the bank to stay on and rebuild) but to not even look back with any fondness at all is just a joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot agree at all. You lot can go on a***se licking Poch intil eternity. Bottom line is Spurs should have won something under him. That they didn't has to be on him. He had the tools, just didn't know how to use them properly. Same at PSG, where he was an abject failure. He also had Chelsea sitting in something like 12th/13th for most of the season, after spending a fortune.
Sorry, but nothing on his CV puts him as anything other than a very average manager, that somehow managed to get some top jobs in football. He obviously knew how to do a job interview. I will give him that.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by Dave&Danny dynamic (U4428)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 24 minutes ago
Poch should be commended and respected for the superb job that he did for us at Spurs.
However, I can also understand the argument that he's not a top manager.
He achieved great things with Spurs, but he did not get us over the line. In his subsequent roles he did not set the world alight either.
I don't think he's an elite manager, but I will always be grateful to him for what he did at Spurs. Having said that, I would not necessarily want him to return as our manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The only point that matters is your first. He did a superb job with us. I don't care how he's seen objectively by other fans or whether he's considered in the elite. The accusation from some fans on here was that he was a failure with us which I wholeheartedly disagree with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The most successful manager for Spurs in a generation, since the 70,s probably most on here will ever remember can't understand all this negativity wierd when 95% of all managers in the premier league will not win anything either, realism does not exist on this site
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For me the argument is not about what he did for Spurs. As I said above, he did a great job for us and he should be respected for that.
My point is that I don't think he's an elite manager. As a result, I don't think that if he returned to Spurs that he would somehow replicate what he did last time and even go one better.
Poch was great, but we have to move on from him.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by Dave&Danny dynamic (U4428)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 24 minutes ago
Poch should be commended and respected for the superb job that he did for us at Spurs.
However, I can also understand the argument that he's not a top manager.
He achieved great things with Spurs, but he did not get us over the line. In his subsequent roles he did not set the world alight either.
I don't think he's an elite manager, but I will always be grateful to him for what he did at Spurs. Having said that, I would not necessarily want him to return as our manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The only point that matters is your first. He did a superb job with us. I don't care how he's seen objectively by other fans or whether he's considered in the elite. The accusation from some fans on here was that he was a failure with us which I wholeheartedly disagree with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The most successful manager for Spurs in a generation, since the 70,s probably most on here will ever remember can't understand all this negativity wierd when 95% of all managers in the premier league will not win anything either, realism does not exist on this site
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly....and we sacked him. It's not like he jumped ship to Chelsea.
Average managers do not get teams competing at the elite level.
I think his sweet spot really was being able to develop a young team into something superb, and you kinda saw that beginning to work at Chelsea too.
Whether he is capable of taking that brilliant work to the next level, to the very top, we will never know. But just missing out on that does not make him average.
Few have done or could do ANYWHERE what he did at Spurs, with the resources we had.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
Poch should not just be judged on his five years at Spurs, he should also be judged on the five years since he left Spurs, where he also has done next to nothing. That's 10 years where all he won was a couple of trophies in a pub league in France.
Top managers don't end up in the USA, they are in big demand in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did a great job with Southampton before joining us, was the best manager we've had for a generation, and the stats more than back that up, and he then made two errors joining circus clubs in PSG and Chelsea.
I've already had this debate with you Sandy and we're never going to agree but measuring Poch's talents based on his career post-Spurs is unfair without the context of what was going on at those clubs at the time. At PSG he had a front line unwilling to do work off the ball, such was their taste for lazy superstars at the time. He was constantly undermined by Leonardo as Sporting Director too. The politics at that club were turbulent to say the least. Then he went to Chelsea and we all know how much they messed up in the market at the time. They're only now getting it right.
Fans like you don't deserve those nights against Ajax, City, Madrid etc. You take every single opportunity to bash Poch without taking into account club finances at that time and a complete disregard for squad evolution at board level. He's a manager, not a miracle worker.
