thats the problem RR, there are too many of the "fergie can do no wrong" brigade, and sadly, more and more shall we say strange selections and decisions have happend over the last couple of years.
comment by duncanedwards_legend (U11713)
Ok fair enough, Fergie did come out and say that he may have got the tactics wrong that game and I'm not disputing that, I'm talking about the majority of games where we dominated the game and ultimately won the match.
Ok fair enough, Fergie did come out and say that he may have got the tactics wrong that game and I'm not disputing that, I'm talking about the majority of games where we dominated the game and ultimately won the match
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there were a few mate, not denying that, but that was last season.
we have not dominated a single game this season yet, and thats the concerning part.
But I'm reluctant to go along with an arrogant assumption that we know better than a suddenly blind and incompetent manager.
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Your words, not mine. However, we are all seeing something he isn't. I knew we would get dominated on Saturday, as did many others. If that is me making arrogant assumptions then so be it. But they were the correct ones. Believe it or not, the present is not determined by the past, and in this instance, the manager's insistence on playing Scholes and Giggs is wrong, has been proven wrong and will continue to be proven wrong because they quite simply do not have the physical capacity to do what is required. We can get all philosophical here and say "this happened here and this happened then" but the cold facts are that Scholes, Giggs and Carrick in midfield doesn't work and Sir Alex Ferguson isn't going to prove that otherwise, as great as he is.
thats the problem RR, there are too many of the "fergie can do no wrong" brigade
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There is no such thing, I just think it's hasty to start questioning a man who has done so much for us after what? 1 loss in the last 7 or 6 matches, which we won by the way. It's not like we have been consistently struggling for the past few years is it, we have continuously been picking up silverware.
we have not dominated a single game this season yet, and thats the concerning part.
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Fulham? only a late goal put pressure on us.
Wigan? if 4-0 isn't dominating I'm not sure what is.
You have to agree with Duncan, even the Wigan game we didn't dominate, only in second half we played well.
But this hasn't been a surprise, we didn't play we'll pre season either.
The good thing is that we aren't in Liverpool's position, we a still right up there and played some tough games already.
A win at Newcastle and everything will look a lot more positive,
There is no such thing, I just think it's hasty to start questioning a man who has done so much for us after what? 1 loss in the last 7 or 6 matches, which we won by the way.
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thats the problem though mate, results in which we were lucky to get, ahve masked the fact that our performances have been poor this season.
at some point, like saturday, the luck will run out, and those games where we were scraping wins, will turn into defeats and draws.
Fulham? only a late goal put pressure on us.
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That first half of football was the best we have played this season because we pressed the ball and played as a unit. We could scored 5 or 6. That is what I want to see, and it is why I firmly believe that with a run of games, Cleverson has potential to be the answer to these 'problems'.
"but the cold facts are that Scholes, Giggs and Carrick in midfield doesn't work"
instead of stating that there are cold facts, why don't you tell us of some, the only game I can think of is the Tottenham game but all of this animosity can't have just built up over one game surely.
Fulham? only a late goal put pressure on us.
Wigan? if 4-0 isn't dominating I'm not sure what is.
--------------
fulham had their chances before they made it 3-2.
as for wigan, we struggled first half, then thwy just collapsed in the second, we didnt dominate them.
even the CL, which we were awful in last season ( again a lot through tactics and line-ups) has been no different.
despite nani's penalty miss we were lucky to get the win there too.
That first half of football was the best we have played this season because we pressed the ball and played as a unit. We could scored 5 or 6. That is what I want to see, and it is why I firmly believe that with a run of games, Cleverson has potential to be the answer to these 'problems'.
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Every united fan wants to see us play like this 90 minutes a match, but being realistic it's not going to happen, no one dominates for 90 minutes, if that were the case then the game would be boring. Also I don't know why you are assuming that Cleverson will grant us this, the grass is not always greener.
