You're relying on one of freak results, Germany are and always have been a superior side, Jesus they reached the world cup final in 2002 with one of their worst sides in history
Buzz, to be fair to us, we were better than Germany in 2002. I remember how optimistic I was about that tournament but again injuries cost us.
Just before the tournament we lost Gerrard and Neville and Beckham and Owen played with injuries. Had everyone been fit i'm 100% we would have made the final (and avoided Brazil till then) and who knows in a final.
I'm gonna ask you and using all your football knowledge do you think if we had played Germany tonight we would have conceded 4?
Id guess you'd be beat on penalties, there are too many ifs and buts in your statement, do you not think all the other countries that are home now have got the same regrets, fact is Germany have won lots of trophies and been beathen in a few finals, they are heavyweights, England aren't
Yeah, and I wanna make clear that I don't think England are a great team but I do think that Germany are overrated at this moment in time.
In 2010 they scored 4 against England and Argentina but as soon as they played Spain they wen't into their shell and parked the bus and lost.
Tonight, in their first tough knock out game they were extremely poor and genuinely could have conceded 5 or 6.
All i'm trying to say is that Germany, until they do anything of note, can't be classed as miles ahead of England until they stop being chokers.
Look at Bayern in the past 3 seasons. Lost 2 finals including one on their own turf against a poor Chelsea team.
England team 2012 WC
Hart
Walker Smalling Cahill Fryers
Lennon Powell Cleverley Wiltshere Ox
Welbeck/Sturridge/Rooney
Totally unproven but meh, gotta try something new eh?
Hopefully Roy will login to JA606 tomorrow to see this
Greg
I like that team, but I don't think Cole should be dropped. He's still our only true world class player and though he'll be 33 in 2014 I don't think he'll drop in quality that much.
My team would be
Hart
Johnson Cahill Lescott Cole
Walcott Rodwell Wilshire Cleverley Ox
Welbeck
Germany are a great side and miles ahead of England. Both as a team, and the conveyabelt of players they have will continue to make that so.
But people really aren't given the Italians enough credit at this tournament. They've been the best team in the tournament and Pirlo the best player.
Germany weren't at their best, however, part of the reason is because Italy were too good for them. People say this Italy team is average, it they're average what does that make the rest of the teams?
I said at the start of the tournament Italy will have a chance of winning it. I put my money where my mouth is and bet they would, along with Pirlo for player of the tourament. Hopefully I'll get my reward.
>>it they're average what does that make the rest of the teams?
Other than Spain, most sides aren't that good or are in transition.
The dutch had an attack that should have gotten them to at least the semis regardless of how many they conceded.
They were a bit unlucky and a bit poor finishers.
France, Croatia, Germany, Netherlands, Portugal and Spain are all good sides. It's an insult to call Italy average.
>>It's an insult to call Italy average.
that was the intention
Darren
England have a great lot of talent coming through as well. The only difference between Germany and England is that Germany give them a chance.
For me there are 3 tiers of sides in Europe
Tier 1: Spain
Tier 2: Germany, Italy
Tier 3: England, France, Portugal, Croatia, Holland and Russia
Wilshire, Barry, Lampard, Bent (who would have gone), Cahill and Smalling.
==================================
tell me youre joking.
Lampard rubbish at this level. Wilsheres done nothing, ever. Barry's crap.
Bent
Cahill
Both dreadful.
Jesus, what cack you come out with.
Lampard and Cahill who just won the Champions league, Wilshire who would have offered us something different in the middle and who held his own against Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in the Champions League, Bent who scored the winner against Spain last November and Barry who just had a great season for Man City keeping De Jong out of the team.
They (along with Smalling) all would have made the squad but were injured. If you don't think that they would have been better options than Jones, Henderson, Defoe, Kelly, Downing and Parker then you're the one talking cack.
The fact is that we had 6 definite squad members out injured and Germany had none out and they only got one round further than us.
ampard and Cahill who just won the Champions league
================================
Whilst surrounded by a lot of very good foreign players. Lampards always been terrible for england. And has always been terrible full stop when not having two midfielders behind him doing his donkey work. Him not going was one of the best things to happen to england in a long time.
Wilshere did no such thing. How exactly did he hold his own? What exactly did he achieve?
, Wilshire who would have offered us something different in the middle and who held his own against Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in the Champions League,
Bent who scored the winner against Spain last November
=========================
In a friendly game that spain didnt really give a toss about, well done him. What's he ever done at int level when it matters, bar miss chance after chance? theres a reason he has never made it at a top club.
r and Barry who just had a great season for Man City keeping De Jong out of the team.
They (along with Smalling) all would have made the squad but were injured. If you don't think that they would have been better options than Jones, Henderson, Defoe, Kelly, Downing and Parker then you're the one talking cack.
The fact is that we had 6 definite squad members out injured and Germany had none out and they only got one round further than us.