So much disrespect. You'd expect that in the five years since he's gone, you'd have gained a little perspective on what a good job he did considering how far we've fallen but no, you're just one of those characters that doesn't have the maturity to admit when he's wrong, even though internally you know you are. Yes, it was going wrong, yes, the away form in the final year was poor and yes, it probably was worth considering a change for all parties (although I prefer to lean on the idea that he had enough credit in the bank to stay on and rebuild) but to not even look back with any fondness at all is just a joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot agree at all. You lot can go on a***se licking Poch intil eternity. Bottom line is Spurs should have won something under him. That they didn't has to be on him. He had the tools, just didn't know how to use them properly. Same at PSG, where he was an abject failure. He also had Chelsea sitting in something like 12th/13th for most of the season, after spending a fortune.
Sorry, but nothing on his CV puts him as anything other than a very average manager, that somehow managed to get some top jobs in football. He obviously knew how to do a job interview. I will give him that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Name a more successful manager at Spurs since Burkinshaw ,Sandy this is all relevant, not but he should have won, very few managers in the prem league can be winners because it is very competitive and relevant to finacial constraints, being successful is the relevance
here and Pochettino was
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
Poch should not just be judged on his five years at Spurs, he should also be judged on the five years since he left Spurs, where he also has done next to nothing. That's 10 years where all he won was a couple of trophies in a pub league in France.
Top managers don't end up in the USA, they are in big demand in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did a great job with Southampton before joining us, was the best manager we've had for a generation, and the stats more than back that up, and he then made two errors joining circus clubs in PSG and Chelsea.
I've already had this debate with you Sandy and we're never going to agree but measuring Poch's talents based on his career post-Spurs is unfair without the context of what was going on at those clubs at the time. At PSG he had a front line unwilling to do work off the ball, such was their taste for lazy superstars at the time. He was constantly undermined by Leonardo as Sporting Director too. The politics at that club were turbulent to say the least. Then he went to Chelsea and we all know how much they messed up in the market at the time. They're only now getting it right.
Fans like you don't deserve those nights against Ajax, City, Madrid etc. You take every single opportunity to bash Poch without taking into account club finances at that time and a complete disregard for squad evolution at board level. He's a manager, not a miracle worker.
So much disrespect. You'd expect that in the five years since he's gone, you'd have gained a little perspective on what a good job he did considering how far we've fallen but no, you're just one of those characters that doesn't have the maturity to admit when he's wrong, even though internally you know you are. Yes, it was going wrong, yes, the away form in the final year was poor and yes, it probably was worth considering a change for all parties (although I prefer to lean on the idea that he had enough credit in the bank to stay on and rebuild) but to not even look back with any fondness at all is just a joke.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot agree at all. You lot can go on a***se licking Poch intil eternity. Bottom line is Spurs should have won something under him. That they didn't has to be on him. He had the tools, just didn't know how to use them properly. Same at PSG, where he was an abject failure. He also had Chelsea sitting in something like 12th/13th for most of the season, after spending a fortune.
Sorry, but nothing on his CV puts him as anything other than a very average manager, that somehow managed to get some top jobs in football. He obviously knew how to do a job interview. I will give him that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is just laughable. If that's what you genuinely think then there's no point in continuing this debate any further. I'd rather have this discussion with someone enough intelligence to recognise that success isn't black or white. There's different degrees of success. All I know is that he's come closer than anybody to the promised land than any manager since probably Keith Burkinshaw and nobody, no one in our 100+ year history has got us to a European Cup final. Just think about that. The pinnacle of club football and we very nearly won it. Now we're hoping against hope of winning the Europa League. You see the difference?
