"Well we're going to have to try out some fresh grass sooner or later because Giggs and Scholes aren't going to be around forever"
----------------------------------------------
My question is, if anyone else out of the CL seeded teams (or even the top 10 in England) was playing a 37 and a 38 year old in their starting line up wouldn't you be questioning their squad depth, ambition or funds available to buy? It's not a knee jerk reaction, it's a niggle that's becoming more and more baffling as time goes on.
Our only hope in hell in Europe is playing 3 central midfielders. We won't win it or come close playing a 2 man midfield, no matter who is selected. We will just get bossed by a good passing team who crowd the midfield.
In the league, it's slightly different. A 2 man midfield 90% of the time is enough and probably the right way to go as long as Giggs isn't one of them.
Think we would all love to see the younger players given a chance, and with Clevs and Ando being 23 and 24 years old respectively this should be their time to have a chance and really fulfil their promise. Ando should atleast start more next to Carrick, we've been lacking a bit of physicality and mobility in the team in which teams such as Spurs, Everton etc have tried (and successfully) to take advantage of, and with Ando atleast he offers that strong presence who has shown he can stand up against many players, hes not weak at all.
Also i wonder what the perception of United is on the continent considering we still field Giggs, Scholes etc. An AC Milan kind of team? who persisted on holding onto Inzaghi, Nesta, Gattuso etc for a long time. Difference is, we have the younger players who i believe can step in and take over atleast.
Failing is part of life- they have to be given a chance at some point. They are 23 and 24..... Not 17/18 so in my book they are not young players at all. Can they do any worse than Giggs has recently?
This is a good point, they interchanged well, 2 of them scored and we looked very solid and inventive going forwards.
Liverpool, Galatasaray, Fulham, Everton, Saints an Spurs all had the better of us in the middle of the park.
Had Liverpool been able to finish they'd if beat us, Dembele strolled past our midfielders, Everton seemed to jut want it more, Gala walks past Carrick and Scholes as if they weren't there.
Which brings me onto Carrick, he is not protecting our centre halves, in all if the above games (bar Everyon, when he was at cb funnily enough) the opposition midfielders a d forwards have had so much space in between out defence and midfield it's scary!!!
I would never suggest that Cleverson will never work as I simply do not know, no one does, from the looks of it they could become a good pairing to be honest but in terms of the first team, no I don't believe they are as strong as Scholes and Carrick, and it seems as if SAF agrees
-------
And both you and Sir Alex are wrong. It isn't even a debate. You cannot play a midfield two that only does half of the job. Considering we have witnessed better football, a better shape and unit, more goals and unbeaten record when Cleverson have played I cannot possibly fathom how you come to this conclusion. I'll repeat it again, but if Scholes and Carrick are to be our midfield pairing then we'll finish outside the top two and trophyless.
Our only hope in hell in Europe is playing 3 central midfielders. We won't win it or come close playing a 2 man midfield, no matter who is selected. We will just get bossed by a good passing team who crowd the midfield.
-----------------
I agree with this, also. In Europe, the midfield must contain Anderson, one of Cleverley and Scholes and one of Carrick and Fletcher. This would work as they all have the attributes necessary. Form and fitness depending, of course.
Ferguson is beginning to become 50/50 with his signings. He made two marvellous signings in Buttner and Kagawa. But I felt he over-paid on Powell. He's only 18 and the highest standard he's played at is at league 1 level prior to this season.
Does that warrant a £4 million transfer fee? He may and this is may have had just as good a player in his academy.
He needed centre-backs in the summer due to Jones(Whom I don't rate, yes he's big, yes he's strong, but he's the clumsiest thing on two legs) being injured.
There is also Chris Smalling who is currently injured, he's a better player than Jones and cost almost half the amount.
What does he do? He signs Robin Van Persie. Sorry, I know, I as a Liverpool fan I can't speak, as we're short on strikers, but there is sometimes a need to prioritise.
Ferguson didn't prioritise.
All actual evidence suggests Cleverson should be given a run at the central midfield pairing. Some people on here have managed to use unfounded criticisms and ideas to claim it wouldn't work or that United are better off with other combinations.
Cleverson has NEVER failed so far and until they are shown up, they deserve to pick up where they left off.