I rate Jones higher than Smalling despite having gone off the boil
Smalling gets caught ball watching and looks behind the play too often for me
Jones just needs to settle and control his discipline. He'll be class.
Smalling will just be a decent player.
funrob, there you go, overrating England. What we need in this country is acceptance. Acceptance that we are nowhere near the rest of Europe, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil.
We have some decent young talent, but none that really compare to the young talent these top footballing nations have.
Of the teams you have said, England are only ahead of Russia, and even then they're a lot more comfortable in possession than we are so could still give us a game.
Stretty
Wilshire played central midfield against Barcelona in 2011 and starred as Arsenal beat them in the Champions League.
And Lampard has done well for England. Remember his goal against Germany that wasn't given in 2010? Remember him being supporters player of the year? His goals against France and Portugal in Euro 2004.
Anyway, who would you have in your squad? Him or Henderson. My point being that England went into this tournament without their best squad.
ilshire played central midfield against Barcelona in 2011 and starred as Arsenal beat them in the Champions League.
====================================
He did not "star" Xavi and Iniesta shredded arsenal that night. If the ref had done his job barca would of been 3 up aftwe 50 mins. He was made look like a school boy.
And Lampard has done well for England. Remember his goal against Germany that wasn't given in 2010? Remember him being supporters player of the year? His goals against France and Portugal in Euro 2004.
========================================
You are the only one with that opinion, everyone knows that lampard has been appauling for england and him and gerrard have never played well together.
>>Xavi and Iniesta shredded arsenal that night.
agreed
getting a result isn't the same as putting in a performance
Stretty, we'll just have to agree to disagree mate!
Gerrard and Lampard's goals have always papered over their deficiencies as cm's. They'll have a poor game and get outplayed in the centre but will score or set up a goal from a corner and people forget about it.
It's been going on for years. But they've been continually found out at international level as they haven't got their more talented foreign team mates to bail them out.
In England people look at the stats and the results and use them to justify the hype around the player. Look at the performances and you'll get an accurate idea of these footballers.
Sign in if you want to comment
England weren't that bad after all.
Page 2 of 3
posted on 28/6/12
You're relying on one of freak results, Germany are and always have been a superior side, Jesus they reached the world cup final in 2002 with one of their worst sides in history
posted on 28/6/12
Buzz, to be fair to us, we were better than Germany in 2002. I remember how optimistic I was about that tournament but again injuries cost us.
Just before the tournament we lost Gerrard and Neville and Beckham and Owen played with injuries. Had everyone been fit i'm 100% we would have made the final (and avoided Brazil till then) and who knows in a final.
I'm gonna ask you and using all your football knowledge do you think if we had played Germany tonight we would have conceded 4?
posted on 28/6/12
Id guess you'd be beat on penalties, there are too many ifs and buts in your statement, do you not think all the other countries that are home now have got the same regrets, fact is Germany have won lots of trophies and been beathen in a few finals, they are heavyweights, England aren't
posted on 28/6/12
Yeah, and I wanna make clear that I don't think England are a great team but I do think that Germany are overrated at this moment in time.
In 2010 they scored 4 against England and Argentina but as soon as they played Spain they wen't into their shell and parked the bus and lost.
Tonight, in their first tough knock out game they were extremely poor and genuinely could have conceded 5 or 6.
All i'm trying to say is that Germany, until they do anything of note, can't be classed as miles ahead of England until they stop being chokers.
Look at Bayern in the past 3 seasons. Lost 2 finals including one on their own turf against a poor Chelsea team.
posted on 28/6/12
*went
posted on 28/6/12
England team 2012 WC
Hart
Walker Smalling Cahill Fryers
Lennon Powell Cleverley Wiltshere Ox
Welbeck/Sturridge/Rooney
Totally unproven but meh, gotta try something new eh?
Hopefully Roy will login to JA606 tomorrow to see this
posted on 28/6/12
sorry, 2014 WC
posted on 28/6/12
Greg
I like that team, but I don't think Cole should be dropped. He's still our only true world class player and though he'll be 33 in 2014 I don't think he'll drop in quality that much.
My team would be
Hart
Johnson Cahill Lescott Cole
Walcott Rodwell Wilshire Cleverley Ox
Welbeck
posted on 28/6/12
Germany are a great side and miles ahead of England. Both as a team, and the conveyabelt of players they have will continue to make that so.
But people really aren't given the Italians enough credit at this tournament. They've been the best team in the tournament and Pirlo the best player.
Germany weren't at their best, however, part of the reason is because Italy were too good for them. People say this Italy team is average, it they're average what does that make the rest of the teams?
I said at the start of the tournament Italy will have a chance of winning it. I put my money where my mouth is and bet they would, along with Pirlo for player of the tourament. Hopefully I'll get my reward.
posted on 28/6/12
>>it they're average what does that make the rest of the teams?
