no...... just make them see that racism is wrong. Im not trying to corrupt them. And yes, racist need better education.

And yes, racist need better education

As do the purveyors of any discrimination

Lets start with the Muslims shall we, their hatred of the Jews is far worse than anything Terry has done.

I know its based on an age old religious book, but surely that's no excuse.

Redblack
“I’m not trying to corrupt them… just to see a moral truth that is beyond them.” That’s a vision held by many in history, from liberal thinkers to dictators!
You don’t see it as corruption but education. In the 1930s people were being educated on the effects of having Jewish people in society…

Sandsend – I agree completely. Intolerance and discrimination based on religion, gender, hair colour, size of feet are all as bad as race. If discrimination is wrong then it has to be all discrimination… it is all or none… you can’t discriminate on discrimination… that makes no sense!

/\

Hi RRP.

In the 1930s people were being educated on the effects of having Jewish people in society…
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Yes by racists. This is my point exactly. If you are not careful the lunatics can take over the asylum. And what did it take to reverse it!

I think you are going down a rocky path if you are trying to muddy the endeavours of anti racists to make society a better place with the 'both sides are just as bad as each other', routine. Fundamentally, one is a force of evil and one is a force of good.

Im not a bleeding heart, liberal, lefty, far from it , but that doesn't make me immune from being able to see that racism is destructive in a multi-racial society, such as the UK. life is far too short to feel uncomfortable living amongst people with a darker or lighter shade of skin that yourself.

I cant say anymore on this subject now. I accept that you might think that I am too PC and sensitive, but by the same token I think that many people are ignorant and insensitive to how much hurt and a feeling of exclusion a few words can make to peoples lives. And neither the twain shall meet, I suppose.

Lets start with the Muslims shall we, their hatred of the Jews is far worse than anything Terry has done.
*****
this is about religion and not race. A completely different discussion.

Redblack
OK… my point was that you believe you are right. They believed they are right. You haven’t actually argued why you are right at all… you have just asserted that it is right.
It is clear you do believe in a single moral truth – as you believe in “good” and “evil”. If someone else has a different opinion of what makes good and evil does that mean they are wrong? Does that mean their opinion isn’t valid… just because it differs to yours? Or is it because your opinion is in the majority that makes it right? In which case when more people were racist (say 200 years ago) racism wasn’t wrong?
I’m not trying to say both sides are as bad as each other… I’m just trying to get to the logic behind your argument that’s all. There doesn’t seem to be any!
Racism is destructive in a multi-racial society… in the same way that sexism is, and gingerism is right?
I don’t think it’s a case of being ignorant to the sensitivity of others, I understand about the hurt words can make. What I’m saying is that the hurt for racist abuse is much like the hurt gingers, bald people tall people and others get. Racism should not be put on a pedestal – it is ridiculous to think it should! Gingers are not less sensitive than black people yet they can be subjected to a similar amount of abuse… and quite often gingers will actually be given the nickname of Ginger and take no offence to it. Why is that?

this is about religion and not race. A completely different discussion.

If you look you'll see I did say discrimination of any kind, I include these ridiculous ancient group hugs, which cause more discrimination and hatred than anything

Discrimination on religious grounds is fine but racism is bad! lol

I don wonder if this is actually a wind up!

Firstly if we are debating the merits of Racial Discrimination V Religious Discrimination I find it hard to justify taking one side over the other.

But i would say the Jew v Muslim issue is these days equally about race as it is religion.

My wife if Jewish and from Hungary but she is no way particularly religious. She is Jewish by birth,so for me that makes it a race issue.

Might I add that makes our children Jewish by birth too even though I am an Agnostic.

There doesn’t seem to be any!
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dont be cheap.

I find racism illogical you dont . Ok, lets leave it at that,

Apologies Redblack - I didn't mean to sound offensive.

I meant it literally I actually don't see the logic...

Although it seems I haven't made my point very well. I'm not saying that racism isn't illogical. I would agree with you on that front probably in most cases. What I'm trying to highlight is that it is as illogical as other forms of discrimination - there is no logical reason why racial discrimination and racial abuse is worse than other forms of discrimination and abuse.

Again apologies - no offence intended - this has been a good discussion/thread - I am not intending to bring it down!

The point is though that because I have argued against you - you have assumed that I find racism logical or have been trying to condone it. For some reason when discussing racism people don't actually look at what is being said, but instead there is a knee jerk reaction to the issue - and that is not right.