The best midfield performance all season was against Fulham with both Anderson and Cleverley playing very well.
It's as if the current midfield is doing well.
I wouldn't play Nani or Valencia in Europe against a quality side, especially on current form. It just leaves us far too open.
---------------------------------Carrick
----------------------Anderson------Cleverley
----------Rooney-------------------------------------Kagawa
-----------------------------------RVP
That's got to be the way forward. Full backs providing the main width with a 3 man midfield and Rooney and Kagawa floating here there and everywhere. Scholes is still good for a 20-30 minute cameo too in second half. He's still a game changer even at the highest level just hasn't got 90 mins in him anymore.
I think Carrick's positioning, awareness, discipline and distribution are vital for United in Europe, his ability as a holding player helped take the clubs European record (particularly away from home) to another level.
Carrick behind Anderson and Cleverley or possibly Scholes would be ok for tough games in the CL.
Would be a great side IMO Stretford
All actual evidence suggests Cleverson should be given a run at the central midfield pairing. Some people on here have managed to use unfounded criticisms and ideas to claim it wouldn't work or that United are better off with other combinations.
Cleverson has NEVER failed so far and until they are shown up, they deserve to pick up where they left off.
The best midfield performance all season was against Fulham with both Anderson and Cleverley playing very well.
It's as if the current midfield is doing well.
They actually performed very well to a large extent against Newcastle. Cleverly played the holding role and Anderson pushed further on. Anderson isn't a holding midfielder and never was a holding midfielder.
If he is used properly and loses a bit of weight, he might turn into what was expected of him to begin with. He seems to like kebabs as much as Rooney.
Would be a great side IMO Stretford
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw enough in 25 mins on saturday when Rooney, RVP and Kagawa were linking up and causing Spurs no end of problems.
That trio could be dynamite for us with the right midfield behind them.
I'm not ruling out a midfielder in January either. We should have enough to progress from the group stages but against a Barca, Bayern or Madrid, we'd come up short IMHO.
Stretford_Ender85 (U10955)
---------
Great side. When I see sides like that I know that this squad is capable of great things, providing the correct players are utilised. Play that side in 'bigger' games and give this one a crack in the league and we're laughing:
Anderson Cleverley
Nani Rooney Kagawa
Van Persie
I agree SE, that team looks full of power and drive and more important enthusiam.
Busby
We didn't deserve to win those games?
These were the 12 games.
Bolton 3-0 H
Arsenal 2-1 A
Stoke 2-0 H
Liverpool 2-1 H
Norwich 2-1 A
Spurs 3-1 A
West Brom 2-0 H
Wolves 5-0 A
Fulham 1-0 H
Blackburn 2-0 A
QPR 2-0 H
Aston Villa 4-0 H
Now, of those 12 games i'd say we were fortunate to get a win at Norwich, played poorly in the first half at Spurs but still went 3-0 up before a Giggs error and maybe Fulham should have had a penalty but other than that it was a very impressive run of wins at some very tough grounds.
The difference between those games and this season is that we haven't had Rooney who believe it or not makes all the difference. Now he's back we'll start to fly.
I'd usually agree, he has started his season very slowly again though. On the ball he is good a ever, and I don't know it's Scholes being a year older and compensating for that, but his positioning in front the defence has been a part of our problem
Anderson Cleverley
Nani Rooney Kagawa
Van Persie
------------------------------------------------------
That'll do the job in the league and give the fans plenty to smile about in the process.
Copied the wrong thing, was meant the be one of the above comments about Carricks defensive nous.
I agree SE, that team looks full of power and drive and more important enthusiam.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we don't play something similar at the weekend, I fear we could be even further behind Chelsea and 3 behind the berties too. Newcastle are no pushovers like they used to be.
I'm no Anderson lover, but just looking at our other options, we don't seem to have many alternatives just now. Anderson and Cleverely simply have to be given a chance. Scholes should be used sensibly and effectively. Giggs should simply do what G Nev did at admit he's no longer up to it.
Look, I agree that Carrick and Cleverley would be a great midfield 3 and we may well see that but people are looking at the start of last season through rose tinted glasses and not the reasons it happened.