What strikes me as bizarre is that when Jose came in you were happy, when Conte came in you were happy. You got your winning manager but at no point in those catastrophic five years since Poch was sacked have you ever thought "maybe I got that one wrong". It's remarkable. Objectively and statistically you were wrong so to double down on that attitude now is just childish.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Dave&Danny dynamic (U4428)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 24 minutes ago
Poch should be commended and respected for the superb job that he did for us at Spurs.
However, I can also understand the argument that he's not a top manager.
He achieved great things with Spurs, but he did not get us over the line. In his subsequent roles he did not set the world alight either.
I don't think he's an elite manager, but I will always be grateful to him for what he did at Spurs. Having said that, I would not necessarily want him to return as our manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The only point that matters is your first. He did a superb job with us. I don't care how he's seen objectively by other fans or whether he's considered in the elite. The accusation from some fans on here was that he was a failure with us which I wholeheartedly disagree with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The most successful manager for Spurs in a generation, since the 70,s probably most on here will ever remember can't understand all this negativity wierd when 95% of all managers in the premier league will not win anything either, realism does not exist on this site
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For me the argument is not about what he did for Spurs. As I said above, he did a great job for us and he should be respected for that.
My point is that I don't think he's an elite manager. As a result, I don't think that if he returned to Spurs that he would somehow replicate what he did last time and even go one better.
Poch was great, but we have to move on from him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is asking for him back. I'm happy to see the Ange project out and give him time (and hopefully he's supported well at board level). I just wish some fans would show a little more respect for Poch and his time with us. There's not even a flicker of doubt on this one for me. He was and still is our greatest ever manager in the Premier League by an absolute mile. To not appreciate that is mind boggling. Thankfully most of us can see that success without disregarding it on the basis of a lack of trophies.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
Slightly moving away from the Poch debate, it's interesting to see fans refer to his time as a success, but on the other hand some of the very same fans berate Levy/ENIC for not having won anything in 20 years and call their whole time a failure!
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 5 minutes ago
Slightly moving away from the Poch debate, it's interesting to see fans refer to his time as a success, but on the other hand some of the very same fans berate Levy/ENIC for not having won anything in 20 years and call their whole time a failure!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is definite inconsistency from fans, but with Levy we do lurch from strong periods to a mess.
Jol
Ramos
Redknapp
AVB/Sherwodd
Poch
Jose
Nuno
Conte and
Ange - ???
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
On my drive home yesterday from Swindon I turned to Talk Sport Jim White show and they had David Pleat on.
It was a very good interview with him. He was quite candid in what he said some interesting points. Ones that stood out:
A lot clubs now just use data when buying players hence why Pleat’s no longer got a scouting job. Although he agrees with some it it he felt that nothing beats watching a player in the flesh where you can actually see what he's good at.
He also went on to say don’t scout a player too many times (more than two I think he said) else you start finding faults in them.
On Levy he said that he had backed every manager and the club had spent loads but probably badly in many cases and its the mangers who accept or ask for players not Levy saying I’ve got a player for you.
He also said fans do not understand what the running of club takes and all the financial issues, limitations that are not just football on the pitch related.
On Poch he said Mitchel told him Poch was offered full backing but said he was happy with his squad and needed no new blood hence no one came in.
He also said clubs should always bring one or two in every season to keep it fresh and challenge existing players.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 5 minutes ago
Slightly moving away from the Poch debate, it's interesting to see fans refer to his time as a success, but on the other hand some of the very same fans berate Levy/ENIC for not having won anything in 20 years and call their whole time a failure!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is definite inconsistency from fans, but with Levy we do lurch from strong periods to a mess.
Jol
Ramos
Redknapp
AVB/Sherwodd
Poch
Jose
Nuno
Conteand
Ange - ???