Other than Spain, most sides aren't that good or are in transition.
posted on 28/6/12
The dutch had an attack that should have gotten them to at least the semis regardless of how many they conceded.
They were a bit unlucky and a bit poor finishers.
posted on 28/6/12
France, Croatia, Germany, Netherlands, Portugal and Spain are all good sides. It's an insult to call Italy average.
posted on 28/6/12
>>It's an insult to call Italy average.
that was the intention
posted on 28/6/12
Darren
England have a great lot of talent coming through as well. The only difference between Germany and England is that Germany give them a chance.
For me there are 3 tiers of sides in Europe
Tier 1: Spain
Tier 2: Germany, Italy
Tier 3: England, France, Portugal, Croatia, Holland and Russia
posted on 28/6/12
Wilshire, Barry, Lampard, Bent (who would have gone), Cahill and Smalling.
==================================
tell me youre joking.
Lampard rubbish at this level. Wilsheres done nothing, ever. Barry's crap.
Bent
Cahill
Both dreadful.
Jesus, what cack you come out with.
posted on 28/6/12
(3 tiers of good sides)
posted on 29/6/12
Lampard and Cahill who just won the Champions league, Wilshire who would have offered us something different in the middle and who held his own against Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in the Champions League, Bent who scored the winner against Spain last November and Barry who just had a great season for Man City keeping De Jong out of the team.
They (along with Smalling) all would have made the squad but were injured. If you don't think that they would have been better options than Jones, Henderson, Defoe, Kelly, Downing and Parker then you're the one talking cack.
The fact is that we had 6 definite squad members out injured and Germany had none out and they only got one round further than us.
posted on 29/6/12
ampard and Cahill who just won the Champions league
================================
Whilst surrounded by a lot of very good foreign players. Lampards always been terrible for england. And has always been terrible full stop when not having two midfielders behind him doing his donkey work. Him not going was one of the best things to happen to england in a long time.
Wilshere did no such thing. How exactly did he hold his own? What exactly did he achieve?
, Wilshire who would have offered us something different in the middle and who held his own against Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in the Champions League,
Bent who scored the winner against Spain last November
=========================
In a friendly game that spain didnt really give a toss about, well done him. What's he ever done at int level when it matters, bar miss chance after chance? theres a reason he has never made it at a top club.
r and Barry who just had a great season for Man City keeping De Jong out of the team.
They (along with Smalling) all would have made the squad but were injured. If you don't think that they would have been better options than Jones, Henderson, Defoe, Kelly, Downing and Parker then you're the one talking cack.
The fact is that we had 6 definite squad members out injured and Germany had none out and they only got one round further than us.
posted on 29/6/12
I rate Jones higher than Smalling despite having gone off the boil
Smalling gets caught ball watching and looks behind the play too often for me
Jones just needs to settle and control his discipline. He'll be class.
Smalling will just be a decent player.
posted on 29/6/12
funrob, there you go, overrating England. What we need in this country is acceptance. Acceptance that we are nowhere near the rest of Europe, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil.
We have some decent young talent, but none that really compare to the young talent these top footballing nations have.
Of the teams you have said, England are only ahead of Russia, and even then they're a lot more comfortable in possession than we are so could still give us a game.
posted on 29/6/12
Stretty
Wilshire played central midfield against Barcelona in 2011 and starred as Arsenal beat them in the Champions League.
And Lampard has done well for England. Remember his goal against Germany that wasn't given in 2010? Remember him being supporters player of the year? His goals against France and Portugal in Euro 2004.
Anyway, who would you have in your squad? Him or Henderson. My point being that England went into this tournament without their best squad.
posted on 29/6/12
ilshire played central midfield against Barcelona in 2011 and starred as Arsenal beat them in the Champions League.
====================================
He did not "star" Xavi and Iniesta shredded arsenal that night. If the ref had done his job barca would of been 3 up aftwe 50 mins. He was made look like a school boy.
And Lampard has done well for England. Remember his goal against Germany that wasn't given in 2010? Remember him being supporters player of the year? His goals against France and Portugal in Euro 2004.
========================================
You are the only one with that opinion, everyone knows that lampard has been appauling for england and him and gerrard have never played well together.
posted on 29/6/12
>>Xavi and Iniesta shredded arsenal that night.
agreed
getting a result isn't the same as putting in a performance
posted on 29/6/12
Stretty, we'll just have to agree to disagree mate!
posted on 29/6/12
Gerrard and Lampard's goals have always papered over their deficiencies as cm's. They'll have a poor game and get outplayed in the centre but will score or set up a goal from a corner and people forget about it.
It's been going on for years. But they've been continually found out at international level as they haven't got their more talented foreign team mates to bail them out.
In England people look at the stats and the results and use them to justify the hype around the player. Look at the performances and you'll get an accurate idea of these footballers.
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