There was no summer tournament and most of our team was fit and Rooney (our best player in those early games) had a full pre season and started the season on fire. Young was fit, Nani was on form, we had some easy fixtures - West Brom away, Spurs at home missing Modric and yet to play a game that season and an Arsenal team who everyone knew would be beaten because of the lack of signings they'd made and coming off a home defeat to Liverpool the week before.
Chelsea were awful under AVB and we were on one of our good runs.
The biggest problem with forums like these is the lack of patience. Hundreds of articles are written between games and things are overanalysed and people haven't got a chance to defend their opinions because the players they defend aren't out there proving anyone wrong.
A fortnight is a long time in football. Look at Liverpool. Playing poorly all season and a lot of supporters were demanding Rodgers leave and then they tonk Norwich and all of a sudden he's the best thing since sliced bread.
Same with Spurs. Drawing at home to West Brom and Norwich and AVB is booed by his fans. Now he's a genius.
My point is, maybe Cleverson will start a lot of games from say, November till the end of the season, maybe Rooney coming back will turn it around, maybe Scholes will play every game this season and be amazing, maybe Fletcher will come back better than before, maybe Cleverson will get injured again.
None of us know and i'm 100% certain that none of us will be able to correctly predict what will happen and that is the fun of football
people are looking at the start of last season through rose tinted glasses and not the reasons it happened.
--------------------
The only person who does that here is you. You let your love of players blind you to what is actually best for the team. You just don't want to know what is staring you in the face. You come up with excuses and as many pedantic reasons as you can to suggest that Cleverson doesn't work. Only last week did you write an article saying how Rooney was a big difference against Newcastle, to say in the same breath that Cleverley and Anderson's performances cannot be taken seriously because it was Newcastle in the League Cup. How hypocritical is that? It's all ifs and buts with you and you just don't listen. I am 100% that if we play Carrick and Scholes every week then we will finish the season trophyless. That isn't fun at all.
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What has happened to SAF
Page 6 of 7
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posted on 1/10/12
"Well we're going to have to try out some fresh grass sooner or later because Giggs and Scholes aren't going to be around forever"
----------------------------------------------
My question is, if anyone else out of the CL seeded teams (or even the top 10 in England) was playing a 37 and a 38 year old in their starting line up wouldn't you be questioning their squad depth, ambition or funds available to buy? It's not a knee jerk reaction, it's a niggle that's becoming more and more baffling as time goes on.
posted on 1/10/12
Our only hope in hell in Europe is playing 3 central midfielders. We won't win it or come close playing a 2 man midfield, no matter who is selected. We will just get bossed by a good passing team who crowd the midfield.
In the league, it's slightly different. A 2 man midfield 90% of the time is enough and probably the right way to go as long as Giggs isn't one of them.
posted on 1/10/12
Think we would all love to see the younger players given a chance, and with Clevs and Ando being 23 and 24 years old respectively this should be their time to have a chance and really fulfil their promise. Ando should atleast start more next to Carrick, we've been lacking a bit of physicality and mobility in the team in which teams such as Spurs, Everton etc have tried (and successfully) to take advantage of, and with Ando atleast he offers that strong presence who has shown he can stand up against many players, hes not weak at all.
posted on 1/10/12
Also i wonder what the perception of United is on the continent considering we still field Giggs, Scholes etc. An AC Milan kind of team? who persisted on holding onto Inzaghi, Nesta, Gattuso etc for a long time. Difference is, we have the younger players who i believe can step in and take over atleast.
posted on 1/10/12
Failing is part of life- they have to be given a chance at some point. They are 23 and 24..... Not 17/18 so in my book they are not young players at all. Can they do any worse than Giggs has recently?
posted on 1/10/12
This is a good point, they interchanged well, 2 of them scored and we looked very solid and inventive going forwards.
posted on 1/10/12
Liverpool, Galatasaray, Fulham, Everton, Saints an Spurs all had the better of us in the middle of the park.
Had Liverpool been able to finish they'd if beat us, Dembele strolled past our midfielders, Everton seemed to jut want it more, Gala walks past Carrick and Scholes as if they weren't there.