Scholes' tackling coach (U9713)
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You're right, it hasn't. It has stemmed from this insistence of playing Giggs and Scholes in matches they should not be playing in. Wigan, last season, was what did it for me, because Giggs shouldn't have been out there. Scholes should have been taken off after 60 against Everton and the City game was just a joke. Adding all of this to the fact that I have witnessed with my own eyes, some excellent performances from Cleverson is why myself, and many others, are frustrated.
Adding all of this to the fact that I have witnessed with my own eyes, some excellent performances from Cleverson is why myself, and many others, are frustrated.
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this
Yes but do you not think that perhaps we have seen Cleverson against weaker opposition or teams who are missing key players has almost blurred our judgement when it comes to them?
Also I don't know why you are assuming that Cleverson will grant us this, the grass is not always greener.
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Well we're going to have to try out some fresh grass sooner or later because Giggs and Scholes aren't going to be around forever. I don't understand what you are arguing or what you want to see? Do you genuinely believe that Scholes should be starting matches? Or that Cleverson cannot work? What is it you would like to see?
Yes but do you not think that perhaps we have seen Cleverson against weaker opposition or teams who are missing key players has almost blurred our judgement when it comes to them?
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as said earlier, cleverson was a big factor to our start last season, their ability to push on allowed us to be on the front foot the majority of the game, rather than having teams push on to us.
even against city, they matched the city midfield up until the sending off.
You know after all of this I have almost forgot what the initial argument was, what I would like to see is Anderson and Carrick in the centre with Scholes on in 60/70 if the midfield needs helps. What I was arguing is that Alex Ferguson has not 'lost it' as the OP has suggested, also I consider Scholes to be of a great asset to the team whilst Giggs on the other hand is not.
as said earlier, cleverson was a big factor to our start last season, their ability to push on allowed us to be on the front foot the majority of the game, rather than having teams push on to us.
even against city, they matched the city midfield up until the sending off.
-----------------
you haven't really answered my question in terms of the opposition, city were 2-0 up at half time and as you saw against tottenham the status quo shifts a lot as they decide to defend more. Arsenal were depleted and Tottenham were off the back of a loss, West Brom we struggled against and Bolton was a good performance but Cleverley was off in 6 mins. Do you not remember how weak we were defensively during those games?
Me too. Best of it is, I would agree with what you are suggesting. Carrick and Anderson are mobile enough to press and be effective. Scholes can do a job, but only when accomodated in a midfield three or coming on with 20 minutes to go to slow down the pace of a game. I just don't like the idea that 'Cleverson will never work' which is what the OP implied. This is because we have seen a lot of evidence to the contrary and our most attractive and best football has came with them in the side. It is unfair to right them off and they deserve a chance to put a run of games together. Surely you can agree with this? I also stand by that Carrick and Scholes doesn't work and if continued, will cost us dearly. I stand by this.
That was Fletcher and Anderson. But I get your point- we had the energy and mobility to actually control the first half.
I would never suggest that Cleverson will never work as I simply do not know, no one does, from the looks of it they could become a good pairing to be honest but in terms of the first team, no I don't believe they are as strong as Scholes and Carrick, and it seems as if SAF agrees
I would like to see the "younger" players given the chance to fail- play them and let's see what happens. I think that Carrick and Ando work perfectly but why not cleverson and Carrick in a trio?
I would like to see the "younger" players given the chance to fail-
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This is exactly what Fergie is scared of doing, he doesn't want them to fail as they are young and are more susceptible to the media and the fans. Also as Fergie continuously states, football is a results game.
I would like to see the "younger" players given the chance to fail- play them and let's see what happens. I think that Carrick and Ando work perfectly but why not cleverson and Carrick in a trio?
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i agree, it hough against newcastle last week (swapping carrick for fletcher) they played very well considering the lack of game time all three have had this season, there seemed to be a very good balance.