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By some fans I know you're alluding to me in this. That's fine. I understand the accusation based on seemingly contradictory stances but it's quite simple. Poch was successful, owed in part to some shrewd decisions on young players signed at club level, of that I give Levy credit, but what stopped Poch going again, what stopped him from really pushing to win a title - a lack of financial support from the board. A lot of fans on here are saying Poch was a failure, which I don't agree with, but if you could ever accuse of being one, it's because the board failed to back him when he needed it most. I'd say he was let down from 2017/18 onwards. You can still regard a manager as a success but still feel that those above could have done more to match his ambitions. Yes, the stadium had to be built and the circumstances were unfortunate there. The progress was almost too quick for the club in that regard but for me it is possible to separate the two. I can still hold Poch aloft but equally shame Levy at the same time. They're two different judgments. Things were poor before Poch came in and poor after he left so that tells you everything you need to know about who deserves the credit for that "success".
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
"On Poch he said Mitchel told him Poch was offered full backing but said he was happy with his squad and needed no new blood hence no one came in."
––––––––––––
Worth pointing out here Jimmy that this stance was taken by Poch BASED on the profile and budget Levy was offering him for new players. If you don't believe that the type of players within our financial reach are any better than those you already have, why would you spend? Poch gets bashed for this but as far as I'm concerned it's a failure of club ambition rather than his own. He's basically saying "I don't want substandard players warming the bench" and that's a criticism we've had as fans down the years too. I understand him completely.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gezza-Spurs (U18952)
posted 5 minutes ago
Slightly moving away from the Poch debate, it's interesting to see fans refer to his time as a success, but on the other hand some of the very same fans berate Levy/ENIC for not having won anything in 20 years and call their whole time a failure!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is definite inconsistency from fans, but with Levy we do lurch from strong periods to a mess.
Jol
Ramos
Redknapp
AVB/Sherwodd
Poch
Jose
Nuno
Conteand
Ange - ???
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By some fans I know you're alluding to me in this. That's fine. I understand the accusation based on seemingly contradictory stances but it's quite simple. Poch was successful, owed in part to some shrewd decisions on young players signed at club level, of that I give Levy credit, but what stopped Poch going again, what stopped him from really pushing to win a title - a lack of financial support from the board. A lot of fans on here are saying Poch was a failure, which I don't agree with, but if you could ever accuse of being one, it's because the board failed to back him when he needed it most. I'd say he was let down from 2017/18 onwards. You can still regard a manager as a success but still feel that those above could have done more to match his ambitions. Yes, the stadium had to be built and the circumstances were unfortunate there. The progress was almost too quick for the club in that regard but for me it is possible to separate the two. I can still hold Poch aloft but equally shame Levy at the same time. They're two different judgments. Things were poor before Poch came in and poor after he left so that tells you everything you need to know about who deserves the credit for that "success".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You are pretty fair in your view, but i do think most people ignore the context of the stadium when looking at what we could spend.
There is no doubt that transfer-less season stagnated the squad and well before the UCL final things were starting to unravel.
The following summer saw unprecedented backing of the manager.
In all of that, what i see as the worst decision, was not a lack of backing (because that was also Poch's choice) but that the zero transfer spending was not factored in when assessing our poor form.
It was an early season sacking which Levy probably thought left us enough time to recover a top 4 challenge, and despite Jose's style, he was a very high profile top level manager.
The mistake was an old one by Levy, chasing top 4, instead of playing the long game and perhaps accepting a season in the Ropey. With the new stadium I think his ego also wanted to show it off in the top euro competition.
All things considered, despite a long period of poor form, we should have stuck with Poch and it is without doubt Levy's biggest mistake. How he sacked Jol was his most deplorable action!
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 2 minutes ago
"On Poch he said Mitchel told him Poch was offered full backing but said he was happy with his squad and needed no new blood hence no one came in."
––––––––––––
Worth pointing out here Jimmy that this stance was taken by Poch BASED on the profile and budget Levy was offering him for new players. If you don't believe that the type of players within our financial reach are any better than those you already have, why would you spend? Poch gets bashed for this but as far as I'm concerned it's a failure of club ambition rather than his own. He's basically saying "I don't want substandard players warming the bench" and that's a criticism we've had as fans down the years too. I understand him completely.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yes, I agree no point bringing in similar level players who would sit on the bench but they way Pleat said it was suggesting Mitchel was saying who do you want in to Poch.