Which brings me onto Carrick, he is not protecting our centre halves, in all if the above games (bar Everyon, when he was at cb funnily enough) the opposition midfielders a d forwards have had so much space in between out defence and midfield it's scary!!!
posted on 1/10/12
I would never suggest that Cleverson will never work as I simply do not know, no one does, from the looks of it they could become a good pairing to be honest but in terms of the first team, no I don't believe they are as strong as Scholes and Carrick, and it seems as if SAF agrees
-------
And both you and Sir Alex are wrong. It isn't even a debate. You cannot play a midfield two that only does half of the job. Considering we have witnessed better football, a better shape and unit, more goals and unbeaten record when Cleverson have played I cannot possibly fathom how you come to this conclusion. I'll repeat it again, but if Scholes and Carrick are to be our midfield pairing then we'll finish outside the top two and trophyless.
posted on 1/10/12
Our only hope in hell in Europe is playing 3 central midfielders. We won't win it or come close playing a 2 man midfield, no matter who is selected. We will just get bossed by a good passing team who crowd the midfield.
-----------------
I agree with this, also. In Europe, the midfield must contain Anderson, one of Cleverley and Scholes and one of Carrick and Fletcher. This would work as they all have the attributes necessary. Form and fitness depending, of course.
posted on 1/10/12
Ferguson is beginning to become 50/50 with his signings. He made two marvellous signings in Buttner and Kagawa. But I felt he over-paid on Powell. He's only 18 and the highest standard he's played at is at league 1 level prior to this season.
Does that warrant a £4 million transfer fee? He may and this is may have had just as good a player in his academy.
He needed centre-backs in the summer due to Jones(Whom I don't rate, yes he's big, yes he's strong, but he's the clumsiest thing on two legs) being injured.
There is also Chris Smalling who is currently injured, he's a better player than Jones and cost almost half the amount.
What does he do? He signs Robin Van Persie. Sorry, I know, I as a Liverpool fan I can't speak, as we're short on strikers, but there is sometimes a need to prioritise.
Ferguson didn't prioritise.
posted on 1/10/12
All actual evidence suggests Cleverson should be given a run at the central midfield pairing. Some people on here have managed to use unfounded criticisms and ideas to claim it wouldn't work or that United are better off with other combinations.
Cleverson has NEVER failed so far and until they are shown up, they deserve to pick up where they left off.
The best midfield performance all season was against Fulham with both Anderson and Cleverley playing very well.
It's as if the current midfield is doing well.
posted on 1/10/12
I wouldn't play Nani or Valencia in Europe against a quality side, especially on current form. It just leaves us far too open.
---------------------------------Carrick
----------------------Anderson------Cleverley
----------Rooney-------------------------------------Kagawa
-----------------------------------RVP
That's got to be the way forward. Full backs providing the main width with a 3 man midfield and Rooney and Kagawa floating here there and everywhere. Scholes is still good for a 20-30 minute cameo too in second half. He's still a game changer even at the highest level just hasn't got 90 mins in him anymore.
posted on 1/10/12
I think Carrick's positioning, awareness, discipline and distribution are vital for United in Europe, his ability as a holding player helped take the clubs European record (particularly away from home) to another level.
Carrick behind Anderson and Cleverley or possibly Scholes would be ok for tough games in the CL.
posted on 1/10/12
Would be a great side IMO Stretford
posted on 1/10/12
All actual evidence suggests Cleverson should be given a run at the central midfield pairing. Some people on here have managed to use unfounded criticisms and ideas to claim it wouldn't work or that United are better off with other combinations.
Cleverson has NEVER failed so far and until they are shown up, they deserve to pick up where they left off.
The best midfield performance all season was against Fulham with both Anderson and Cleverley playing very well.
It's as if the current midfield is doing well.
They actually performed very well to a large extent against Newcastle. Cleverly played the holding role and Anderson pushed further on. Anderson isn't a holding midfielder and never was a holding midfielder.
If he is used properly and loses a bit of weight, he might turn into what was expected of him to begin with. He seems to like kebabs as much as Rooney.
posted on 1/10/12
Would be a great side IMO Stretford
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw enough in 25 mins on saturday when Rooney, RVP and Kagawa were linking up and causing Spurs no end of problems.
That trio could be dynamite for us with the right midfield behind them.