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What has happened to SAF
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posted on 1/10/12
thats the problem RR, there are too many of the "fergie can do no wrong" brigade, and sadly, more and more shall we say strange selections and decisions have happend over the last couple of years.
posted on 1/10/12
comment by duncanedwards_legend (U11713)
Ok fair enough, Fergie did come out and say that he may have got the tactics wrong that game and I'm not disputing that, I'm talking about the majority of games where we dominated the game and ultimately won the match.
posted on 1/10/12
Ok fair enough, Fergie did come out and say that he may have got the tactics wrong that game and I'm not disputing that, I'm talking about the majority of games where we dominated the game and ultimately won the match
---------------
there were a few mate, not denying that, but that was last season.
we have not dominated a single game this season yet, and thats the concerning part.
posted on 1/10/12
But I'm reluctant to go along with an arrogant assumption that we know better than a suddenly blind and incompetent manager.
--------
Your words, not mine. However, we are all seeing something he isn't. I knew we would get dominated on Saturday, as did many others. If that is me making arrogant assumptions then so be it. But they were the correct ones. Believe it or not, the present is not determined by the past, and in this instance, the manager's insistence on playing Scholes and Giggs is wrong, has been proven wrong and will continue to be proven wrong because they quite simply do not have the physical capacity to do what is required. We can get all philosophical here and say "this happened here and this happened then" but the cold facts are that Scholes, Giggs and Carrick in midfield doesn't work and Sir Alex Ferguson isn't going to prove that otherwise, as great as he is.
posted on 1/10/12
thats the problem RR, there are too many of the "fergie can do no wrong" brigade
-----------------
There is no such thing, I just think it's hasty to start questioning a man who has done so much for us after what? 1 loss in the last 7 or 6 matches, which we won by the way. It's not like we have been consistently struggling for the past few years is it, we have continuously been picking up silverware.
posted on 1/10/12
we have not dominated a single game this season yet, and thats the concerning part.
-----------------
Fulham? only a late goal put pressure on us.
Wigan? if 4-0 isn't dominating I'm not sure what is.
posted on 1/10/12
You have to agree with Duncan, even the Wigan game we didn't dominate, only in second half we played well.
But this hasn't been a surprise, we didn't play we'll pre season either.
The good thing is that we aren't in Liverpool's position, we a still right up there and played some tough games already.
A win at Newcastle and everything will look a lot more positive,
posted on 1/10/12
There is no such thing, I just think it's hasty to start questioning a man who has done so much for us after what? 1 loss in the last 7 or 6 matches, which we won by the way.
----------------------
thats the problem though mate, results in which we were lucky to get, ahve masked the fact that our performances have been poor this season.
at some point, like saturday, the luck will run out, and those games where we were scraping wins, will turn into defeats and draws.
posted on 1/10/12
Fulham? only a late goal put pressure on us.
---------
That first half of football was the best we have played this season because we pressed the ball and played as a unit. We could scored 5 or 6. That is what I want to see, and it is why I firmly believe that with a run of games, Cleverson has potential to be the answer to these 'problems'.
posted on 1/10/12
"but the cold facts are that Scholes, Giggs and Carrick in midfield doesn't work"
instead of stating that there are cold facts, why don't you tell us of some, the only game I can think of is the Tottenham game but all of this animosity can't have just built up over one game surely.
posted on 1/10/12
Fulham? only a late goal put pressure on us.
Wigan? if 4-0 isn't dominating I'm not sure what is.
--------------
fulham had their chances before they made it 3-2.
as for wigan, we struggled first half, then thwy just collapsed in the second, we didnt dominate them.
even the CL, which we were awful in last season ( again a lot through tactics and line-ups) has been no different.
despite nani's penalty miss we were lucky to get the win there too.
posted on 1/10/12
That first half of football was the best we have played this season because we pressed the ball and played as a unit. We could scored 5 or 6. That is what I want to see, and it is why I firmly believe that with a run of games, Cleverson has potential to be the answer to these 'problems'.