So interesting to because who is telling the truth or BS in the scenario.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 minutes ago
"On Poch he said Mitchel told him Poch was offered full backing but said he was happy with his squad and needed no new blood hence no one came in."
––––––––––––
Worth pointing out here Jimmy that this stance was taken by Poch BASED on the profile and budget Levy was offering him for new players. If you don't believe that the type of players within our financial reach are any better than those you already have, why would you spend? Poch gets bashed for this but as far as I'm concerned it's a failure of club ambition rather than his own. He's basically saying "I don't want substandard players warming the bench" and that's a criticism we've had as fans down the years too. I understand him completely.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But that was during the stadium build, which went on for 9 months longer than thought. he following summer when we were able to spend, we spent big and i think we all hoped we had found Dembele's replacement in NDomb and Eriksen's in GLC. It looks a very strong squad after that window.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 3 hours,
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
Poch should not just be judged on his five years at Spurs, he should also be judged on the five years since he left Spurs, where he also has done next to nothing. That's 10 years where all he won was a couple of trophies in a pub league in France.
Top managers don't end up in the USA, they are in big demand in Europe.
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He did a great job with Southampton before joining us, was the best manager we've had for a generation, and the stats more than back that up, and he then made two errors joining circus clubs in PSG and Chelsea.
I've already had this debate with you Sandy and we're never going to agree but measuring Poch's talents based on his career post-Spurs is unfair without the context of what was going on at those clubs at the time. At PSG he had a front line unwilling to do work off the ball, such was their taste for lazy superstars at the time. He was constantly undermined by Leonardo as Sporting Director too. The politics at that club were turbulent to say the least. Then he went to Chelsea and we all know how much they messed up in the market at the time. They're only now getting it right.
Fans like you don't deserve those nights against Ajax, City, Madrid etc. You take every single opportunity to bash Poch without taking into account club finances at that time and a complete disregard for squad evolution at board level. He's a manager, not a miracle worker.
So much disrespect. You'd expect that in the five years since he's gone, you'd have gained a little perspective on what a good job he did considering how far we've fallen but no, you're just one of those characters that doesn't have the maturity to admit when he's wrong, even though internally you know you are. Yes, it was going wrong, yes, the away form in the final year was poor and yes, it probably was worth considering a change for all parties (although I prefer to lean on the idea that he had enough credit in the bank to stay on and rebuild) but to not even look back with any fondness at all is just a joke.
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Cannot agree at all. You lot can go on a***se licking Poch intil eternity. Bottom line is Spurs should have won something under him. That they didn't has to be on him. He had the tools, just didn't know how to use them properly. Same at PSG, where he was an abject failure. He also had Chelsea sitting in something like 12th/13th for most of the season, after spending a fortune.
Sorry, but nothing on his CV puts him as anything other than a very average manager, that somehow managed to get some top jobs in football. He obviously knew how to do a job interview. I will give him that.
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This is just laughable. If that's what you genuinely think then there's no point in continuing this debate any further. I'd rather have this discussion with someone enough intelligence to recognise that success isn't black or white. There's different degrees of success. All I know is that he's come closer than anybody to the promised land than any manager since probably Keith Burkinshaw and nobody, no one in our 100+ year history has got us to a European Cup final. Just think about that. The pinnacle of club football and we very nearly won it. Now we're hoping against hope of winning the Europa League. You see the difference?
What strikes me as bizarre is that when Jose came in you were happy, when Conte came in you were happy. You got your winning manager but at no point in those catastrophic five years since Poch was sacked have you ever thought "maybe I got that one wrong". It's remarkable. Objectively and statistically you were wrong so to double down on that attitude now is just childish.