Interesting thread, with some disturbing cmoments from both 'sides' of the argument. Racism is ugly, but I really think the second(ish) post on this thread summed up the answer, a racist comment does not make someone necessarily a racist. We all say stuff in the heat of the moment, and to label someone based on this sort of outburst does nothing more than open the scism, not erradicate it (which I doubt you ever will by the way).

"Lets start with the Muslims shall we, their hatred of the Jews is far worse than anything Terry has done."

I've really got to pick you up on this, 'The Muslims' do not hate 'The Jews' - they've lived together longer than most quite happily. The problem is 'Israel', a manufactured state foisted upon both by outsiders with (supposedly) the best intentions and the most unfortunate of outcomes - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

It's this sort of 'Muslims hate Jews' ignorant generalisations (no offence, but it is ignorant) that are at the heart of most of the arguments in this thread - please let's not help reenforce another one.

"Lets start with the Muslims shall we, their hatred of the Jews is far worse than anything Terry has done.

I know its based on an age old religious book, but surely that's no excuse."

I don't condone hate. But do you see what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians?

Sure not all Jews are like that. And a lot of them are against it. But a lot of the hate stems from that, it seems.

Oh, btw, to say you're 'not aware' of Lenny Henry stereotyping is ridiculous - his entire career in the 80's was based on taking off Jamaican/African immigrent stereotypes. Much the same a Jim Davidson's was - I'm not making any comment on the rights and/or wrongs of either person's act, but to deny it is plain stupid.

Henrys cat

So nowhere in their religious book does it tell the true believers to attack the Jew

If I have that wrong, Apologies, but it's what I was led to believe, I must have a look on line

HenrysCat

I might be wrong but I don’t think the comment was meant that the religious intolerance is only one way… I think it was just an example of religious tolerance – you could choose any number of examples, Catholics to Protestants, Protestants to Catholics, Muslims to Jews, Jews to Muslims… basically anyone against anyone!

The point is religious hatred is just as bad as racial, surely?

Agree about Lenny Henry - I think the more blatant racial discrimination is that a white comedian doing such jokes would be racist, whereas because he is black is is acceptable. If people do think that then that is a form of racism in itself.

"So nowhere in their religious book does it tell the true believers to attack the Jew "

At the risk of being contradicted, I'm fairly sure 'the Jew' is not mentioned once. There is a lot of talk about 'non believers' being damned/mis-guided/wretched, etc but show me a religious text where this isn't the case and I'll be really quite suprised.

"The point is religious hatred is just as bad as racial, surely?"

Exactly, I think that if all people really were born equal (same colour/size/shape) it wouldn't take long for vast tracts of land to be divided on what colour shoes you wear. We're animals, we can't help it. When there is no division we invent one anyway, just look at teenagers, why do they all dress so bad if not to create their own identity?

Almost like animals, being territorial over what we perceive as ours/what defines us and see it as therefore somehow 'better'.

Much like some people view their team's board on here.

What the hell is that meant to mean BB?

I take it that is a comment on a different thread - maybe it should have stayed on that thread.

Not at all! I was taking your metaphor one step further when you mentioned humans creating a divide when there isn't one. It's natural, I think - we like to separate ourselves into 'communities' where we feel safe and accepted, and then become possessive over it, believing that, because we are part of it, it must be better than all others.

Apply it to religion, nationality, fashion sense, music taste, football support - anything, really. The belief that we are better because of something we are/have and which others lack is what leads to discrimination.

That probably made little more sense than the previous post, but at least I know what I mean.

Ah right - yes, football fans create their own divide. I don't think that if you recognise a divide you necessarily assume your 'group' is best. Surely a Plymouth Argyle fan can see the ManU board is superior, just as all fans recognise the Arsenal board as number one.

No it is a valid point.
With some people’s interpretation of racism meaning you can’t mention race… and the extension of that to other areas (religion… culture… region… even football team) how long will it be until you can’t boo an opposition team? How long until you can’t boo an opposition player? And how long until you can’t cheer your own side?
Obviously that sounds ridiculous… but is that the theoretical extreme of what some people are saying?

Surely a Plymouth Argyle fan can see the ManU board is superior, just as all fans recognise the Arsenal board as number one.
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Ahh but a Plymouth fan will set his own criteria to make that evaluation and it will most likely be a different criteria than that of a Man U fan.

For example when Chelsea were winning trophies and Arsenal were not an Arsenal´s fans criteria switches focus away from on the pitch success to financial stability and past success to justify the continued allegiance.

This is just an example by the way not a wum or dig just trying to explain the dynamic.