-------------------
Every united fan wants to see us play like this 90 minutes a match, but being realistic it's not going to happen, no one dominates for 90 minutes, if that were the case then the game would be boring. Also I don't know why you are assuming that Cleverson will grant us this, the grass is not always greener.
posted on 1/10/12
Scholes' tackling coach (U9713)
-------------
You're right, it hasn't. It has stemmed from this insistence of playing Giggs and Scholes in matches they should not be playing in. Wigan, last season, was what did it for me, because Giggs shouldn't have been out there. Scholes should have been taken off after 60 against Everton and the City game was just a joke. Adding all of this to the fact that I have witnessed with my own eyes, some excellent performances from Cleverson is why myself, and many others, are frustrated.
posted on 1/10/12
Adding all of this to the fact that I have witnessed with my own eyes, some excellent performances from Cleverson is why myself, and many others, are frustrated.
----------
this
posted on 1/10/12
Yes but do you not think that perhaps we have seen Cleverson against weaker opposition or teams who are missing key players has almost blurred our judgement when it comes to them?
posted on 1/10/12
Also I don't know why you are assuming that Cleverson will grant us this, the grass is not always greener.
------
Well we're going to have to try out some fresh grass sooner or later because Giggs and Scholes aren't going to be around forever. I don't understand what you are arguing or what you want to see? Do you genuinely believe that Scholes should be starting matches? Or that Cleverson cannot work? What is it you would like to see?
posted on 1/10/12
Yes but do you not think that perhaps we have seen Cleverson against weaker opposition or teams who are missing key players has almost blurred our judgement when it comes to them?
----------
as said earlier, cleverson was a big factor to our start last season, their ability to push on allowed us to be on the front foot the majority of the game, rather than having teams push on to us.
even against city, they matched the city midfield up until the sending off.
posted on 1/10/12
You know after all of this I have almost forgot what the initial argument was, what I would like to see is Anderson and Carrick in the centre with Scholes on in 60/70 if the midfield needs helps. What I was arguing is that Alex Ferguson has not 'lost it' as the OP has suggested, also I consider Scholes to be of a great asset to the team whilst Giggs on the other hand is not.
posted on 1/10/12
as said earlier, cleverson was a big factor to our start last season, their ability to push on allowed us to be on the front foot the majority of the game, rather than having teams push on to us.
even against city, they matched the city midfield up until the sending off.
-----------------
you haven't really answered my question in terms of the opposition, city were 2-0 up at half time and as you saw against tottenham the status quo shifts a lot as they decide to defend more. Arsenal were depleted and Tottenham were off the back of a loss, West Brom we struggled against and Bolton was a good performance but Cleverley was off in 6 mins. Do you not remember how weak we were defensively during those games?
posted on 1/10/12
Me too. Best of it is, I would agree with what you are suggesting. Carrick and Anderson are mobile enough to press and be effective. Scholes can do a job, but only when accomodated in a midfield three or coming on with 20 minutes to go to slow down the pace of a game. I just don't like the idea that 'Cleverson will never work' which is what the OP implied. This is because we have seen a lot of evidence to the contrary and our most attractive and best football has came with them in the side. It is unfair to right them off and they deserve a chance to put a run of games together. Surely you can agree with this? I also stand by that Carrick and Scholes doesn't work and if continued, will cost us dearly. I stand by this.
posted on 1/10/12
That was Fletcher and Anderson. But I get your point- we had the energy and mobility to actually control the first half.
posted on 1/10/12
I would never suggest that Cleverson will never work as I simply do not know, no one does, from the looks of it they could become a good pairing to be honest but in terms of the first team, no I don't believe they are as strong as Scholes and Carrick, and it seems as if SAF agrees
posted on 1/10/12
I would like to see the "younger" players given the chance to fail- play them and let's see what happens. I think that Carrick and Ando work perfectly but why not cleverson and Carrick in a trio?
posted on 1/10/12
I would like to see the "younger" players given the chance to fail-
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This is exactly what Fergie is scared of doing, he doesn't want them to fail as they are young and are more susceptible to the media and the fans. Also as Fergie continuously states, football is a results game.
posted on 1/10/12
I would like to see the "younger" players given the chance to fail- play them and let's see what happens. I think that Carrick and Ando work perfectly but why not cleverson and Carrick in a trio?
-----------
i agree, it hough against newcastle last week (swapping carrick for fletcher) they played very well considering the lack of game time all three have had this season, there seemed to be a very good balance.
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