I'm not ruling out a midfielder in January either. We should have enough to progress from the group stages but against a Barca, Bayern or Madrid, we'd come up short IMHO.
posted on 1/10/12
Stretford_Ender85 (U10955)
---------
Great side. When I see sides like that I know that this squad is capable of great things, providing the correct players are utilised. Play that side in 'bigger' games and give this one a crack in the league and we're laughing:
Anderson Cleverley
Nani Rooney Kagawa
Van Persie
posted on 1/10/12
I agree SE, that team looks full of power and drive and more important enthusiam.
posted on 1/10/12
Busby
We didn't deserve to win those games?
These were the 12 games.
Bolton 3-0 H
Arsenal 2-1 A
Stoke 2-0 H
Liverpool 2-1 H
Norwich 2-1 A
Spurs 3-1 A
West Brom 2-0 H
Wolves 5-0 A
Fulham 1-0 H
Blackburn 2-0 A
QPR 2-0 H
Aston Villa 4-0 H
Now, of those 12 games i'd say we were fortunate to get a win at Norwich, played poorly in the first half at Spurs but still went 3-0 up before a Giggs error and maybe Fulham should have had a penalty but other than that it was a very impressive run of wins at some very tough grounds.
The difference between those games and this season is that we haven't had Rooney who believe it or not makes all the difference. Now he's back we'll start to fly.
I'd usually agree, he has started his season very slowly again though. On the ball he is good a ever, and I don't know it's Scholes being a year older and compensating for that, but his positioning in front the defence has been a part of our problem
posted on 1/10/12
Anderson Cleverley
Nani Rooney Kagawa
Van Persie
------------------------------------------------------
That'll do the job in the league and give the fans plenty to smile about in the process.
posted on 1/10/12
Copied the wrong thing, was meant the be one of the above comments about Carricks defensive nous.
posted on 1/10/12
I agree SE, that team looks full of power and drive and more important enthusiam.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we don't play something similar at the weekend, I fear we could be even further behind Chelsea and 3 behind the berties too. Newcastle are no pushovers like they used to be.
I'm no Anderson lover, but just looking at our other options, we don't seem to have many alternatives just now. Anderson and Cleverely simply have to be given a chance. Scholes should be used sensibly and effectively. Giggs should simply do what G Nev did at admit he's no longer up to it.
posted on 1/10/12
Look, I agree that Carrick and Cleverley would be a great midfield 3 and we may well see that but people are looking at the start of last season through rose tinted glasses and not the reasons it happened.
There was no summer tournament and most of our team was fit and Rooney (our best player in those early games) had a full pre season and started the season on fire. Young was fit, Nani was on form, we had some easy fixtures - West Brom away, Spurs at home missing Modric and yet to play a game that season and an Arsenal team who everyone knew would be beaten because of the lack of signings they'd made and coming off a home defeat to Liverpool the week before.
Chelsea were awful under AVB and we were on one of our good runs.
The biggest problem with forums like these is the lack of patience. Hundreds of articles are written between games and things are overanalysed and people haven't got a chance to defend their opinions because the players they defend aren't out there proving anyone wrong.
A fortnight is a long time in football. Look at Liverpool. Playing poorly all season and a lot of supporters were demanding Rodgers leave and then they tonk Norwich and all of a sudden he's the best thing since sliced bread.
Same with Spurs. Drawing at home to West Brom and Norwich and AVB is booed by his fans. Now he's a genius.
My point is, maybe Cleverson will start a lot of games from say, November till the end of the season, maybe Rooney coming back will turn it around, maybe Scholes will play every game this season and be amazing, maybe Fletcher will come back better than before, maybe Cleverson will get injured again.
None of us know and i'm 100% certain that none of us will be able to correctly predict what will happen and that is the fun of football
posted on 1/10/12
Carrick and Cleverson
posted on 1/10/12
people are looking at the start of last season through rose tinted glasses and not the reasons it happened.
--------------------
The only person who does that here is you. You let your love of players blind you to what is actually best for the team. You just don't want to know what is staring you in the face. You come up with excuses and as many pedantic reasons as you can to suggest that Cleverson doesn't work. Only last week did you write an article saying how Rooney was a big difference against Newcastle, to say in the same breath that Cleverley and Anderson's performances cannot be taken seriously because it was Newcastle in the League Cup. How hypocritical is that? It's all ifs and buts with you and you just don't listen. I am 100% that if we play Carrick and Scholes every week then we will finish the season trophyless. That isn't fun at all.
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