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That run to the CL final was riddled with extraordinary luck. Spurs shouldn't even have got out of the group that season. Lost their first two matches, and if Barcelona had not put out a severely weakened team in their last match at home to Spurs, then doubtful Spurs would have got a draw. As it was Inter also were expected to comfortably beat PSV at home on the same evening, that they didn't meant Spurs sneaked through on goal difference.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 23 hours, 55 minutes ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 2 minutes ago
4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th. League Cup Final, European Cup Final. All dealing with the club's financial constraints due to the stadium, 2 seasons without a home. If that's not success I don't know what is.
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Erm actual trophies = success. What world are you in?
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I live in a world where people are rational enough to understand that success in football is measured by a number of factors, i.e average league position prior to taking a job, wage bill, transfer spend and not just a feckin tin pot. Are you telling me that if Fabian Hürzeler steers Brighton to 2nd place and a final in both domestic cup competitions that wouldn't constitute success? I actually question your sanity if you don't. Honestly.
Success to me is measured by the mean average of a club prior to a manager's arrival. If the new manager's achievements sit a fair distance above that marker, he's successful. Your understanding of success means on handful of clubs in world football can describe themselves as successful.
Everyone is different though. I heard someone ages ago saying that the run to the League Cup Final in 1999 and eventually winning it was better than our run to the European Cup Final in 2019. I find that astonishing. An unlucky loss in the final owed to a decision in the first two minutes that ultimately changed the game will not diminish the absolute wonder of that run to get there. That City game away and then the comeback against Ajax for me will live longer in the memory than Nielsen's goal in that final against Leicester. I had to look up the scorer. That says everything. Success doesn't always mean trophies. Success is about happy memories and that, for me, is what football is really all about. Only the younger fan, the post-Jose types measure success by trophies. It's a modern trope but frankly it's complete bolllllocks!
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Seriously what a load of tripe. Beating Chelsea in the 2008 league cup final, and seeing Spurs players running around with a trophy beats playing in a CL final, and not turning up and losing.
I switched the TV off when Liverpool went 2-0 up. When Spurs beat Chelsea in 2008 I was tuned in until the show had finished. Nothing beats winning.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
I'm gonna picket your funeral with an I LOVE POCH placard.
Its what you would have wanted.
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 40 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 23 hours, 55 minutes ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 2 minutes ago
4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th. League Cup Final, European Cup Final. All dealing with the club's financial constraints due to the stadium, 2 seasons without a home. If that's not success I don't know what is.
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Erm actual trophies = success. What world are you in?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I live in a world where people are rational enough to understand that success in football is measured by a number of factors, i.e average league position prior to taking a job, wage bill, transfer spend and not just a feckin tin pot. Are you telling me that if Fabian Hürzeler steers Brighton to 2nd place and a final in both domestic cup competitions that wouldn't constitute success? I actually question your sanity if you don't. Honestly.
Success to me is measured by the mean average of a club prior to a manager's arrival. If the new manager's achievements sit a fair distance above that marker, he's successful. Your understanding of success means on handful of clubs in world football can describe themselves as successful.
Everyone is different though. I heard someone ages ago saying that the run to the League Cup Final in 1999 and eventually winning it was better than our run to the European Cup Final in 2019. I find that astonishing. An unlucky loss in the final owed to a decision in the first two minutes that ultimately changed the game will not diminish the absolute wonder of that run to get there. That City game away and then the comeback against Ajax for me will live longer in the memory than Nielsen's goal in that final against Leicester. I had to look up the scorer. That says everything. Success doesn't always mean trophies. Success is about happy memories and that, for me, is what football is really all about. Only the younger fan, the post-Jose types measure success by trophies. It's a modern trope but frankly it's complete bolllllocks!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seriously what a load of tripe. Beating Chelsea in the 2008 league cup final, and seeing Spurs players running around with a trophy beats playing in a CL final, and not turning up and losing.
I switched the TV off when Liverpool went 2-0 up. When Spurs beat Chelsea in 2008 I was tuned in until the show had finished. Nothing beats winning.
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The most successful manager at Spurs since Burkinshaw, its all relevant Sandy, can't hate him for that
posted 1 month, 1 day ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 57 minutes ago
I'm gonna picket your funeral with an I LOVE POCH placard.
Its what you would have wanted.
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I may outlive you.
posted 1 month ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 5 hours, 1 minute ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 57 minutes ago
I'm gonna picket your funeral with an I LOVE POCH placard.
Its what you would have wanted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I may outlive you.
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Yeah, you should always go to other people's funerals, otherwise......................................
they won't come to yours!
posted 1 month ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 17 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 23 hours, 55 minutes ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 2 minutes ago
4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th. League Cup Final, European Cup Final. All dealing with the club's financial constraints due to the stadium, 2 seasons without a home. If that's not success I don't know what is.
----------
Erm actual trophies = success. What world are you in?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I live in a world where people are rational enough to understand that success in football is measured by a number of factors, i.e average league position prior to taking a job, wage bill, transfer spend and not just a feckin tin pot. Are you telling me that if Fabian Hürzeler steers Brighton to 2nd place and a final in both domestic cup competitions that wouldn't constitute success? I actually question your sanity if you don't. Honestly.
Success to me is measured by the mean average of a club prior to a manager's arrival. If the new manager's achievements sit a fair distance above that marker, he's successful. Your understanding of success means on handful of clubs in world football can describe themselves as successful.
Everyone is different though. I heard someone ages ago saying that the run to the League Cup Final in 1999 and eventually winning it was better than our run to the European Cup Final in 2019. I find that astonishing. An unlucky loss in the final owed to a decision in the first two minutes that ultimately changed the game will not diminish the absolute wonder of that run to get there. That City game away and then the comeback against Ajax for me will live longer in the memory than Nielsen's goal in that final against Leicester. I had to look up the scorer. That says everything. Success doesn't always mean trophies. Success is about happy memories and that, for me, is what football is really all about. Only the younger fan, the post-Jose types measure success by trophies. It's a modern trope but frankly it's complete bolllllocks!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seriously what a load of tripe. Beating Chelsea in the 2008 league cup final, and seeing Spurs players running around with a trophy beats playing in a CL final, and not turning up and losing.
I switched the TV off when Liverpool went 2-0 up. When Spurs beat Chelsea in 2008 I was tuned in until the show had finished. Nothing beats winning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Winning matters when you are in competitions like that and in the later stages but success isn't only measured by winning. You can definitely still have success without winning trophies. Nobody for instance would say Emery hasn't been a success at Villa for getting them in the top 4 for the first time in decades from when he took over. Poch was also successful in the way he got us consecutive top 4 finishes and a CL final. He achieved more than Ramos did, even though Ramos won a cup final. It's why he lasted as long as he did and Ramos only lasted a season.
If Ange goes on to win a league cup but we finish mid-table and he gets sacked, I'd say the same there. Ange will have done well but it won't match what Poch achieved overall. He'd need to do more than that.
posted 1 month ago
Emery and Poch's tenures are/were fun times.
Let's not devalue the word Success hey.
posted 1 month ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 1 hour, 43 minutes ago
Emery and Poch's tenures are/were fun times.
Let's not devalue the word Success hey.
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Get in the bin! You tell us all not to devalue success completely oblivious to your penchant for overplaying the word failure.
You speak utter nonsense.
posted 1 month ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Luka Bosh Brasi (U22178)
posted 1 hour, 43 minutes ago
Emery and Poch's tenures are/were fun times.
Let's not devalue the word Success hey.
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Get in the bin! You tell us all not to devalue success completely oblivious to your penchant for overplaying the word failure.
You speak utter nonsense.
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Ok, carry on basking in the successfull Poch era 😂😂😂 #ZeroTrophies.
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